PAL slowdown to NTSC with dvd2svcd?

[MvB]

I've noticed that dvd2svcd has the option to convert NTSC movies to PAL for playback on PAL TVs.

will there be a possibilty in dvd2svcd to reverse the effect? (I've searched the forum but didn't find anything)

It would be very very helpful for a lot people who are cursed with this speedup of the movies. It would allow all of them to make copies from their PAL DVDs into NTSC SVCDS with nearly the right speed.
(You can tell the difference between PAL and NTSC, but you cannot tell the difference between cinema (24 FPS) and NTSC (effective: 23.976 FPS).

Ideas (got them nearly all from kermit70):
1) Resize the movie to 480x480 instead of 480x576 (could that cause an incorrect aspect ratio?).
2) If there is a possibilty to change the framerate of the mpeg2, set it to 23.976 (before: 25).
3) convert the .wav files (2 for stereo or 6 for ac3) from 48000 to
50050,08 Samples/s (if my calculation is right, it's 4.271 % from 23.976 to 25 FPS, so audio should be slowed down the same factor) with ssrc (http://shibatch.sourceforge.net/)
4) Change the wav-Header back to 48000 khz using wavfix
5) then mux audio and video together


Result should be a backup of a PAL-DVD in NTSC-SVCD.

I don't have the time in the moment to try something like this, but it would be a very important feature in dvd2svcd, i think.

The reason:
It's really anoying that all PAL DVDs are running (as usually known) about 4% faster than the NTSC versions. (Yes, I mean the effective Speed not the framerate). Some people say, you wouldn't notice the difference, but the difference IS really bad and everybody can hear it. The Speedup destroys nearly every scene. Characters get a voice i have problems to recognize, knowing the original. Because the speed is so fast i miss a lot of variations in accentuation and (especially in the movie 2001) i really see the camera moving faster destroying the slow motion that was wanted as an effect.

Thanks

[markrb]

It is far to complicated to convert a movie from PAL to NTSC in this kind of solution. You cannot simply drop the framrate, it needs to be converted and when you do the audio isn't right. So now you need to time correct the audio. It is difficult at best doing it manually and I bet next to impossible doing it in DVD2SVCD.

Actually this has been covered before. For your most complete answers to how to do this look and search for a few posts in the SVCD forum. They are very good and offer several ways to try it. Be warned it's not easy and at times almost impossible.

It is much easier to from NTSC to PAL.

I can be pretty comfortable in saying this ability is highly unlikely to come to DVD2SVCD. I would say it will never happen, but I have been burned before when I said it, but in this case the level of difficulty pretty much assures this.

Mark

[MvB]

Sorry, thought it would be an easy task.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=18957

found this article where Pko says it's easy and makes no real effort.
this guy says it works. and it could be done in one pass with nearly no more waiting than without slowing down.

Hope it is so how he says.


Thanks for your time.

[markrb]

He makes it sound simple, but have a look at the few threads in the SVCD forum. It really isn't. Changing the video framrate isn't all that hard, it's really the audio. The audio becomes out of pitch and sometimes out of sync.

The easiest way in the world is get a DVD player that does the conversion on the fly. My Pioneer 343 player does this and many other players do as well. Most don't say they do it in the manual, but then again when have you seen that a player plays SVCD's in a manual as well? Sometimes the list at www.vcdhelp.com will tell you, but it isn't perfect either. I guess the only way to be sure is to try it.

Mark

[MvB]

Hi,

i'll try to find an easy way to do this. Could take some time. If it would be possible to tell avisynth to report another framerate to the application that uses the .avs script (e.g. 23.976 instead of 25 Fps) it would be an easy task.

Or if there would be a tool like avifrate to change the framerate of a mpeg2 file without reencoding the mpeg ... than it would be an easy task, too. The tools to alter the audio exist. wavfix and ssrc, more is not needed.

If anyone knows this --> please tell.

