@Tobias: SSA Support in OGM = Fansubber Solution

[AllTimeSToneD]

Hi Tobi :)

After some chatting with my staff members and members from other Anime-Fansubber groups and also with Neo-Neko :) i got the idea if it could be possible to added SSA support in the OGM Format because i think (and it isn't only me) that the AVI Format is outdated :rolleyes: And should end in Trash since we got OGM ^_^

Inburned subs arn't really the best way for supporting the Unlicensed shows. With SSA support in OGM we could release our shows with more then just one language.
The most Fansubber groups have translators which could translate in more Languages then just in English.

This is just one advantage of the support.

The overlayed subs increase the amount of video bandwidth necessary to get a good result.
The in-film subs increase the amount of video bandwidth necessary to get a good result
Overlayed would resolve this problem

Neo-Neko told me that it could be a possibile since there is the VirtualDub plugin which renders SSA scripts easiely. :)

I got the specs for SSA here http://www.eswat.demon.co.uk/downloads/format.zip Please take a look :)

I hope that its possible since SSA is also a Free Format, and OGM would become more Interisting then yet :D

-------------------------------------------
Sorry for my trash English :) I hope u understand it
AllTimeSToneD <-- A truly XviD/OGM lover

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by AllTimeSToneD
The overlayed subs increase the amount of video bandwidth necessary to get a good result.
The in-film subs increase the amount of video bandwidth necessary to get a good result
Overlayed would resolve this problem


What was meant was that the in-film subs consume excess bitrate because of their sharp contrast and outlines. It makes it much harder to get a good result with encoded video. Overlayed subs like what you have done are a godsend. No bitrate is wated to encode them. The video can get the full video bitrate.

The current format supported by your plugin is the common one used by DVD ripping software. But the fansub sceen of which I am very fond of use a program called Substation Alpha to do their subtitling. The author has doccumentation on his home page about the script format. To date there is no software to convert this format to another. If it is possible to add support for Substation alpha scripts to your subtitle filter it would be a boon to the fansub community. Something that they have been wanting and needing for quite some time.

With this ability they could make better rips and support more languages all in one file. Avery Lee's subtitler filter for virtualdub will open read and embed substation alpha rendered text in the video. Maybey it would be possible to make use of those routiens to add substation alpha support to your filters.

Anyway I know you do this in your free time from classes. I can relate a bit. But this is definatly something worth looking into. There is a whole community waiting in the wings for someone to do something of this sort. You are so close. ;)

[BlackSun]

I'll talk to Tobias about that, seems to be a good idea, and as PowerDivX 4 should also support it, I'll take a look :D

[bill_baroud]

this is the most advanced DirectShowFilter for SSA, which support the Advanced SSA (with a lot of fun effect =) ) designed by anime-fansub.org....

perhaps Tobias could take a look to this sources so or "work" with gabest for an implementation in OGM....that could be really great !!

[primitive]

I know of two ssa subtitle file "interpreters" that exist: dvobsub for ssa interpretation on playback, and the subtitler filter for vdub that will read the script file at encode-time and render the subtitles at encode-time.

With all the sharp edges, anime is already hard enough to encode; having to encode subtitles superimposed upon this already difficult to encode video is hell. You have no idea how many hours our encoder wastes chasing down macroblocks.

Our group's hasn't adopted ogg yet mostly because of this subtitle issue. If we could mux ssa subtitles in with the video like we can srt subtitles, we would dump avi like a bad habit.

HOWEVER

Srt subtitles are trivial to implement. Ssa subtitles are significantly harder to implement. Ssa subtitle files read more like a markup language than srt subtitle files, if you've ever looked at an ssa.

One more thing, which is probably the show-stopper issue for ssa support. When I hardsub a movie, the people who download that movie don't have to have all the fonts I used during the encode for the movie to look right. Lots of fansubbers enjoy using custom fonts for their encoding; these fonts would either have to be distributed with the video file (interleaved within the ogg, perhaps?) or not used at all.

[Neo Neko]

Sacrifices might have to be made. But I am just as happy with a nice serif sans-serif or courier. Custom fonts are good for letterhead or logos. But they can be a pain to read enmasse.

[Tronic]

I don't know SSA and I don't have anything that would let me view RTF-files.

