Wobbly Picture

[madmuppet]

I have just converted 6 films from DVD all new releses.
5 of them converted fine and the other
A Knights Tale shakes violently when played back on standalone DVD player.
It plays fine in PowerDVDXP4.
I have had this problem b4 and I was just wondering if anyone else had a fix for it.I have converted over 50 films now and out of them 3 or so have done this.
I am using the newest version of DVD2SVCD 1.0.8. Build 1 with CCE 2.5
I have deleted my log file but I am going to do a small chapter and post it when finished.
BTW
I was using all the default settings and had not played about with any of them.
They are all region 2 films.
Any help appreciated.

[markrb]

Does this apply to you?
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22886

Make sure you are NOT using anamorphic(no borders, encode as 16:9).



Until we see the log file I doubt we will be of much help.

Mark

[madmuppet]

Make sure you are NOT using anamorphic(no borders, encode as 16:9).

I did use this setting as that what was selected automatically by DVD2SVCD.
It worked fine on Head Over Heels I done earlier so I dont understand why that would cause a problem.
I am going to do another chapter not using this setting and see what the outcome is.
Will keep you posted.
Cheers

[madmuppet]

OK just finished a chapter using
4:3(no borders,encoded as 4:3) and it plays fine now.
However there is a kind of ghost around people when moving.
Whats causing that now ?
I think I will try the only aspect ratio I have left and see what happens.
Then I think I will go back to 1.0.7 Build 4.
Here is the log for the last one
--------------------------------------------------------
- 21/04/2001 23:15:14
- DVD to SVCD Conversion
- DVD2SVCD ver. 1.0.8 build 1
--------------------------------------------------------
Initializing
Initializing finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 21/04/2001 23:15:18
- Free on drive C: 21267.81 mb
- Internal rip
--------------------------------------------------------
Preparing vobfiles to be ripped:
- C:\Documents and Settings\Gary\Desktop\A knights\VTS_03_1.vob
- C:\Documents and Settings\Gary\Desktop\A knights\VTS_03_2.vob
- C:\Documents and Settings\Gary\Desktop\A knights\VTS_03_3.vob
- C:\Documents and Settings\Gary\Desktop\A knights\VTS_03_4.vob

Ripping: C:\Documents and Settings\Gary\Desktop\A knights\VTS_03_1.vob
Ripping finished. Speed: 977

--------------------------------------------------------
- 21/04/2001 23:16:11
- DVD2AVI
--------------------------------------------------------
Creating DVD2AVI INI file:
- C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD2\DVD2AVI\DVD2AVI.INI

Variable settings:
iDCT_Algorithm: 32-bit SSE MMX

Executing DVD2AVI.
Executing DVD2AVI. Commandline:
"C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD2\DVD2AVI\DVD2AVI.exe" -CS=2 -YR=1 -EXIT -OF=[C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\Movie\DVD2AVI_Project_file] -IF=[C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\Movie\VTS_03_1.vob]
Framerate: 25000
DVD2AVI processing done.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 21/04/2001 23:16:18
- Free on drive C: 21267.78 mb
- AUDIO Extraction
--------------------------------------------------------
Found AC3 stream id: 0x80
Filename: C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\Movie\Extracted_audio_1.ac3
Audio1 delay: -24 ms
Audio extraction finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 21/04/2001 23:16:22
- Free on drive C: 21267.78 mb
- AUDIO conversion
--------------------------------------------------------

Converting Audio to MP2. Filename: C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\Movie\Extracted_audio_1.ac3
Executing BeSweet. Commandline:
"C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD2\BeSweet\BeSweet.exe" -core( -input "C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\Movie\Extracted_audio_1.ac3" -output "C:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\Movie\Encoded_audio_1.mp2" -logfile "C:\PROGRA~1\DVD2SVCD\Movie\Encoded_audio_1.log" ) -azid( -L -3db -c normal -g max ) -ota( -d -24 ) -ssrc( --rate 44100 ) -2lame( -e -b 224 -m s )
Audio conversion of C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\Movie\Extracted_audio_1.ac3 finished.

