AC3 in MP4! [Archive] - Doom9's Forum

Gawen

18th April 2002, 09:47

For my best knowledge the ISO supported Codecs for MP4 are: AAC LC, AAC Main, AAC LTP, AAC SSR, AAC LD, ER AAC (LD), CELP, TwinVQ and PCM raw.

Nobody knows yet what future hardware players will support. The only leads i found were from Ivan Dimkovic (Psytel):

Originally posted by Ivan Dimkovic

Audio object types supported are MPEG-4 audio object types:

AAC (Main, LC, SSR, Error Resilient, Low Delay, Scalable...), TwinVQ (VQF), CELP (Speech Codec), Synthetic Audio (similar to midi/wavetable) and even PCM data - you can put as many audio objet tracks as you want...
Ivan Dimkovic seems to recommend AAC-LC for now:

Originally posted by JohnV
Yes, Ivan also said to me that he recommends the use of LC-profile with MP4 streams, because it's the only profile supported by hardware devices (at least at the moment).

Of course multi-channel audio is also possible.

(Quotes from the developer forum on hydrogenaudio.org)

ChristianHJW

19th April 2002, 22:23

Thanks guys, very useful information ... reminds me i wnated to invite ivan to come here by time ...

Neo Neko

21st April 2002, 00:24

Originally posted by Deptmaster
In some cases its not really worth it to me to re-compress the AC3 which is already fairly compressed in some cases (2channel@192kB/s) to save a little space and loose alot of quality. This is usually on the case with anime series and movies i cherish. But i do agree that 5channel AC3 on most filmed movies is necessary to downmix and re-compress so AAC is ideal in those cases.

I understand that AC3 whether it is 2 channel 5.1 or 7 it a 5:1 compression ratio. MP3 at average bit rates is usually about 10:1. And AAC can beat MP3 at lower bitrates than MP3. So by keeping the AC3 yes you would save time. But AC3 at 5:1 has relatively few errors or loss. And recompressing at a propper bit rate should incur very little loss. So recompressing to somethin like AAC would take a bit more time, but would leave me a ton more room to max out the bitrate on the video(Anime needs all the video bit reate it can get!). That way I could have the best visual quality as well as audio quality for my cherrished anime. A little extra time means nothing to me to get something done right. Did I get anything wrong?

canadian_fbi

21st April 2002, 04:23

if you kept the original ac3 along with a video stream like xvid, all you would have to do to get an mpeg-4 compliant file in the future when standalone players are available and such files become needed would simply be to transcode the audio to aac or something and then mux the new audio and old video streams together, right? and then you get to take advantage of the latest in aac encoding technology and whatnot, while not losing any of the original ac3 quality. so from this standpoint, regardless of whether or not mp4 supports ac3, it's the most flexible solution for the future.

LiFe

30th September 2006, 06:54

Is there now any official way of muxing AC3 into MP4?

I'm encoding my library with x264 @ Q24, which looks fantastic, but when I encode my 5.1 AC3 with nero cmd encoder at @0.30, which appears to be a good balance between size and quality, I end up with a 5.1 audio file within 100MBs of the AC3, so I may as well keep the origional.

Turns out AC3 seems to use about 64kb/s per channel? Which appears to be reasonably efficient?

TIA

bond

30th September 2006, 09:51

JohnV

25th January 2007, 08:15

Added a "Coming updates" -section for some hints what can be expected in the near future.

sjchmura

1st February 2007, 17:45

JohnV...

Anything more you can "share" or hint?

JohnV

5th February 2007, 17:31

NeroDigital Cinema-AVC and HDTV-AVC -profiles will have multichannel AC3 support, so Nero Digital will support AC3 in MP4.
It's gonna take some months, but should be here before the summer 2007.

JohnV

5th February 2007, 17:44

JohnV...

Anything more you can "share" or hint?
I'll do regular updates to the new section.
One remarkable thing is that Cinema-AVC and HDTV-AVC NeroDigital profiles will be officially supporting multichannel AC3 audio. I think this will be a special interest for many who want to archive HDTV tv-streams, or re-encode (unencrypted) blu-ray/hd-dvd into smaller size stream. Skipping the re-encoding of the audio to AAC will also speed up the overall encoding process.
The AC3 support for NeroDigital MP4 will come before the summer.

JarrettH

5th February 2007, 17:51

Those changes we all forgot about last month...

Version number 2.4.5.0

Release Date: 01-18-2007
Changes/Bugfixes

* Under Windows, the Data Files tab was not correctly drawn in Aero mode

Version number 7.7.5.1

Release Date: 01-18-2007
Changes/Bugfixes

* Under Windows Vista, Windows Movie Maker crashed if Nero was running in a few cases
* Burning a compilation to the image recorder was not possible in some cases
* Improved AC3 encoding
* Preview of AC3 files was not possible in some cases
* Nero Burning ROM could not always read the previous session of a multisession disc
* The size bar was not updated when using "continue multisession disc" feature
* Audio books could not be burned on CDs in some cases
* A misleading error message was displayed when trying to use a folder that did not exist

Is Nero embarrassed about these updates? Why are changes posted 3 weeks later? :devil:

Drachir

5th February 2007, 18:30

NeroDigital Cinema-AVC and HDTV-AVC -profiles will have multichannel AC3 support, so Nero Digital will support AC3 in MP4.
It's gonna take some months, but should be here before the summer 2007.

Just of interest, are there any plans by Nero to register this at http://www.mp4ra.org/ or to bring this up at a MPEG meeting?
This might be not an bad idea for Vobsub too.

SeeMoreDigital

5th February 2007, 19:06

NeroDigital Cinema-AVC and HDTV-AVC -profiles will have multichannel AC3 support, so Nero Digital will support AC3 in MP4.
It's gonna take some months, but should be here before the summer 2007.That sounds promising...

Shame the implementation wont be extended to some of the MPEG-4 Part-2 profiles as well. Or can they?

the mp4 muxer on my site supports mp3, aac and ac3 input.. I cannot guarantee that standalones will eventually support that.. very much is still in the designing phase.. Are you no longer intending to carry on using MP4Box for muxing Doom9?

SeeMoreDigital

5th February 2007, 19:08

Just of interest, are there any plans by Nero to register this at http://www.mp4ra.org/ or to bring this up at a MPEG meeting?
This might be not an bad idea for Vobsub too.How about their chapter implementation?

Cheers

mediator

5th February 2007, 20:07

Shame the implementation wont be extended to some of the MPEG-4 Part-2 profiles as well. Or can they?

ASP is covered already. So what do you mean exactly?

SeeMoreDigital

5th February 2007, 20:21

ASP is covered already. So what do you mean exactly?JohnV was referring to providing multichannel AC3 support within .MP4 for use with their CinemaAVC and HDTVAVC profiles. And sadly not for use with their CinemaASP, or "Main Profiles" as they like to call them.

Cheers

bond

6th February 2007, 00:04

will nerodigital devices now not need to support aac anymore? what about multichannel aac?

why does nero not simply use .mov? because the extension .mp4 is more funkier? and why dont you use .mpg with avc and ac3 like hddvd does?

bond

6th February 2007, 00:06

Skipping the re-encoding of the audio to AAC will also speed up the overall encoding process.
The AC3 support for NeroDigital MP4 will come before the summer.yeah, saving 7 minutes is a good thing for skipping interoperability :p

edit: JohnV, you shouldnt forward every nonsense request you hear on boards to your developers and bosses

JohnV

6th February 2007, 09:09

will nerodigital devices now not need to support aac anymore? what about multichannel aac?Sure they need. Multichannel AC3 is just added for flexibility for the 2 highest AVC profiles.
why does nero not simply use .mov? because the extension .mp4 is more funkier? and why dont you use .mpg with avc and ac3 like hddvd does.Nero Digital uses .mp4, it has been set long ago. But it's possible that our encoding software will include larger scale encoding support for different purposes in the future.. ;)

JohnV

6th February 2007, 09:13

yeah, saving 7 minutes is a good thing for skipping interoperability :p

edit: JohnV, you shouldnt forward every nonsense request you hear on boards to your developers and bosses Any speed up is a good thing, especially if you want to include multiple audio streams, though our next AAC encoder version should be 20-25% faster. :)

Sorry bond but you are wrong, this was not my idea nor my forwarding, but it is a very good idea, since many people want to preserve the original AC3 track of HDTV tv-streams and use AVC (very clear trend out there), don't have to use mkv, and future hardware supporting these specific 2 high profile ND-AVC profiles will play it.. ;) You can always keep interoperability by using AAC if you want, this is just added flexibility and choise for users. And notice that this AC3 option will be available only for the 2 highest Nero Digital AVC-profiles, not for Nero Digital ASP or "lower" AVC-profiles.

Hopefully also Haali, MPC's and VLC's etc. splitters will add support for this new addition when it comes out. :)

sillKotscha

6th February 2007, 11:47

[...] it is a very good idea, since many people want to preserve the original AC3 track of HDTV tv-streams and use AVC (very clear trend out there) [...] You can always keep interoperability by using AAC if you want, this is just added flexibility and choise for users. [...]

and this is why I always wondered about the whole discussion why AC3 shouldn't be added to mp4... it is a question of private choice - from a technical point of view this might_be nonsense... but it seems to be a way to go for a huge company like Ahead... if SAP's will support it and (future) sales figures entitle to do so... hm, why not :)

SeeMoreDigital

6th February 2007, 13:16

Like Bond, I was not keen about the idea of incorporationd AC3 into MP4.

However, since owning a few MP4 capable hardware devices (two with NeroDigital support), it's become clear to me that the majority of end-users are totally baffeled as to why their surround sound amplifiers can't accuratlely decode the (6Ch AAC) audio element of Recode2 generated streams.

When you try to explain to them that surround sound amplifiers don't actually include AAC decoder chip-sets, only DolbyDigital/AC3 and DTS decoder chip-sets. And that in order to hear 6Ch AAC audio streams correctly, they'll have to use their players/amplifiers 6Ch analouge connections instead (if indeed they have them, most devices don't), most end-users response is: "no thanks, I'll stick with using .AVI" or "I think I'll wait for MKV to be supported in stand-alones".... Which is not good :(

More-over, now neither of the new high-def disc formats include AAC audio within their specifications, there's no urgency for surround sound amplifier manufacturers to include support for AAC decoding in their chip-sets.... Which is a great shame!

Personally I love using AAC audio. All my audio CD's are backed up to this format.... But amplifier manufacturers don't seem very enthusiastic about it. Hopefully their minds will be changed as and when the specifications for DAB 2 (radio) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_radio#DAB_version_2) are sorted.

Cheers

Sharktooth

6th February 2007, 19:38

ah... i smell EVOs...

bond

6th February 2007, 19:41

if i would have an avc and ac3 stream i would place them in .mpg/.evo, cause it will have a bigger change to be handled on hardware players than a strange .mp4 with ac3 audio...

