Please stop using the OGM name

[BlackSun]

After some discussion with the Vorbis team, I felt an anger from them. We have started to use the OGM name because lot of people are confused with OGG, Vorbis, etc.

OGM=OGG ! OGG is a container and OGM is an OGG... It's OGGStacular :)

But well for the moment I BEG YOU to stop using the OGM name, but talk abou the OGG File format, the OGG Media. OGGMux mux OGG :)

[ChristianHJW]

There is a very simple reason for the birth of OGM .

Many Windows applications, even the beloved and widely used winamp, are detecting files by their extensions, not by their content. If we drop .ogm we have to replace it by something like .audio.ogg and .video.ogg , or you have to live with the fact that winamp is your default video player for you Ogg movies, being a pretty bad idea IMHO ( there are much better players for movies around, you know ;) ).

Vorbis people again trying to make Windows users look ridiculous, that's nothing new. Of course, Linux is doing things much better ( as always ) and all Windows users are lamers, cant hear this rubbish any longer, sorry. Instead of making jokes about Windows users they would be doing better by making the specs such that they are not only x-platform compatible but also do support a sensible way of use on all platforms, not only Linux. MCF is the proof that this is well possible.

As a conclusion i'd like you all to stick to the .ogm extensions and to use .ogg only for audio files. Dont care about Xiph people's anger, their knowledge of Windows should have been good enough to know we need different extensions for video and audio files. If it was in the specs, we would have used the recommended extensions from there, instead of having to create a new one ( they dont like now ).

And again : OGM is made by Tobias based on Ogg specs so he can name it however he wants to, as well as he can keep the sources.

[Acaila]

Where is Tobias anyway? Is he still alive? I haven't heard from him in a long time...

And personally I prefer to keep my movies with the .ogg extension. So what if audio is being played by default by powerdivx, thanks to Blacksun it's doing a great job with it :)

And besides, there are much worse things going on. Like people referring to Ogg as the audio codec and Vorbis as the company who developed it :D
First priority should be to get everyone's terminology correct, after that we can start discussing small things like the extension.

[Koepi]

Well, I won't change OggMux for that.

I'm a little fed up by the childish snibbishness of some wannabe-xiph-coders (and i don't mean monty. he usually is nice, but surrounded by many stupid, ass-licking lamers that want to profit from some hype).

Those surrounding people are the nerds (and jerks) to blame. Usually not even writing a single line of useful code, but trying to behave 31337.

OGM is real for mixed video+audio content in an OGG container.

But no problem, if Monty (explecitly him) insists, we all can drop our ogg support, put the efforts into MCF.

Btw., Tobias has been busy lately as he wrote in his last mail. Too bad I lost it due to a fresh install (partimage rocks - now I can have my win2k with sp2 and all important-marked windows update stuff reinstalled in 20 minutes :) and this legally without commercial software - bootable CD included, no workarounds with creating-a-ghost-bootdisk-and-make-it-the-CD-bootsector).

Hm, I'm getting off-topic here.

As far as I can tell, Tobias is fine. The online environment of Monty is lame.

What else to say?

Regards,
Koepi

[BlackSun]

ewwww ! I don't intend to create a war, Xiph are doing a very nice job and we don't have to care about what's going internally. Tobias OGG implementation is really good and I don't want to see it away.

What I wanted to say is that we may respect this, when someone mod DVD2AVi they don't call it Hyper-Supra2Avi...

Btw glad that you have some news from Tobias because he didn't answered my last mail yet...

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Koepi Well, I won't change OggMux for that. .. i wouldnt do either.
I'm a little fed up by the childish snibbishness of some wannabe-xiph-coders (and i don't mean monty. he usually is nice, but surrounded by many stupid, ass-licking lamers that want to profit from some hype). ... couldnt agree more mate :D ! I probably would have used other words, but as i may be in the situation again to go there ( IRC ) to talk to Monty i'd better not do so.
But no problem, if Monty (explecitly him) insists, we all can drop our ogg support, put the efforts into MCF. as much as i would like seeing you putting your effort into MCF Koepi, this will never happen. Monty is a very intelligent person, and same applies to some of the key personel around him like vakor, paradox, segher, etc. . I am convinced they recognize the big opportunity they have with MPEG4 people using their format ( or parts of the specs ) and audio codecs, furthermore the Ogg license, being very very open, would never allow them to ask for this.
Btw., Tobias has been busy lately as he wrote in his last mail. As far as I can tell, Tobias is fine. ... good to hear. I am starting to believe he is pissed about me advertising MCF so much, as he didnt reply to any of my mails i sent him in the last 3 months. But i may say here that i was always playing with open cards here, i always told him its my major aim to make MCF a success. Ogg is much better than AVI IMHO, and once it will be supported by a real editing tool ( like Vdub ) it will be very hard for MCF to prove its better, once its here.

