Need some guidance with Matrice and Field order problems with CCE

[Holomatrix]

Hello, just wondering if someone could point me to some good threads or give a quick explaination on this topic with CCE. Still not sure if I need to apply tsunamis matrice patch or use angel or andreas matrices with CCE 2.62 and what patch is needed to fix CCE 2.5 to be able to change the field order ???
Any help would be great :)

[markrb]

From most of the testing done here there is little difference when using another Matrix with typical SVCD bitrates of 1600 Avg or higher. In the opinion of most of the group it is not worth the potential problems for the little, if any, picture improvement. However for very low bitrate encodes the other matrix's are suppose to work better.

The Matrix patcher unfortunetly cannot be publicly linked or shown where it is since it is also a crack and this would break the forum rules.

For finding old threads and there isn't much try the search button, but I believe you will mostly be dissapointed with what you find as most people abandoned the other matrix's some time ago. I am waiting to see the results Bach has said he would post with rather extensive testing of the various matrix's. He is the first I know of in the group to do any real thorough testing of the different ones.

If you wanted to just try some tests then CCE 2.62 has the ability for matrix's without a patch.

Mark

[orbit-r]

hi
if you want different matices with cce2.5 you will need tsunamis patcher(at leat version 028)and restream...you have to patch cce2.5
with tsunamis patcher(what matrice you like[me prefers the andreas matrix]) than run dvd2svcd as usual(don`t delete any files checked)
when its finished open the encoded .mpv-stream in restream,now you take the desired matrixs out of the patched cce2.5 folder and click write(the destination of the new .mpv stream must be dvdsvcd`s workfolder)...rename the new stream to the name of the old .mpv stream created by dvd2svcd now run crashrecovery at muxing step finish...
with restream you also can can change the fielorder like following:
-restream
-topfield checked or unchecked(what you want)
-cahge tff-flags checked

there is no patch as far as i know which fixes the fielorderbug of cce..
for all higher versions of cce(2.62,2.64)you don`t have to use the tsunami patcher cause you can select the marices manually and this versions will write it into the .mpv stream...

the different matices are for different encoding scenarios
i only know that that the andreas matrix is for progressive source..
:confused:
i think the best is testing for its own...

here are some matrices out of a german board:

'MPEG Standard'
8,16,19,22,26,27,29,34,
16,16,22,24,27,29,34,37,
19,22,26,27,29,34,34,38,
22,22,26,27,29,34,37,40,
22,26,27,29,32,35,40,48,
26,27,29,32,35,40,48,58,
26,27,29,34,38,46,56,69,
27,29,35,38,46,56,69,83

16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16



'CCE Standard'
8,16,19,22,26,27,29,34,
16,16,22,24,27,29,34,37,
19,22,26,27,29,34,34,38,
22,22,26,27,29,34,37,40,
22,26,27,29,32,35,40,48,
26,27,29,32,35,40,48,58,
26,27,29,34,38,46,56,69,
27,29,35,38,46,56,69,83

16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,
17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,
18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,
19,20,21,22,23,24,26,27,
20,21,22,23,25,26,27,28,
21,22,23,24,26,27,28,30,
22,23,24,26,27,28,30,31,
23,24,25,27,28,30,31,33



'CCE Smooth (CG etc.)'
8,16,20,22,24,24,24,24,
16,16,20,22,24,24,24,24,
20,20,22,24,28,28,28,28,
22,22,24,24,28,28,28,28,
24,24,24,24,32,32,32,32,
24,24,24,24,32,32,32,32,
28,28,28,28,32,32,32,32,
28,28,28,28,32,32,32,32

16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16



'CCE Very low bitrate'
8,16,19,22,26,27,99,99,
16,16,22,24,27,29,99,99,
19,22,26,27,29,34,99,99,
22,22,26,27,29,34,99,99,
22,26,27,29,32,35,99,99,
26,27,29,32,35,40,99,99,
26,27,29,34,38,46,99,99,
27,29,35,38,46,56,99,99