JohnV

7th February 2007, 01:35

if i would have an avc and ac3 stream i would place them in .mpg/.evo, cause it will have a bigger change to be handled on hardware players than a strange .mp4 with ac3 audio...The point here is Nero Digital uses .mp4 and was set long ago, not what you would do. But if you need something else, I think remuxing shouldn't be impossible..

ChronoCross

7th February 2007, 02:00

I think the problem is AC3 in mp4 is not part of the spec for mp4. So now special workarounds in every demuxer has to be made.

sillKotscha

7th February 2007, 03:16

specs are nice for the vast majority of hardware producers ... but ahead/ nero build their own units thus are able to play their own content... if the user/ buyer is satisfied with the result - TRUE 5.1 digital sound without analogue loop ways - the user is the last one who cares about specs ;)

Sharktooth

7th February 2007, 03:18

well, i wouldnt call them "workarounds" but support for AC3 private streams.
Private streams are also in the specs, so it's not completely out of specs...
It's just a "private" solution but since there are tons of ac3 decoders it would suffice to implement private streams parsing in the splitter and "connect" the ac3 decoder when necessary.

SeeMoreDigital

7th February 2007, 11:41

Yep... that's right..

Unlike with situation with the .AVI container, it's not like "private streams" in .MP4 are an out-and-out hack ;)

The placing of VOBsubs subtitles within MP4 as a "private stream" has, by all accounts, proved to be a very useful implementation. As it makes use of the original subtitle decoder engine, installed within all MPEG-4/DVD players.

Placing AC3 within MP4 as a private stream and have it use the original AC3 (or even DTS) decoder engine, installed within all MPEG-4/DVD players seems a very logical step forward.... And far more understandable for end-users.

SeeMoreDigital

7th February 2007, 11:44

I guess these last few posts would be better placed in this thread: -

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=23084

Mtz

7th February 2007, 11:53

Ok, if this posts will be moved I'll post also my opinion: Nero was "forced" by some manufacturers of standalone player chipsets to support AC3 in their MP4. I think they made a good decision.

enjoy,
Mtz

foxyshadis

7th February 2007, 13:31

Perhaps, instead of flouting the standards, what's really happening is a forced evolution of the format, hopefully on a sponsored standards track. Although my first instinct is to agree with bond, it almost seems that AC3, Vobsub, and MPEG-2 were deliberately kept out of the mp4 format to keep it from competing with DVD/HD. If others follow nero's private standards, it isn't so bad, provided they tell us how to mux compliantly.

SeeMoreDigital

7th February 2007, 14:28

... it almost seems that AC3, Vobsub, and MPEG-2 were deliberately kept out of the mp4 format to keep it from competing with DVD/HD. As far as I know, MPEG-2 and MPEG-1 video along with MP2 and MP3 audio is in the ISO 14496 specification.

easy2Bcheesy

7th February 2007, 21:46

Nero Digital Information Thread
updated 5th February 2007

Coming updates from Nero:
-HD-DVD, Blu Ray BDMV and AVCHD authoring support in NeroVision

This is pretty earth-shattering stuff. Any idea of any kind of timescale on this? Will we be able to encode our own content into AVC for these formats?

bond

7th February 2007, 23:37

what we need are official specs for placing ac3 in mp4, everything else is just private stuff having no chance to get "big" somewhen

JohnV

8th February 2007, 05:54

what we need are official specs for placing ac3 in mp4, everything else is just private stuff having no chance to get "big" somewhenSure it would be nice if it became official in MPEG4. But if that won't happen, this is better than no support. At least we'll now see support in both hardware and software for AC3 in MP4.

foxyshadis

8th February 2007, 06:48

Sure it would be nice if it became official in MPEG4. But if that won't happen, this is better than no support. At least we'll now see support in both hardware and software for AC3 in MP4.

He may have meant, from you. :p Private stream identification, indexing, interleaving, header storage method, frame header stripping if any, per-frame structure if necessary, any potential gotchas. With that, anyone can support your format.

Hyper Shinchan

9th February 2007, 17:18

Just of interest, are there any plans by Nero to register this at http://www.mp4ra.org/ or to bring this up at a MPEG meeting?
This might be not an bad idea for Vobsub too.

Yep, it will be really great. But I think that Nero isn't interested in mp4ra registration.... their profiles aren't registered (I mean the brand aren't registred, otherwise they aren't really the brand of a new specification) and the Vobsubs sample entry that they use for the subtitles isn't registered either. To don't mention the chapters stored in the udta box, of course XD
the mp4 muxer on my site supports mp3, aac and ac3 input..
Where can I find it? I've searched in the download page, but I haven't find it. Anyway at the moment Haali media splitter offers a directshow filter able to mux ac3 in mp4.

why does nero not simply use .mov? because the extension .mp4 is more funkier? and why dont you use .mpg with avc and ac3 like hddvd does?
Maybe coz Apple owns MOV and they can't change it as they like without occuring in "Steve's Wrath"? MP4 is based on MOV and Apple own the licenses but for example asking registration for an ISO media code or a QT code is different, the mp4ra says:
"Please note that Apple Computer owns and defines the QuickTime file format, and Apple Computer makes no promise or undertaking to accept applications, and the definition and use of codes in the QuickTime file format are at Apple's sole discretion. If your suggested code-point is already in use, or Apple considers that the suggested value is unsuitable, may be misleading, or is otherwise inappropriate, the authority may suggest an alternative value or refuse the registration, at its sole discretion.".

bond

9th February 2007, 19:27

placing ac3 in mov is nothing apple would want or could prevent and i assume ac3 streams in mov can already be created. actually placing ac3 in mov wouldnt also harm as mov is meant as a general purpose container and therefore a mess already. mp4 is (till now) not a mess

about the registration on mp4ra. nero is not interested to make their private stuff public. they want to create a (semi-)private format out of an open format. they did it with the chapters and vobsubs, they did it with the nero video profiles and they will do it with ac3 too. in the end they want to earn from selling "nero-format" devices. they dont earn anything by spreading 100% spec compliant files playable on the ipod or psp or other non-nero but mpeg-4 devices

in the end mp4 was designed to be an open standard, being playable on every mp4 player...

Hyper Shinchan

13th February 2007, 16:50

placing ac3 in mov is nothing apple would want or could prevent and i assume ac3 streams in mov can already be created. actually placing ac3 in mov wouldnt also harm as mov is meant as a general purpose container and therefore a mess already. mp4 is (till now) not a mess

I don't agree. Apple own the licenses of the MOV file format, and then if you want to use it (and adding a new codec) you've to ask permission (and pay licenses probably) to Apple. For example VirtualDub doesn't support any longer ASF because M$ owns the licenses and prevents them from "infringe" their licenses. But maybe I'm wrong, i'm not expert of these problems
Otherwise Nero is interested in promoving their software player (Nero Showtime) but for the large public MOV=QuickTime player.

About the mp4ra registration, well, you're probably right, they don't want to create true standards (well, Apple's shits too aren't really standard though they're registered at the authority that they run XD. For example ITunes metadata isn't specified anywhere).

in the end mp4 was designed to be an open standard, being playable on every mp4 player...
For this reason I was hoping in a MP4RA registration....

SeeMoreDigital

13th February 2007, 17:21

It it not a requirement of the MPEG-4 ISO specification, for any "private stream" implementation to be registered with the ISO/IEC.... Or are "private streams" by definition, totally "private"?

Cheers

JohnV

13th February 2007, 18:05

nero is not interested to make their private stuff public. they want to create a (semi-)private format out of an open format. they did it with the chapters and vobsubs, they did it with the nero video profiles and they will do it with ac3 too. in the end they want to earn from selling "nero-format" devices. they dont earn anything by spreading 100% spec compliant files playable on the ipod or psp or other non-nero but mpeg-4 devices.
Maybe you are right (though I can't say for sure). But even if you are right, why you always blame Nero? I mean it's a commercial company and the purpose is to make money for the owners and employees, and provide commercial as well as free solutions to people. You say yourself that Nero wouldn't make money otherwise, so what is so hard to understand?

Although I don't agree with you completely. You can make 100% spec compliant MP4 files with Nero Digital playable with iPod and others. Maybe not with the extra features, but still. If this wasn't possible, I think Nero Digital value would be considerably less..

Drachir

13th February 2007, 19:04

...You can make 100% spec compliant MP4 files with Nero Digital playable with iPod and others. ...
Well, I would say only 95% spec compliant.

There are some problems with the scene width and height inside the IOD with anamorphic streams. For more info look here: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1585831&group_id=84101&atid=571741

Also the width and height inside the TrackHeaderBox[tkhd] get set wrong with anamorphic video streams . For more info look here:
http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1597636&forum_id=327349

In files with 2 audio tracks you can't change to second track with an MPEG 4 Systems Player( with a real MP4 Player ;) ).

Subtittle don't get mentioned at all inside the Scene and OD track.

I am not sure if it is right to set the Main File Brand to avc1, and still to use the the .mp4 extension. Maybe some one should investigate that.

All I want to say is that it may help Nero if some of there engineer would go from time to time to a MPEG Meeting and talk with the people who write the pecs. It is one thing to read the spec and an other to talk to some one who knows what it should mean.

If Nero want to use only something based of the ISO based media format, it should write a Nero Brand into the Main File Brand and use a different extension.

This is just my opinion.

bond

13th February 2007, 22:32

I don't agree. Apple own the licenses of the MOV file format, and then if you want to use it (and adding a new codec) you've to ask permission (and pay licenses probably) to Apple..sorry, but this is simply not true

sjchmura

15th February 2007, 00:33

Anything more you can tell us????

Can you at least tell us (I have alot I wnat to archive from MPEG2/AC3 HDTV) if the MP4 (AVC+ac3) splitter will work with WMP11 and MCE2005/Vista.

This would eliminate the need for the MKV hack

mediator

18th February 2007, 08:59

Can you at least tell us (I have alot I wnat to archive from MPEG2/AC3 HDTV) if the MP4 (AVC+ac3) splitter will work with WMP11 and MCE2005/Vista.

The Nero MP4 Splitter works with any DirectShow application that uses automatic graphbuilding. Hence, there should also be no problem in WMP11 or MCE2005/Vista.

Hyper Shinchan

20th February 2007, 17:22

Well, I would say only 95% spec compliant.

I'd like remember that Nero uses that stupid metadata format used by Foobar that it's 100% out of standard.

sorry, but this is simply not true
Well, I'm not a lawyer, but I think that it's strange if you can use a file format (not regulated by ISO or open source licenses) without asking permission to the developpers....

Kurtnoise

20th February 2007, 21:06

I'd like remember that Nero uses that stupid metadata format used by Foobar that it's 100% out of standard.
So what ?

imo this is the *right* place to store these kind of things (by storing, I mean easier to read/write such datas) and this is entirely defined in the specs...

