ogg prak: xiph.org's solution to the .ogm vs. .ogg problem

[MaTTeR]

Maybe some clarification is needed from Neo before the thread is closed. This is the first I've heard that Neo Neko actually coded Prak. Might be a misunderstanding here but I'm sure he can clear it up.

[spyder]

Koepi,

If you would read Neo's post you will see that he didn't code the app, he says he pitched the idea and a friend coded it. I have also read somewhere else that it was not him but another well respected member of this community.

[Oxygen]

I'm afraid i'll not get many friends with that but some *people* allready choose way before this sensless fight about ogg and ogm how to make windows launch the ogg media files with the apropriate file player:
*they* simply rename the ogg into .AVI, because it is usually the same player that plays avis and ogg media (if the appropriate filter is installed)

so stop fighting about that, you can't stop people wanting to *hack* or tune a product (beeing a open source, a free closed source soft, or a licensed product). Remember that pple here are not the very commun user that use windows with the option 'hide extentions of know file types', don't care how you encode DVD and put them into a ogg file, but simply leech things from smart people ...

this fight is ugly sensless imHo

[Neo Neko]

I am still not 100% sure ATM what you are upset with Keopi. Are you meaning OGM the file name extension or are you reffering to Tobias's work as an extension of OGG that you are calling OGM? In terms of the file name extension there is no problem. People may use the extension of their choice. I think this is what most people are getting from this. As for Tobias's work I have not seen anywhere that they plan not to support it. They only made the announcement on the "file name extension". Blacksun and I expressed the desire and need to Emmett to work Tobias's specs into the finished OGG specs if possible or to cooperate so that he can impliment the finalized Xiph version. If the final Xiph version is not compatable it is not the end of the world either. We could continue to use Tobias's version. Or since the differences between the files should be minimal a utill could be easliy written to convert between the two of them. If Emmett and the Xiph crew can use what Tobias has done thus far they will not simply discard it. Whatever the outcome There will be a future for all OGM and OGG files. Theora will be defined as an official OGG stream. Perhaps Tobias's Directshow like interface could be kept for non-official OGG streams like Divx 3.x/4.x/5.x, Xvid, AC3, MP3, etc. Nothing has been solidified here yet and it is a bit to early to be making these judgements. Xiph has shown to be very open for good input from outside sources. Many people have joined the team this way. The biggest obsticle here at this point is that Tobias has not released the specs on what he has done. He has hinted that he would once he got it done. Now is the time though and he just got back from holliday.

Originally posted by Koepi
DXN wouldn't stop us from naming .divxs into .whatever. They simply can't. BUT they will never support it.

Xiphophorus will not stop you either. They say you are free to choose.

Originally posted by Koepi
Emmet, you told us you would _really_ try to make a point there for us, trying to make ogm more official.
But it _seems_ at least to me that you didn't. (This isn't meant as offense. This might as well be "you didn't succeed".)

Keopi.... Did you write him the email detailing why the extension was nescessary? How many of us here did write emails? He did say he would give us considderation. But did everyone take advantage of that?

Originally posted by Koepi
Neo, I'm not angry or anything at you because you coded ogg-prak. I even appreciate it. Only thing went wrong there was that you could've told the public so noone uses *.ogm and thus produces unsupported ogg files.

I did not code Prak. Someone else did. It was simply an idea I had. Actually at this point Prak is specific support for Tobias's multimedia files from Xiph. There is no 100% finished official Xiph specs out on OGG yet so their possible different implimentation is not even an issue ATM. Prak looks at OGGs. If it sees vanilla OGGs it opens them in your audio player. If it sees Tobias's OGGs it opens them in your video player.

Originally posted by Koepi
I think this is the last post necessary in this thread. No need to get further upset. Let's all calm down. This issue will solve itself with the time that comes. It just has cost some people many uneccessary efforts.

Hopefully this will REALLY settle down now,

Regards,
Koepi

You are right things have gotten a bit hot. Either I missed something or there was a misunderstanding. Either way lets work with Xiphophorus to resolve any issues that crop up instead of against them. I know they will listen man. And I know you have good input for them. ;)

[The People's Elbow]

Hey, these days Vorbis 1.0 was released which increased the codecs quality and the newest XviD build including the new curve treatment seems to have improved, either! ( At least for me! )
Let's party for that, encode even more A/V files in our favoured format(s) and stop fighting "forumfights" ;)

greets, Elbow!

