DVD to SVCD menu guide?

[RadicalEd]

time to start something up...
-note- if this process is actually painfully obvious and unnaturally commonly known, then at least pretend I came up with something big so I feel important (kidding of course... hit the third poll option if that be the case)

I discovered awhile ago a relatively painless (as long as you have some free time) method for transferring an entire DVD menu system over to (S)VCD. Originally I was going to post the way to do this, but instead I'm wondering if the subject generates enough interest to warrant a guide. If enough people would like to see a guide on reproducing DVD menus on (S)VCD's, I'd be glad to dedicate a few hours toward it. I find it pretty cool to not be able to differentiate between the DVD and the SVCD based on layout, and I'm sure a few of you out there are perfectionists too, so do me a favor and vote, I'd love to help out as long as its going to be productive. I'll be awaiting a verdict, and if you have any questions, be assured I'll be checking the post pretty often so ask away.

-note- I still have some research into the process to do, such as how much space to use for menus, but I'm polling to find out if I should go ahead with that research and produce the guide. As always, comments of any sort are much appreciated.

-update-
I added a link to the DVD2SVCD Basic forum, because the guide will most likely focus on the use of DVD2SVCD for generating the main movie files (thought I should mention that beforehand)

[Boulder]

Anything that would make the best even better is great! Are you thinking about combining it with DVD2SVCD so that the encoding is mostly done there and the SVCD would just have to be completed manually? Maybe it could be plugged into DVD2SVCD?

[RadicalEd]

@Boulder
Erm.. well I have to hubly admit, I could use brushing up on my programming skills. I'm not really trying to incorporate a menu program into DVD2SVCD (a built in TSCV-esque program would make DVD2SVCD way too good to be free ;) ).

I'm (most likely) going to write a guide describing a (again, slightly tedious) step-by-step process for duplicating the menu system of a DVD. Although, thinking over the process, it might be theoretically possible to automate it to some extent, I'll have to explore that possibility.

I still probably couldn't program it, but perhaps someone could take the idea and implement it. That part is my own speculation, but I'll look into it further (the point of the poll really, to see if anyone would be interested in having the concept explored further) I do lots of crazy tests like that, its just now I can share 'em with the forum as well (heheheh... whether or not thats a good thing for you guys I don't know) :D

anyway back to the point, that's really a great idea, incorporating a sort of automated menu-copier, and I'll definately explore that possibility.

[Boulder]

Who knows, maybe DVD2SVCD will add it to his excellent package. If the thing could be done by using different (preferably freeware) programs, it should be possible to add the menu option to DVD2SVCD as well. After all, it's all about commanding the programs automagically instead of running each one of them manually. It would probably need a lot of testing but that's what this forum is very useful for;)

[Zoltan]

Ed, while I am really interested in this functionality, I am just curious how this method could work with an SVCD.

Since SVCD PBC mode does not support cursors, hoovering of click sensitive areas that a DVD menu can do, would it be based upon the technology TSCV moving menus are working? Menu MPEG plays repeatedly while PBC enabled XML controlled player listens to your keystrokes (numbers, prev, next and OK, but no arrows) on your remote?

Thanks,
Z

[Zoltan]

vBulletin did not accept my vote, so here a YES :)

Z

[oldpainless]

Gets my vote....IF it can be done.

:)

[RadicalEd]

@Zoltan
I remember a thread awhile back about the possibility of having overlays in SVCD menus similar to that of DVDs. I don't know if this is possible (in fact, that is really the only remaining difference between SVCD menus and DVD menus).

The basis of the guide would be to assist in explaining how to copy menus off of the DVD, seperate them and re-encode them, and then design the XML (probably in TSCV) so that the structure of the DVD menu system is basically restored.

It isn't an extremely compicated process but once again it is tedious and understanding the complex menu layout of the resulting SVCD would require some explaining, thats why I want to write up a little guide on it.

Okay, hopefully everyone is in the clear now, if not, let me know whats up and I'll do my best to explain and keep everybody clear 'n happy :)

[RadicalEd]

Ive come to a revelation of sorts while re-reading some of the VCDImager guides over at vcdimager.org. Because of you guys I've thought over the possibility of having a program be able to do this for you (an idea that I probably would have never came up with on my own, thanks for the inspiration!).

