Weird playback on set top player: progressive vs non progressive

[Areku]

Hi!

I do convert 2 DVD movies onto 1 single DVD5 using RobShot/Doom9 method (CCE), and they play OK on set top players, but for example, if I try to do the same with the musical videos coming with the DVDs (extras), I get a weird playback on set top players...

DVDMaestro preview them fine, but when played on my Panasonic DVD unit, playback is jerky and resembles to a tremolo effect on the images...

This only happens with the extras. When using the method, if I leave progressive frames enabled, the tremolo comes along with jerky white lines. If I disable the progressive frames, the lines disappear but the image is jerky as well. DVDMaestro plays them back fine though.

Ideas?

Thanks!

[SiC]

That's usually caused by incorrect field order when you encoded the video. Leave the movie part the way it is and try reversing the field order for the extra part.

[Areku]

How do I do that? ;)

Files are different for the movie and the trailer so i can make any changes to the music videos only.

Do I leave progressive frames enabled or dis?

[SiC]

In CCE either put the check mark ON or OFF to Upper Field First to change the field order.

[Areku]

The thing is that both (the one with upper field on and the one with off) look OK in Windows media player....

How can I tell then if I'm doing it right with DVDMaestro? How do I know it will play OK on the standalone?

Since I normally check Upper field, should I uncheck it ALONG WITH progressive frames?

Tu!

[SiC]

I suggest using a DVD-RW to test burn for this one. I too have not found how to test before you author with Maestro. This only occurs when working with interlaced mpeg2. What I do is author, burn to RW, and test on standalone. If the field order is wrong, I get the mpv file and use pulldown.exe on it to change the field order.

[Falken]

it is possible to change the filed order after the encoding...??

I alway get the jerky video if I leave the upperfield check on, the output is jerky alway.

I tried both type of videos..who have upper or lower field.

[SiC]

It is possible to change after encoding, use pulldown.exe. From my experience it doesn't matter what setting I use in CCE, Upper Field First ON or OFF, and it always flickers for interlaced DVD. So I always use pulldown.exe on it after encoding with CCE. The command to use with pulldown.exe is:

pulldown.exe source.m2v target.m2v -nopulldown -tff even

All of the interlaced videos where I had to use pulldown on, I had to set the fields to EVEN, so that is the command.

[Areku]

I thought u mentioned pulldown was only for NTSC stuff... Does it work for PAL stuff as well?

[SiC]

To add 3:2 pulldown is only needed for NTSC. But pulldown.exe isn't just for adding pulldowns, it can change field orders too in PAL or NTSC.

[mikeathome]

Hi,

alternatively you can use Darim's MPEGChanger which is part of DVMPEG.
MPEGChanger shows you actual field order so you can easy change to the opposite.
Wrong field order of interlaced video can't be seen on PC monitor, since playback is always progressive. As soon as you send it to a TV a wrong field order will lead to terrible image jumping.
You can try to use your video out on your Graphics Adapter (if it got one).

Field order change, as well as aspect ratio is stored in the MPEG header and has NO impact on the picture content (yes, the aspect ratio as well, I did long tests with that).
You can patch the MPEG header with Pulldown.exe, DVDPatcher, Bitrateviewer (Pro Version) and / or Darim MPEGChanger. There's an Italien program Aviestone which works as well.

I did a few posts about this, try search for '2010' and mikeathome.

mike

[Areku]

But do I need to run pulldown stuff along with recompression disabling the upper field thing or is the upperfield recompression not necessary at all if using pulldown?
;)

[SiC]

There is no need for re-encoding, just change the field order of the already encoded mpeg2.

[Areku]

OK will try that.

Any MPEG reader that would tell me if an MPEG is in even or odd sequence?

U didn't mentioned about the progressive setting in CCE when encoding this type of video stream... ;)

[Areku]

New error after aplying pulldown.exe to the .mpv file resulting from CCE with the Upper Field First enabled and Progressive frames disabled on DVDMaestro:

Error: Illegal picture resolution.


Ideas?

Remember it's PAL stuff.

[SiC]

Hmm, weird that you got that error but you can fix that with DVD Patcher. Patch the header to the correct resolution size.

[Areku]

Couldnt find any DVDPatcher on the software list,... any hint?

Tu!

Ps. On the video I pulldown, do I need to uncheck progressive frames? do I need to uncheck upperfield?

[SiC]

http://mitglied.lycos.de/dvdpatcher/
This isn't warez or anything so the link should be fine.

"Ps. On the video I pulldown, do I need to uncheck progressive frames? do I need to uncheck upperfield?" You must be talking about the progressive frames in CCE. Since your source isn't progressive, you shouldn't check that. But I really don't think it will hurt if you have it checked.