16,17,18,19,20,21,99,99,
17,18,19,20,21,22,99,99,
18,19,20,21,22,23,99,99,
19,20,21,22,23,24,99,99,
20,21,22,23,25,26,99,99,
21,22,23,24,26,27,99,99,
22,23,24,26,27,28,99,99,
23,24,25,27,28,30,99,99



'CCE Ultra low bitrate'
8,16,19,22,99,99,99,99,
16,16,22,24,99,99,99,99,
19,22,26,27,99,99,99,99,
22,22,26,27,99,99,99,99,
22,26,27,29,99,99,99,99,
26,27,29,32,99,99,99,99,
26,27,29,34,99,99,99,99,
27,29,35,38,99,99,99,99

16,17,18,19,99,99,99,99,
17,18,19,20,99,99,99,99,
18,19,20,21,99,99,99,99,
19,20,21,22,99,99,99,99,
20,21,22,23,99,99,99,99,
21,22,23,24,99,99,99,99,
22,23,24,26,99,99,99,99,
23,24,25,27,99,99,99,99



'TMPEGEnc CG'
8,32,32,32,32,32,32,32,
32,32,32,32,32,32,32,32,
32,32,32,32,32,32,32,32,
32,32,32,32,32,32,32,32,
32,32,32,32,32,32,32,32,
32,32,32,32,32,32,32,32,
32,32,32,32,32,32,32,32,
32,32,32,32,32,32,32,32

16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16



'Angel SVCD 1CD 2.35 avg800 max1500'
8,13,15,19,19,23,23,29,
13,13,17,19,22,23,27,29,
15,17,19,22,23,27,29,35,
17,21,22,23,27,29,35,37,
21,21,23,27,31,33,37,99,
21,25,27,31,33,37,99,99,
25,25,31,33,37,99,99,99,
25,31,33,37,99,99,99,99

8,11,13,15,15,19,19,24,
11,11,15,15,19,21,24,25,
13,15,17,19,21,24,25,34,
13,17,19,21,23,26,34,99,
17,19,21,23,26,32,99,99,
17,21,23,26,32,99,99,99,
22,22,28,30,99,99,99,99,
22,28,30,99,99,99,99,99



'Angel SVCD 4:3 Interlaced'
8,13,13,17,17,21,21,28,
13,13,17,17,19,21,23,30,
13,17,19,19,21,23,28,34,
13,17,19,19,21,23,28,99,
17,19,19,19,23,28,34,99,
19,19,23,25,28,32,34,99,
19,21,23,25,28,32,34,99,
21,21,25,25,28,32,34,99

8,11,11,15,15,17,17,24,
11,11,15,15,17,17,21,24,
13,15,15,17,21,21,26,34,
13,17,15,17,21,21,26,99,
17,21,21,23,21,30,34,99,
17,21,21,23,28,30,34,99,
19,19,25,26,28,30,99,99,
19,19,25,26,28,30,99,99



'Angel BestLow'
8,16,19,22,26,27,29,99,
16,16,22,24,27,29,34,99,
19,22,26,27,29,34,34,99,
22,22,26,27,29,34,37,99,
22,26,27,29,32,35,40,99,
26,27,29,32,35,40,99,99,
26,27,29,34,38,99,99,99,
27,29,35,38,99,99,99,99

16,17,18,19,20,21,22,99,
17,18,19,20,21,22,23,99,
18,19,20,21,22,23,24,99,
19,20,21,22,23,24,26,99,
20,21,22,23,25,26,99,99,
21,22,23,24,26,99,99,99,
22,23,24,26,99,99,99,99,
23,24,25,99,99,99,99,99



'Angel BestVeryLow'
8,16,19,22,26,27,99,99,
16,16,22,24,27,29,99,99,
19,22,26,27,29,34,99,99,
22,22,26,27,29,34,99,99,
22,26,27,29,32,35,99,99,
26,27,29,32,35,40,99,99,
26,27,29,34,38,99,99,99,
27,29,35,38,99,99,99,99