Up until now all I could come up with was the possibility of a program in which you would still have to find out the values manually and enter them, whereas the program could automate the extraction, encoding, and placement of the files (despite appearances, that wouldn't be extremely more efficient or easier than doing it manually with the guide). But then I realised something, I had completely overlooked the content of the DVD's ifo files!

Now, I have a lot of research to do on ifo structure and the technical details behind DVD menu systems, but theoretically I'll venture to guess that it would be possible to create a program that could identify the menu information using the ifo (I'm assuming this is where the chapter and selection information is contained... thats how much reading up on it I have to do e.e).

It should be possible to identify menu locations and functions using the DVD. Once that information is gathered, there would have to be some sort of way to transfer the values into the VCD's xml language. If both of those are possible (and I haven't come up with a reason why they wouldnt be) then it would be very possible to create a program that could automatically transfer menus from DVD to (S)VCD in a similar way that D2S (only the greatest prog ever) transfers the main movie.

Now this is all theory, and I have a lot of researching to do, but like I said I don't see why it would be impossible. On top of that, I can't exactly program (yet) but I dont see why that would be impossible in the future either. Sorry to spend so long on some unconfirmed hype, but I really think this may be a possibility after all and to have (let alone create) a fully automated DVDM2SVCDM program would be awesome. (heck, then it could be incorporated as part of DVD2SVCD, and youd just have an entire DVD copying system in one prog. But now I'm getting a little out of scope. Not that I've been in scope per say.. but.. oh, sorry, I'm rambling again).

Gah, pardon the large scale thinking, I'll work on verifying things before I go ranting about how awesome they might be :o
but if anyone out there is extensively knowledgable on the aspects of DVD ifo files, contact me, I'm excited to check out the validity of my theory.

[RadicalEd]

Okay, I've done some research and formed a plan of work. I'm going to focus right now on creating a small guide describing how to find your menus, cut them, redo them to suit your purpose, and then string them back together in a manner similar to the original.

The idea that it is possible to identify menus automatically with information given on the DVD interests me a great lot, and I plan on doing some research into this (anyone who knows anything about this, please let me know), but it is out of the scope of the original guide I had planned to write. So, I'll work on that and then check into improving the process.

Thats great, through some simple ideas sparked in the forum, I've come up with some completely new concepts. I didnt have anything groundbreaking when I started this thread, but I think I may be on to something with the whole ifo thing. Behold, a new opportunity to figure stuff out and do testing!

Thanks for the positive input guys, I'll see you all (hopefully) when the guides done! :D

[Doom9]

hmm.. I was under the impression that SVCD menus do not offer multilayer overlay and buttons, but only remote keys mapped to a certain functionality.

[ScooterMyth]

Maybe he knows something we don't Doom9. I was under that same impression.

BTW - I'm back from my business travelling. I hope to be more attentive to my moderating.

Scooter

[RadicalEd]

ack! x,x
please don't misunderstand, I don't know how to create overlays in an SVCD menu or if this is possible. The numerical selections make up for this though. By adding a few 1s, 2s, etc. to the actual menu, one can compensate for the loss of overlay selections. The idea behind my method for copying menus lies in the fact that one can make a menu system on an SVCD using the features of SVCD xml in such a way that it *appears* more or less exactly the same as the menu system of a DVD. That is, by fine-tuning the xml, it is possible to include the original menus from the DVD, the transitions, and basically reproduce the visual layout of the menu systems used in DVDs.

I hope I'm not confusing anybody or giving people the impression that I know how to do something when I really dont :(

- on another theoretical note, perhaps in fact it is possible to include overlays, after all, subtitles are exactly that are they not? It would seem to make sense that there would be some sort of method for including overlays in a menu (hmm.. but then subtitles arent interactive either..)

well I'll leave theories well enough alone, seems I've confused enough people as is.

Sorry if I haven't been clear enough, my intention is to help people out who want to recreate their menus as best they can with the limitations of the SVCD's xml. This means doing away with selectable overlays, but as I said that can be compensated for with the numerical selections that SVCD does support.

Anyway, I'll work on a better description of what you really can and can not do when working with DVD menus that you want to convert to SVCD (there are a few limitations, but these can usually be overcome so that the menus will at least appear to be replicas of the DVD menus)

Sorry for confusing you guys, I'll do some research into the possibility of overlays, but until I do, consider it impossible :(

[Aussie]

Well, if I remember correctly, you said that you have had this menu system working on your SVCD's right? Good enough for me. I am looking forward, albeit impatiently...lol.., for your tutorial.