Well, I'm not a lawyer, but I think that it's strange if you can use a file format (not regulated by ISO or open source licenses) without asking permission to the developpers....
why having permission ? reverse-engineering is more interesting in this case. Regarding Apple : the firm supply a lot of things for developpers. Much more for Mac OS users for sure but huh this is more than nothing after all. Unfortunately, note also that Windows users don't have the same rights as Mac users (just one example : Qt aac encoder can be used w/o restrictions for them but for win users paying fees & royalties is *of course* mandarory...)

SeeMoreDigital

20th February 2007, 21:14

While we are talking about the .MOV container.....

Out of interest, has anybody seen examples of .AC3 audio within the .MOV container? I know I have not!

Cheers

sjchmura

1st March 2007, 21:26

Any ETA ..... I would love ot test the splitter for MP4 (AC3/aac).

mediator

2nd March 2007, 08:20

The MP4-splitter with AC3 support will come with this months (march) Nero 7 web-update. But there is not much to test since AC3-direct-stream-copy-support will come with Nero 8, so probably not much material to test with.

sjchmura

2nd March 2007, 16:25

So you are saying that Recode (march) will not "create" a MP4 with intact ac3? For example

ATSC TS -> AVC 720p profile+Direct Stream copy Ac3?

Ronin-7

4th March 2007, 12:28

The Nero MP4 Splitter works with any DirectShow application that uses automatic graphbuilding. Hence, there should also be no problem in WMP11 or MCE2005/Vista.

Actually got the opportunity to test this out on a notebook with Vista Home Premium and Nero 7.7.5.1, it works as the MP4 decoder in WMP11 just fine but in media centre things don't work so well. Thumbnails don't work properly though you can play the video it takes a little while for it to start (20-30 seconds) & after you stop the video you can actually see what would be the thumbnail in the just played section in the bottom left hand corner (weird).

Also for whatever reason some of the files I've done in AutoMKV with MP4 containers wont generate a thumbnail in explorer which does seem to work for some MP4 files but not for others.

Not too bothered about thumbnails in explorer but hopefully Nero can sort out the kinks in media centre which would be nice.

mediator

6th March 2007, 09:35

So you are saying that Recode (march) will not "create" a MP4 with intact ac3?

creation of AC-3 Nero Digital files (using Direct Stream Copy) is scheduled to be introduced with Nero 8.

Hyper Shinchan

6th March 2007, 16:35

So what ?

imo this is the *right* place to store these kind of things (by storing, I mean easier to read/write such datas) and this is entirely defined in the specs...

Yes, but you must create something that fit to the Atom/Box World. Foobar/Nero creates simply crap; please read this thread:
https://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1465020&forum_id=514419

why having permission ? reverse-engineering is more interesting in this case. Regarding Apple : the firm supply a lot of things for developpers. Much more for Mac OS users for sure but huh this is more than nothing after all. Unfortunately, note also that Windows users don't have the same rights as Mac users (just one example : Qt aac encoder can be used w/o restrictions for them but for win users paying fees & royalties is *of course* mandarory...)

I don't think that it's a problem of reverse-engineering, Apple offers the specs of its file format but I'm not sure that they'll allow to an external company to use it without permissions.

While we are talking about the .MOV container.....

Out of interest, has anybody seen examples of .AC3 audio within the .MOV container? I know I have not!

But why in MOV? We could use MP4 considering it as the ISO Media Base file format, and thus use it as base for another file format compatible with the ISO specs.
MPEG-4 Part 12 can also be used to store not MPEG-4 contents (3GPP and Apple docet). Of course this could be a little confusing for some people, but I think that placing AC-3 in MOV is confusing too (Apple doesn't provide a standardized way to place AC-3 in their file format).

Kurtnoise

6th March 2007, 20:37

Yes, but you must create something that fit to the Atom/Box World. Foobar/Nero creates simply crap; please read this thread:
https://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1465020&forum_id=514419

First, don't mix up fb2k and Nero stuff please. Second, believe me or not, using this atom is probably the most easiest way to store these infos.

I don't think that it's a problem of reverse-engineering, Apple offers the specs of its file format but I'm not sure that they'll allow to an external company to use it without permissions.
Ask to FFmpeg crew whether or not they have recieved a permission from Apple to implement the mov muxer/demuxer...:rolleyes:

acidsex

6th March 2007, 21:57

when can we expect this nero 8?

mediator

7th March 2007, 15:54

Foobar/Nero creates simply crap

please read http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44283&st=25

thanks!

Hyper Shinchan

10th March 2007, 10:13

First, don't mix up fb2k and Nero stuff please. Second, believe me or not, using this atom is probably the most easiest way to store these infos.

Ask to FFmpeg crew whether or not they have recieved a permission from Apple to implement the mov muxer/demuxer...:rolleyes:
1. Foobar 2000 and Nero tags looks to me identical.... though I think that Foobar stopped to use that format (not sure, anyway in newer version there was an option to re-write the metadata on m4a files that removed the old Foobar 0.9 metadata and rewrite just the ITunes metadata).
2. FFmpeg implements asf and some windows crappy codec too, but I don't think that it's very "legal" (from a M$ viewopoint).

please read http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...ic=44283&st=25

thanks!
And so what? For Nero guys is okay to write 'meta' boxes in a place that isn't allowed just because it's under a 'tags' box that they have "created"? And I still doesn't understand how they explain the hell that it's placed in this 'meta' box.
They also know that exists UUID boxes to place everything you want in a ISO Media File but they prefer to create their own crap.
Don't mention that if you want to embed pictures they'll be embede twice, in the standard ITunes metadata and in the moov.udta.tags.meta box (just like everthing else, of course). So the overhead will increase twice.
If they want to have a more flexible metadata than ITunes' one the mp4ra website created a standardized way to store ID3 2.x in 'meta' boxes. AtomicParsley partially support this metadata (at the moment, and probably for a long time in future, it doesn't support external referenced frames).
http://www.mp4ra.org/specs.html#id3v2

mediator

10th March 2007, 13:04

And so what? For Nero guys is okay to write 'meta' boxes in a place that isn't allowed just because it's under a 'tags' box that they have "created"? And I still doesn't understand how they explain the hell that it's placed in this 'meta' box.
They also know that exists UUID boxes to place everything you want in a ISO Media File but they prefer to create their own crap.

MP4-Parsers are required to skip any unknown atom. So if they cannot handle 'tags' then they should completely ignore it (and everything what is inside). And so there is / will be no problem...

jagaskywalker

20th November 2007, 17:26

SeeMoreDigital

20th November 2007, 18:20

What is currently the best way of muxing ac3 within mp4 ? (7 months after the last post in this thread)Hmmm... Asking "what's best" is a violation of rule 12.

You might find the easiest tool to use is Haali's "gdsmux.exe" which comes as part of his "Matroska Splitter".

Cheers

bond

20th November 2007, 21:04

Hmmm... Asking "what's best" is a violation of rule 12.

You might find the easiest tool to use is Haali's "gdsmux.exe" which comes as part of his "Matroska Splitter".

Cheersthe ps3 will not support this non standard stuff

B4tm4n

20th November 2007, 22:59

has anybody tried mp4 with ac3 in the PS3 ? Now with multi-channel support since fw 2.0 it might be an option..

What is currently the best way of muxing ac3 within mp4 ? (7 months after the last post in this thread)

THX

I tried it muxing using mp4box. It muxed OK but the PS3 just played the video without audio.

SeeMoreDigital

20th November 2007, 23:37

I tried it muxing using mp4box. It muxed OK but the PS3 just played the video without audio.As far as I'm aware, MP4box is not able to mux .AC3 elementary streams.

B4tm4n

21st November 2007, 00:48

As far as I'm aware, MP4box is not able to mux .AC3 elementary streams.
I used imkvextract to get .h264 .ac3 files.
Then used mp4box and it worked. But as I say it only plays the video.

MacBook:~ B4tm4n$ mp4box -fps 23.976 -add /Users/B4tm4n/Desktop/\[mkvextract\]csi.miami.s06e09.720p.hdtv.x264-ctu/video2.h264 -add /Users/B4tm4n/Desktop/\[mkvextract\]csi.miami.s06e09.720p.hdtv.x264-ctu/audio1.ac3 test.mp4
AVC-H264 import - frame size 1280 x 720 at 23.976 FPS
Import results: 61510 samples - Slices: 773 I 29161 P 31576 B - 1 SEI - 757 IDR
Stream uses B-slice references - max frame delay 2
Unknown input file type
Unknown input file type
Saving to test.mp4: 0.500 secs Interleaving

Just tried it with quicktime on my mac and its recognised as an mp4 file with no audio present.

Kurtnoise

21st November 2007, 11:00

MP4Box is able to parse AC-3 streams but unknown file types are discarded to the mux...

foxyshadis

23rd November 2007, 04:25

This was with a scene release

Then we don't want to hear about it. Struck.

Drachir

24th February 2008, 10:39

It seems Apple is using ac3 in iTunes files(*.m4v), now too.

http://forum.handbrake.fr/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4726&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1948597&forum_id=59136

SeeMoreDigital

24th February 2008, 13:00

Anybody have any test samples?

cacepi

25th February 2008, 04:00

Anybody have any test samples?
Here you go (http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=9f928933b76e41e6874c87ad3216b2a8), courtesy of the latest HandBrake.

Don't know if you'll get any sound, however, as there is no third-party AC3 decoder component for Windows QuickTime yet and neither MPlayer nor VLC will play the audio for these files even on the Mac. Media Player Classic and the latest Haali Splitter won't play back the audio either.

SeeMoreDigital

25th February 2008, 16:42

Many thanks for the sample...

Jeez... muxing any audio stream format along with video and referring to it as an ".M4V" file is just plain wrong :eek:

cacepi

26th February 2008, 07:31

Jeez... muxing any audio stream format along with video and referring to it as an ".M4V" file is just plain wrong :eek:
To say the least. The hacks that Apple have added to their code to make ac3 in MP4 work will take some time to implement in other players, if ever at all. It's still so new that there isn't a way mux raw streams even with mp4creator: the changes have only been to the mp42 library, none of the mpeg4ip command line binaries.

I guess Windows users will have to stick with Matroska or transport/program streams for the time being.

AKarpo

26th February 2008, 07:35

If you could, please check this thread out. Trying to get around this whole Apple issue.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1105296#post1105296

SeeMoreDigital

15th March 2008, 17:06

Yep that's right....

I've just got my hands on a Ziova CS615 test sample unit (based around Sigma's SMP8634 chip-set) and have been able to play files containing MPEG-4 ASP video with 6Ch AC3 audio in MP4 and MPEG-4 AVC video with 6Ch AC3 audio in MP4 without any issues. The AC3 bit-stream was passed perfectly to my amplifier.

Cheers

fico99

10th April 2008, 09:47

has anybody tried mp4 with ac3 in the PS3 ? Now with multi-channel support since fw 2.0 it might be an option..