[Koepi]

I'm still not confident that Avery will support it.
He answered my last mail (about if he stopped developing etc.).

But he didn't reply to my second mail (which I sent >4 weeks ago) asking about ogg container support (I added some links to resources about the format that time).

Regards,
Koepi

[BlackSun]

Ok now I'am worried about him... But Marc Dukette told me that Tobias helped him to get OGG support in the Pocket DivX Player, last week I think...

It's pretty strange he don't answer though. I hope he is away :(

[Koepi]

Hm, now it seems we have mixed "he"'s.

Avery gives some statements in the virtualdub.org news section.

Tobias is a little busy.

So do you expect Tobias to hack in OGG support into vdub? Would this mean a new branch? ;)

Questions arise...

Regards,
Koepi

[robUx4]

Guys, if you want OGG support in VDub you simply have to code it.
VDub is GPL and the CVS is on SF.net. You couldn't ask for more openess (maybe remove the few compilation tricks it uses ;).

I just had a quick look at the sources and if you want to support MCF (or OGG, but I'm concerned with MCF) you have to :
- add the menu to save to MCF in the resource file
- add the file type in the open dialog
- support drag&drop of MCF files
- make a subclass of InputFile to read MCF files
- make a sublass of IDubber to write MCF files

All the rest is there. And all this stuff should be quite simple to do (at least the basic features of MCF/OGG).

And then you can publish it wherever you want on the web, or on a CVS (like the MCF CVS in a tool directory ?) or even ask Avery to merge your changes (if you did any, which might not be necessary) and additions.

[Bluedan]

Originally posted by robUx4
Guys, if you want OGG support in VDub you simply have to code it.
VDub is GPL and the CVS is on SF.net. You couldn't ask for more openess (maybe remove the few compilation tricks it uses ;).



Boy, I wished I had more skills in programming than those left over from getting an assembler code to produce sprites and rotating colorful bars in the border of the screen on a famous little computer...

[Charlieds]

I'm using .ogm extension for my files and now i'm feeling guilty.

In the future, i will ask the permission for EVERY graph rendered, EVERY file muxed or even renamed.

Koepi, could you please insert a function in Oggmux that sends an automatic email of excuses, something like "Oooops! I did it again!" ?

:rolleyes:

[Actron]

hmm...you guys have too less work to do so you argue about so unimportant things like that, hmm ? :D

[Oxygen]

ok ...
hum as ChrHJW says, the ogm name is due to windows (as the mcf ;))
remember that OGM is the contraction of OGGGGGGGG and Media
because of the file assotiation in windows that is different from the unix systems, we had when the project was lauchd to find a name similar to remember that it is ogg, but still different for obvious windows reasons. also it has to be a 3 letters extension (stay in the 8.3 limits)
so what name should we use then ?
ogg or ogm ?

i think we still have to use ogm because of that, and we have to name the format (still in windows ;) as Ogg Media)
and ogg have to keep on going for Ogg Vorbis

all that for not having WA launch my ogg media files ;)

[MaTTeR]

I fail to understand why this issue is just now coming up months after we have been using the format. Most of those guys(Xiph) are fully aware that were using a different extension for obvious reasons.

Has anyone at Xiph offered a differnt solution. Naming all the media files with an .ogg extension isn't logical in my mind. Perhaps they should have considered this during the specification writing.

Acaila is definitely right, we have a major portion of the users in this community still confusing the terms constantly. How these people are confusing the 2 basic terms is beyond me:confused:

Edit- Would having a specific Vorbis forum under our audio forum help people to understand the term difference?