One question...can this be incorporated into a SVCD once created by DVD2SVCD? I LOVE that program and have NEVER failed to copy a DVD yet.

If you are looking for a newbie to check your tutorial I am volunteering. I have only done about 10 DVD's so far so I more than qualify for a tester. You can reach me at cousineau@optushome.com.au . Anything to get a jump on this. :D

Aussie

[RadicalEd]

hmm... kind of a bad time to be asking but.. does anyone know of a good program or vdub plugin that allows you to edit numbers into the video? ^.^' That would help a little since youd need to add numbers to the menus so that people know whats a selection and what isn't.

on a better note, by doing some research about DVDs, I found out that by using VOBRator with a menu VOB, you can split the menus automatically! Since theyre divided into their own cells, each menu and transition can be split apart like that ::snaps fingers:: this may not seem like a tremendous disovery but considering I used to just go through the VOB in DVD2AVI and try to find the menu's start point and end point and split that way, this is a huge advance in efficiency.

Its stuff like that that leads me to believe a program for doing this automatically could be in fact very easy to design.

more on DVDs, I was searching through the menu VOB's IFO file in IFO edit trying to find where exactly the action information exists. By that I mean what part of the IFO describes like, this selection tells the menu to go to this transition and etc. I think I may have found it and any of you guys who have extensive knowledge of IFO structure and the like, check this (http://www.angelfire.com/anime3/airanime/)
out for me and tell me if thats it (its a 1024x768 screencap of IFOedit and the part that I'm guessing is the information describing menu actions is boxxed in by the orange rectangle)

Once I confirm this info then I may be close to figuring out a way to translate it into SVCD-able XML :D (meaning that the whole automatic menu-transfer idea is closer than I thought)

One last concern for the night (why does it seem like my posts are obnoxiously longer than all the others ^^')
I'm a little concerned about the size of DVD menus. The first complete menu system I copied over was 2520 kbps cbr and it took up
150 megs for all the menus and all the transitions (not including trailers or intros) okay, menus dont have a whole lot of movement so half that and the menus take up about 70 megs total. So I guess you should really save around 100 megs for decent menus, and that sort of begs the question of how practical it is. But once again, the process is more geared towards perfectionists (not like I'm one... :rolleyes: )

well I suppose I have some more testing to do on how large or how small menus should be (perhaps you could bring it down to 50 megs, that isnt so bad, and just pretend your using a 74 min cd) anyway Doom9 or anybody familiar with IFO structure, take a look at that cap for me and lemme know if I'm on the right track (this stuff is interesting! :) ) And if anyone is aware of a program that can insert numbers or characters into a video, point me to it please! ^^'

Ah, Aussie, I've been so busy checking into the whole automatic thing that I havent organized the guide much, but I could try to organize a quick draft by maybe monday and ship it off for ya to see if its newbie-friendly and stuff (actually I'm new to writing guides so thats prolly a good idea ^^')

right now I'm trying to see what I can do to make the process easier by implementing some of the ideas about IFO files and stuff (and so far thanks to VOBrator I've succeeded :D ) so thats why I havent gotten any solid guide work done yet but like I said I could prolly start it and just adjust as I figure out better ways to do stuff (I still really need to find a program that can add numbers into the video though ^^')

Alright if anyone can help out with either the number program thing or with the IFO information please contact me, until then, off to do more research!

-edit- ack, yea you confirmed my fears about the image, I just put the pic on the main page (theres nothing else there anyway)

[Aussie]

Sounds great...unfortunately, as you probably learned, you cant host an image on Angelfire. As for the tutorial, I would MORE than happy to check it out and test it :)

[Doom9]

actually.. what you found is way beyond SVCD capabilities. All the pre and post scripting using registers (it almost looks like an region check but you'd have to ask derrow to make sure) is not possible for SVCDs. The actual menu navigation is much simpler normally.

[RadicalEd]

hmm... I'll go ask around the miniDVD forum and see if anyone knows where the basic menu actions are stored. I found the button location parameters and information in the VOB file so perhaps the action information is around there somewhere.