What is currently the best way of muxing ac3 within mp4 ? (7 months after the last post in this thread)

THX

You have to remux your MP4 with AC3 to the M2TS file format.

The PS3 can playback M2TS files containing H.264 video and AC3 5.1 audio up to 640kbps :)

refulgentis

9th May 2008, 13:46

It seems like both mp4creator won't be updated anymore, and mp4box won't add AC3. Is there *anyone* who could patch mp4creator to do it? It seems like it wouldn't take more than a week of hacking to do.

9th May 2008, 14:13

Why would you want to put AC3 in MP4? Is there a hardware player that supports it? Otherwise I don't see the point since Matroska and MPEG TS cover the rest of the usage areas.

blaz

9th May 2008, 21:30

And avi works with ac3 on the ps3

(gawd I love abbreviations)

SeeMoreDigital

9th May 2008, 22:24

refulgentis

10th May 2008, 10:32

Why would you want to put AC3 in MP4? Is there a hardware player that supports it? Otherwise I don't see the point since Matroska and MPEG TS cover the rest of the usage areas.
Apple TV :/

refulgentis

10th May 2008, 10:35

Just to let you know... Nero Recode 3 has added the placing of AC3 audio streams within the MP4 container.

Not only that, I'm currently testing a hardware device that can play these streams.... And it works very well too ;)
Yeah, I saw (I think your?) earlier post about that, but its my understanding it doesn't run on Linux/Mac OS X, so its useless to me unless I start dualbooting.

SeeMoreDigital

10th May 2008, 10:44

The Ziova CS615 is a "network capable" media player.... So it's able to pull in files from any network connected computer or NAS.

You can even install an HDD within the CS615 and drag-and drop files over your network.

Cheers

Drachir

10th May 2008, 11:29

Me would interest, if Apple and/or Nero planning to register the new audio sample entry box for the ISO base media format here: http://www.mp4ra.org/codecs.html

As far as I know, do they use different box names. If I remember correct, Nero is using "sac3" (this would fit into the naming schema of 3GPP) and Apple TV is using "ac-3" (according to handbrake).

In the past Apple registered a new file brand ( http://www.mp4ra.org/filetype.html ) for the file format used by iTunes & co.
We will see, if we will get then an ObjectTypeIndication for ac3 in the MP4 file format too?

Nero could also really register a new file brand(file format), they added enough things and leave other things away, in there ISO media based format.

SeeMoreDigital

10th May 2008, 12:31

As far as I know, do they use different box names. If I remember correct, Nero is using "sac3" (this would fit into the naming schema of 3GPP) and Apple TV is using "ac-3" (according to handbrake).Yes that's correct.

refulgentis

10th May 2008, 12:42

Elias

12th May 2008, 19:43

SeeMoreDigital

12th May 2008, 19:56

Ac3 in mp4 is a bad idea. Please don't screw with standards. Keep mp4 as a standards only container.Adding .AC3 audio to the .MP4 container is not screwing with the standards.... They can all be added as a "private stream" implementation.

The only problem with mp4 is that it lacks chapters. If you want a universal container then use Matroska, don't screw up mp4 with ac3.That's not correct.... Chapter navigation can be added to .MP4 very easily. What's more many software and hardware players recognise them ;)

Elias

12th May 2008, 20:06

Adding .AC3 audio to the .MP4 container is not screwing with the standards.... They can all be added as a "private stream" implementation.I know, but that's still not a standard because it has not been accepted by MPEG or ISO. Hence, it shouldn't be added.

Let's keep mp4 clean. Or else we might as well just use Matroska. When I open an mp4 file, I want it to contain MPEG-4 codecs or H.264, nothing else. I don't want to look for codec filters; mp4 is MPEG-4, not Dolby.That's not correct.... Chapter navigation can be added to .MP4 very easily. What's more many software and hardware players recognise them ;)There are no MPEG chapter standard for mp4 as far as I know.

Drachir

13th May 2008, 12:29

Ac3 in mp4 is a bad idea. Please don't screw with standards. Keep mp4 as a standards only container. The only problem with mp4 is that it lacks chapters. If you want a universal container then use Matroska, don't screw up mp4 with ac3.

About what standard are you talking? The MP4 file format(ISO/IEC 14496-14)? The MP4 file format has a lot features and is quite universal.
But if you are strict, then nobody is using the MP4 file format nowadays.

If you take a look around, you will only find file formats in use, which are based at the ISO base media file format (ISO/IEC 14496-12).

There are for example, the 3GPP file format(.3gp) and Apple file format used for iTunes&co (.m4v). This file formats are not MP4 files, they don't depend/use the Object Descriptor Framework.
Most opensource tools are also unable to handle the Object Descriptor Framework. So if your are strict, the so called MP4 files, created by most opensource tools are only free-format files, they don't apply the MP4 file format.

To make it clear "ISO/IEC 14496-12" is not equal "ISO/IEC 14496-14"

So what do you want keep clean(don't screw up)?

In ISO base media file formats, the main file brand tells you which rules(standard) have to taken into account for propper presentation.
If you have a .M4V file with main file brand set to "m4v ", you don't have to look for MPEG-4 Systems(MP4 file format) information. But you will find additional information like iTunes tags.

You can already use other audio/video formats beside AAC or MPEG-4 video in file formats based at "ISO/IEC 14496-12".
Take a look here: http://www.mp4ra.org/codecs.html
There is for example "vc-1", if you want to use it in the MP4 file format(MPEG-4 Systems context) use the ObjectTypeIndication "0xA3". If you want to use it in an other "ISO/IEC 14496-12" based file format use the video sample entry box "vc-1".

I don't have a problem with ac3, as long as people/companies could decide which file format they want to use. I am not a fan of files, which look like someone took all "ISO/IEC 14496-12" based formats and threw them into a meat chopper.

I think it would be a good idea to register new audio/video formats here: http://www.mp4ra.org/codecs.html

Elias

13th May 2008, 13:54

About what standard are you talking? The MP4 file format(ISO/IEC 14496-14)? The MP4 file format has a lot features and is quite universal.
But if you are strict, then nobody is using the MP4 file format nowadays.

If you take a look around, you will only find file formats in use, which are based at the ISO base media file format (ISO/IEC 14496-12).

There are for example, the 3GPP file format(.3gp) and Apple file format used for iTunes&co (.m4v). This file formats are not MP4 files, they don't depend/use the Object Descriptor Framework.
Most opensource tools are also unable to handle the Object Descriptor Framework. So if your are strict, the so called MP4 files, created by most opensource tools are only free-format files, they don't apply the MP4 file format.

To make it clear "ISO/IEC 14496-12" is not equal "ISO/IEC 14496-14"

So what do you want keep clean(don't screw up)?

In ISO base media file formats, the main file brand tells you which rules(standard) have to taken into account for propper presentation.
If you have a .M4V file with main file brand set to "m4v ", you don't have to look for MPEG-4 Systems(MP4 file format) information. But you will find additional information like iTunes tags.

You can already use other audio/video formats beside AAC or MPEG-4 video in file formats based at "ISO/IEC 14496-12".
Take a look here: http://www.mp4ra.org/codecs.html
There is for example "vc-1", if you want to use it in the MP4 file format(MPEG-4 Systems context) use the ObjectTypeIndication "0xA3". If you want to use it in an other "ISO/IEC 14496-12" based file format use the video sample entry box "vc-1".

I don't have a problem with ac3, as long as people/companies could decide which file format they want to use. I am not a fan of files, which look like someone took all "ISO/IEC 14496-12" based formats and threw them into a meat chopper.

I think it would be a good idea to register new audio/video formats here: http://www.mp4ra.org/codecs.htmlLook, as far as I'm concerned, mp4 is for MPEG-4 only. I know that mp4 is capable of handling non-MPEG4 codecs, but that is not what it was made for. mp4 as a container along with MPEG-4 codecs, is a world standard. Let's keep it like that and not clutter mp4 with all kinds of codecs. You want to feel 1337? Do it with other containers like Matroska. Matroska is a container made for this kind of codec mixing and codec experimenting, mp4 wasn't.

Please, for the sake of the future of codecs, let's keep mp4 clean and free from codecs that aren't officially recognised for use in the container. It's easier and better that way for all of us. Let's not resort to cheap hacks.

Drachir

13th May 2008, 18:52

...I know that mp4 is capable of handling non-MPEG4 codecs, but that is not what it was made for...
Why do you think so? The propose of MP4 file format is to store natural or synthetic “media objects”.

...let's keep mp4 clean and free from codecs that aren't officially recognised for use in the container.
For this reason there is the officially Registration Authority http://www.mp4ra.org/ for file formats based at ISO/IEC 14496-12.

C.5 Storage of new media types
There are two choices in the definition of how a new media type should be stored.

First, if MPEG-4 systems constructs are desired or acceptable, then:
a) a new ObjectTypeIndication should be requested and used;
b) the decoderspecificinformation for this codec should be defined as an MPEG-4 descriptor;
c) the access unit format should be defined for this media.

The media then uses the MPEG-4 code-points in the file format; for example, a new video codec would use a
sampleentry of type ‘mp4v’.

If the MPEG-4 systems layer is not suitable or otherwise not desired, then:
a) a new sampleentry four-character code should be requested and used;
b) any additional information needed by the decoder should be defined as boxes to be stored within
the sampleentry;
c) the file-format sample format should be defined for this media.

Note that in the second case, the registration authority will also allocate an objecttypeindication for use in
MPEG-4 systems.

refulgentis

22nd May 2008, 10:04

Look, as far as I'm concerned, mp4 is for MPEG-4 only. I know that mp4 is capable of handling non-MPEG4 codecs, but that is not what it was made for. mp4 as a container along with MPEG-4 codecs, is a world standard. Let's keep it like that and not clutter mp4 with all kinds of codecs. You want to feel 1337? Do it with other containers like Matroska. Matroska is a container made for this kind of codec mixing and codec experimenting, mp4 wasn't.

Please, for the sake of the future of codecs, let's keep mp4 clean and free from codecs that aren't officially recognised for use in the container. It's easier and better that way for all of us. Let's not resort to cheap hacks.
I understand the underlying feelings behind your point, but its moot. A media extender from a popular consumer electronics company does it, and its hardly a threat to the integrity of the MP4 format if I'm able to listen to surround sound on an already non-standards compliant device. I'd use AAC, but unfortunately it looks as though there's no consumer-level receivers that will decode it any time soon.

I just want to be able to put AC3 in an MP4, and so do many others. I'm assuming its hardly difficult, just there's a lack of interest in writing up a patch.

Elias

22nd May 2008, 13:32

I understand the underlying feelings behind your point, but its moot. A media extender from a popular consumer electronics company does it, and its hardly a threat to the integrity of the MP4 format if I'm able to listen to surround sound on an already non-standards compliant device. I'd use AAC, but unfortunately it looks as though there's no consumer-level receivers that will decode it any time soon.