Thanks
MvB

[dvd2svcd]

Can't you just use AssumeFPS(23.976,True) in the Avisynth Script? That's what I do when doing NTSC2PAL.

The main reason I haven't made PAL2NTSC is because of the resizing. A fullscreen PAL converted to NTSC would mean cropping (at least I think it will).

[MvB]

Hi dvd2svcd,

This is for computer viewing only, so it's not for TV! You don't have to crop for TV but you have only to resize instead of 480x576 to 480x480!
So this article is bullshit 'cause we're interested in changing PAL TV to NTSC TV. Consider this article as wrong for your purposes.

Only for devices that do not change the spacing between lines (like a computer) but this is nonsense and totally unnecessary:
crop 48 line above and under the picture. That doesn't matter for widescreen and anamorph dvds, as the ratio for shrinking the picture is the same in PAL and NTSC. So you end up with larger black bars in PAL. If you crop 48 line from every bar you have exact the same picture as on a NTSC DVD. That means, the height of the picture in widescreen is the same in NTSC and PAL, only the black bars are bigger in PAL. The only case, where you have to crop a part of the picture to get the right format is by a 4:3 fullscreen PAL DVD. But here is the picture bigger than on a NTSC DVD. If they made this this fullscreen picture on a NTSC DVD, they would have to reduce it in size, normally by cutting the same lines we would do. Otherwise it doesn't fit. For PAL from a NTSC source they normaly zoom a bit in the picture to make fit. But no doubt, you can leave fullscreen DVDs as they are, if you don't want to loose a little bit of the picture, but this cropping doesn't touch the picture of a normal anamorph or widescreen DVD.
The only case where it's not so: if they zoom in the picture to make the anamorph PAL DVD. But I have not encountered this so far (but I can imagine this). If this occurs, it's a little price for watching the movie in the correct speed as i cannot stand these 'too fast' movies.

I'll try this assumeFPS feature. If it works, i post all necessary moves to do this. Maybe it's so easy it could be easily done in dvd2svcd :)

Thanks
MvB

[MvB]

Thanks dvd2svcd,

sorry, i've written the wrong crop. This one is now (480) right :(

AssumeFPS works, try to write a Batch that takes care for the audio.
this script works:

LoadPlugin("F:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\SIMPLE~1\SIMPLE~1.DLL")
LoadPlugin("F:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\mpeg2dec.dll")
mpeg2source("f:\usr\mvb\image\DVD2AV~1.D2V")
SimpleResize(480,576)
crop(0,48,480,480)
AssumeFPS(23.976,True)

MvB

[dvd2svcd]

I think that you can just re-encode the audio (while CCE is running). The easiest way would be to copy the commandline (found in the dvd2svcd log) and paste it into the command prompt and make the appropriate adjustments -ota( -r 25000 23976 ) I think that's how it looks, but you you better check up on it in the Besweet help.

[MvB]

Hi,

does anybody know why besweet doesn't do this?

F:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD>"F:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\BeSweet\BeSweet.exe" -core( -input "F:\usr\mvb\image\Extracted_audio_1.ac3" -output "F:\usr\mvb\image\Encoded_audio_1.mp2" -logfile "F:\usr\mvb\image\Encoded_audio_1.log" ) -ota( -r 25000 23976 ) -azid( -L -3db -c normal -g max ) -2lame( -e -b 160 -m j )
BeSweet v1.3b12 by DSPguru.
--------------------------
Using azid.dll v1.8 (b825) by Midas (midas@egon.gyaloglo.hu).
Using ssrc.dll v1.28 by Naoki Shibata (shibatch@geocities.co.jp).
Using MP2enc.dll v1.129 (8/3/2002), Engine 1.129 <http://www.cdex.n3.net>.

[00:00:00:000] -- Initializing...
F:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD>

After Initializing it just stops.
Without the -ota parameter it works. strange.