[Koepi]

Back when the extension was discussed, there were some voices that brought this issue up.

It was decided to use *.ogg for everything and the players should only render the streams they had codecs for.

So winamp et al. have a flawed implementation, generic *.ogg _could_ work if the coders had done their homework properly... but that's life, and that's why it is now necessary to use *.ogm.

Just my 2 € cents,
Koepi

[BlackSun]

Vakor brought this problem to me:

<Vakor> BlackSun: that would take all of 1 minute to do (literally!), to fully support any valid ogg stream (stop this OGM bullshit though, please)
<BlackSun> What's wrong with OGM ?
<Neo-Neko> Oh and BTW this OGM is not BlackSun's BS. I agree it is OGG. But the community at large has sterted calling it OGM. :( I hates it meself
<Vakor> What's wrong with OGM? Do you create a zip file of an executable, and call it blah.zie? Do you create an AVI and call it AVM? No. It's bloody stupid, that's what's wrong with it. It's an OGG>

[Koepi]

So when will it be announced at xiph.org that those playback filters / players should get corrected in this matter? :)

Regards,
Koepi

[gnoshi]

Ok, a brief spiel.

The problems I see with .ogg vs .ogm are more thought problems than technical problems. I mean, certainly it would be great if the right application could fire up with the right combination of streams, but I think more the problem is this:
Most (windows) people are not used to the same extension for different types of media.
.MP3 for example; if it is mpeg 1 layer 3, then really it should be .MP1 shouldn't it; yet it isn't (exception: If it is not in mp1 structure.. in which case woops; I don't know mp3 file structure)?
And when you open an avi, you'd be surprised to get just an audio stream no?
I can appreciate the desire from xiph for ogg files to be called ogg files. I understand the windows problems with people wanting to be able to use different applications for different ogg files and so giving different extensions too.
This may be a dumb question (but please humor me).. is it possible without using a prelaunch-application (eg a small app that runs when you open an ogg stream) to select different applications for different combinations of stream in the file itself?

After all that, I am happy to use .ogg rather than .ogm; my titles for audio and video and everything else are sufficiently different that I can tell by sight. Just a shame that there is not an easier way to use ogg-content-stream based selection of application (unless there is, in which case I will be fantastically happy to be wrong)

gnoshi
I don't actually know much of anything, but I try my best to gather a clue as I go along.

[robUx4]

Originally posted by Oxygen
ok ...
hum as ChrHJW says, the ogm name is due to windows (as the mcf ;))
remember that OGM is the contraction of OGGGGGGGG and Media
because of the file assotiation in windows that is different from the unix systems, we had when the project was lauchd to find a name similar to remember that it is ogg, but still different for obvious windows reasons. also it has to be a 3 letters extension (stay in the 8.3 limits)
so what name should we use then ?
ogg or ogm ?


I just tested on NT4.SP5 that it supports an extension like audio-toto without any problem. So the 8.3 limit doesn't exist.
But it can't support a dot in the extension... (like audio.mcf)

[tiki4]

Hi there,
I just read the discussion going on about the file extensions. Well, as far as I know Linux does not use any file extensions at all for files of different content. BUT: If you use the KDE environment for example you connect files to applications over their MIME types. But they are also defined via their file extension (e.g. .html for HTML files). The difference to Windows is that you can have more than one extension for the same type of file.
On the other hand most UNIX/Linux users start their applications on the command line and also pass the file to open directly on the command line, which is the 'traditional' way of opening a file in an UNIX environment but not very common for Windows users.

So what to end up with? The only OS I know that was able to connect files to an application by its actual content was OS/2. It's still pretty much alive but very seldomly mentioned in connection with MPEG4. Maybe there is also the MacOS (I never had one) but that OS does not run on x86 hardware.

As long as Windows is a crappy OS but the most widely used, we just have to deal with all those drawbacks. I will stick with OGM because life is easier that way. And as long as there is no VirtualDub for Linux, well...

tiki4

[avih]

damn what an importantly long thread for one day, and this day ain't over yet ;)

about windows association.

afaik, applications are associated to files by extension only, and NOT by file content.

on the other hand, dshoe FILTERS are associated with content using the next process:

1. using stream CONTENT, a filter is selected (using simple string search and match inside the file, this info is stored in the registry).