[Pko]

Originally posted by RadicalEd
hmm... kind of a bad time to be asking but.. does anyone know of a good program or vdub plugin that allows you to edit numbers into the video? ^.^' That would help a little since youd need to add numbers to the menus so that people know whats a selection and what isn't.


You can use avisynth and use the "subtitle" option; you can select any text, any instaled font, any position, any color, any stile you want, and it is anti-aliased, so it looks great.

Also, if you prefer to use more complex graphics, you can use Donald Graft's "logo" plugin for VD, and simply make a GIF (even animated!) for each number.

In fact, I had just had an idea for animated menus that I want to explore; if it works, I'll post here that information for you since it can be very helpful.

[RadicalEd]

Perfect! Thats exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. I was wondering if there was an avisynth script that could do that. Many many thanks Pko, time to go test it out!

As for your idea, can't wait to hear it, I'm all for theorizing and testing! :D
(thats what happens when you have too much free time :rolleyes: )

oh and I'm awaiting a response from the DVD/miniDVD forum concerning the location of menu instructions so we'll see what the deal there is soon.

[phantomlord]

great exactly what I need for my rips!!

[RadicalEd]

hehehe :D
here we go...

Well after getting the guide organized (more or less) yesterday and re-evaluating my methods, I looked it over and came to the conclusion that-

yes indeed, with the right programming expertise, a program almost identical to DVD2SVCD can be created for the purpose of transferring menus over painlessley and perfectly.

I know next to nothing about programming, and its time to learn. I have the structure worked out completely, and eventually, once the program has become stable on its own, I'm hoping the great DVD2SVCD himself would be willing to work with me to integrate "Menu2SVCD" into the DVD2SVCD program.
Hopefully I could get a tiny "Extra2SVCD" proggie produced as well and eventually one would just be able to copy the entire content of the DVD disc onto SVCD. That may mean doing more 2 and 3 cd rips but the CD is on its way out and I want to make the most of it while its still around.

Dont have a spazm yet, the program is a while off (month+ maybe, i really dont know) what I'm saying now is that its no longer theory but reality.

As for the guide-
of course I'm still gonna make it, like I said I got the structure and method worked out yesterday. From the guide it will be possible to develop the program.

If anyone has the immense desire to contribute programming skills to the project get in touch with me, I want to take some time to learn programming myself but help never hurts (well.. usually never :rolleyes: )

heheheh, well off to learn VB

[Aussie]

Good on ya m8. I am looking forward to your tutorial. I can not help with any programming experience but, like I offered before, I would be more than willing to be your guinea pig to try out your tutorial. Being a newbie I can give you that other prospective and let you know what, if anything, I found too confusing. I will sit down with my Vic Bitters (or Fosters to name a more popular brand) in one hand and your guide in the other and give it a whirl.

I am still amazed at the great work you guys put out and offer to us newbies...and for FREEEEEE..amazing. Thank you so very much.

[orbit-r]

sounds very good radical ed,
if it works it will be loved by many many people i think

hopefully
orbit-r

[RadicalEd]

ah.. guys.. you'd better take a look at this (http://www.angelfire.com/anime3/airanime/hotspot.html)

:eek:

Am I losing coherency or did I just read from the VCDImager manual that DVD-style selections are absolutely possible in an SVCD???

eek! if this is for real, have you all any idea what this means??

1. Menu2SVCD just got a hell of a lot easier
2. DVD menus can be reproduced in their entirety
3. no editing of the video necessary at all

hmm hmm ... not widely supported... hmm

this is very interesting indeed, seems I shall have to do a few tests.

I could be misinterpreting as well, I suppose I'll find out shortly

Well I'll have to go check this out, I'll report back with my findings as soon as I.. er.. find them! ^^'

[Doom9]

um.. where's that from?

[RadicalEd]

Its a screencap of the VCDImager manual that comes with VCDImager.
Heres (http://www.angelfire.com/anime3/airanime/fulscrn.html) a cap of the whole screen if that helps any.

I'm still investigating this operation but hopefully I'll have a good image mounted on Daemon by the end of the night. I'm sort of in the dark as to what this type of selection does, but once again hopefully I'll have it figured out by the next time I'm on the boards.

[sifonjoe]

I'm using DVDx for create SVCD from DVD.
It's very simple for using and output is good.

Now I'm interesting about surround audio for SVCD.
Do you have any information?