[BlackSun]

I don't see the point why Prak is an insult, there are people wanting to use .ogg only, Xiph offered a solution for them...

If you want Tobias' point of view, he don't care if you use Ogg or Ogm, he really don't care ! And on the top most he is thinking about releasing Ogg Prak with the OggDS filters...

[robUx4]

Originally posted by tanksimpson
@robUx4:
I'm pretty sure what they mean is that the files contain or are referenced by some kind of "metadata" that tells the OS useful information about what's in the file and what should be done with it when the user clicks on it. For example: you could have a bunch of .avi files, some with DivX+mp3 and some with Divx+AC3, and you could have some metadata in the filesystem that told the OS which ones to open up with which player. Windows, unfortunately, does not have this ability, although I think Mac OS X does. Microsoft is supposedly addressing this issue with Longhorn (Windows 2004?), and a lot more! Apparently the Longhorn filesystem is going to be an outright database with all the power and flexibility that implies.

According to Ingo Ralf Blum NTFS can store meta data. But unfortunaltely Windows don't use it (AFAIK).
Also I know Mac OS and BeOS handle these meta data, but I really wonder if Linux does too (the newer filesystems can, but I think it's not used). I should have a look at how KDE does this...

Also when you download a file from an FTP, how do you create these meta data ? If not from the file extension...

[BlackSun]

Btw I am the one who wrote Ogg Prak, so now everybody now who is the mysterious author...

[Emmettfish]

Koepi says:

"Ok, now that really everybody has proved in this thread to be able to get that upset that he forgets about all manners (yeah, I did - but most of you as well), we should put this matter aside and draw the conclusions. Xiph has Ogg Prak and will only support ogg and ogg-prak."

I think a lot of this thread starting by you making assumptions and sharing those assumptions with the masses, no matter how wrong they were. Will we support .ogg? Yes. Will we support Ogg Prak? Yes. Will we officially support other file extensions? Maybe. We haven't given a definitive word yet, and you're assuming *way* too much.

"Emmet, you told us you would _really_ try to make a point there for us, trying to make ogm more official. But it _seems_ at least to me that you didn't. (This isn't meant as offense. This might as well be "you didn't succeed".)"

What did you feel the appropriate timeframe on this was? Am I still allowed to be undecided, or have I failed simply because I have not yet made a definitive answer? *You* have decided that because Ogg Prak is in the works, that we have said 'No .ogm.' That's an incorrect assumption.

Ogg Prak is not our 'answer to the .ogm issue.' Ogg Prak is a way for people that want to use our current naming convention for their files, on a platform that doesn't play well with invasive filetyping. There's a difference.

"I think this is the last post necessary in this thread. No need to get further upset. Let's all calm down. This issue will solve itself with the time that comes. It just has cost some people many uneccessary efforts."

No, the last post necessary in this thread is your apology for maligning myself and my co-workers, without a shred of research or even asking what the real story was. You've started with the attacks like 'They don't care and don't really listen to arguments' and 'Xiph are bad people, period.'

I have bent over backwards, I have invested a lot of time in talking to people about ogg file extensions (and nearly every other facet of what we do). I've made my E-mail address and my phone number available to anyone who has wanted to talk. I'll even post on web-boards, even if I have to put up with ham-fisted assumptions and insults from people like you.

If we ever reach a state where we are uncaring, and we completely refuse to discuss what's going on, and we're unwilling to listen to other people's opinions, it'll be comments like yours that force us to that point.

Emmett Plant
CEO, Xiph.org Foundation

[Koepi]

Emmett,

you get my sincere apologies.
Not only for saying "bye" to xiph in a very upset mood and with some early conclusions (maybe you aren't bad people). Not only for insulting you and your co-workers.

I went to your official IRC channel and got replies that you well know (from your co-workers).

Which really means that most of the people there want ogm "to die".

I'll simply step back from this matter. I'm still really upset. You _know_ my point and don't even try to understand it.