I just want to be able to put AC3 in an MP4, and so do many others. I'm assuming its hardly difficult, just there's a lack of interest in writing up a patch.Why does it have to be in mp4? Aren't there hardware devices capable of playing XviD+AC3 in avi already?

The reason why I don't want to see anyone write such a patch, is because it'll get widespread usage if anyone does, and that means teh Internet will eventually be filled with mp4 files containing AC3 codec, and that would piss me off because it's breaking standards. It's bad enough as it is that Apple introduced a non-standard way of tagging mp4 files instead of using the mp4 container's native metadata, now we're going to have to put up with AC3 in mp4 too?

I just don't see the point. What you and others should do, instead, is start using Matroska all the time; mp4 is already more or less a success right now, because of industry support. So now we should all support Matroska, and eventually, it will be inevitable for hardware manufacturers to add support for Matroska as well because it will be as popular as avi/mp4.

And really, Matroska is a lot more suited for codec mixing than mp4 ever will be.

SeeMoreDigital

22nd May 2008, 14:34

The reason why I don't want to see anyone write such a patch, is because it'll get widespread usage if anyone does, and that means teh Internet will eventually be filled with mp4 files containing AC3 codec, and that would piss me off because it's breaking standards. It's not breaking standards at all.....

As I've mentioned before the ISO/IEC 14496 MPEG-4 specification makes allowances for the inclusion of "Private Streams" to be placed within the .MP4 container.

Admittedly, what we don't want is a whole bunch of differing/competing implementations :eek:

refulgentis

22nd May 2008, 18:48

Why does it have to be in mp4? Aren't there hardware devices capable of playing XviD+AC3 in avi already?

The reason why I don't want to see anyone write such a patch, is because it'll get widespread usage if anyone does, and that means teh Internet will eventually be filled with mp4 files containing AC3 codec, and that would piss me off because it's breaking standards. It's bad enough as it is that Apple introduced a non-standard way of tagging mp4 files instead of using the mp4 container's native metadata, now we're going to have to put up with AC3 in mp4 too?

I just don't see the point. What you and others should do, instead, is start using Matroska all the time; mp4 is already more or less a success right now, because of industry support. So now we should all support Matroska, and eventually, it will be inevitable for hardware manufacturers to add support for Matroska as well because it will be as popular as avi/mp4.

And really, Matroska is a lot more suited for codec mixing than mp4 ever will be.It's all a large catch 22 of tradeoffs for people who use the iTunes ecosystem (read Apple TV) right now. The MP4 format allows the most metatagging right now, because that's what Apple uses to tag their MP4s so its quite easy to duplicate. MOV doesn't support quite enough for the most anal taggers. So MOV is out for AC3, and the Apple TV only supports MP4 or MOV out of the box.

Is the Apple TV an open platform worth supporting? No. And yes, it can be hacked to do MKVs, with a considerable amount of effort, including voiding your warranty. I doubt MKV will ever be supported officially, since it introduces a lot of variables with content that Apple just won't want to deal with.

Until an AC3 muxer or consumer-level AAC decoding receiver is released, there's no hope of getting surround sound on an Apple TV. I already send 'feedback' to Apple regarding this, and its a widely known issue, but they have no incentive to fix anything because it just drives rentals of their movies rather than piracy.

bond

22nd May 2008, 21:43

This discussion will soon be over as a standard spec is currently in development for supporting ac3 (and eac3) in mp4

it will be annex f to the ac3 standard ETSI_TS_102_366

Elias

23rd May 2008, 00:15

This discussion will soon be over as a standard spec is currently in development for supporting ac3 (and eac3) in mp4

it will be annex f to the ac3 standard ETSI_TS_102_366All right, that did it for me. Now I'm completely dropping mp4 and opting for Matroska. I see no reason to support mp4 after this. Not that I hope mp4 will die out or anything like that, I certainly prefer it over shitty avi, but it seems to me like the big companies that control mp4 just can't make up their minds, and they're not very good at sticking to the standards they've created. So might as well go Matroska all the way; it's open source and a lot more user friendly.

What's "eac3"?

SeeMoreDigital

23rd May 2008, 09:11

What's "eac3"?They are Dolby Digital Plus streams.

They can be found on HD-DVD and Blu-ray movies, and offer upto 8 (7.1) audio channels...

crypto

23rd May 2008, 15:45

...Until an AC3 muxer or consumer-level AAC decoding receiver is released, there's no hope of getting surround sound on an Apple TV. I already send 'feedback' to Apple regarding this, and its a widely known issue, but they have no incentive to fix anything because it just drives rentals of their movies rather than piracy.

Your info on Apple TV seems a bit out of date. Since Take 2 it officially supports AC3 in mp4, with an AAC fallback track. Apple is using it for all HD rentals. VLC is also supporting it and there is an open source muxer for it.

SeeMoreDigital

23rd May 2008, 18:02

refulgentis

24th May 2008, 05:02

Your info on Apple TV seems a bit out of date. Since Take 2 it officially supports AC3 in mp4, with an AAC fallback track. Apple is using it for all HD rentals. VLC is also supporting it and there is an open source muxer for it.
I know it supports AC3, that's why I'm asking how to put AC3 in an MP4 ;). There is no open source muxer for this according to the people over at handbrake (and the discussion forums for mp4box/mp4creator/ffmpeg), and if you've found one that puts AC3 in an MP4, please please please share.

refulgentis

24th May 2008, 05:04

Anybody have any up-to date sample files?SVN Handbrake will generate ones from a DVD, I'm not sure how to get one off an Apple TV because I believe HD + surround sound are only available in rental form on Apple TV.

Kurtnoise

24th May 2008, 06:19

if you've found one that puts AC3 in an MP4, please please please share.
:search:

SeeMoreDigital

24th May 2008, 08:35

SVN Handbrake will generate ones from a DVD, I'm not sure how to get one off an Apple TV because I believe HD + surround sound are only available in rental form on Apple TV.I've tried a few AC3 in MP4 samples muxed with Handbrake... They were very borked.

So far, Nero8's offerings appears to be the most stable.

bond

24th May 2008, 09:39

All right, that did it for me. Now I'm completely dropping mp4 and opting for Matroska. I see no reason to support mp4 after this. Not that I hope mp4 will die out or anything like that, I certainly prefer it over shitty avi, but it seems to me like the big companies that control mp4 just can't make up their minds, and they're not very good at sticking to the standards they've created. So might as well go Matroska all the way; it's open source and a lot more user friendly.

What's "eac3"?hm maybe you misunderstood the message. currently there is no clear standard for how to store ac3 in mp4, in the future there will be and thats a good thing

crypto

24th May 2008, 10:25

Ok, sample is up: sample-ac3.mov (http://pub.vftp.de/atv/sample-ac3.mov) 33.8MB

SeeMoreDigital

24th May 2008, 11:22

Ok, sample is up: sample-ac3.mov (http://pub.vftp.de/atv/sample-ac3.mov) 33.8MBBummer...

Sadly I'm unable to test that particular sample in my hardware player because the AAC track is flagged up before the AC3 track.

refulgentis

24th May 2008, 12:22

:search:
I assume you're referring to Recode 3? That's the only tool I'm aware of that will put AC3 in an MP4, and trust me, I've done more than enough :search: on this.

EDIT: my gosh, I've spent 8-10 hours a day the last 6 weeks doing research on getting a good MP4 to meet Quicktime's standards, and innumerable searches on AC3 MP4, and just now by going through your old post history I found http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=124175. Now I just have to install Windows :P

If anyone has a mp4box/mp4creator/ffmpeg patch that will hack this through, that's preferable of course.

refulgentis

24th May 2008, 12:23

Ok, sample is up: sample-ac3.mov (http://pub.vftp.de/atv/sample-ac3.mov) 33.8MB
Is that from Handbrake? And is it MP4? Looks like MOV to me.

crypto

24th May 2008, 12:41

Is that from Handbrake? And is it MP4? Looks like MOV to me.

Yes. To cut the sample, I used QT. Unfortunately, it can only save to MOV. Exporting to MP4 destroys the AC3 track. The original full-length stream however was MP4. Does the sample work for you? If not, I have to find a way to keep the MP4 format.

refulgentis

24th May 2008, 12:54

Yes. To cut the sample, I used QT. Unfortunately, it can only save to MOV. Exporting to MP4 destroys the AC3 track. The original full-length stream however was MP4. Does the sample work for you? If not, I have to find a way to keep the MP4 format.
Yeah it looks fine, just curious, I needed a sample by Handbrake to crosscheck how AC3 is described in Handbrake vs. gdsmux and having yours makes it easy.

Drachir

24th May 2008, 13:05

EDIT: my gosh, I've spent 8-10 hours a day the last 6 weeks doing research on getting a good MP4 to meet Quicktime's standards, and innumerable searches on AC3 MP4, and just now by going through your old post history I found http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=124175. Now I just have to install Windows :P

I doubt that files with ac3 audio, created by gdsmux, will have sound in Apple TV. Gdsmux is probably using a private ObjectTypeIndication (0xC0 - 0xE0, 0xE2 - 0xFE), a so called private stream.
I would use a private ObjectTypeIndication only for testing or internal use.

crypto

24th May 2008, 13:28

Yeah it looks fine, just curious, I needed a sample by Handbrake to crosscheck how AC3 is described in Handbrake vs. gdsmux and having yours makes it easy.

Handbrake uses libmp4v2 with a patch. You can probably use their patched library with mp4creator. For details on the patch, have a look here (http://forum.handbrake.fr/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4726).

refulgentis

24th May 2008, 13:39

Handbrake uses libmp4v2 with a patch. You can probably use their patched library with mp4creator. For details on the patch, have a look here (http://forum.handbrake.fr/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4726).yeah, I already tried going that route (patching mp4creator), I was able to create the ac3 atom like them but I don't know how to read and write the actual stream to the mp4.

of course, I have only about 6 months of C/C++ programming experience from a silly high school class that was self-guided and no experience with AC3.

i'm hoping someone who has that experience will step up to do that. the handbrake developer who patched libmp4v2 basically said he's busy enough and not interested in patching mp4creator.

refulgentis

24th May 2008, 13:39

I doubt that files with ac3 audio, created by gdsmux, will have sound in Apple TV. Gdsmux is probably using a private ObjectTypeIndication (0xC0 - 0xE0, 0xE2 - 0xFE), a so called private stream.
I would use a private ObjectTypeIndication only for testing or internal use.
yeah, I really doubt it will work, but I guess its worth a shot

SeeMoreDigital

24th May 2008, 16:45

Yes. To cut the sample, I used QT. Unfortunately, it can only save to MOV. Exporting to MP4 destroys the AC3 track. The original full-length stream however was MP4. Does the sample work for you? If not, I have to find a way to keep the MP4 format.Interesting... Are you able to cut the sample and remove the AAC audio track. Leaving just the AVC video and AC3 audio streams within .MOV?

crypto

24th May 2008, 17:22

Interesting... Are you able to cut the sample and remove the AAC audio track. Leaving just the AVC video and AC3 audio streams within .MOV?
Sure, that's simple. If you have QT Pro, open the movie properties, select the stereo track and click delete. Then save the movie.