[dvd2svcd]

sifonjoe: You are completely off topic. Start by reading the rules, then, make a search, and if you get no hits start a new thread :angry:

[sifonjoe]

I'm sorry for all.

[Pko]

Originally posted by RadicalEd
I'm still investigating this operation but hopefully I'll have a good image mounted on Daemon by the end of the night. I'm sort of in the dark as to what this type of selection does, but once again hopefully I'll have it figured out by the next time I'm on the boards.

It is possible in theory, but unfortunately I haven't see it to work anywhere yet...

First, in standalone players is difficult to implement: how should them show to the user which option is selected? perhaps drawing some rectangle on screen, but it is complex and ugly, and there are very few SVCDs out there with this feature (and "prev", "next", "play", "return" keys already work along with numeric keys).

Second, the only software player I know that supports SVCD menus (WinDVD) does NOT support it for now. But if it supports them in a future version, it will be very good news since navigating the menus clicking with the mouse in the player's buttons is akward at best.

That would permit very easy full screen navigation, though, so it is wise to implement hot spots now in any menu-generating tools since in the future perhaps a player will appear that will support them.

[RadicalEd]

@Pko
PowerDVD 4 works flawlessley with SVCDs and allows this feature :)

About these selections, I threw together a small menu containing one of these buttons and tossed it into Daemon and then played with PowerDVD and-
It works, pretty nicely actually. I'll have to wait until tomorrow to try this on my standalone though.

The mouse recognizes the selection but no sort of box is drawn around it, I'll have to find out if there is any way to implement such a feature.

As for the guide, I'm trying to wait until all of this stuff is rooted out (just when I think I'm ready to start writing something new and testable comes up :rolleyes: )

And as for the program, since this feature is "not widely supported" I'm thinking perhaps that it would be wise to implement the numerical insertion and the hotspot insertion until more players support it.

We'll see how things play out

I'm also still trying to find out how to identify menu instructions on the DVD but my post in the DVD forum seems to have slipped out of the contemporary range :(

and I believe I set the poll for 7 days so its closed as of today I guess. Thanks guys for all the support.. that has to be one of the highest poll success rates in the history of the forum (46 yes, 0 no, 0 already know how to) wow. Well I'm definately glad I started the thread and the poll because its effectively transformed a difficult painstaking menu transfer process into an eventual DVD2SVCD clone made specifically for menus. Hopefully this will help spruce up all SVCDs. I do suggest adding a touch of one's own creativity now and then and to use this simply for creating pure backups of DVDs. One's options are nearly unlimited though.

So thats the update. I'll have final tests done this weekend and then I can finally start the real work. I'll post the results of the hotspot testing as soon as I get it done. Till then, later

[RadicalEd]

Okay, results are in. I got an set of menus copied and included the hotspots in the xml. Once again, it worked great in PowerDVD, but not surprisingly, my standalone had no way of recognizing them.

I'm not sure what I expected from the standalone, but the idea of navigating with the arrow buttons on a dvd remote would obviously require that the arrow buttons are recognized by SVCD xml, which (to my knowledge) isn't possible.

I guess my question now would be what exactly are the boundaries of xml anyway? Does any single site, guide, or manual outline every possible instruction that is recognized by an SVCD? It seems not a lot of people have known about hotspots (well... they arent widely implemented, so that isnt much of a surprise) but is that the only unknown instruction or are there more...

DVD's run their menus through a process a lot more complex than simple SVCD xml so in a crusade such as this every type of explored or unexplored function is valuable.

Actually... I want to invite you guys back here (http://www.angelfire.com/anime3/airanime/fulscrn.html)
this time, take note of section 1.7.3.4 and 1.7.4, the last two sections at the bottom.
It seems there are quite a few features of xml that are not widely used, I'm interested in the applications section especially. The guys who wrote this had to be extra mysterious and put "to be written..." as well. hmmm...

As for the guide, let me warn you, if you have a DVD with an art gallery, authoring is going to be hell >< trust me, I ran through the process this weekend. This is why a program, as well as knowledge about where the DVD's menu info is held (thanks a lot DVD forum >,< kidding..kidding dont massacre me!) will be extremely useful. Anyway my new cause (never a dull moment...and when the heck is the guide going to get done e.e) is for any xml super-experts out there to enlighten us to any new and unknown functions that may be locked away in the hidden confines of SVCD xml! (oo..cryptic sounding)

Well I've terrorized you people enough for one night, seeyou all tomorrow! :D

[Pko]

Originally posted by RadicalEd
@Pko
PowerDVD 4 works flawlessley with SVCDs and allows this feature :)

Great news for me! thanks!