Anyway, MCF has two systems for subtitles:

1) UTF-8 text:
http://mcf.sourceforge.net/trackt.htm#0x11
Some formatting can be used, and positioning (top or bottom of the picture) is also possible, but font, size, etc. are user-configurable. Also, the actual position is user-configurable, and can be outside the video.

2) Images: each subtitle is a lossless image, just like in DVD. The format used will either be PNG or our own format (not decided yet).
http://mcf.sourceforge.net/trackt.htm#0x10
Free positioning over video is possible. Also, partly player-controlled positioning outside video (on the black bars) is possible.

Option #1 is preferred, thanks to its better configurability, space-efficiency, etc.

Option #2 is mainly for lazy DVD rippers who don't want to do OCR. It also allows using custom fonts or logos.

[Belgabor]

@primitive: afaik, the more 'fancy' effects are usually only used in ops or eds and very special scenes, so how about 'hardcoding' the subs into the video just on those scenes and using a 'spiced up' srt variant for the rest of the movie? (spiced up meaning a varaint that supports colors and placement, somewhat like the MCF option 1 Tronic mentioned)

Having the 'main sub font' user selectable is imho a big plus, since I'm completely with Neo Neko on the 'fancy fonts for subs' issue. (see Rah Xephon by hqa & anbu for example. this font is a real pain to read imho)

Regards
Belgabor

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by Tronic
I don't know SSA and I don't have anything that would let me view RTF-files.


I take it you are not on Windows. Might I sugest Staroffice -> www.sun.com or it's opensource version Openoffice at -> www.openoffice.org. They are the best cross platform office suites in the world! I have used Staroffice happily for several years now. And I recently installed Openoffice. At this point it is basically the same thing as the Staroffice 6 betas. But if Mozilla is any indication expect good things to come!

[Tronic]

Well, Mozilla really has improved a lot during last two years, and is now definately the best browser around (if not counting Galeon and others based on it).

But Star/OpenOffice still seriously sucks. It crashes most of the time, is slow as hell, the equation editor is badly broken, etc. That's why I don't have it installed. WordView (or whatever) might be a good solution for this, but I haven't installed it since I need to view RTF/DOC very rarely.

[Neo Neko]

I have had little to no problem with Staroffice or Openoffice ever. But what ever it takes man! I will convert it to ASCII. You want EBCIDIC you got it. UTF? Can do. Esperanto ok there you are on your own.

[Rasqual]

While it's true that SSA is the most used format, I don't think it would be the best choice /* for the MCF format */, at least in its latest specification. The problem is that the format as described by Kotus is OK for general purposes but not for more advanced techniques like Karaoke, or uncommon effects on text. Actually, most fansub groups use Avery Lee's plugin which supports extended effects and have to manually recode time tags for doing karaoke. Instead, I suggest moving to something more evolved. A "mutant" solution would be to use the ASS format as described in a technical paper (derived from Kotus') from the Vobsub package. I don't know who wrote it but I think Gabest surely does. He coded TextSub, another solution to make burnt-in subs, based on Avery Lee's source code, and is IMHO a very good programmer.

Something more normative would be to restart from scratch and design a XML-compatible format. It would be a pain to start, yet it would be the best solution, as this would solve the problems with charset encodings. However, as long as no one is willing to code a replacement to Sub Station Alpha, the SSA format will reign. I repeat: we also need sub editors for this new format if we want it to stand a chance of really being used!

I know what you may be thinking: this guy talks a lot and doesn't act much. Well that's true, I can't code myself: I'm a very bad programmer! :o

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Rasqual
[I know what you may be thinking: this guy talks a lot and doesn't act much. ... not true, your input is highly appreciated.
Well that's true, I can't code myself: I'm a very bad programmer! :o ... same here :( ....

[BlackSun]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW

... same here :( ....

Me too :D

[NoLogo]

Sorry, don't know if this post perfecty suits with this thread, but it talks about OGM and subtitles so...
I have a little request to Tobias: would it be possible to add an "antialiasing" option in SubTitDS, cause subtitles look quite dirty with the actual filter. Maybe i chose wrong fonts or size, but Arial + size15 + bold is pretty pixelized.
Hope my request doesn't sound too rough...not my intention.

Keep going that way, everything's fine.