QT edit functions work ok on this sample, because all tracks are correctly muxed. Have a look at the video track. It has a data size and data rate. As long as that is ok,
iIt is even possible to add an AC3 track in QT.

This is not the case when you mux using mp4box and its derivates. As a result editing in QT is not possible, due to the missing video track data size resp. data rate.

SeeMoreDigital

24th May 2008, 18:20

Thanks Crypto,

I've just updated QuickTime Pro to version 7.4.5... And now I can open and edit .MOV files with AC3 audio :)

Many thanks

Ranguvar

16th June 2008, 03:39

Alright, I'm going to beg everyone here :p

I'd really like to be able to mux MP4's containing both stereo AAC-LC audio (for compatibility with my PS3 and 360), and AC3 5.1. I know HandBrake generates MP4's that can be played in the 360 and PS3 like that, but gdsmux.exe does not work, it creates videos that cannot be played by the 360. And I'd rather not use HandBrake; I prefer to do my video encoding through x264.exe and AviSynth.

So, I'd really love it if somebody could build a working mp4creator with the patch. I have very little experienced in building like this, and the MPEG4IP page warns everyone that Windows builds will most likely crash and burn. So, if a kind soul could perform this task... :)

SeeMoreDigital

16th June 2008, 09:20

So, I'd really love it if somebody could build a working mp4creator with the patch. I have very little experienced in building like this, and the MPEG4IP page warns everyone that Windows builds will most likely crash and burn. So, if a kind soul could perform this task... :)How about getting involved in the testing of Crypto's new application: -

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=138445

jult

6th August 2008, 17:29

OK, so I've read this topic and I'm still not certain if it's a good idea to mux ac3 into mp4.
Point is:
I have a lot of AVCHD files from camcorders, they have AC3 audio (256 kbit/s @ 48 kHz) in them, just two channels audio.
It's pretty sad to have to transcode audio again and again, especially if the target is not much different (with regards to bitrate). I currently decode to wav using:
azid --maximize --stereo=stereo --filetype=wav_float
and then encode the wav using:
neroAacEnc -q 0.62
but I'd much rather mux the original .ac3 I demuxed from the .mts file.

Any ideas on that?

SeeMoreDigital

6th August 2008, 17:41

Are you re-encoding the AVCHD camcorder captures to a lower bit-rate?

jult

6th August 2008, 17:47

Yes, the source is 17 Mbit/s (!) blu-ray level quality. So the video can be downsized for some purposes. Audio is not that good to begin with (from this cam) so I'd like to retain source-quality as much as possible.

I use x264 and avisynth for the video and mp4box to mux it.

SeeMoreDigital

6th August 2008, 18:05

I see...

Personally I would hold-off muxing AC3 audio into the .MP4 container until the official (MPEG-4 ISO/IEC) specification for doing so is released... Which should not be much longer.

Until then, I'd recommend muxing AVC video with AC3 audio into either the .TS or .M2TS container, using TSmuxer GUI.

Cheers

jult

6th August 2008, 18:20

Until then, I'd recommend muxing AVC video with AC3 audio into either the .TS or .M2TS container, using TSmuxer GUI.Is there a non-GUI way to use TSmuxer? I'm scripting the process, so what I do now is:

for %%a in ("*.h264") do mp4box -add "%%a" -add "%%~na.aac" -fps 25.00 -new "%%~na.mp4"

in a batch-file. I'd like to do similar with TSmuxer. Maybe it's just there, I haven't even looked at TSmuxer yet.

Thanks for the hint!

crypto

6th August 2008, 21:26

jult, you can mux AC3 into MOV using Quicktime Pro, but that would not save you from encoding audio to AAC. An AAC fallback track is mandatory. Not all players know how to use the AC3 track. BTW. Which player are you going to use?

jult

6th August 2008, 21:28

I'm definitely not ever in my lifetime encoding to mov, sorry.

Players are many, but it needs to be Quicktime compatible.

crypto

6th August 2008, 22:00

I'm definitely not ever in my lifetime encoding to mov, sorry...
Ok, fair enough.

bond

10th August 2008, 13:41

ok, the official ac3-in-mp4 specs are publically mentioned (after being mentioned on doom9 of course ;) ):

http://www.mp4ra.org/specs.html

"ETSI TS 102 366 v1.2.1 - Digital Audio Compression (AC-3, Enhanced AC-3) Standard, Annex F"

how to place ac3 in mp4 will be described in annex f to the official ac3 standard

its not yet publically available on the net (at least i didnt find it)

and, word is, nero will switch to this standard as soon as its offical. good thing, nero!

mediator

11th August 2008, 07:36

nero will switch to this standard as soon as its offical

@bond: wow! you are _really_ fast ;)

Ranguvar

11th August 2008, 16:18

Nice! Now it remains to be seen whether DivX's MKV support or Nero's MP4 support will carry the day... I personally think it will be MKV, which is good IMO because MKV has more features and more formats supported, but we'll see.

SeeMoreDigital

11th August 2008, 16:45

and, word is, nero will switch to this standard as soon as its offical. good thing, nero!When this happens, hopefully it wont take long for the handful of hardware player manufacturers who already support NeroDigital's AC3 in .MP4 to update their chip-sets firmware...

mediator

22nd August 2008, 11:45

the wait is over. The updated ETSI TS 102 366 including Annex F is published.

SeeMoreDigital

22nd August 2008, 14:54

the wait is over. The updated ETSI TS 102 366 including Annex F is published.Hi mediator,

Do you know how quickly Nero will be updating to the revised spec for placing AC3 within .MP4?

Will you be able to provide samples for testing in hardware players?

Cheers

mediator

22nd August 2008, 20:00

Do you know how quickly Nero will be updating to the revised spec for placing AC3 within .MP4?

For playback, support is going to be released as quick as the release cycle allows (which unfortunately isn't tomorrow ;)). For Recode, this is currently being figured out.

Will you be able to provide samples for testing in hardware players?

Not right now. But hardware players supporting this don't exist either (right now).

Ritsuka

22nd August 2008, 20:07

Interesting, the specification in ETSI TS 102 366 is the same that apple uses for the appletv.

mediator

22nd August 2008, 20:51

Interesting, the specification in ETSI TS 102 366 is the same that apple uses for the appletv.

not exactly. ETSI doesn't use the "wave" box.

Ritsuka

23rd August 2008, 08:36

Neither does Apple for MP4. Yes, ac-3 in MOV uses a totally different sample description. But we aren't talking about Mov here :)

bond

23rd August 2008, 12:52

good stuff. any link to the new specs?

crypto

24th August 2008, 11:56

To get the specs (free after registration), query then ETSI library at: http://pda.etsi.org/pda/queryform.asp
I used the search term "TS 102 366" (without quotes)

Search result:
ETSI TS 102 366 V1.2.1 (2008-08) Latest document information Download
Reference:RTS/JTC-019 Source:BROADCAS 1295627 bytes (214 Pages) Former price code: R
Title: Digital Audio Compression (AC-3, Enhanced AC-3) Standard

@bond
I found no differences to the prerelease annex f document.

sethk

24th August 2008, 19:33

Will the 360 and / or PS3 be able to playback MP4 files with AC3 that follow the updated standard (with their current software)?

Ranguvar

24th August 2008, 20:53

I'm going to guess no... but I have high hopes that since Sony is partnering with DivX to provide the MPEG-4 ASP decoder for the PS3, they will support the DivX H.264 profiles too soon, which means MKV and AC3 support on the PS3. And if they do it, it'll put heavy pressure on MS to do it as well for the 360.

bond

24th August 2008, 22:00

crypto

25th August 2008, 07:11

:thanks:
is it realistic for you to write a patch for mp4creator supporting ac3?
Yes, that's the plan.

Kurtnoise

4th September 2008, 08:00

Just let you know that FFmpeg is now able to mux AC3 (& dirac too) streams in mp4/mov/m4v files since revision 15184...

Not tested yet though.

@Bond: it's time to update the FAQ, isn't it ? :p

SeeMoreDigital

4th September 2008, 08:13

Hi Kurt,

When you get round to testing, please upload so samples ;)

Kurtnoise

4th September 2008, 09:46

Hi SMD,
audio only (http://www.mediafire.com/?rdqslkv5ky2)

audio & video (http://www.mediafire.com/?8jaynyjjntx)

It seems that multichannel streams are downmixed to stereo...

Ritsuka

4th September 2008, 10:32

Did you created them with ffmpeg? It doesn't seem like they respect the ETSI specs…

Kurtnoise

4th September 2008, 10:57

Did you created them with ffmpeg?
yes...

It doesn't seem like they respect the ETSI specs…
are you sure ?

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7459/ac3etsitf5.png (http://imageshack.us)
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/ac3etsitf5.png/1/w608.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img171/ac3etsitf5.png/1/)

Code:
>> http://pastebin.com/f6884f9b8
>> http://pastebin.com/f77773ef

Ritsuka

4th September 2008, 11:12

I opened it with an hex editor and found no dac3 box and a surprisingly big stsd box. Looking at the specs the ac3sampleentry should be only 216 bytes, in your samples is 1852 bytes.

Ritsuka

4th September 2008, 11:31

http://pastebin.com/m4f80f0a4 should fix it.

Kurtnoise

4th September 2008, 13:44

ok...I've made a bugreport on the ML with the fix. Hope that'll be fine.

Ritsuka

4th September 2008, 14:01

Btw the problem was that is wrote the wrong atom (glbl instead of dac3).
The value written in the dac3 are still not the right one, but I don't have time to look into it now.

bond

4th September 2008, 19:09

Just let you know that FFmpeg is now able to mux AC3 (& dirac too) streams in mp4/mov/m4v files since revision 15184...good stuff! i told bcoudurier about the new specs. didnt know he will be that fast :)

@Bond: it's time to update the FAQ, isn't it ? :phey, it was always there ;)

Ritsuka

4th September 2008, 22:30

FFmpeg revision 15198 can generates valid mp4 files with ac-3 :)
HandBrake 0.9.2 can too (but only if the ac-3 is 5.1 and has 48000 as sample rate).

SeeMoreDigital

5th September 2008, 09:21

FFmpeg revision 15198 can generates valid mp4 files with ac-3 :)
HandBrake 0.9.2 can too (but only if the ac-3 is 5.1 and has 48000 as sample rate).Great news....

Anybody able to provide A/V samples yet?

Kurtnoise

5th September 2008, 10:22

http://www.mediafire.com/?ggdhmtvnlun

play fine through vlc 0.9.2 >>

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7504/vlcdecfe7.th.png (http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcdecfe7.png)

pmsppinto

11th September 2008, 12:31

Thanks for the sample.