I think I will change my player soon... :-)

BTW, in www.vcdimager.org you have lots of info about XML creation, look for example at

http://www.vcdimager.org/pub/vcdimager/examples/xml/

[Pko]

Reading some of the XML examples in the link I just posted, I've found something I think is interesting...

Usually, I implement "chapters" using selections, I think that VCDEasy and DVD2SVCD both use this.

But that has a problem; when you start viewing at chapter "one" and press "next", you allways jump to chapter "two", even if you pressed it after chapter "two"'s start!

For example, a movie has "chapters" on 00:00, 01:10, 03:30, 05:20

You start at chapter "one" at 00:00; after viewing 2:30 of the movie, you press "next" and jump backwards to chapter "two" at 01:10, not jump to the "logical" point at the next chapter break, chapter "thre" at 03:30.

The problem is not usually aparent because if you press "next" just after starting the chapter (that is what is usually done) the next "logical" chapter and the next "numeric" chapter are the same.

It is a limitation of VCD/SVCD, but perhaps it could be a little aleviated using multidefault; if I understand how that works, it simply jumps when the "enter" or "play" button is pressed to the selection indicated by the chapter it is playing when the key is pressed. So, the jump to the next "logical" chapter could be implemented that way, unfortunately I think that the multidefault option cannot be used with the "next" and "prev" buttons, since if it could, that would allow perfect "logical" navigation as it is done on DVDs.

[adam]

Hotspots are CDI functions and the only hardware players that will accept them are CDI players, which I don't think even support svcds, not to mention the fact that CDI players aren't too popular anymore. I don't think there is any hardare dvd player that is going to recongize a hotspot function, though most software dvd players do seem to work. It is possible to do some really incredible effects with hotspots. I've authored some vcds with great hotspot functions using VideoPack 4.0. If only I had a CDI player.

The type of navigations allued to earlier in this post are something that I have been doing for quite some time now. I use Adobe Image ready and insert a neon rollover, which I swear looks exactly the same as what %50 of dvds use, on top of my "selection" and make several backgrounds each with a different selection highlighted and use the next and previous buttons to navigate. I really think thats the most you can do with the svcd format in terms of duplicating the dvd navigational structure.

Pko that is a limitation that I too have noticed. You may want to look into how I-Author uses exit points. I have created some svcds with "true" dvd-like chapters but unfortanately, I-Author doesnt seem to accomplish this very well. The points to which it jumps seems sporatic.

In case its not clear, I talking about setting the exit of the previous chapter to the same time as the entrypoint of the next chapter. So this way, when chapter 1 is finished it will actually jump to chapter 2 by itself, and all subsequent navigation commands will be from chapter 2 instead of chapter 1 like it usually is. I'm not sure if this jump would be seamless on all dvd player but it is on mine, whereas the jump from one track to another isn't. Perhaps someone can find a way to work around I-Author's apparant bugs or maybe incorporate exit points into a more stable program like vcdimager, using some creative XML scripting.

[RadicalEd]

Ok well I've kind of gotten way off track the last few days reading about DVD structures and programming and the like. I've been so caught up in the hotspots and stuff that I forgot about the guide ^^'

So I'm finally gonna get the damn thing written and hopefully up by saturday, then we can resume the theorizing and similar activity.

I've been wanting to get back on the last few posts and check some things out but I've put it off long enough so I'm finally gonna get busy (sorry for being so sporadic)

Alright time to start typing and capping, laters

-edit-
yay! DVD2SVCD 1.0.8, rejoyce! Sorry, off topic, just had to share the joy. New versions of D2S call for celebrations! okay, back to work.

-edit2-
::sigh:: yes yes, Saturday has come and gone. My apologies, I had half of the guide written on saturday when I decided to yet again restructure the whoole process, meaning I had to start the guide again from scrap. Anyway as of now I'm back to about half way through and now that its the week I'll try to get in as many hours as possible. Who knew writing guides was such an exhausting process,
my heart goes out to you Doom9 ;)