Koepi.

[sysKin]

Hi

I feel a bit stupid writing post to this thread, because I don't like this thread at all. I'm sure you know why.

However, I am writing it because I have a proposition for you.
First:
Emmettfish wrote, many times, that he doesn't care about what extension we use (if I got it right). I think that we really should respect this. If he, as well as Xiph in general, don't want to "force" or "encourage" any extension other than .ogg, than it's fine. OK. We can't, and shouldn't try to, change their mind.
Second:
Emmettfish wrote, many times, that we can do what we want to. As enlightening and revealing as it is, he _is right_ and we should exactly do it.

So, if we can do what we want, the question is: what we want?
My proposition starts here:
If we want a standard on multiple extensions, to avoid possible (inevitable imho) confusion in the future, then WE SHOULD CREATE IT. NOW. Here in this forum. Of course I'm not happy about doing it without Xiph's blessing and support, but it's much better than complaining, isn't it?
Please tell me what you think. If you agree, please start new thread (without words like 'versus' or 'problem' please). We have some questions we have to answer, such as:
- do we want two extensions, one for audio and one for a/v ? That's easy and could be enough. OR we want one extension for each possible stream? That would be much more informative.
- .ogg is an extension for ogg stream in general. I think that it's needed - for example if you intercept a broadcasted stream, you just use .ogg for storing it. Prak is a very usefull application for dealing with it. Agreed?
- .ogg is an extension used for vorbis. That _would be_ OK, but .ogg is also used for ogg in general. So we have two uses for one extension. What do we do about it?
- do we really want 3-letter extension? Perhaps we could make everyone satisfied by makeing some kind of ".ogg_a" for audio? (or .ogg_v for vorbis, or completely different way?)
- more. always more ;)

Now, the best part is, that if anyone is not interested in extensions at all, than he simply shouldn't answer to it.
What do you think?

[cofferscuffs]

@sysKin

you obviously havent bothered to read anything, and juging by what you just said... you have no clue whatsoever, because if you did you'd know that ogm already exsists. theres no need to create new ones :P

id suggest you click on that button which is handly labeled "search" and read up on ogm...

[Emmettfish]

Koepi says:

"I went to your official IRC channel and got replies that you well know (from your co-workers)."

I don't know what was said, and from whom. I'm interested to know who said what, and which of those people are on my staff. I'm willing to bet good money that no one on my staff was insulting.

Not everyone on 'our official IRC channel' works for Xiph. There are ninety-seven people logged into it at the present time. Two of them are Xiph.org staff.

"Which really means that most of the people there want ogm "to die"."

If they do, they're certainly entitled to that opinion, in the same way that you're entitled to yours.

"I'll simply step back from this matter. I'm still really upset. You _know_ my point and don't even try to understand it."

What is your point? You've failed to mention it. I've seen a lot of insults and name-calling, but you haven't told me what your problem is. How can I help you unless you're willing to discuss your problem? I'm here, and I've been listening, just like I have been the entire time. I'm quite interested to know what you need.

Emmett Plant
CEO, Xiph.org Foundation

[DaveEL]

Why prak will not work (as i understand the prak solution ill wait till i have my hands on a copy but i cant see any other way it can work):

Ok so i install Prak and everything works fine
then i decide to install something else that plays ogg say winamp
winamp when i install it overwrites the prak association now my movies play in winamp

Even worse if i let winamp (i install with default options) winamp will watch those associations and restore itsself so even if i install prak later/reinstall prak winamp will notice and reset it again.

And if prak watches the association then winamp and prak will keep switching between the two different assoications.

Ok so winamp may be updated to support the prak association but that means
a) every app which does this needs to be changed
b) every app needs to include prak incase its not yet installed.

ogm does not require anything to be changed in any of the players that im aware of and requires no additional software.



I've seen a lot of insults and name-calling, but you haven't told me what your problem is. How can I help you unless you're willing to discuss your problem? I'm here, and I've been listening, just like I have been the entire time. I'm quite interested to know what you need.