16,17,18,19,20,21,99,99,
17,18,19,20,21,22,99,99,
18,19,20,21,22,23,99,99,
19,20,21,22,23,24,99,99,
20,21,22,23,25,26,99,99,
21,22,23,24,26,99,99,99,
22,23,24,26,99,99,99,99,
23,24,25,99,99,99,99,99



'mb1 interlaced DV'
8,13,13,17,17,21,21,28,
13,13,17,17,19,21,23,30,
13,17,19,19,21,23,28,34,
13,17,19,19,21,23,28,48,
17,19,19,19,23,28,34,48,
19,19,23,25,28,32,34,48,
19,21,23,25,28,32,34,48,
21,21,25,25,28,32,34,48

8,11,11,15,15,17,17,24,
11,11,15,15,17,17,21,24,
13,15,15,17,21,21,26,34,
13,17,15,17,21,21,26,48,
17,21,21,23,21,30,34,48,
17,21,21,23,28,30,34,48,
19,19,25,26,28,30,48,48,
19,19,25,26,28,30,48,48



'Andreas 78er Matrix'
8,13,15,19,19,23,23,29,
13,13,17,19,22,23,27,29,
15,17,19,22,23,27,29,35,
17,21,22,23,27,29,35,37,
21,21,23,27,31,33,37,46,
21,25,27,31,33,37,46,58,
25,25,31,33,37,40,54,69,
25,31,33,37,40,54,69,78

8,11,13,15,15,19,19,24,
11,11,15,15,19,21,24,25,
13,15,17,19,21,24,25,34,
13,17,19,21,23,26,34,46,
17,19,21,23,26,32,46,56,
17,21,23,26,32,46,56,66,
22,22,28,30,46,56,66,69,
22,28,30,46,56,66,69,78



'Andreas einfache 99er Matrix'
8,13,15,19,19,23,23,29,
13,13,17,19,22,23,27,29,
15,17,19,22,23,27,29,35,
17,21,22,23,27,29,35,37,
21,21,23,27,31,33,37,46,
21,25,27,31,33,37,46,58,
25,25,31,33,37,40,54,69,
25,31,33,37,40,54,69,78

8,11,13,15,15,19,19,24,
11,11,15,15,19,21,24,25,
13,15,17,19,21,24,25,34,
13,17,19,21,23,26,34,99,
17,19,21,23,26,32,99,99,
17,21,23,26,32,99,99,99,
22,22,28,30,99,99,99,99,
22,28,30,99,99,99,99,99



'Andreas doppelte 99er Matrix'
8,13,15,19,19,23,23,29,
13,13,17,19,22,23,27,29,
15,17,19,22,23,27,29,35,
17,21,22,23,27,29,35,37,
21,21,23,27,31,33,37,46,
21,25,27,31,33,37,46,99,
25,25,31,33,37,40,99,99,
25,31,33,37,40,99,99,99

8,11,13,15,15,19,19,24,
11,11,15,15,19,21,24,25,
13,15,17,19,21,24,25,34,
13,17,19,21,23,26,34,99,
17,19,21,23,26,32,99,99,
17,21,23,26,32,99,99,99,
22,22,28,30,99,99,99,99,
22,28,30,99,99,99,99,99



'Andreas DivX 01 (fuer DivX Quellen)'
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,32,
8, 8, 8,16,16,16,32,32,
8, 8,16,16,16,32,32,32,
8,16,16,16,32,32,32,32,
16,16,16,32,32,32,32,32,
16,16,32,32,32,32,32,32,
16,32,32,32,32,32,32,32,
32,32,32,32,32,32,32,32

8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16,
8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16,16,
8, 8,16,16,16,16,16,16,
8,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16



'Kika Cartoon Low'
8,32,32,32,32,32,99,99,
32,32,32,32,32,32,99,99,
32,32,32,32,32,32,99,99,
32,32,32,32,32,32,99,99,
32,32,32,32,32,32,99,99,
32,32,32,32,32,99,99,99,
32,32,32,32,99,99,99,99,
32,32,32,99,99,99,99,99