2. dshow tries to connect another filter, that acceps the output of a previous filter. that process is backtracking recursive, and might have multiple branches for multiple output pins. it stops with the 1st full filters chain it finds.

3. if no filter chain could be found using the content, it tries to match a filter using the file extension. again, in a backtracking recursive manner.

4. if that doesn't work either, it sets the major media type to Stream, and minor media type to NULL, and go all over the process again (not too much hope in this stage though).

5. if still no filter chain is found, it announces that it can't find appropriate filters.

so, for applications: it uses extensions only. for filters: content and extentsion.

cheers for this great thread.
avi

[MaTTeR]

This is a non-issue for the Macintosh world. Too bad Windoze isn't smart enough to deal with heads as such.

[robUx4]

Originally posted by MaTTeR
This is a non-issue for the Macintosh world. Too bad Windoze isn't smart enough to deal with heads as such.

Why ?
AFAIK Mac OS (maybe not OSX anymore) uses an extra file information attached to the file that says what application should open this file... So if you put/download an OGG file on a Mac you're very likely to be stuck to either the one that reads audio only or the one that play "video only"... The exact same problem. (unless the file is processed on a mac and contain the correct meta information).

The same would go with KDE, because the MIME type would be the same for .OGG with audio only and .OGG with video. It still relies on the extension to recognise this MIME type (AFAIK).

Actually only BeOS and its file system with meta data can handle this properly... But it's the past now :( :( :(

[avih]

there's OpenBeOS in early stages. they wanna duplicate beOS functionality using open source only and all available Be documentation, and stay compatible in source and binary levels to BeOS.

http://open-beos.sourceforge.net

cheers

ps
it SHOULD be possible to make a pre-launcher as someone suggested, that will test the stream content and extension and will launch an appropriate application according to it's decision.

it would probably use the dshow registry structures but would also be 'hand tailored' for specific issues. could be an interesting project.

you'll have to associate all your media extensions with this app, and it will launch the appropriate one.

anyone wanna start such a project?? ;)

[Koepi]

hehe :)

I still think it would be WAY more appropiate to make the apps that handle ogg aware of the different stream types...

Regards,
Koepi

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by Koepi
hehe :)

I still think it would be WAY more appropiate to make the apps that handle ogg aware of the different stream types...

Regards,
Koepi

Doom9, jonI, JohnMK, Vakor and myself have discussed this at length in IRC with Vakor just a little while ago. Quite a heated discussion I might add:eek:

The thought is that JohnMK suggest having a wrapper around the Ogg file indicating the contents. I'll be opening a new thread soon so that the Vorbis devs and Hydrogen Audio memebers might participate as well. The wrapper idea sounds good and according to Vakor the media player coders would only need to add/change about 20 lines of code or so to implenent it.

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by robUx4
The exact same problem. (unless the file is processed on a mac and contain the correct meta information).

Well this is what I meant by the "Macintosh World" statement I made. The meta information is indeed what the Mac is looking at in the DesktopDB files as such. In Windoze were just having to think for it in respect to different file types.

[gnoshi]

Koepi: One thing I don't understand about making the apps that handle ogg aware of different stream types.

In what way should they handle them..? for example, with the advent of powerdivx4 I'll want all my ogg files that are not a single vorbis stream to run in powerdivx4 but all my single-stream files that have only vorbis to run in winamp. I don't understand how the players understanding about the streams better would help me here, unless one player then loaded another and exited itself... (just wanting clarification)

As for using an intermediatary application which examines the ogg's content streams and selects an application from that, I'd love to write one but simply don't have the ability at this point in time (been doing database stuff for too long and have let all my other languages slip badly), but I'll see what I can do to relearn enough (if that is what it was felt was the best option).

gnoshi

[robUx4]

Originally posted by MaTTeR


Doom9, jonI, JohnMK, Vakor and myself have discussed this at length in IRC with Vakor just a little while ago. Quite a heated discussion I might add:eek:

The thought is that JohnMK suggest having a wrapper around the Ogg file indicating the contents. I'll be opening a new thread soon so that the Vorbis devs and Hydrogen Audio memebers might participate as well. The wrapper idea sounds good and according to Vakor the media player coders would only need to add/change about 20 lines of code or so to implenent it.