My problem is i want a solution that will work and im afraid prak is not it. If prak does indeed solve the problem then i see no reason to not use .ogg but as i believe it wont and we already have a solution which does solve the problem i believe we should still use .ogm. If the problem with using .ogm is its not clearly marked as an ogg (this is the only argument against .ogm ive seen please if there is another reason do tell us what your problem with .ogm is) an alternative extention could be used .oggmedia (that is after all what .ogm means) or .oggvideo (.oggv?) would also work any extention other then .ogg works i have no problem with changing (and i cant see how it could cause a problem)

DaveEL

[DeXT]

The problem with OGM and the #Vorbis people is not the extension... most people will use the one they feel more comfortable with, so this is not an issue. The problem with OGM is that it was made outside Xiph, and thus it's a "hack".

So when I said "tolerate OGM" I was talking about an attitude change (from #Vorbis people, not Xiph). I can understand it to some point since it's closed source. But the fact is, there IS a problem: people want video on their OGGs. And currently OGM (Tobias' OGG extension) is the only working solution available.

Perhaps if you adopt the format extensions made by Tobias (if any) everyone would be happy? And I'm not talking about the file extension.

I know Theora is in the works. But it would be desirable to make OGM (the format) a "standard" one, so everyone feels it will be supported in future.

[Taranli Maren]

OGG, OGM, they're both OGG containers. This whole discussion is simply infighting, and doesn't do anything but weaken OGG/OGM's position as a stable, flexible alternative to AVI.

[DaveEL]

Originally posted by DeXT
The problem with OGM and the #Vorbis people is not the extension... most people will use the one they feel more comfortable with, so this is not an issue.


Its the only one prak solves as far i can and see and as i said before it doesnt do a perfect job of solving it.

The problem with OGM is that it was made outside Xiph, and thus it's a "hack".


If this is the case why is prak being written if OGM is a hack they dont want to support should they not try to distance themselves from it but the prak solution means Ogg Media (OGM as a format does not exist its called Ogg media) will be seen as .ogg by eveyone who uses them and so is assoicated (by users not windows :) ) with "real" (Xiph) ogg.

DaveEL

[DaveEL]

Originally posted by MaTTeR a while back im reading this thread in reverse order at best :)
Has anyone contacted Emmett? He clearly stated that he wanted to be the main contact should we have any concerns regarding the OGM extension, this would cause less confusion.

No i did not contace Emmett because my point (burried behind the fact i (and lots of other people) went a bit OTT (and i made a stupid decision to post after i got back from the pub one night so i was a little drunk :) - sorry ) ) was put forward in the last discussion. That and the whole point of using this forum is for discussion between many the people not with just one. ok i see the advantage that we will have less flames but thats what the stike system was put in place for to keep people in line, in both the old thread and this new one probably should have got (possibly did get ) strikes (mine included). Hopefully my point is stated clearer in this thread.

DaveEL

[Emmettfish]

DeXT says:

"So when I said "tolerate OGM" I was talking about an attitude change (from #Vorbis people, not Xiph). I can understand it to some point since it's closed source. But the fact is, there IS a problem: people want video on their OGGs. And currently OGM (Tobias' OGG extension) is the only working solution available."

Then you really need to talk to #vorbis people, not me. I do not control their thoughts or dictate their actions.

"Perhaps if you adopt the format extensions made by Tobias (if any) everyone would be happy? And I'm not talking about the file extension."

Maybe you don't see how adding extensions to our open specification based on output from a closed-source application would lead to complete and total madness. I do.

"I know Theora is in the works. But it would be desirable to make OGM (the format) a "standard" one, so everyone feels it will be supported in future."

Desirable to you, maybe. Desirable to a lot of people, certainly. Desirable to everyone? Probably not. The only way everyone will be happy is if they get to make their own choices, and that's what I've been trying to say for the past two days.

We are very much in the early stages of working with video in the ogg container. Making a hard and fast decision about any of it at this point is probably a tremendously poor idea.

If people have something that works for them right now, and they have faith that it will work for them in the future, they have my blessing to adopt it to the fullest extent that they can.

I'm really, really tired of beating this dead horse.

Emmett Plant
CEO, Xiph.org Foundation

[MaTTeR]

Emmett's right, this is a dead horse and this thread can't possiblly be serving for any good now.

Time to close?