8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16,
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16,
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16,
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16,
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16,
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16,
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16,
8, 8, 8, 8,16,16,16,16



'Kika Cartoon High'
8,16,16,16,24,24,32,32,
16,16,16,24,24,32,32,32,
16,16,24,24,32,32,32,32,
16,24,24,32,32,32,32,32,
16,24,32,32,32,32,32,32,
24,32,32,32,32,32,32,32,
24,32,32,32,32,32,32,32,
32,32,32,32,32,32,32,32

8,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,16,16,16,24


gruss
orbit-r:p

[Holomatrix]

Ok, thanks for the info. It'll be good to see what bach ends up with. Also I haven't tried 2.62 because I read that it has to run in 'safe mode' which makes it slow. Is there a reason for that?

[orbit-r]

hi
the reason for cce2.26 have to run in save mode is that it can`t read .avs files there for it needs a fake .avi(generated by vfapi)
...and vfapi is slow but in the new version of dvd2svcd you can you use link2 as frameserver for safe mode(you have to download it) it
should be fast as avisynth...but some people reported bugs when you select a titlepic and a change pic. i`ve experienced the same...

gruss
orbit-r

[Holomatrix]

Ok, I've patched with andreas but what do you mean by this "now you take the desired matrixs out of the patched cce2.5 folder" I don't have a folder in my CCE folder, don't I just run DVD2SVCD like normal now and CCE uses the new 'patched' matrice ? Would I do the rest of what you said to change the field order?
Thanks again

[orbit-r]

me again,
-when cce2.5 is patched you normally have 2 .mat files in the same folder where cctsp.exe is

-yes now you have to run dvd2svcd normal,but when its finished you have to open the .mpv stream in restream.. it shows a screen where
you can change most things of the stream..under intra VLC-format open
the intra.mat and the nonintra.mat like explained in the first line of this post..this will write a new.mpv with the (andreas)matrix..
use this stream(rename to originalname)with recoverfunction of dvd2svcd...
thats the only way to have different matrices with cce2.5
cause a bug of cce2.5 is when patched with tsunamis patcher it encodes with the new matrix but it doesn`t write back to the .mpv stream(it always uses the standard)

when changing fielorder its the same:
opening .mpv in restream
make the selection you want and hit write
rename to original name
crashrecovery
sounds complex but it isn`t

only patching doesn`t work

gruss
orbit-r
:)

edit:a other thread:http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22529&highlight=low+bitrate+matrix

[Holomatrix]

Edit: finished this reply before I read the previous.

Ok, just did a 2 min chapter from "Oceans Eleven" with 2.62 save mode and andreas matrix, then used 2.50 patched and the 2.62 mpg looks like crap so I think I'll stick with 2.50 also I did not notice any difference with the previous 2.5 encode than with 2.5 and andrea matrix but then again the bitrate is above 1600 anyway.
Can someone make a patch for the fieldorder thing because aren't home movies usually done with bottem field first? I would like to use CCE to convert some home movies.

Edit: Ok, I'll do as you said, I do have thoes files in my CCE directory

[Holomatrix]

@orbit-r
Could I use the proper Intra's under bbMpeg's IQM and NIQM settings and let bbMpeg add andrea's matrices automatically?

[orbit-r]

i figured out by some readings following:
bbmpeg`s matrix settings are only for the build-in encoder of it..
not for the muxing function.. i remeber some dvd2svcd versions ago
dvd2svcd added the bbmpeg matrix-muxing funtion(some people believed(me too) that it muxes the marix into the stream ..but it doesn`t)
(when cce2.5 is patched dvd2svcd put the .mat`s out of the cce folder
and take it to bbmpeg..)

so its impossible to add matrices to a .mpeg with bbmpeg..
but since it have no effect on the .mpeg you can leave it like it is
(hope i got your question right?)

gruss
orbit-r

ps:maybe try a hiher version of cce2.6 for testing in combination with link2(easier than the resream way) but there is the picture bug ..