Thanks
MvB

[MvB]

Hi dvd2svcd,

here is the easy solution...but i could only test it without dvd2svcd because dvd2svcd.exe creates the *.avs files on the fly for CCE and does not include pulldown.exe in its process of creating a PAL-SVCD. It doesn't know that the PAL source has changed to NTSC.

If anyone can make this process easier, please tell.

but first: thanks for the information above.
It's not done with the stretching of the audio...I have to alter the .avs files too (you know, for cropping and framerate :) ). And that can't be done with a batch script cause dvd2svcd.exe creates them after loading of CCE and doesn't accept a batch instead of CCE. If the following steps could be included into the program it is easily possible to convert from PAL to NTSC. I post the needed information for slowdown below. Besides the ssrc-dll doesn't work with -ota(-r 25000 23976). So i got ssrc.exe and there it works.

Process of slowdown

1) The audio part

First I made 2 more directories in $DVD2SVCDROOT (ssrc and wavefix) and copied the corresponding programs in there.
Then should run the following commands:

Extracting the ac3 audio to 2 channel wav (if it's possible to extract 6 wavs from an ac3 the slowdown procedure should work too)

"$DVD2SVCDROOT\BeSweet\BeSweet.exe" -core( -input "$DESTDIR\Extracted_audio_1.ac3" -output "$DESTDIR\Encoded_audio_1.wav" -2ch -logfile "$DESTDIR\Encoded_audio_1.log" ) -azid( -L -3db -c normal -g max )

Changing the sampling frequency of the audio and deleting the obsolete one

"$DVD2SVCDROOT\ssrc\ssrc.exe" --rate 50050 "$DESTDIR\Encoded_audio_1.wav" "$DESTDIR\enc.wav
del "$DESTDIR\Encoded_audio_1.wav"

Stretching the audio with wavefix
I have to mention that wavefix wants you to manually type y or n to its questions. Because they are always the same, i wrote a file called "y" in $DVD2SVCDROOT that includes the correct answers. They will be applied automatically. For "y" (the file) open your favourite editor and type:
y
48000
n
n
y

and save this in $DVD2SVCDROOT as "y". Important: Press <return> after each line!


"$DVD2SVCDROOT\wavefix\wavefix.exe" "$DESTDIR\enc.wav"<"$DVD2SVCDROOT\y"

Creating the mp2 file dvd2svcd uses in its svcd-making. It's clear the parameters for lame can be changed :)

"$DVD2SVCDROOT\BeSweet\BeSweet.exe" -core( -input "$DESTDIR\Enc.wav" -output "$DESTDIR\Encoded_audio_1.mp2" -logfile "$DESTDIR\Encoded_audio_1.log" ) -2lame( -e -b 160 -m j)

Now we have easily created a mp2 file with the correct playback speed for the converted PAL movie.

2) The video part

So, you only have to change the *.avs scripts. For the pictures do a resize like for NTSC.

For the movie do a resize not to (480,576) but to (480,480) and add

AssumeFPS(23.976,True)

to the end of the script.

That convinces CCE to have a NTSC source.

The only other thing to do is to tell DVD2SVCD it has a NTSC Source. It should use the usual NTSC process to create the SVCDs (you know: pulldown.exe etc). That it won't do at the moment because the ifo says it's PAL.

Update 05/30/2002:
You have to apply the pulldown by yourself. That can be done the follwing way:
1) Wait till dvd2svcd has finished the process. But you cannot use the svcd images on your harddisk (they will play choppy 'cause of the missing pulldown.

2) Locate the Video stream tmpenc or CCE have created (it ends with .mpv). Run %DVD2SVCDROOT/pulldown/pulldown.exe %DESTDIR/%YOURVIDEOSTREAM.mpv %DESTDIR/pulldown.mpv

3) %DVD2SVCDROOT/bbmpeg/runbbmpeg

4) Klick on settings -> Input and Output files
Open PS: %DESTDIR/bbMPEG_Muxed_File.mpg
Open VS: %DESTDIR/pulldown.mpv
Open AS1:%DESTDIR/Encoded_audio_1.mp2

5) Program Stream Settings -> Program stream type: SVCD
Leave everything else untouched.