Regards
NoLogo

[mustaneekeri]

Originally posted by NoLogo
Sorry, don't know if this post perfecty suits with this thread, but it talks about OGM and subtitles so...
I have a little request to Tobias: would it be possible to add an "antialiasing" option in SubTitDS, cause subtitles look quite dirty with the actual filter. Maybe i chose wrong fonts or size, but Arial + size15 + bold is pretty pixelized.
Hope my request doesn't sound too rough...not my intention.

Keep going that way, everything's fine.

Regards
NoLogo

I really prefer external subs myself, with BSPlayer u can have antialised and even black edged font if u just have external .sub file.

[Belgabor]

Originally posted by mustaneekeri


I really prefer external subs myself, with BSPlayer u can have antialised and even black edged font if u just have external .sub file.

I cant imagine that any fansubbing group I know of would do this, as it would be exacly like distroing raws and scrpits, on which almost all groups have a 'ban-on-ask' policy in their channels ;)

Besides it would only lead to more questions instead of less.

Belgabor

[Rasqual]

Originally posted by Belgabor


I cant imagine that any fansubbing group I know of would do this, as it would be exacly like distroing raws and scrpits, on which almost all groups have a 'ban-on-ask' policy in their channels ;)

Besides it would only lead to more questions instead of less.

Belgabor

You are probably true, bud.
I think that even if there is a possibility to have external subs, fansubbers will still use in-film subs. I think one of the reasons is to try to prevent piracy by South Eastern Asian VCD companies, another is the risk that a group claims the works done by another, e.g. when licensed shows keep on being distroed/rlzd by "rogue" groups while they shouldn't.

Finally, another issue is the compatibility of the rendered scripts: not everyone has the same font sets, therefore it will be a problem if the script requires fonts that are too "exotic". A way to circumvent this would be including the fonts' outlines (as SVG or PNG, I dunno), but then
. copyright problems (font owners)
. overhead

[Belgabor]

Well, a possible (imho ideal ;)) solution, as I already tried to say, would be to 'burn in' (= encode) the subs/group logo/karaoke on the op/ed and mux in the dialog subs as a separate stream, in which the user could at least select the font.

Belgabor

[HarryM]

I want only these (minimal) atributes:
bold (actually present in OGM), itallica (actually present in OGM), subtitle location- top of frame, subtitle location- bottom of frame.

These atributes are standardly in subtitles on DVD.

[yoshikunai]

I would add/modify to HarryM's short list to support positioning for the instances in which more than one person is talking at the same time, and both need to be translated. (if you don't have a set position for each talking person, the subs can kind of bounce up and down)

EDIT: .srt can support positioning, but .srt files that have position information in them don't mux into .ogm's, or else cause the .ogm's to crash upon playback. (using graphedit or oggmux to mux, v1.1.2.2, windows XP, Radeon 64 MB VIVO)

Color would also be handy for this, but I know that's on Tobias' to do list.

On kind of a side note, I've noticed that DVobSub 2.16 displays .srt's muxed with Sub Parser really quite well (and looks fantastic, though it doesn't support the html tags) -- would it be possible to mux in other formats into .ogm's? I'm not altgoether certain what DVobSub can read, but it seems like .srt is a pretty limited format compared to others, esp. SSA for instance (which I know has been talked about).

Just my two cents. I too have no idea what programming would be involved in these undertakings, take these encoder's suggestions with a grain of salt. Thank you for advancing the evolution of the subtitle. :)

[Belgabor]

Well, the biggest problem I think (without having deeper knowledge to how the sub stream is stored in the avi/ogm) is that ssa can be incontinous (meaning eg that the sub for timecode 10:00 can be in the ssa file AFTER a sub for timecode 15:00), so what we would need is a parser that resorts the subs into a continous stream.

On the other hand i might be entirely wrong ;) (eg if the subs are stored in one batch and the sub-display-filter is responsible for sorting stuff out)

Cheers
Belgabor

[primitive]

I have been doing some googling, looking for any XML subtitle DTD and not finding any. I think that an XML subtitle DTD would be a fantastic idea, so much so that I would be willing to help people code an editor if someone else could hack together the DTD (because I know jack for shit about XML, but I could code an editor :)

As far as I can see, a new subtitling solution would have three components:

- subtitle file format (xml dtd)
- subtitle editor
- plugin for <avisynth|vdub>

Shit, you'd probably have to have an integrated utility for timing too if you wanted anyone to use it...

[mf]

SAMI (*.smi) is XML-based. Dunno what features it has though.. And now hold your breath, it's by M$! :p

Anyway, XML would be nice for a new format.

[primitive]

Originally posted by mf
SAMI (*.smi) is XML-based. Dunno what features it has though.. And now hold your breath, it's by M$! :p

Anyway, XML would be nice for a new format.

Hell, it's XML. I don't care if it's Microsoft or not, if it's XML and it's expected to be useful, it's got to have a DTD that we can high jack.

I'll run and find the DTD :-D

*edit*
I found some information about SAMI / SMIL on the web; it looks like it'd be about as streamable as SRT if done correctly. SAMI looks like it'd be more straightforward to work with, and SMIL looks much more powerful. Also, it might be possible to stream demuxed SAMI into a DirectShow filter, but a cursory inspection of MSDN didn't make clear whether this would be possible or not.

[Defiler]

I also greatly desire at least a subset of SSA support in OGM files.
I'd like to see at least color and position, if not the rest of the fairly complicated SSA format.
Right now I'm in the process of doing an encode of the Initial D movie. In my script (which I had to OCR, because there don't appear to be any for this DVD..) there are quite a few instances of one person interrupting another, or finishing a sentence for them. In SSA, I simply change the second speaker's text to green, so that it's obvious where the switch occurs.
If I use MaestroSBT to convert back to SRT files, I lose this information.

Slightly off topic, but I'd like to point out that OggMux seems to crash when you attempt to include both Chapters and Subtitles. One or the other is fine, but never both at once.

Another great reason to use OGM subs:
With hard subs, DVD2AVI -> AVIsynth -> VirtualDub XviD -> OggMachine -> OggMux, the movie takes 8 hours to encode on my Athlon XP 1800+. Being able to enable Fast Recompress would cut that in half. Indeed, you could probably do the entire project within Gordian Knot, at that point.

The fansub group policy on releasing scripts never made any sense to me. Start with the following truths:
1. Fansubs are for fans, by fans.
2. HK VCD makers WILL release VCDs, regardless of whether they have an English script or not.
3. Running OCR on a video to extract timed subs is NOT that hard.
4. Soft-sub videos can be higher quality with smaller file sizes, and are much faster to encode.

I can't think of a single reason, other than pride, to keep fansubs scripts (timed or otherwise) secret.

[primitive]

Originally posted by Defiler
Another great reason to use OGM subs:
With hard subs, DVD2AVI -> AVIsynth -> VirtualDub XviD -> OggMachine -> OggMux, the movie takes 8 hours to encode on my Athlon XP 1800+. Being able to enable Fast Recompress would cut that in half. Indeed, you could probably do the entire project within Gordian Knot, at that point.

Umm, why couldn't you use Fast Recompress anyway? Use VobSub in avisynth to hardsub the video; it's got SSA support. You can then just Fast Recompress the video in vdub.

-p

[Defiler]

Originally posted by primitive

Umm, why couldn't you use Fast Recompress anyway? Use VobSub in avisynth to hardsub the video; it's got SSA support. You can then just Fast Recompress the video in vdub.Ooh!
Thanks for the tip. I knew I was doing something stupid.
I my particular case, I use the "Deinterlace - Smooth" filter, so I'll have to wait for an AVIsynth version of that..

[primitive]

Originally posted by Defiler
Ooh!
Thanks for the tip. I knew I was doing something stupid.
I my particular case, I use the "Deinterlace - Smooth" filter, so I'll have to wait for an AVIsynth version of that..

I truthfully have no idea what "Deinterlace - Smooth" does, but if you didn't know about VobSub you also might not know about Decomb, which is the best deinterlacing tool I've seen yet. It's for avisynth.

-p

*edit

There's also a way to use vdub's plugins through avisynth. I don't know exactly how it's done, but I do know it's possible.

[Defiler]

I knew about VobSub, I had just never used it from within AVIsynth.

Deinterlace - Smooth takes fields as input, rather than frames.
It requires the "SeparateFields" statement in your AVIsynth script.
If you started with a 720x480 input, 1000 frames long, VirtualDub will then see a 720x240 file, 2000 frames long.
Deinterlace - Smooth will turn this into a 720x480 file, 2000 frames long, with double the framerate. It's the "most perfect" method of deinterlacing you can perform, but it does require more CPU power on the decoder end of things.

It works very very well for PAL sources, and is still extremely good for NTSC.
At the moment, it requires a VirtualDub filter.
http://home.bip.net/gunnart/video/#deinterlacesmooth
However, I've seen mention of an AVIsynth equivalent a few times on this forum..
After using this plugin, DVD2AVI "Force Film" on progressive DVDs just doesn't look smooth anymore. Impressive stuff.

[primitive]

Originally posted by Defiler
I knew about VobSub, I had just never used it from within AVIsynth.

Deinterlace - Smooth takes fields as input, rather than frames.
It requires the "SeparateFields" statement in your AVIsynth script.
If you started with a 720x480 input, 1000 frames long, VirtualDub will then see a 720x240 file, 2000 frames long.
Deinterlace - Smooth will turn this into a 720x480 file, 2000 frames long, with double the framerate. It's the "most perfect" method of deinterlacing you can perform, but it does require more CPU power on the decoder end of things.

It works very very well for PAL sources, and is still extremely good for NTSC.
At the moment, it requires a VirtualDub filter.
http://home.bip.net/gunnart/video/#deinterlacesmooth
However, I've seen mention of an AVIsynth equivalent a few times on this forum..
After using this plugin, DVD2AVI "Force Film" on progressive DVDs just doesn't look smooth anymore. Impressive stuff.

Sounds like a good deinterlacing technique, if you could even call it that. But double the framerate? That's too cpu- and space-intensive for me; since my target is typically an entire anime movie on one CD, with multiple language and subtitle tracks, 60fps video is straight out ;)

Try decomb for avisynth sometime, it's a good tool.

-p

[Defiler]

I like Decomb a great deal. I've just started using this new method because it yields beautiful results.
In my testing, it seems like you end up using about 30% more space for these output files than you would for a standard framerate movie. Also, you need the equivalent of a P3-750 or 800 in order to get perfect playback. I never need to play them anywhere with less CPU power than that, and I don't know anyone locally with less than 800MHz, so it's no problem for me.

[primitive]

Originally posted by Defiler
I like Decomb a great deal. I've just started using this new method because it yields beautiful results.
In my testing, it seems like you end up using about 30% more space for these output files than you would for a standard framerate movie. Also, you need the equivalent of a P3-750 or 800 in order to get perfect playback. I never need to play them anywhere with less CPU power than that, and I don't know anyone locally with less than 800MHz, so it's no problem for me.

(I use a 750mhz Duron in my workstation.)

A 60fps clip only takes up 30% more space than a 30fps clip?? I understand that it would take less than double the space, but I would think it would take up more space than that. What kind of encoding mojo do you use?

[Defiler]

It's just that two adjacent frames in a 60fps clip are very very similar indeed, when compared to two adjacent frames in a 30fps clip.
Try encoding them in "quality" mode in XviD, and the 60fps clip is only 30% larger.
Imagine a flip book with 100 pages. If you made a duplicate copy of each page and shoved them in, there wouldn't be more information stored in the flip book.. You'd just be flipping pages more often.
Of course, the frames are slightly different, or else there'd be no point in the whole exercise.. that's where the extra 30% comes from.

[bill_baroud]

@Defiler : if you want SSA script muxed in a OGM, you can (i think, not really tested that) do it with SubMux which came with VoBsub.

with the latest version (2.16) just drag&drop avi+ogg+ssa(or any format supported by Vobsub) in the app and mux it in a ogm...

if the person who want watch the movie have Vobsub (for directshow) installed, the movie will be displaying with the SSA rendering (all the effects etc...)

for my test with 2.14 : mux ogm + ssa in a another ogm don't really work (stream audio uncompressed) but i think with 2.16 and avi+ogg it might be work.


hope it helps

(don't know if Vobsub render the embedded SSA font)

[Kyo]

vobsub 2.16 +ssa +ogm = nice work Tobias! = All fansubs Happy!.

-se ya :)

[yoshikunai]

Kyo, you don't get the results described here?:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=151538#post151538

I've been trying to get the .ssa's in .ogm's to display with their style information (size, color, positioning), but those formatting details only display in .avi's for me. I'm using XP, I guess I might see if I can try it on another computer or two.

I really want to get the .ssa's to work in there! :)

[Kyo]

When i mux the ssa in the ogg, I choose the option none(buffer) also if i remind well i change the value of frequency but i think that this doesn't the trick :) Test and share your conclusions.

[bill_baroud]

if you want all the effect of SSA, DON'T PREBUFFER sub (by default the box is checked)

ja ne

[yoshikunai]

if you want all the effect of SSA, DON'T PREBUFFER sub (by default the box is checked)

You mean in DirectVobSub -> Misc -> Pre-buffer subpictures, right? That didn't seem to make a difference for me in either .avi or .ogm (although having Main -> Advanced Renderer checked was necessary for the .avi).

I couldn't find any 'frequency' setting in DirectVobSub settings either. Tried switching on and off a lot of DVobSub things on top of that -- any other suggestions? :) Or is something just weird with my computer? I don't believe I have any other filter interference that would be messing things up...

Thanks for the suggestions though, I'll keep trying...

[Kyo]

Really in my system doesn't say frequency but "frecuencia". yes i am spanish user :) and this option pop up when i hit the mux button.


-Kyo

[yoshikunai]

Really in my system doesn't say frequency but "frecuencia". yes i am spanish user and this option pop up when i hit the mux button.

I get a dialog box with this when I choose to mux to an avi file, do you get it when you mux to an .ogm also?

[Kyo]

Sip, I get it. ogm+ssa=dialog box :D

[yoshikunai]

I get the ogg multiplexer dialog box, but nothing with "frequency" or even "frecuencia" ;). What version are you using? I've tried 2.15 and 2.16, but haven't been able to find the Spanish language version. I can save the .ogm as an .avi (in the first thing that comes up when I click on mux, which is the box to enter the filename and filetype in) and everything works then, but it's an .avi and the sound is now > 500 MB :).

To clear things up: If I choose filetype .avi, the box you describe pops up, but if I select .ogm, I only get the Ogg Multiplexer dialog. Do you get both boxes when you choose .ogm?

Thanks for answering my continual stream of questions :)

[Kyo]

:)

I forgot to say that i save to .avi but my source is an ogm(audio+video) then i add the ssa and save as .avi and pop up the window. i hope this help :cool:

[Edit]
Ah crap the version! :) hehe is the 2.16

[yoshikunai]

Ah, yes, that explains a lot, thanks. :) So what you have in the end is an .avi, and not an .ogm, and that's why you can see the style and colors in an .ssa.

Peace!

[Kyo]

But I think that it is a .ogm because it has the vorbis audio (?)

[yoshikunai]

Well, when I do that (save a SubMux'ed .ogm to .avi), the filesizes end up being over 700 MB (from a 233 MB file), which I'm guessing means that submux decompresses the audio...or something (tag 0003 - couldn't find what that is). A 500 MB audio file for 24 minutes is more than PCM 48,000 khz would be I believe. The fact that I can open it in virtualdub also kind of convinces me that it isn't an .ogm...but do you get the same results?

This aspect of submux doubles as a convenient way to 'demux' the video, or at least put it into a format that can then be demuxed through virtualdub. (not that graphedit is that difficult)

[MuuMuu]

My apologies for bringing back an old thread (and going a bit off-topic), but I felt compelled to reply to this post.

Originally posted by Defiler
The fansub group policy on releasing scripts never made any sense to me. Start with the following truths:
1. Fansubs are for fans, by fans.
2. HK VCD makers WILL release VCDs, regardless of whether they have an English script or not.
3. Running OCR on a video to extract timed subs is NOT that hard.
4. Soft-sub videos can be higher quality with smaller file sizes, and are much faster to encode.

I can't think of a single reason, other than pride, to keep fansubs scripts (timed or otherwise) secret. [/B]

No matter what the quality of a fansub / translation may be, it's quite irritating to see your own efforts taken and applied elsewhere, almost always with your credit stripped. I do realize that it's rather hypocritical of me to say this as fansubbing involves taking the video source without permission, and then distributing what is essentially a bastardization of the original work with scripts that are often ridden with errors and mistranslations. However, it is something I've felt somewhat after seeing scanslations/subs I took part in producing 'misused' (if there really is such a thing in fansubs).

I agree that overlaid subs would help fansubbers tremendously from an encoding standpoint, but the whole thing with script redistribution and releasing what is essentially a raw encode (which is another thing that fansubbers seem to be reluctant of, though this is because of the petty competition between fansubbers that go completely against the 'spirit' of fansubbing that some people preach).

Welp, that's all.

Muu

[Defiler]

So you agree with me. There's no good reason, other than pride.