Audio conversion finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 21/04/2001 23:16:49
- Free on drive C: 21267.78 mb
- Converting Pictures
--------------------------------------------------------
Converting: C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD2\cover3.jpg
Converting: C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD2\DefaultChangeCD.bmp
Finished converting pictures
--------------------------------------------------------
- 21/04/2001 23:16:59
- Free on drive C: 21267.78 mb
- Video Encoding using Cinema Craft
--------------------------------------------------------

Executing Cinema Craft Encoder.
StreamSectors: 833239988
AudioSectors: 2461116
VideoPAPO: 12869208
ScanOffsetBytes: 2450
SeqAligningBytes: 155737
DVDBytes: 0
VideoEndHeader: 4
SubtitleSectors: 0
EmptySectors: 238.00
PictureSectors: 300.00
PureMPEGStream: 817751473.07
Seconds: 86.68
CalcMPEGStream: 817751473.07
Frames: 2042
CDSize: 800.00
Cut point 795.00
Variable Settings:
Frames: 2042
Anti Noise Filter: 2
Passes: 4
Image Quality: 17
VAF file creation: On
Video Encoding Mode: Multipass VBR
Min. bitrate: 300
Max. bitrate: 2530
Avg. Bitrate: 2230
Closing program
CCE Max Speed: 1.150
Video Encoding finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 21/04/2001 23:23:40
- Free on drive C: 21291.48 mb
- Converting Pictures from ES to PS
--------------------------------------------------------
Saving bbMPEG settings: C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD2\bbMPEG\default.ini

Executing RunbbMPEG. Commandline:
"C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD2\bbMPEG\RunbbMPEG.exe" "C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\Movie\TitlePicture.bmp.mpg"
--------------------------------------------------------
- 21/04/2001 23:23:45
- Free on drive C: 21291.46 mb
- Converting Pictures from ES to PS
--------------------------------------------------------
Saving bbMPEG settings: C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD2\bbMPEG\default.ini

Executing RunbbMPEG. Commandline:
"C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD2\bbMPEG\RunbbMPEG.exe" "C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\Movie\ChangeCDPicture.bmp.mpg"
--------------------------------------------------------
- 21/04/2001 23:23:49
- Free on drive C: 21291.46 mb
- Multiplexing and cutting
--------------------------------------------------------
Saving bbMPEG settings: C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD2\bbMPEG\default.ini
Offset in Seconds: 2
Executing bbMPEG.
Variable Settings:
Movie offset: 2 seconds
Cut point: 795 mb

Executing RunbbMPEG. Commandline:
"C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD2\bbMPEG\RunbbMPEG.exe" "C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\Movie\bbMPEG_Muxed_File.mpg"
Multiplexing and cutting finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 21/04/2001 23:24:02
- Free on drive C: 21267.66 mb
- Determining length of audio
--------------------------------------------------------
Analyzing: C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\Movie\bbMPEG_Muxed_File00.mpg
79.334 seconds C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\Movie\bbMPEG_Muxed_File00.mpg
Analyzing finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 21/04/2001 23:24:08
- Free on drive C: 21267.66 mb
- Creating CD-Images using VCDXBuild
--------------------------------------------------------
- No. of chapters to create: 1

CD image #1: CD_Image_File_CD1.bin

Executing VCDXBuild. Commandline:
"C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD2\VCDImager\VCDXBuild.exe" --cue-file="C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\Movie\CD_Image_File_CD1.cue" --bin-file="C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\Movie\CD_Image_File_CD1.bin" "C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\Movie\VCDXBuild_Script_1.xml"
CD-Image creation finished.