LOL, compared to a different file extension that's rather complicated.
Just compare the number of possible bugs... No need for such a complexity where it's not needed...

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by robUx4 ... No need for such a complexity where it's not needed... ... nothing to add here from my side. As much as my sympathies are with the Ogg Vorbis project, for sure we will not rename all our OGM movies to .ogg and fiddle with such an application ....

[int 21h]

I think the solution to this is simple.

Write your own spec for OGM, defining it as a container format following OGG specifications containing one or more of video and/or audio streams.

Call it Original Generic Media format.

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by robUx4


LOL, compared to a different file extension that's rather complicated.
Just compare the number of possible bugs... No need for such a complexity where it's not needed...

Of course it's more complicated and time consuming, that's the whole problem why some of us are moaning and groaning about the change:)

So it seems we need to find a very easy solution for the issue with minimal effort. Because after seeing what I seen this morning, Vakor feels very stronly about keeping the .ogg extension.

[AlwSN5]

I mainly read these forums rather than posting, so I can't help but notice that most of the people in this discussion are very active in developing these new formats. I use ogg because it is a great container, but it seems ridiculous to try and force people to use the same extension for both their ‘audio only’ ogg media, and their ‘video and audio’ ogg media. When I want to send my friend a movie, it is hard enough getting him to download all of the correct codecs, and even associate an ogm file with something that will render video. I can't see the benefit of needlessly adding a step of complication by changing the ogm extension to ogg, and I'll be quite happy to rename the extension to ogm even if the programs default to ogg. Windows has trouble enough remaining stable without any added complications of another application having to load to see what program should really load my ogg files.

If I wrote an amazing program that transmitted 3d images of x-rays to doctors, and I named that standard 'tangible x-ray transmissions' (it would be just that good), I wouldn't have the extension be txt because, as much as I may dislike it, that extension is used for something else. I wouldn't want to confuse my user base that is only interested in looking at my 3d x-rays, and could care less what my official name for the format was, or what my extension for the format is.

The goal of these new formats, it seems to me, is to increase the capabilities of compressing video and playing them back. If this is successful, and the ogg container replaces avi containers, the inevitable result of more people using it, is that they will have no idea what the programs are, or what the really do. I’m glad I understand what an ogg container is, but if it because widely used, most users wouldn’t understand any remotely technical explanation. Windows doesn’t even default to displaying the file extensions… most people just know to double click on the icon they’ve learned to associate with video files.

I mean no disrespect to anyone, I hold everyone in the video community in the highest esteem.

Regards,
AlwSN

[BlackSun]

PowerDivX 4 Aka The Core Media Player make the difference between audio and video.

I am not talking about really changing the fileext, I am more talking about the name, I think it's better for the sake to know that it's derived from Ogg (and it was designed for Vorbis)

Koepi: I have news from Tobias everything is ok

[Milkman Dan]

So after reading Vakor's statements about "you don't name avi's differently..." etc, I'm forced to wonder what the real reason behind all this is.

I mean, is it BS posturing, or what?

It's like they're in a little tiff about the PRINCIPLE of the thing. This "Dammit, it's an Ogg, not this .OGM BS" attitude isn't really constructive to solving the problems of the coding community at large. Coming down on Koepi (by extension) et al for supporting the proliferation of .ogm is just ...well...retarded. I for one would be estatic that my format was being used by a hojillion different people. Who cares if it's .ogg or .ogm. It's their own fault for not designing their format with an eye towards the dominant OS platform.

The adding of a wrapper is a solution that I would expect out of M$. "Gee, let's add another layer of complexity, AND shuff off the real load of coding to the peons doing the player apps and muxers. Wee! Partay!"

:rolleyes:

.ogm is a simplistic and direct solution whose only fault is ruffling the feathers of those who gave up the ability to enforce the change by their own licensing decisions. It's pretty ridiculous any way you look at it.

Hopefully, some of the Xiph people will come up with something less specious than "It's an ogg, not an ogm."

[ChristianHJW]

Hi Milkman Dan,

glad to see you back from time to time and thanks for your input. How is your Java MCF muxer doing ?

I'd love to see Tobias replying to this thread. After all its his format implementation, so his opinion would be the most important here and needs to be heard. But maybe he is thinking '.... f..ck, i prefer going to code stuff instead of wasting my precious time with discussing about stupid extensions ....' ;) ...

[MaTTeR]

I was planning on starting a new thread about this subject at Hydrogen Audio so all parties could reply. However, Xiph has a "secret" project going on known as "Theora". Apparently this new project is going to force the extension issue to be addressed so I'm going to wait and see what happens.

In the meantime, I've already directed a few people from HA and #vorbis to this thread. Let's try and keep it civil and see what kind of resolutions are pitched.

[LordofStars]

Sidenote: Which servers do the channels #ha and #vorbis and perhaps #doom9? use?

[Milkman Dan]

[grin] I'll keep it civil if Koepi does. ; )

Hey there Christian! -Gemma is going along alright, considering I can only work on it a few hours a week. The scripting format is done (All authoring projects work from scripts, so that 3rd party tools can generate scripts of their own without going through the GUI authoring process) and is fully XML compliant. This saves me from having to write a tokenizer, AND the Java XML support is awesome, AND the Java XML libaries check the XML file for correctness, which saves me yet more coding! Yay!

I'm almost at the design phase where I'm gonna post on here asking for suggestions given an outline of how the program works. I dunno if Doom9's is the right place for this though. I'm looking for more user-level input rather than other programmers though, so this seemed the best place. Suggestions?

Anyway, back to the topic; if Xiph has something better than "it's the principle of the thing," then I'm all ears.

If they're gonna try and force it somehow, that's ...not good. There, no degrading remarks this time. :D

[inoteb]

Well, nothing interesting to add (not enouth experienced in the matter); just wanted to say that this debate is really gripping. Keep going on please! :p

Personally, I'm voting for the simplicity of the .ogm extension.

[Doom9]

@lorg: #doom9 is on efnet, the mother of all the nets ;) #vorbis and #project_mayhem are on openprojects. but thanks to the latest mirc it's no longer a problem being on multiple nets.. just wished I could launch both nets at the same time and join the appropriate channels. guess I should re-learn how to do scripts in mirc

@dan: great comment... my thoughts exactly. I'm afraid when I was in the ha channel last time (for the first time) I didn't exactly get a warm welcome... just ask matter... but in the defense of the general channel population I have to say that they were being civil with one exception..

[unplugged]

Stupid question:

Can Windows rightly recognize such type of extensions?

MYMUSIC.vorbis.ogg
MYVIDEO.XviD.ogg
MYFINALVIDEO.AV.ogg
MYTRACK.ac3.ogg
...

?


P.S.: To be honest Shouldn't be this THE logical way?
(I'm not Mr Spock)

[LotionBoy]

AFAIK, windows only uses the last extention for file-type ID. So .ogg would be used in all cases, and anything before that is consider to be part of the file name. So that wouldn't work.

I think this entire thread is ridiculous. I use custom extentions on my machine all the time to achieve the needed effect. It's just the way Windows forces you to work. Who the hell cares what the extention on the file is, as long as it is not causing conflicts. I could name my ogg files with a .sux extention and they would still open fine as long as I associated them correctly. I prefer having audio only files have a different extention from A/V files. So I use different extentions. So do most people. And that's just the way it is going to be. Attacking respected community members is not going to convince anyone of anything, except the immaturity of the flamer.

I can't believe this is an issue.

LotionBoy

[MaTTeR]

Please remember Vakor is only one person and doesn't represent the Ogg Vorbis community as a whole.

LotionBoy is correct, Winodws is only going to look at the last 3 letters of the file name in order to associate it to a particular application.

When I stated that this new "Theora" project might force the issue a little more, I meant that this project might bring a solution to light. Perhaps Neo Neko can fill in the blanks on how this might come about.

Like most of you I found it hard to believe this was an issue as well, especially this late in the game. On the other hand, Neo Neko had some valid points in IRC regarding Xiph's point of view.

[LotionBoy]

I'd be interested to hear the valid points if anyone has a copy.