Any ideas on how to input (split) it into directshow? Haali splitter (29/03/2008 version) simply ignores the ac3 track. After that I guess ffdshow or ac3filter should pick it up easily.

Though I'm a Mp4box person, the moment mp4creator can mux ac3 I'm sold!

P

Kurtnoise

11th September 2008, 16:08

Any ideas on how to input (split) it into directshow?
that's not possible for the moment...you have to wait an update from Nero or Haali.

but there is a way to use Haali splitter with AC3 streams in MP4...I wouldn't use it anymore coz the specs to store such streams are well defined now.

Locust76

24th September 2008, 14:07

Does anyone know if this is possible using MediaCoder yet? Do any other easy-to-use programs mux ac3 into mp4, or is it still too early?

crypto

24th September 2008, 22:20

Does anyone know if this is possible using MediaCoder yet? Do any other easy-to-use programs mux ac3 into mp4, or is it still too early?
MP4Muxer 0.9.3 (not yet released) can mux AC3 into MPEG-4, but I am not sure how to test, if everything is compliant. I tried VLC and plays the AC-3 track ok.

How are you going to use AC3 in MPEG-4? If you like, you can test the new MP4Muxer. (PM me)

Edit: Meanwhile MP4Muxer 0.9.3 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=138445) is released.

Sharktooth

26th September 2008, 18:48

post a muxed file, so if someone has a NeroDigital compliant player can test if it works.

SeeMoreDigital

26th September 2008, 19:40

post a muxed file, so if someone has a NeroDigital compliant player can test if it works.Sadly, updated firmwares have not reached NeroDigital certified players yet..... But I'm awaiting :)

Globerex

7th October 2008, 08:53

Does someone know if Nero 9 and the includet Recode are supporting the new Standard? Both, decoding and encoding.

bond

7th October 2008, 20:22

Does someone know if Nero 9 and the includet Recode are supporting the new Standard? Both, decoding and encoding.they announced to support it, whether its already supported i dont know

SeeMoreDigital

7th October 2008, 21:34

I can test a Nero9 AVC+AC3.MP4 encoded file in my hardware player.....

mediator

9th October 2008, 07:38

Does someone know if Nero 9 and the includet Recode are supporting the new Standard? Both, decoding and encoding.

Finalization of the standardization at ETSI was a bit late (end of August) to make if for the initial Nero 9, so it's not yet included, but both is already on it's way, just waiting for the right timeslots to be released. Unfortunately I cannot give you dates :(

NorthPole

27th October 2008, 18:54

Does anyone know of a Directshow splitter that can handle a 6 channel ac3 stream in a mp4 yet?

JoeBG

27th October 2008, 19:39

Does anyone know of a Directshow splitter that can handle a 6 channel ac3 stream in a mp4 yet?

Does the Haali Splitter not work?

NorthPole

28th October 2008, 14:12

Does the Haali Splitter not work?

Nope... Also tried mainconcept and cyberlink but no luck with them either.

The MP4 has a h264 video stream and a 6 channel ac3 stream only and was muxed with the new version of mp4muxer. The file plays with VLC.

SeeMoreDigital

28th October 2008, 16:38

Sadly, Haali's splitter has not been updated since March 29, 2008. Way before the official AC3 in MP4 specification was finalised...

I wonder if there's anybody on the forum who's able to tweak Gabest's MP4 splitter?

Kurtnoise

9th November 2008, 12:00

HandBrake 0.9.2 can too (but only if the ac-3 is 5.1 and has 48000 as sample rate).
Am I right that HandBrake always downmixes multichannel streams when we decide to use the AC3 codec and mp4 output ?

I'm using the rev1896...

Ritsuka

9th November 2008, 12:09

No. It does not. If your player does not report the correct channels number is because it's reading the wrong value from the mp4 container (channels count in the audiosampleentry box instead of the one in the dac3 box).

crypto

9th November 2008, 12:15

No, the AC3 track is passed thru. The AAC track however is downmixed (AAC LC).

I basicly use the same mp4v2 library routines in mp4creator and vlc is reporting 2 channels. The AC3 track however is 5.1 and plays 5.1 on my AC3 amp.

I bet, you are using vlc in your test.

I consider this a vlc bug since it reads the channel count from the sample box. The specs however specifically demand to ingnore the channel count in the sample box.

I guess I do a special build that describes the samples as 6 channels just to see how vlc reacts on this.

Edit: Ritsuka was faster. Interesting he diagnoses the same.

Kurtnoise

9th November 2008, 12:20

this is what I get with an ac3 multichannel stream :

<AC3SampleEntry DataReferenceIndex="1" SampleRate="48000" Channels="2" BitsPerSample="16">
<AC3SpecificBox fscod="0" bsid="8" bsmod="0" acmod="7" lfon="1" bit_rate_code="14">
<BoxInfo Size="11" Type="dac3" />
</AC3SpecificBox>
<BoxInfo Size="47" Type="ac-3" />
</AC3SampleEntry>

Source from MediaInfo:

General
Complete name : C:\PTU\VIDEO_TS\VTS_11_1.VOB
Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 480 MiB
Duration : 9mn 14s
Overall bit rate : 7 265 Kbps

Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Duration : 9mn 14s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 5 992 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 6 000 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4/3
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Bottom Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.579

Audio #1
ID : 128 (0x80)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Duration : 9mn 13s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Surround: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz

Audio #2
ID : 129 (0x81)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Duration : 9mn 13s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Surround: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz

crypto

9th November 2008, 12:37

My test confirms it. Muxed with mp4creator 1.6.1d with the modified samplebox vlc sees 6 channels.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/8233/vlcac3mp4md8.th.png (http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcac3mp4md8.png)http://img523.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

crypto

9th November 2008, 12:43

@Ritsuka
What do you think? Whould you change the sample description to 6 channels? Have you discussed the issue in the handbrake team? Or should we wait for a fix from vlc?

Ritsuka

9th November 2008, 13:00

I would wait for a fix from vlc.

crypto

9th November 2008, 13:03

Me too, thanks for your opinion.

SeeMoreDigital

9th November 2008, 13:29

My test confirms it. Muxed with mp4creator 1.6.1d with the modified samplebox vlc sees 6 channels. Hi Crypto,

With your fix, does MediaInfo report 6No channels also?

Kurtnoise

9th November 2008, 13:48

With your fix, does MediaInfo report 6No channels also?
I think yes...

note that the current MediaInfo lib reports accurate infos from handbrake files and does not from mp4muxer ones (using mp4creatoor 1.6.1d). So, I'm quite surprised coz you said that both tools use the same libs...:confused:

crypto

9th November 2008, 15:34

Hi Kurtnoise13, hi SeeMoreDigital,

I havn't tried mediainfo for a while. Thanks for pointing out.

I have set that sample online: http://www.dvbportal.com/ts/Heroes.S3E2.6CH.HD-sample.m4v (37.7MB, 720p, AAC 2.0, AC-3 5.1)

Edit:

I checked it with mediainfo 0.7.6.2 and it does display 6 channels:

General #0
Complete name : C:\Capture\convert2\Heroes.S3E2.6CH.HD-sample.m4v
Format : MPEG-4
Format/Info : ISO 14496-1 version 2
Format/Family : MPEG-4
File size : 37.7 MiB
PlayTime : 57s 480ms
Bit rate : 5506 Kbps
StreamSize : 26.0 KiB
Encoded date : UTC 2008-11-09 13:21:15
Tagged date : UTC 2008-11-09 13:21:47
Writing application : mp4creator 1.6.1d

Video #0
Codec : AVC
Codec/Family : AVC
Codec/Info : MPEG-4 AVC
Codec profile : Main@L4.0
Codec settings, CABAC : No
PlayTime : 57s 480ms
Bit rate mode : VBR
Bit rate : 4961 Kbps
Width : 1280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display Aspect ratio : 16/9
Frame rate mode : CFR
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Chroma : 4:2:0
Interlacement : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.215
StreamSize : 34.0 MiB
Encoded date : UTC 2008-11-09 13:21:15
Tagged date : UTC 2008-11-09 13:21:18

Audio #0
Codec : AAC LC
Codec/Family : AAC
Codec/Info : AAC Low Complexity
PlayTime : 56s 896ms
Bit rate mode : VBR
Bit rate : 164 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 166 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
StreamSize : 1.11 MiB
Encoded date : UTC 2008-11-09 13:21:18
Tagged date : UTC 2008-11-09 13:21:18

Audio #1
Codec : ac-3
PlayTime : 56s 832ms
Bit rate mode : CBR
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
StreamSize : 2.60 MiB
Encoded date : UTC 2008-11-09 13:21:46
Tagged date : UTC 2008-11-09 13:21:47

SeeMoreDigital

9th November 2008, 15:44

Hi Kurtnoise13, hi SeeMoreDigital,

I havn't tried mediainfo for a while. Thanks for pointing out. Nice one... MediaInfo reports the correct channel information :)

Kurtnoise

9th November 2008, 18:03

I havn't tried mediainfo for a while. Thanks for pointing out.

I have set that sample online: http://www.dvbportal.com/ts/Heroes.S3E2.6CH.HD-sample.m4v (37.7MB, 720p, AAC 2.0, AC-3 5.1)

Edit: I checked it with mediainfo 0.7.6.2 and it does display 6 channels:
well your sample is accurate but tell me why mediainfo displays 2ch for this sample (http://www.mediafire.com/?zzmnyhfnwzt) instead.

file muxed with the latest mp4muxer package of course. :)

I know that's channel_count is not mandatory as decribed in the specs but I would like to know why. ;)

Ritsuka

9th November 2008, 18:32

Because as we already said the right channels count is in the dac3 atom. That's what the specs say. Mediainfo and Vlc needs to be updated to comply to the ac3 in mp4 specs, if they don't, it's not the muxer fault.

crypto

9th November 2008, 18:32

Kurtnoise13, I have done that sample with the experimental version that writes a sample box with 6 channels.

And you are right about the non-mandatory channel count in the specs.

Kurtnoise

9th November 2008, 18:52

Because as we already said the right channels count is in the dac3 atom.
this is what I get with the sample created with HandBrake from mp4box (just grab some infos from atoms...nothing more) :

<AC3SampleEntry DataReferenceIndex="1" SampleRate="48000" Channels="2" BitsPerSample="16">
<AC3SpecificBox fscod="0" bsid="8" bsmod="0" acmod="7" lfon="1" bit_rate_code="14">
<BoxInfo Size="11" Type="dac3" />
</AC3SpecificBox>
<BoxInfo Size="47" Type="ac-3" />
</AC3SampleEntry>

and with the sample from mp4muxer :
<AC3SampleEntry DataReferenceIndex="1" SampleRate="48000" Channels="2" BitsPerSample="16">
<AC3SpecificBox fscod="0" bsid="8" bsmod="0" acmod="7" lfon="1" bit_rate_code="10">
<BoxInfo Size="11" Type="dac3" />
</AC3SpecificBox>
<BoxInfo Size="47" Type="ac-3" />
</AC3SampleEntry>

So, it means that mp4box must be also updated (if yes, is there a tool available somewhere that gives more accurate results) or I miss something here...???