--------------------------------------------------------
- 21/04/2001 23:24:15
- Free on drive C: 21267.66 mb
- SVCD Creation finished!
--------------------------------------------------------

[madmuppet]

Went back to old version and everything ok in both 4:3 & 16:9
Have now installed 1.0.8. Build 1 again and it works if I dont use anamorphic.
Why ?
I still have a problem of ghosting around people with
A Knight's Tale.
See log file above.
Any idea how I can improve the quality.Temporal smothing had no effect.
Thanks in advance.

[gerti67]

Hi madmuppet,

the new option to encode "Anamorphic (no borders, encoded as 16:9)" is only working on a few standalone DVD players because to fullfill the SVCD standard the MPEG2 stream must have a DAR (Display Aspect Ratio) of 4:3 - mandatory!

With this new setting you can force to flag the created MPEG2 stream with a DAR of 16:9 (like with most of the anamorphic DVDs) but since this is off the SVCD standard most of the standalones get confused and mess things up - resulting in the symptoms you already described.

The "4:3 (no borders, encoded as 4:3)" is equal to the old "4:3" aspect ratio option and the "16:9 (borders added, encoded as 4:3)" is the old "16:9" aspect ratio setting.

The only advantage in using the new "Anamorphic..." option for the aspect ratio is that the created SVCDs will show up correctly on a 4:3 TV set and on a 16:9 TV set if your standalone supports this setting because the standalone will do the letterboxing of the movie when using a 4:3 TV set.

This letterboxing (adding black borders) for a 4:3 TV set is done by DVD2SVCD when using the "16:9 (borders added, encoded as 4:3)" option so you wont get any egg-heads.

With the ghosting - hmm - what resize options did you use? (Simple, Bicubic, ..)

I've done the PAL version the other day and it was absolutely perfect (3 CDs, CBR 2450, Bicubic 0.00/0.60) - but I can't say anything for the NTSC version you seem to use.

Greetings,
Gerti

[madmuppet]

With the ghosting - hmm - what resize options did you use? (Simple, Bicubic, ..)
Simple resize m8.

I've done the PAL version the other day and it was absolutely perfect (3 CDs, CBR 2450, Bicubic 0.00/0.60) - but I can't say anything for the NTSC version you seem to use.

What do you mean the NTSC version I seem to use?
Its the PAL version I was converting
I have the DVD here and its a region 2.

[gerti67]

Hi again,

hmm I just had a look at the log to see if you were doing the PAL or the NTSC version and had a look at the frames of the chapter you have converted and it were 2042 frames. I divided that with the seconds (86.68) from the log and got 23.55 - and I thought this must be NTSC Film then - but seems I was just plain wrong. ;) (Mental note for the future: this method is not doing very well for a short chapter :D)

Ok, the SimpleResize is fast but it is also introducing ghosting (more than a BicubicResize with 0.00/0.60) - so you should try only a chapter with a BicubicResize - but make sure not to use the default settings with it (0.00/0.75) as these will sharpen the image too much and thus also will introduce more ghosting - and be aware that Bicubic is about 20% slower than SimpleResize.

The best results concerning the ghosting effects you will get with the BillinearResize - but it softens the image too much for me. But try on your own - beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Greetings,
Gerti

[madmuppet]

Thanks for all the help Gerti67
I will try a couple of chapters using the settings you recommended and see how they turn out.
I have used them in the past but found if coming from original DVD source the quality was usually just as good using simple resize.
However had a few like this and Bicubic done them fine.
I notice you used CBR at 2450 instead of a 4xVBR
Do you find you get a better quality using this.
Are you using CCE 2.5 like me ?
Cheers

[gerti67]

I used CBR for this one because it was something about 126 minutes if I remember correctly so I wanted to have 3 CDs for this one.

And with 128 kbit/sec Audio and 126 minutes 3 CDs DVD2SVCD calculated a bitrate of about 2450 for this movie. And if I get a calculated bitrate of over 2350 I usually do a CBR encode then - saves you plenty of time with no visual difference to a 4-pass VBR encode in this situation.