LotionBoy

[Milkman Dan]

Originally posted by unplugged


P.S.: To be honest Shouldn't be this THE logical way?
(I'm not Mr Spock) [/B]

That's how MCF does the file naming. That is to say:

myAnimeVideo.av.mcf <-- Muxed streams with chapters etc.
myAnimeVideoStream.video.mcf <-- component stream
myAnimeVideo_Toxicity_SystemOfADown.audio.mcf <-- component stream

As already pointed out however, as far as Windows is concerned there is only one part to the extention, which is .mcf.

Whether or not it's THE logical way to do it, well...[shrug]

Perhaps when Windows changes to the databasing file system, it'll start doing forking or whatever like MacOS and Linux do. It is smarter.

So it's for human readability only that the .av or .video exist. The MCF handler won't care, and Windows is half-blind.

The invalidity I find in Xiph's "you don't rename avi's" compared to .ogg is that the situations and contents of the files have different circmstances mitigating their use.

Vorbis has been around for years, and (obviously) has contributed to the Ogg-Vorbis misterming. Hell, when I first heard about it, I called Vorbis Ogg too! I just wasn't obvious to me that they were different. Of course, I know better now.

However, AVI from the start always had video. It's intrinsic. AVI = audio VIDEO interleave. On top on that, who here uses AVI to hold just audio streams? Anyone?

Thought so.

They're trying to equate the two uses, and it's not a solid argument. I called it specious, and I meant it.

But yes, by all means, bring'em in here. I want to hear the supporting evidence that this is some sort of big deal. Maybe I'll eat my words. I dunno.

[int 21h]

Originally posted by Milkman Dan

However, AVI from the start always had video. It's intrinsic. AVI = audio VIDEO interleave. On top on that, who here uses AVI to hold just audio streams? Anyone?


I was going to bring this up before, but didn't...

This is impossible. It violates the specifications for AVI. You must have at least two streams, interleaved together, otherwise it isn't AVI.

[Milkman Dan]

Originally posted by int 21h


I was going to bring this up before, but didn't...

This is impossible. It violates the specifications for AVI. You must have at least two streams, interleaved together, otherwise it isn't AVI.

Heh. Guess that leaves both Vakor and I uninformed huh?

Doesn't really change the point though. The 'paradigm,' if you will, for formats hasn't generally included multiple content types per extension. Ogg violates this widely accepted convention. And we took care of the problem it posed.

But thanks for pointing that out. I was ignorant of the specs in that regard.

[Neo Neko]

Emmett has been teasing the public with Theora of late. I can safely say that much as he has thrown it around in public chat. I had a bit more in depth discussion of it with him though as to the parties involved, time tables, and just what exactly it is. But don't bother asking me cause I will not mention any more until the appointed time.

Basically as it stands I understand both sides. But my belief is to simply call it OGG. Where the problem arises is that if your OGGs are associated with winamp, winamp just dumps core and runs if the OGG contains anything more than a simple Vorbis header. And this is why some people want an alternate extension. Actually it is not winamp that freaks, but the decoder plug in. I guess you could say it is kind of broken. It was only ever meant to handle audio only OGGs and it works fine for that. But OGGs like AVI were not meant to be audio only. All these people wanting and using the alternate extension have a bit flawed perception of what OGG is. But the incompatible / broken decoders have not helped. Fixing these decoders will become paramount once Theora is announced. This will not be a 3rd party implementation like Tobias's is. Even though Tobias created his filters from then unimplemented Xiphophorus specs. This will be the real deal handed down from the company themselves. And the schedual is set to move fast. It will bring about the solidification of the OGG “multimedia” project. As in more than just audio. So multimedia OGGs are going to become official and a lot more common.

The alternate extension thing is only an MP3-PRO like kludge. Once decoders are updated the alternate extensions issue should be mute. This could be accomplished in future Xiphophorus libraries or by coding a check to ignore extraneous or non-pertinent headers. Ignoring the unneeded header info should be done first though. As it will still be a bit before Theora will be officially announced and then a bit longer before it is ready. So the libraries might not be updated for some time.



Oh and just because I know some of you are going to ask. No Tarkin is not dead. Theora is only partly covering for Tarkin. It will be used to spring the OGG project forward and keep it moving till Tarkin is ready. But Tarkin is the ultimate goal.