Canopus Procoder Demo Now Available

[tyee]

On their website. Create account, then go to support - driver downloads. 5 min. time limit.

Need to compare it to CCE I think.


tyee

[Arky]

Thanks for the link I'll check it out. However, Canopus ProCoder is not meant as a competitor to CCE - it's meant to compete with Discreet's MediaCleaner. I do not believe it will get even CLOSE to CCESP, but I would be as happy as the rest of us if it actually proved to be a contender - I think it will be the best option for creating a VARIETY of formats, and FROM a Variety of different formats, which, of course, TMPGEnc and CCESP cannot do. The main benefits of Procoder over MediaCleaner appear to be 1)increased speed, 2)increased stability (well, I'm assuming this, since MediaCleaner is unstable at times, and Canopus are famous for the stability of their products), 3)Procoder can more flexibly produce consistent CONCATENATED streams from several DISsimilar source files.

Anyway, thanks again - I'm off to the Canopus site! :)


Arky ;o)

[Arky]

From the Canopus site itself
( h**p://www.canopuscorp.com/drivers_procoder.php ):

**********************************************************************

ProCoderDemo_1_00.exe

Released 06/20/2002
Size 14.8 MB


ProCoder Demo v1.00
This is ProCoder Demo v1.00. You will need to have both DirectX 8.1 and Quicktime 5 installed on your computer for it to run.

Differences between the demo and the retail version:

No MPEG decoding

30-day trial period

Watermark

5 minutes output limit

**********************************************************************

Thanks again, Tyee :)


Arky ;o)

[tyee]

Hi Arky
Have you tried it out yet? I'm going to in the next day or two. Let us know what you think about the quality.

tyee

[tyee]

I'm trying it out now and I'm getting only about 3fps on my P3-800 using VFAPI. Too slow for me but the program has lots of nice options - like deinterlacing, filters for cropping etc, aspect ratio. It won't open an avs file unfortunatly.

tyee

[Sequoyan]

Procoder is intended to compete directly with CCE.

Reviews I've read place it slightly ahead of CCE in both speed and quality.

It has far more functionality as well. It does a lot of MediaCleaner like stuff on top of its MPEG-2 encoding.

http://www.canopuscow.net/index.php?forumid=6

there's a link to the official ProCoder forum where you can read many people's comparisons between procoder and CCE.

[easy2Bcheesy]

Another interesting aspect of ProCoder is that it handles NTSC-PAL conversions (and the other way around, I believe). Canopus have another product that does this, but it requires the Canopus DV codec. ProCoder (and the demo) lets you use any Windows codec.

I've just tried it out and I have to say that the quality isn't bad at all. It's not enough to stop me sending my DV tapes to a professional facility for standards conversion on Snell and Wilcox's £100,000 Alchemist PH.C set-up, but it's easily the best consumer level NTSC-PAL converter I've seen and a million times better than trying to do the job in Premiere or After Effects.

If the MPEG2 encoding is good, I'd say that this is a very strong product for $699.

Nice.

[Deepa DvD]

Interesting.... I wanted to know about the pal-NTSC conversion.Lets say if you capture a pal video using a ntsc (super) VCR, and then you convert it.Will it work that way? or am I completely goin wrong? Or is it just lets say I capture NTSC (using NTSC VCR) and capture that then encode that to Pal to author to a dvd-r. right?
Thanks!;)

[Arky]

I have the demo installed, but it won't run till I install QT5 - I'm on a 56k connection until BT get their arses into gear and ASL enable my local exchange, so downloading big files (ProCoder included) is a real chore!!

Will report back when I do.

regarding the CCESP competitiveness, this, I must admit, surprises me very much. I remain guarded until I see results for myself!!!

i would, however, agree that if it does stand up to comparison with CCESP, it represents superb value for money...


Arky ;o)

[easy2Bcheesy]

Originally posted by Deepa DvD
Or is it just lets say I capture NTSC (using NTSC VCR) and capture that then encode that to Pal to author to a dvd-r. right?
Thanks!;)


You're right here. You need a NTSC source and capture board set to capture NTSC footage. Then once you have your AVI, ProCoder will convert it into a PAL AVI file.

I've run some more tests on this and it seems to have problems with the codecs used in the Matrox Digisuite... bad shimmering on vertical movement. So I exported the Matrox AVI into an uncompressed AVI and set ProCoder to work on that. The result? A near faultless NTSC to PAL conversion. 95% as good as the Alchemist based on the test so far. I am seriously astounded by the quality and will be doing much more in-depth tests over the next few weeks.

Just for this function alone, ProCoder is astonishing value at $699.

[auenf]

looking at the specs it is more than a mpeg encoder, the system convertor as mentioned before (which i imagine is basically the old program integrated in it), but the one thing that it seems to support over CCE for input files is AVI's with any DirectShow codec. export a DV avi from premiere and try to use it in CCE, no go? will work in pro coder ;)

Enf...