6) General Settings -> Multiplexing/start/stop/size options:
Enter 9999 into the field called End second and 795 (vor 80m CD)
or 735 (for 74m CD) into the field called Max size. Then press OK.

7) Press Start and wait, till bbmpeg has created your splitted muxed
video. Now you have the correct bbMPEG_Muxed_FileXX.mpg on your HD.

8) Now you copy the commandlines for vcdxbuild from your dvd2svcd log
into your cli (for every muxed video file there exists one to
create the corresponding image).

9) Volá. Now you have the correct NTSC-SVCD-images.

That's it. It's really not a big thing, but it solves our big PAL problem at once.
I think it would be very important for a lot of people if you could put this function in dvd2svcd. I don't know how I could do this.

I've attached the files "ssrc.exe" and "wavefix.exe", so you can have and try them, if you want.

Thanks for your time
MvB

[MvB]

Sorry,

there was a mistake in the article above i corrected.

(http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=24888)

If it is so Linux says, the crop line it obsolete. I've corrected the previous article to show the right script :o
This is what i've done:

Remove the crop(...) line
Change the line SimpleResize(480,576) to SimpleResize(480,480). I'll try this, but I don't have much time so that could take some time.

MvB

[DSPguru]

Originally posted by MvB
Hi,

does anybody know why besweet doesn't do this?

F:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD>"F:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\BeSweet\BeSweet.exe" -core( -input "F:\usr\mvb\image\Extracted_audio_1.ac3" -output "F:\usr\mvb\image\Encoded_audio_1.mp2" -logfile "F:\usr\mvb\image\Encoded_audio_1.log" ) -ota( -r 25000 23976 ) -azid( -L -3db -c normal -g max ) -2lame( -e -b 160 -m j )pal2ntsc isn't supported (yet?). only ntsc2pal.

[MvB]

Hi,


yes, linux is right.
We have to resize the image in the process.
So dvd2svcd only has to change the line

SimpleResize(480,576) to SimpleResize(480,480) and he has to add
AssumeFPS(23.976,True) to the script when slowing down from PAL to NTSC like shown above.

I've already produced such a test-svcd and it works fine. The same picture in NTSC with correct speed.

Thanks
MvB

[prattboy]

Sorry for being a newbie, but this is all a little complicated for me. What's the chance that somebody could put all this into a utility (or package it in w/ DVD2SVCD?) I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to be able to convert PAL to NTSC w/o having to go through all that.

Thanks,
prattboy

[Tatjahna]

I have no problems with ssrc.exe in the audio part of your guide... my problem is with wavefix.exe ... it says "error opening the file xxxx.www"

I extract the audio from the VOBs with DVD2AVI ... Then convert the AC3 to WAV with BeSweet like your commandline, then do the ssrc one, but when trying to execute the wavefix.exe it simply doesn't work.

1- "d:\Multimedia\Audio\BeSweetGUI0.6b50\BeSweetv1.3\BeSweet.exe" -core( -input "d:\Project\menu\menu01 AC3 T01 2_0ch 192Kbps DELAY 0ms.ac3" -output "d:\Project\menu\menu01.wav" -2ch -logfile "D:\Multimedia\Audio\BeSweetGUI0.6b50\BeSweet.log" ) -azid( -L -3db -c normal -g max )

2- D:\Project\menu\ssrc.exe --rate 50050 "D:\Project\menu\menu01.wav" "D:\Project\menu\menu01_ssrc.wav"

3- D:\Project\menu\Wavefix.exe "D:\Project\menu\menu01_ssrc.wav"<y
(assuming y file is in the same dir as the wavefix.exe)

Since there is a result of 3 threads in there when doing a search on wavefix, I simply hope to get further help with this method, if not I will have to get back into CoolEdit to do it! :mad:

A big thanx in advance...