[mikeathome]

Originally posted by Areku
New error after aplying pulldown.exe to the .mpv file resulting from CCE with the Upper Field First enabled and Progressive frames disabled on DVDMaestro:
Error: Illegal picture resolution.
Ideas? Remember it's PAL stuff.

Ok, I have the impression we need to clarify a few things:

- NO pulldown on PAL content !
* pulldown is to perform a 'conversion' of Film Material at 24fps (23.976fps) to NTSC TV norm 29.97fps, for both progressive and interlaced material
* to 'convert' Film to PAL a frame replicate will be done every 1 second, 24fps -> 25 fps together with a sound stretch, this results in a 4% 'error'
* if you have the impression the original was from Film (99% rule in DVD2AVI) you can perform a 'Force Film' (NTSC ONLY !!!) to remove the pulldown and encode progressive with CCESP, this will lead in smaller files and better compression together with better image quality
* if the NTSC is interlaced, NO Force Film, encode interlaced
* if it switches (in DVD2AVI) between Film and interlaced, well, it's difficult to say, it may be still from original Film content, try Decomb, don't ask me, I don't know !
* NO Force Film on PAL !!! leads to weird results (framerate 20fps e.g)

- you CAN NOT convert NTSC to PAL (or vice versa) by applying pulldown only, the picture resolution between NTSC and PAL is different (xxx X 576 (PAL) vs. xxx X 480 (NTSC)) -> your Maestro error (framerate has to comply with the picture resolution !)
* you need to re-encode and resize and change framerate, a few hints how to perform with AviSynth you'll find in this board

- you can change the field order and the aspect ratio AFTER encoding, DARIM MpegChanger and Bitrateviewer show you the actual field order, so that you can change to the opposite iff you get weird results while playback on a TV
- you have to set to progressive in the encoder (e.g. CCESP) since I personally don't know how to patch the MPEG stream to progressive afterwards, no tool, I don't even know if it is possible at all since the encoder acts quite a bit different on progressive material compared to interlaced
- remember: if set to progressive the encoder will need LESS bits to encode, due to combined fields (less motion information to store, since both fields of a frame assumed to have same picture content !)


I hope that clarifies it a bit more.

mike

[Areku]

OK then, NO pulldown with PAL stuff, even if it's just to update field order.

Now, I have DVDPatcher.

How do I change field order with it? How do I know current field order?

Thanks!

[SiC]

-hmm, nobody was talking about converting NTSC to PAL or vice versa with pulldown.
-We weren't even talking about adding pulldowns...... just swapping field orders with the program "pulldown.exe". Although the program's name is "PULLDOWN" it CAN be used to swap field orders without messing with the pulldown settings.
-Why set interlaced material as progressive in CCE??? Even if you flag it as progressive the content will still be interlaced since you are not deinterlacing with CCE. If you deinterlace the material in a video editing software such as Premiere, then you should encode as progressive in CCE.

[Areku]

The hope is that with DVDPatcher I won't b getting the corrupted format error DVDMaestro reports with pulleddown stuff...

So how does DVDPatcher work?

Tu!

[mikeathome]

Hi,

you can't change Field Order with DVDPatcher.
Try to get hold of Darim DVMPEG MPEGChanger.

mike

[Areku]

aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!

[Mnemonic]

Sic was trying to tell you how to use pulldown to change fieldorder, when you got the error in maestro did you use the -nopulldown option???

pulldown.exe source.m2v target.m2v -nopulldown -tff even

[Areku]

Obviously I did.

THen, no reason to get the Illegal Resolution error in DVDMaestro, right?

[Pauly]

Hi Guys,

The reason DVDMaestro reports "Illegal Resolution" is that by default pulldown patches the output m2v file to 29.97fps!
Therefore you need to add an extra option to Sic's command line
"-framerate 25" to give you:

pulldown.exe source.m2v target.m2v -nopulldown -framerate 25 -tff even

This then produces a valid PAL mpeg file.

Hope this helps

Paul

[Areku]

Just tried that and reauthored recording result to a DVDRW.

It KEEPS vibrating (forgot to mention, you can notice the flicker on ANY important movement on the screen, ie camera travelling even if it's slowly, but won't notice on lips nor eyes movement).


JFYI, on Doom9's guide, he mentions both reading should read "FRAME" but I do have one reading FRAME and one reading FIELD. SO I unchecked the progressive frames setting on CCE but left Upper field first setting enabled.

I just checked videos with Bitrate and set options on CCE accordingly, then pulldowned...

What's the story morning glory??

What else can I try?

I don't think it's that hard!


Tu!

[Falken]

When ever I encode I tried uncheck the Upper Filed option...
Coz it alwayz give me flikered video..
even if the source video have upper field.

[Areku]

You were rite m8!!

Disabling upper field first even if that info was enabled on Bitrateviewer PLUS disabling progressive frames, PLUS NOT pullingdown the resulting mpv resulted in non flicker on the videos!

Finally.

Thanks! ;)