[easy2Bcheesy]

Just an update - I've converted more NTSC-PAL footage. Conversion is still remarkable given the price point but on fast moving footage (eg the trackside camera views on Formula One races) the frame-blending isn't that hot at all. And converted files seem to lose one or two frames every minute. Guess I'm still awaiting the perfect software NTSC-PAL converter, even if ProCoder is a good 65% of the way there.

[auenf]

Originally posted by easy2Bcheesy
...but on fast moving footage (eg the trackside camera views on Formula One races) the frame-blending isn't that hot at all...

uhh, so the panning is jumpy?

Enf...

[Arky]

I'm getting extremely jumpy results encoding PAL Dv-footage (whether it's captured in MainConcept DV204 codec (VFW), or just plain old M$ DV-AVI). I haven't worked out why, just yet, as I've only had time to try a few permutations. I have altered field settings but to no avail - very strange. I am, however, inclined to attribute blame to myself, rather than the encoder, at least for the time being.

That aside, on the quality front things look promising, but I must say I have NOT, repeat NOT, seen anything SO FAR that looks like getting even remotely close to CCESP's abilities. Of course this may change once I've had longer to learn it's foibles.

One thing I have noted, which I find intensely irritating, is that the approximate time readout, or "ETA", till completion of encode is an absolutely absurd state of affairs - you might be led to believe, by the ETA readout, that the encoder is doing a pretty fast job. This is until you realise that it bears no resemblance to the real end of the job!! I'm sick of seeing:

"source finished. Flushing internal Media Buffers. This can take a few minutes..."

and finding that this takes at least a quarter of the time it took to complete the ETA portion of the encode. In my eyes, an ETA should damn-well INCLUDE any "media buffer flushing", as, te way things stand, the encoder is just downright misleading.

Having voiced that one gripe, I will be persevering with the encoder for a few days yet, since I believe there must be some hidden talent in this piece of code - why else are people likening it to CCESP..?


Arky ;o)

[Sequoyan]

With the MPEG-2 setting on "mastering quality" the result is reported to match (and many say exceed) the quality of CCE.

I'm just passing on info that I've found elsewhere. I've only played with it for a few minutes.

Most of my info about Procoder comes from the canopus Procoder forum (link in thread above)

[Arky]

WELL, I've had an interesting afternoon. I've finally got my new desktop PC up and running, and I've been putting TMPGEnc plus 2.52, CCE-SP 2.62, and Canopus ProCoder through their paces with some DV material (MainConcept DV204 codec, firewire capture). Haven't done any tests with ripped RGB DVD source files as yet. All encodes were 2-pass VBR, max 8000kbps / 7000kbps average / min 1000kbps, 720x576 PAL Interlaced.

TMPGEnc on "High Quality" motion search accuracy.

ProCoder on "Mastering Quality"

CCESP - well, is there anything ELSE on this encoder, OTHER than "high quality"??!! ;)


My system is 2.26Ghz P4b / 1Gb PC3000 DDRAM, and, encoding a 14second DV AVI, I got the following results (briefly):

Time taken:

TMPGEnc - 2:14

CCE-SP - 0:25

ProCoder - 1:59


So, CinemaCraft's speed is, as always, absolutely #AWESOME!# :eek:


What was more interesting though, was the quality comparisons.

As we all know, TMPGEnc has come on leaps and bounds, and had always been a decent encoder. However, my results demonstrate (subjectively) that TMPGEnc #STILL# has a disadvantage on Motion searching (but, to be fair, the differences are less marked than they used to be). By this, I mean that where there exists a significant degree of motion, the picture tends to be more "noisy" in that region, with TMPGEnc, because it's motion search algorithm does not so successfully allocate more bitrate to the high motion problem area.

That aside, there was REMARKABLY LITTLE difference between all three encoders, on the quality front!! I COULD SEE differences, but they were all EXCELLENT, and I would be happy to use the results from any of them, with confidence, pride, and satisfaction.

In conclusion, ProCoder DOES (in my opinion, and with the DV footage I tried) match CCE-SP, and behind these two, TMPGEnc follows very closely.


SO, the MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION is: "Do CinemaCraft need to be worried about Canopus's latest offering??"

Well, yes, and no...

For businesses which need to encode piles and piles of footage, the answer is "No",because ProCoder is simply #BLOWN AWAY# by CCE-SP's majestic speed.

However, if only reasonable amounts of encoding are required, and time is not of paramount importance...well, "yes", CinemaCraft DO run the risk of losing sales!! $600 vs $2000 makes it difficult to justify the $1400 difference for those businesses and individuals who can accomodate the 4-times-longer it takes Canopus to encode in comparison to CCE-SP. Furthermore, consider the fact that I was using the "Mastering Quality" setting in ProCoder - the "high Quality" setting may prove to offer quality very close, and with a big saving in encoding time.

With the release of ProCoder, ProSumer MPEG encoding just shifted up a gear-

@ Cinemacraft - you still rule the roost, :devil:

@ Canopus - congratulations lads, you've really done yourself credit with ProCoder -- it's great quality, very flexible, and excellent value :sly:


Arky ;o)

[dvdguy_2002]

Maybe a stupid question, but here it comes
Can procoder be used in place of rempeg2 ?

[Arky]

well yes, it can, but only in the sense of re-encoding as you would if you used Cinemacraft, but then at that rate you might just as well use Cinemacraft...

ReMPEG is a very unique animal, and personally, much as I do admire it, I'd be inclined to go for the higher quality option of Cinemacraft or ProCoder. The choice, as they say, is yours!


Arky ;o)

[dvdguy_2002]

So, would CCE and/or ProCoder accept .m2v file as an input source
and give an output again .m2v ?

[easy2Bcheesy]

Nice post Arky - nice to see you aren't using your PII laptop any more! :)

[mb1]

The full version accepts mpeg input - not the demo.

I did some tests too and procoder does a very good job but has some red shifts ...

Original picture
http://members.s2u.org/hobby/mb1svcd/newimage/goliath_original.jpg

Click the links as long as they are not validated by a moderator.

ProCoder 'fast'
http://members.s2u.org/hobby/mb1svcd/newimage/goliath_can_fast.jpg

ProCoder 'mastering quality'
http://members.s2u.org/hobby/mb1svcd/newimage/goliath_can_mastering.jpg

Look at the 'red shifts' ... don´t know how to express it exactly.

But let me say in my tests encoding speed made 'ProCoder' unusable.
Encoded 2:24 min DV.avi to 720x576 mpg with avg 6.000 kbps max 8.000 kbps (so no resizing, no filters) and it took with 'fast setting' 8:55 min (3.7x realtime) and with 'mastering setting' 3 h (75x realtime) on an athlon xp 1800+ (!! ).

So under speed concerns completely unusable.

About quality concerns let me be fair and say that these 'red shifts' are only visible in some frames (so maybe not that big deal - but should be mentioned).

Uuppsss, forgot to mention encoding setting was of course 2pass VBR.

[dvdguy_2002]

Thankx a bunch for the reply mb1 !

From what I see, ProCoder is a disaster.

Keep away from it or ruin your footage.

Regards.

[Arky]

Interesting findings, you have there, MB1. What a pity. Nevertheless, I still think ProCoder has much to commend it, and I hope Canopus will be refining and updating it as time goes by, one would hope to include resolution of this "red-shift" problem, as you put it.

I did some further tests, and I must say that speed increases quite dramatically with settings OTHER THAN "Mastering Quality", and I was pleasantly surprised to see that the quality doesn't drop too drastically.

I still think it's good value.


Arky ;o)


P.S., assuming that the Canopus team do not read Doom9's forum's (yeah, I know - they'd be foolish not to - we could teach them a thing or two, eh? lol ;) ), are you going to point Canopus towards your results, MB1? I'm sure they would find the feedback useful, and perhaps a patch would be more likely to be forthcoming.

[mb1]

Hmm, let me see, maybe I give them some 'hints' :D

I´m reading also in Canopus german forum about ProCoders qualities (and non-qualities) but I´m not writing there atm.

There is a patch already out (but only for full version not for demo) which gives more speed and better quality.
But the users say that cce and tmpeg quality is superior even after the update patch.

The developers state that in all their tests ProCoder was better than cce and tmpeg :o

Atm I believe the users are right :p

[ninja.rogue]

I have tested the demo version 1.0 of this encoding software, with 5' (maximum available) of DV interlaced file, very noisy.
I can appreciate the filters - a lot of them, quite effective - but the final quality of the mpeg file is still a bit inferior to Tmpgenc, using noise reduction filter from the latter.
I must state that encoding time is quite different, because encoding with Procoder took 6,5x with highest quality and gaussian blur filter enabled (very heavy filter), and encoding with Tmpgenc took 25x with noise reduction enabled, CQ100 and highest quality.
My specs are P4 1.9 with 512mb Rambus samsung pc800
Indeed, encoding with Tmpgenc takes too much, but soon will switch to dual Athlon
:cool:

[mb1]

Don´t compare speed with different filters set.

Tmpegs noise reduction filter especially is very very slow. For a true speed comparison don´t resize and don´t filter (and don´t frameserve).

And don´t compare 'highest quality' setting in ProCoder (mastering is even higher) with 'highest quality' setting in Tmpeg. That are "two different shoes" ;)

[xiaNaix]

mb1, do you have the encoder tests on your website in English anywhere? I've used a translation program to view them and the information is VERY interesting. You should consider doing English language versions as well. :D

[Arky]

Interesting - I will keep an interest in ProCoder, but won't consider buying it until the above issues have been ironed out. If Canopus DO iron them out, then I will consider ProCoder because it is sensibly (although not cheaply, by any means) priced.

Unfortunately, the software update is only downloadable by fully-registered users. I am certainly not going to buy something before it is coded properly, so it would be in their best interests to "fix" the demo version as well, or there is absolutely no point in providing a demo for evaluation in the first place, IS there?!? :eek: :confused: :rolleyes:


Arky ;o)

[xiaNaix]

Has anyone experienced problems with the... um... "fix" :devil: ... from UP7 to make the demo into full? It did seem to remove the limitations the first few times I used it but later, when I tried to do an audio only encode, the 5 min. restriction reappeared.

I've given up on it anyway due to the speed (or lack thereof) and am sticking with the tried and true CCE 2.5

[benf2]

Results seemed good for the test footage, but it seems very slow. It started off good then slowed to a craw telling me 39hrs to do a 2hr movie....CCE took 1hr 45min. Anyone else experiencing this snail pace?

[Arky]

Version 1.02 now out (thanks to Oleg for the 'heads-up')

Released 07/17/2002
Size 14.8 MB

Info:

http://www.canopus.com/ppm_procoder.htm

Demo D/L:

http://www.canopuscorp.com/dl-driver/dl_procoderdemo.php


Arky ;o)

[m3taPT]

dumb question: i wanted to try the canopus procoder to test the dvd re-encoding, but it cant open neither vob, nor d2v. whats the best way then, to test it? i would like to use something directly from the original extracted vobs. is demuxing the m2v from dvd decrypter a good choice?

thanks in advance.

[mb1]

Simply make a vfapi-pseudo-avi from your .d2v and feed that into ProCoder.

1.03 demo was released and gone again from canopus website ...
The actual ...demo_1_02.exe seems to be 1.00 again (always compare the filesizes).
Strange Canopus behaviour :)
Fearing already available cracked versions :D

Finally let me say:
Procoder (with Mastering Quality) gives outstanding quality.
No way to get anything similar with tmpeg or CCE.
But speed sucks completely (mastering gives 2 fps on Athlon XP 1800+ :eek: )

[m3taPT]

mb1:

thanks for the tip.
tried on one of the small Stigamata extras (the one i chose is a musicvideo) and i agree with you 101%. Quality is oustanding, but i couldnt go over 4fps (athlon xp 2000+). Now im trying with DC 8 instead of 10, but still 5.1fps. slow.

then ill fiddle with the ifoedit remux (will post results here)

Dunno why u "fear" the "fixed" versions, my "fixed" 1.01.35.0 works fine. :devil:


note: using a vfapi'd avi, speed is 3x slower than using the demuxed m2v from the original vob.

[mb1]

Hmm, interesting.

But how does Procoder load m2v directly. Per direct show ? That would give bad quality.

Have to try that myself. vfapi 3x slower, hmmm ?

[m3taPT]

the m2v i tried:
220.458.960 VTS_07_PGC_01_1 - 0xE0 - Video - MPEG-2 - 720x480 (NTSC) - 4~3.M2V

then i tried vfapi, and with same settings, quality was the same. of course, this will be troublesome for some due to the fact the main movie has to be demuxed into 1 single m2v file, and im sure most ppl's OS doesnt support such big files.

although when i installed procoder, it said directx8 and quicktime is required.

[auenf]

ProCoder has native mpeg-2 support, but is disabled in the demo, but it supports mpeg-2 thru DirectShow in the demo.

Enf...

[m3taPT]

tried almost all the settings procoder allows, then remuxing the m2v with ifoedit, with no luck. always out of synch.

[Blackbat]

Am I missing something or does Procoder only allow WAV audio files to be created if you specify creating elementary video and audio streams, rather than a program stream?

I've just encoded a short PAL DV file with Procoder to DVD specs and the program stream is 33MB, whereas if I encode elementary streams I get an m2v file of 31MB and a WAV file of 8MB...
--
Blackbat

[m3taPT]

I used elementary streams setting, and a m2v with video only as input. the output was the reencoded m2v and an invalid .wav file.

[mb1]

Don't load the DVD profile. Do custom settings and save them with a good name and description.
If you have PAL target you will get m2v and m2a by choosing elementary streams.

For NTSC you will get m2v and wav because NTSC DVD specs don't allow dvds only with MPEG Audio (has to be pcm wav or ac3 first then as second audio stream you are allowed to have MPEG Audio too). PAL allows MPEG Audio only as well :)

[Blackbat]

Cheers mb1 - that's the answer I was looking for.
--
Blackbat