But make sure to raise the Max. avg bitrate also to 2450 then because if you leave it at 2230 then DVD2SVCD will use this as a upper boundary and will only do a 2230 kbit/sec CBR for the video.

Greetings,
Gerti

[madmuppet]

Thanks m8 I will do the whole film tomorrow using your settings.
Will let you know how it pans out.

[madmuppet]

Hi again gerti67
I used your setting and the result was very good.
There was still some slight ghosting round peoples heads though.
I take it it has something to do with the original DVD.
BTW
I forgot to ask if you used Temporal Smoothing with your settings on this movie as I never.
Thanks again m8

[gerti67]

Hi madmuppet,

I usually do not use the Temporal Smoother - perhaps only in rare situations when I need to fit a movie onto 2 CDs and the calculated bitrate is very low - let's say about 1650 for a 2.35:1 movie.

And yes, I forgot to mention I only use CCE 2.50 for the encoding of the video.

If you think the ghosting is still too much then perhaps lowering the Bicubic c value to 0.55 or even 0.50 might help a little more with additionally increasing the CCE noise filter also.

If you're intersted in optimizing your visual results have a look at this thread if not already done as Mark did plenty of testing on it:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=22696

Greetings,
Gerti

[markrb]

madpuppet is it ghosting or more like clear noise along the edge of things in the front? It will look a little blocky?

If it's this do the encode again with most of the settings the same, but increase Image Quality Priority to at least 24 and try it again.

A qoute from the CCE manual:

When the value is close to 0, the mosquito noise at the edges (noise causing hazy part along the edges, looking like flying mosquitoes) is less outstanding, but the contouring noise (noise which looks like contour line patterns, which appear in flat and wide areas, such as a dark background) is more outstanding. The opposite occurs when the value is closer to 100.

Most of the time the default setting is fine, but sometimes it just isn't.

Mark

[madmuppet]

Thanks markrb and gerti67 for the replies.
I am doing The Score at the moment but I will rencode a chapter of
A Knights Tale again when finished.

madpuppet is it ghosting or more like clear noise along the edge of things in the front? It will look a little blocky?
Yes markrb that is exactly right.
I will retry with image quality at 24.
How much will this slow down the process ?
Not that bothered really as 2hr 6min film using these settings only took about 3 and a half hours :)

If you think the ghosting is still too much then perhaps lowering the Bicubic c value to 0.55 or even 0.50 might help a little more with additionally increasing the CCE noise filter also
I will try playing about with these settings also gerti67.
Thanks again.
Much appreciated.
Off to read marks thread now for further info.

[madmuppet]

Hi just done another chapter of A Knights Tale
Set Image Quality at 25 and Bicubic c at 0.55 and CCE noise filter to 5.
This done the trick.
Image quality was improved quite a lot but I thought there was some softening of the picture.
Will play around with them some more.
Read your thread markrb.
Trying to figure it out still.Its a bit over my head but I will give it a try anyway.
The moral of the story is:-
If at first you dont succeed try,try and then ***** ask someone else how to do it right :) lol

[markrb]

Dropping the Bicubic will soften the image.

What changing the Image Qaulity Priority higher does is to dedicate more bits to the flat areas. Usually this is background. This has the effect of reducing the noise around people in the front.

A very respected poster here once told me he does not do any movie below 24.

I used to think if I lowered this number it would make the picture better, but I was wrong. It's all about balance.

Personally I use Bicubic .60 and most of the time 17, but sometimes I up it to 24.

I also use a filtre called sharpen, but it's complicated. It was linked to above.

Mark

[madmuppet]

Hi markrb I think you hit the nail on the head.
Its all about balance and I will strive to find the perfect balance but I fear it will change from movie to movie depending on the type of action.
I have been trying to figure out your sharpen filter but I think its going to take me weeks.
Not much of a programmer :(