[Jason28]

I would have to guess that you are having this porblem because you are using a .avi file for the encode. MvB was using a DVD source for his conversion. I wish that I had something that would help you out, unfortunatly I dont really do AVI2SVCD so I dont have the much experiance in it. :(

[Tatjahna]

Erm.. no it's a PAL DVD that I have run in DVD2AVI to get the project and the ac3 file.. :(

I did an ac3 conversion after that by using BeSweet.. I really don't understand how come it don't work.. I have noticed another thread where a guy told that he wasn't able to open files with wavefix too but no one replied to this..

I have then returned to the method of the 25/23.976 * 100 to have the ratio to put in CoolEdit and this even didn't worked. :sly: Why ? Because the framerate of the movie that VDub give me is 25.026 so there is .026 of difference and that's what still causes me desync..

If I would make wavefix to work with my converted ac3 file, that would be faster for me I guess.. :) If you need informations on what I have set in DVD2AVI to get the audio, just ask and I will tell them.. but in resume, I have let all to Demux, and let the 48khz as is..

Thanx in advance!

[MvB]

@tatjahna



3- D:\Project\menu\Wavefix.exe "D:\Project\menu\menu01_ssrc.wav"<y

The only thing i see there is, that if you aren't actually in the directory of wavefix the file "y" won't be found! Should say something like "The System couldn't find the file you specified" or so.

I've never actually gotten a problem opening WAVs with wavefix. Try to get loose of the spaces in the name, may wavefix doesn't like this?

MvB

[dingo]

I was very interested by this process because at the same bitrate, the NTSC picture look better.

BUT, there is a problem:
You're right the DVD in pal are runnig 4% faster but when you convert to NTSC you don't recover the original sound. And it's because when the movie are speeded up for the PAL video, the sound Engineer correct the frequencies: he decrease a little the high frequencies (caused by the speedup of the movies).

And then when you convert the pal DVD to NTSC, you don't recover the sound of the NTSC DVD but a sound with too much low frequencies.

[MvB]

@dingo:

That's, as far as I know, odd. As for my personal expirience, I've (till now) never encountered a PAL movie where they went into the process of artificially transposing the sound of a movie. If it's needed, there should be a possibility to stretch the audio without slowing it down.

All DVDs I had (you can believe me, a LOT, but only RC2) are running with audio pitched 4% to fast.

[dingo]

http://www.dvfilm.com/faq.htm

-> Do you do PAL transfers? Is PAL better than NTSC?

Yes, we do PAL transfers from any video format. PAL is slightly better than NTSC because the overall resolution is 20% better. The only bad part is your film is slowed down by 4% when transferred to film (however we harmonize the soundtrack so the pitch remains the same)

[MvB]

Couldn't open the page you indicated. But i think from the name this is a company that transfers your home video to DVD. This is a private solution from this company for you at home and doesn't fit the commercial solution, where it's a fact that the commercially sold DVDs with Cinema movies on it are running too fast with no correction of the pitch.

[dingo]

"1. How much does it cost to transfer to film?

For short films, about $325/minute for 35mm; sound, negatives, and print all included. $225/minute for 16mm. A feature-length transfer to 35mm can be as low as $20,000 (75 min) or $13,000 for 16mm (75 min). "

Too expensive for my home video !!!

This company transfer video to film but when it is film to video, it's the same process.

I have tested and you're right when you say that there is no correction when American movies (NTSC master tapes) are converted to PAL video for DVD.

I'm sure that when you convert a film directly to PAL video (like french film on zone 2 DVD), there is sometimes a frequencies correction. (I talk about professional movies obviously)
So when you convert this dvd to NTSC, the pitch is sometimes a bit lower that original movie.

But it's not very disturbing for me (surely less that the too fast speed that you describe)

Anyway now i'm using you your method and i'm very grateful