Mediainfo and Vlc needs to be updated to comply to the ac3 in mp4 specs, if they don't, it's not the muxer fault.
due to the fact that is not mandatory, my guess is that some muxers don't specify the value for channel count or apply a default one (i.e 2). So, we turn around here...

crypto

9th November 2008, 19:16

No, that dump is ok. Channels="2" is the sample entry box in question. All muxers I know signal 2 channels. The relevant entry however is acmod="7", which stands for 3/2 + lfe. The following values are specified:

Table C.1: Channel Array Ordering
acmod Audio Coding Mode Normal Channel
Assignment
(bsmod != "111")
"010" 2/0 L,R
"011" 3/0 L,C,R
"100" 2/1 L,R,S
"101" 3/1 L,C,R,S
"110" 2/2 L,R,Ls,Rs
"111" 3/2 L,C,R,Ls,Rs

Zenitram

9th November 2008, 23:06

well your sample is accurate but tell me why mediainfo displays 2ch for this sample (http://www.mediafire.com/?zzmnyhfnwzt) instead.

MediaInfo has a bug with this file: current implementation does not parse dac3 atom (this is not a bug, this is a feature request :), dac3 atom was not in the first MPEG-4 specs), and does not succeed to find the AC-3 stream (I don't know why yet, this is a bug), so does not parse the AC-3 frame header.
The only available info is in the stsd/ac-3 default atom, which is wrong in this case.

MediaInfo algorithm is/will be:
1/ Trust the stream headers (AC-3 specifications)
2/ If no stream found, trust the dac3 atom
3/ If no dac3 atom, trust the channel count in stsd/ac-3

I will implement 2/ (not yet done because I was not aware of dac3 atom, I am now), and I will try to patch MediaInfo for 1/. So a double-check should be available in the next release.

Because as we already said the right channels count is in the dac3 atom. That's what the specs say. Mediainfo and Vlc needs to be updated to comply to the ac3 in mp4 specs, if they don't, it's not the muxer fault.

MediaInfo will, don't worry ;-).
But AC-3 frame header is even more important than dac3 values, MediaInfo will trust first the AC-3 frame header if the two things say different values.

Kurtnoise

9th November 2008, 23:39

thanks Crypto, Zen...:)

If anybody is interested : my first attempt (http://kurtnoise.free.fr/index.php?dir=mp4tools/&file=MP4Splitter_20081109.zip) to play such streams within the Gabest MP4 Splitter...it does not yet follow the new specs (that's why there is no patch/code available). I'll try to implement the correct way asap.

note: you need to register the filter manually :
regsvr32 my_path_where_the_filter_is_located\MP4Splitter.ax

and disable the others...;)

SeeMoreDigital

9th November 2008, 23:55

Hi Kurt,

Seems to be working fine for me.... Well done mate ;)

SeeMoreDigital

11th November 2008, 11:36

I will implement 2/ (not yet done because I was not aware of dac3 atom, I am now), and I will try to patch MediaInfo for 1/. So a double-check should be available in the next release. Thanks Zen.... v0.7.7.8 reports the correct number of channels :)

clsid

14th November 2008, 12:52

@Kurtnoise13,
When you complete a patch, could you send it to either me or casimir666? Then we can commit it to the Guliverkli2/MPC-HC projects.

Kurtnoise

14th November 2008, 22:32

I'm sure I will...:)

Damie

27th February 2009, 13:43

MPC-HC player doesnt find an ac3 audio stream inside a mp4 file even though VLC plays it with no problems. Is this normal?
ac3 inside mkv works fine.

Kurtnoise

27th February 2009, 14:17

what do you mean by "find" ?

You have to use the mp4 internal splitter from the last release at least...

Damie

27th February 2009, 19:00

The audio stream is not anywhere to be found in MPC.

I'm using the latest Haali Media Splitter (with mp4 splitting enabled), guess it doesnt support ac3 in mp4 yet ?

Kurtnoise

27th February 2009, 20:23

not as the standard way used by the one in MPC(-HC)...

MP4Box, MP4Creator, Handbrake or Nero are able to store AC3 streams in MP4 as defined by ISO standard. That's the way to go...

poisondeathray

27th February 2009, 20:23

The audio stream is not anywhere to be found in MPC.

I'm using the latest Haali Media Splitter (with mp4 splitting enabled), guess it doesnt support ac3 in mp4 yet ?

Kurtnoise already said this but I'll repeat it: enable the internal filter in mpc-hc and use a recent build

Another option is to register the MPC-HC .mp4 splitter .ax separately, then all directshow players can use it

Damie

27th February 2009, 21:33

Yes i already tried enabling the mp4 splitter in MPC-HC but no help. Dunno what's wrong as ac3 in mkv works fine.

my setup: XP SP3 + MPC HC + Haali Media Splitter + ffdshow (everything at their latest versions).

SeeMoreDigital

27th February 2009, 21:44

my setup: XP SP3 + MPC HC + Haali Media Splitter + ffdshow (everything at their latest versions).I suggest you (temporarily) delete Haali's media splitter...

Damie

4th March 2009, 00:27

Tried uninstalling Haali but no help. AC3Filter didn't fix the problem either.

MPC just isnt recognizing ac3 inside mp4.

poisondeathray

4th March 2009, 01:03

Register the standalone mp4splitter.ax from MPC-HC, set the merit higher. Render the ac3 in .mp4 file in graphstudio to see if it is the default splitter for .mp4

Damie

4th March 2009, 01:52

Well got the mp4splitter.ax (1.0.0.4) to load in mpc-hc, but it doesnt find the audio stream either.

Also graphstudio only is able to open .mp4 when haali splitter is installed and then shows only the video stream.

For the same video & audio stream except in a mkv container, graphstudio shows both the streams fine.

poisondeathray

4th March 2009, 02:04

Search around for a newer splitter, I'm using 1.0.0.5

I can't think of any other reason it's not working for you...

EDIT: if you are using MPC-HC, try disabling some of the internal splitters when using this method, or try MPC., but MPC-HC's internal splitter should work by itself on ac3 in .mp4

Damie

4th March 2009, 15:44

Then something's wrong either in my XP, mpc-hc or the video.

By mpc-hc internal splitter you mean exactly what? The "mp4/mov internal filter"?
I've tried enabling all the ac3&mp4 source & transform filters inside mpc-hc but no help.

Kurtnoise

4th March 2009, 16:08

I clearly hear AC3 sound from your sample...

http://uppix.net/4/4/d/860ec71ca9e8ff3d7db016ce6bbdb.png (http://uppix.net/4/4/d/860ec71ca9e8ff3d7db016ce6bbdb.html)

I'm using AC3 internal decoder filter & MP4 internal splitter...

Damie

4th March 2009, 17:28

No matter what I do, the same properties window inside mpc-hc shows only the video stream to me. :confused:

Kurtnoise

4th March 2009, 20:45

1/ Remove all your MPC-HC install folder.
2/ Remove the registry key at HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Gabest\
3/ Reinstall MPC-HC from here (http://www.xvidvideo.ru/component/option,com_docman/task,doc_download/gid,1270/).
4/ Retry to play your file.

If that fails once again...:stupid:

Damie

4th March 2009, 21:04

Finally got it to work. :thanks: for keeping up!

Deleting the registry key & uninstalling Haali did the trick. After that I was able to install Haali again with no interfere.

SeeMoreDigital

5th April 2009, 14:17

Hi all,

Does anybody know whether the latest version of Recode 4 has been updated to correctly mux AC3 audio streams within the .MP4 container to the revised specification?

Globerex

12th April 2009, 11:44

Sharktooth

12th April 2009, 16:30

have you tried with mp4box/YAMB?
if it doesnt, the next time think twice before using proprietary stuff...

Globerex

13th April 2009, 13:32

Thanks for your tip. Unfortunately MP4Box stucks with the audio steam

I've opened an new thread. Don't want to hijack this one.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146329

SealTooGreat

7th July 2009, 08:45

Hi all,

Does anybody know whether the latest version of Recode 4 has been updated to correctly mux AC3 audio streams within the .MP4 container to the revised specification?

I would like to expand that question:

Does somebody know an easy method (batch) to demux Nero Recode mp4 containers with AC3/h264 done in the "Nero way" and remux the Audio/Video in the corrected, new way?

It it possible to remux old nero containers to mkv in a batched way?

NeMP4Remux (http://www.nero.com/redir.php?id=4568) (Apr-27-2009)

NeMP4Remux.exe -h
NeMP4Remux - Nero Digital MP4 Remultiplexing Utility - (c) 2009 by Nero AG
This software is provided free of charge and "as-is", no warranty of any kind.
Build: Apr 27 2009

Usage: NeMP4Remux.exe <in.mp4> <out.mp4>

My AC 3 audio tracks, created with Nero Recode, cannot be played back. Why?

With the implementation of the official ETSI-standard for AC-3 storage in MP4 in the latest version of Nero 9, Nero Digital MP4 files are fully compatible with the current and future industry standard.
Nero Digital MP4 files that were created in older Nero Recode versions (before Nero Recode 4 / Nero 9) are not compatible with the current and future industry standard.
Therefore we provide a command line conversion tool which patches Nero Digital MP4 files that use the old style for the AC-3 audio track to Nero Digital MP4 files using the official ETSI-standard to ensure compatibility with future devices and software.
Please proceed as follows:
Download the file NeMP4Remux.zip, save this file to your desktop.
NeMP4Remux
Unzip the ZIP-file with WinZip or WinRAR and save the content to your hard drive.
To patch your older files with help of the command line so that they are compatible with newer versions proceed as follows:
Click "Start" in the Windows start menu.
Click the "Run" command.
The window "Run" will open.
Enter "cmd" in the "Open" text field and click the "OK" button.
The DOS window will open.
Browse to the NeMP4Remux.exe path (where you extracted the *.exe file) and enter “space” > input file “space” > output file
eg: C:\Dokuments and Settings\\Desktop\NeMP4Remux.exe
We would like to draw your attention to the following:
Files created with Nero Recode 4 are already created according to industry standard (ETSI) compliant AC-3 audio tracks by default, so no conversion is needed in this case to ensure compatibility with future devices and software.
Nero ShowTime 4 will not recognize the AC-3 audio track in the converted file,so please keep the original files for playback in Nero 8.

http://www.nero.com/ena/support-faq.html?s=sub&t=Recode
http://www.nero.com/eng/support-faq.html?s=sub&t=AC3

It seems that this tool has been rarely used. Type "NeMP4Remux.exe" in the google search. :eek: