dolby digital audio in svcd

[eciatasa]

does anybody know how to put an ac3-audiostream into a svcd ? i´d like to have dolby digital on my svcds ...

thnx
eciatasa

[orbit-r]

hi
there is a way to put an ac3 stream onto a svcd(f.e. bbmpeg muxing)
but i think the player will not play it, cause svcd format doesn`t allow dd 5.1 only multichannel sound, but only 2 standalones will play this(i believe philips)

a mini dvd allows you to have dolby digital..

gruss orbit-r

[markrb]

The next version is suppose to have the ability to do something like this, but if you plan to play it on a DVD player good luck as orbit-r said there are only two known players that this works with.

Check the DVD2SVCD homepage for more info.

Mark

[jaay]

i know this is probably daft, but if there was a way to use a pcm wav file on a svcd or vcd (although it would eat space!) then we could use surcode cd pro dts to have a dts (s)vcd ;)

[DSPguru]

have anyone tried playbacking a svcd+ac3 film ?
today i've added support for ac3 encoding for BeSweet, so i think it would be very interesting if you could include a 5.1ac3@224kbps track in your svcd instead of 2.0mp2@224kbps.


btw, another reference :
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23980

[peilo]

You have my support, Im awaiting 5.1 support in dvd2svcd, that would be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Originally posted by DSPguru
have anyone tried playbacking a svcd+ac3 film ?
today i've added support for ac3 encoding for BeSweet, so i think it would be very interesting if you could include a 5.1ac3@224kbps track in your svcd instead of 2.0mp2@224kbps.


btw, another reference :
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23980

[orbit-r]

@DSPguru
i`ve tried it(svcd+ac3) but doesn`t work ...
i think only some philips players will the play the mpeg-multichannelsound but the svcd specifications don`t allow ac3 sound,

gruss
orbit-r

ps:very nice you added ac3 encoding to besweet(very cool prog.)
for dvd creation for example


:)

[orbit-r]

hi
i did another test with the first seconds of shrek
i muxet with bbmpeg than tried to author and burn with vcd-easy but this don´t work... so i tried to burn with nero this worked well,but
there was only picture and no sound on the pc and in the standalone nothing happended...

so when you wanna do some tests on your own try to burn it with nero..

gruss
orbit-r

[DSPguru]

10q for important inputs. keep them coming.. :)

[pacohaas]

Originally posted by orbit-r
so when you wanna do some tests on your own try to burn it with nero...are you saying I have to purchase/use this aweful program? Do I also need to purchase the SVCD plugin? I very much hate this program, so this better be the ONLY way to do this. :scared:

[orbit-r]

hi
@pacohaas
don`t know if i got you right..
i mean vcdeasy didn`t wight a image out of the .mpeg(with ac3 sound) so i tried Nero (uchecked creat standard svcd) to burn it ...

i don`t like nero too( for burning scvd`s),but this is a way how you can test if it plays in your player...

you don`t have to get the svcd-plugin,
gruss
orbit-r

[pacohaas]

i just don't trust NERO, I did get it to burn the mpg file, but the audio didn't play on my player (APEX 5131). But it doesn't even play on WinDVD, while the same mpg file plays the audio fine on WinDVD. This leads me to believe that NERO sees this AC3 stream and says, "What the F is this, i'll just ignore it". Maybe a future version of VCDXBuild or VCDImager(or even NERO) will support AC3 streams, but I'm pretty sure none currently do.

[chainsaw135]

"But it doesn't even play on WinDVD, while the same mpg file plays the audio fine on WinDVD. This leads me to believe that NERO sees this AC3 stream and says, "What the F is this, i'll just ignore it".


@pacohaas man thats what i'm starting to think also i'm getting the same results as yourself and others. I have the (apex 5131) i believe that we will figure this out when and how now thats the million dollar question hehe.


Hey (orbit-r) is that avatar your using from one of the evil dead movies? it looks like it but i could be wrong...I have all the evil dead movies they are sweet for sure.

[orbit-r]

hi again,
i don`t trust nero too(since the svcd `wrong-packet-size- bug),
but i believe the thing is ,when you play a single ac3.mpeg file in windvd
it plays the ac3 cause it has nothing to do with svcd .but when playing a authored svcd[with its folder tree and stuff) windvd behaves(? right word?) like a standalone and don`t decode the .ac3 stream cause svcd`s standard don`t allow ac3.so if you put a svcd into your player it don`t know how to handle the audio cause its a svcd and not a dvd-structure.
but i hope im wrong and we can get it to work this would be very very nice....
:D


@chainsaw135
you are absolutley right this is out of the evildead triologie,some of my favourite movies ever:cool:
"keep your friends close....." am i right this is out of an older biohazard-recording? :p

gruss
orbit-r

[chainsaw135]

@orbit-r no i get the saying from the life i lead hehe, i'm and older (g) and that statement could not be more true:).

[CL]

Here's what I tried:

-Mux a video mpeg2 file with an ac3 track using bbmpeg. This seems to work only with the latest version of bbmpeg (older ones give errors while muxing). This produces an A/V mpeg file that is playable with powerdvd4.
-Tried to burn it with Nero. Choose svcd template and drag the file into it. Nero complains about non compliance blabla. Burned the disc without standard compliance. When playing this disc with powerdvd, I only have video but no sound. The mpeg file on the disc is a few 100kbytes different from the original so I presumed Nero fucks up here. (I know from alot of other experiences that Nero is a nice burning proggie but should not be used for authoring svcd's, gives all kinds of problems so I wasn't really surprised it didn't work.)
-Authored the A/V mpeg file with TSCV. The latest version refuses to do this. Tried again with some older version that I had, and this one produces errors, but also a good .bin & .cue file :D. Burned this with CDRwin. This gives a disc that played correctly with powerdvd4.

Then the ultimate test --> insert disc in stand-alone DVD which is a Yukai V300 with firmware 1.X -the oldest firmware- = Mustek V300

I only have video but no sound:( So I suppose this machine doesn't play that kind of disc.

CL

[fistula]

What I do is this...
I use DVD2SVCD and then when its done i take the mpv file, patch the header, import it into an authoring program along with the ac3 file burn to dvd-r and BAM my apex 5131 plays this SVCD video with dolby 5.1 audio, PLUS 4-5 hours of video per disc is no problem at all to fit.

[Clixo]

Originally posted by fistula
What I do is this...
I use DVD2SVCD and then when its done i take the mpv file, patch the header, import it into an authoring program along with the ac3 file burn to dvd-r and BAM my apex 5131 plays this SVCD video with dolby 5.1 audio, PLUS 4-5 hours of video per disc is no problem at all to fit.

@ fistula can you give more details about your method ?
how do you patch the header ?
witch authoring soft do you use ?

I would like to try also !!

Thanks

[orbit-r]

hi
im very intersedted too,do you author as svcd or as dvd??
cause when authoring as dvd this is nothing speciall...

please reply
thanxs
orbit-r:confused:

[fistula]

Well, I guess it doesnt matter much cause orbit-r has seen this done before...and in fact i have beem doing this for several months. i author it as a DVD and burn to dvd-r. I keep the ntsc 480x480 res pulldown mpv video and use an ac3 5.1 soundtrack. So i guess this is no big deal to you guys. essentially what i have is 2 or 3 svcd movies on one dvd-r that play straight through, no changing discs at all and with 5.1...


clixomano--- if you want details on exactly how i do this ill let you know, but i have a feeling i didnt make it clear enough that i was burning these to dvd-r

[fistula]

dolby 5.1 with SVCD is a lost cause, simply because Philips designed the SVCD spec and their mpeg multichannel audio competes with dolbys 5.1. It is possible to do mpeg 5.1 audio through conversion but it isnt worth the headaches and in the end your standalone player wont play that either. Thats part of the reason why i have started burning svcd to dvd-r.... seamless movie with no breaks, DD5.1 and $1.25 for dvd-r media actually makes it almost/cheaper to burn 2 or 3 movies to the same dvd-r than burning them to a bunch of cdrs. and the best part is dvd2svcd makes all the files you need to do this with no muxing or anything needed. All hail dvd2svcd

[Clixo]

i understand taht you burn in a dvdr but what isimportant to me is if at the end you have and authored svcd or a " mini dvd " !
you can mux real ac3 files with i-author ?
please be more specific i think everybody here in the forum will like to see your methos because as you described beroure it is very interesting to me at least.
if possible make kind of summery of the steps that you make to achieve the final result. thanks.

[fistula]

Summary--
1) Use DVD2SVCD to create regular SVCDs at whatever quality you want. Make sure you keep audio at 48khz, DO NOT change it to 44.1 or you will end up redoing this is you have a dvd without an ac-3 track (and yes they do exist) also set it up to not delete any files

2) when DVD2SVCD is done, take the pulldown encoded mpv file (which is the entire movie not cut into pieces) and the *.ac3 file and move them into a separate folder. you do not need the mpegs or disc images or any other files so you can delete them if you want.

3)Use DVDPatcher to patch the header ONLY of the mpv file to 352x480 (if not ntsc, use your proper resolution).

4)Rename your m2v and ac3 file so they are the same (ex- dvd.mpv and dvd.ac3)

5) Import your files into a DVD authoring program (like spruce)

6) author your disc, put as many clips on as you like.

7) save and exit, unpatch your mpv files

8) restart authoring program and compile and burn


This will be DVD format--- video_ts and audio_ts...this is not mini dvd sicne it is on dvdr. hope i explained well.

[pacohaas]

Originally posted by fistula
1) Use DVD2SVCD to create regular SVCDs at whatever quality you want. Make sure you keep audio at 48khz, DO NOT change it to 44.1 or you will end up redoing this is you have a dvd without an ac-3 track (and yes they do exist) also set it up to not delete any files If you have "Don't make images" selected, you can also choose not to convert the audio. This should save some time if this method works for you.

[Clixo]

thanks fistula :)

[pausenclown]

here is what im gonna do for this

use dvd2svcd to make a large video-file. you can select the advance setting to do it in dvd-resolution. you will find it in "misc" - dvd2svcd level = advanced! it will activate in "frameserver" resize to - dvd (full size)
there is no need to patch it any more with dvd-patcher or something like that.
do not convert the audio. the proggi will automatically extract the ac3-file in your selected folder.

if its all done muxe your large video-file and ac3-file together with bbmpeg. the settings allow you to make the right size for the splitted files (697mb). after that you have to simple-demultiplex the files with tmpegenc (mpeg tools). you will have a .m2v and a .ac3 file.

now take spruceup and author it like a dvd.

i suggest to write it to a disk image and burn it afterwards with nero or another image-burner.

all my movies have the full dolbydigital-sound and plays well on my dvd-player cyberhome adl 528! i hope it works for you too!

forgive me for the bad english!

p.


ps: not all of the user in this forum got a dvd-burner - think about that!

[frank]

Look in the future!
Now Dolby Surround II receivers come into the market. DS II stores 5 full audio channels in the normal stereo tracks and is full compatible. The companies knock at Dolbys dor for licences!
Don't wast your time with old technologies.

With BeeSweet 1.4b8 you can transcode an AC-3 track into DS II and encode to mp2 in ONE step!
This is the best solution for SVCD.

BTW
I muxed all my MPEG-2 mc audio with bbMPEG to SVCD compatible mpeg streams. Authoring with TSCV 0.84. No need for i-Author! Worked on all players. But player must be able to output audio in RAW mode! Via digital link the receiver can decode 5.1 MPEG-2 audio. (Philips, Pioneer)

[pausenclown]

i don't think ds2 is the future. the future is still the digital sound with dolbydigital or dts.

and btw - there are many ways that leads to rome. at the end is the movie on a normal disk with superb sound. thats what we all want.

in the near future we all have a dvd-r/dvd+r to take advantage of the data storage.

[dvd2svcd]

Originally posted by pausenclown
in the near future we all have a dvd-r/dvd+r to take advantage of the data storage. Yup, and I'll be out of business :p

[frank]

@pausenclown
This is a thread about SVCD! We talk about authoring of THIS media not DVD-R and others.
What do you know about bandwidth, frequencies, costs?? Old Dolby Surround Pro Logic is mostly used on television now. DS2 needs only 2 stereo channels! Hey, real 5.1 surround in a car is possible from radio stations or from cheap CDs!! And the old stereo tracks sound much better in DS2. That's why DS2 receivers NOW come into the market.

On SVCD you'll get with DS2 real 5.1 surround sound on 192-224 kbps!!
In MPEG-2 mc audio you need 320-384 kbps - that's much more.
The DS2 receivers are coming, you only have to encode your SVCDs in DS2 to get the fun of 5.1 multichannel sound. Same track length.

Yes, in the future we will get DVD burners. But DVD-R? DVD+R? DVD-RW?DVD+RW? If you are a rich boy then buy now, next year you can do it to garbage because there is no worldwide standard. :D

[frank]

@DVD2SVCD
Oh, no. :) I think you include the ds2 downmix in your program as BeeSweet/headAC3he did.

[pausenclown]

@frank
the new amplifier and reciever will support the ds2 - thats right. but is it not the future - its a new feature.
will future dvd don't carry dd or dts any more?

we are talking about svcd! that are the once who will play in most of the dvd-player on the market. and that is why people like dvd2svcd provide a opportunity for all of us. not a few people like you.

correct me if i'm wrong.
we all want the same - a good copy of a dvd with super sound.

@dvd2svcd
keep up the good work. with a dvd-r/dvd+r your prog is not useless!
why shouldn't we burn two good movies with super sound on one dvd?


greetings to all dd and dts fans

p;)

[fistula]

DVD2SVCD is what MADE my DVD-R purchase worth it... thats why i donated money like you all should :D

[frank]

DD is the audio standard on DVD and often used on digital TV. DD and DTS are real multichannel systems, and sounds best. Yes, that is the future. MPEG audio will be the looser.

My focus was good sound on SVCD. DS2 is here the best multichannel solution, because it needs NOT MORE bitrate, has fully compatible stereo tracks, upcoming receivers, and MPEG-2 mc audio is not much supported.
SVCD is fully standardized. DD, AC-3 are not allowed!

If you burn your movies on DVD media at resolution of SVCD (480x480, or 480x576, = 2/3 DV) then you produced off-standard DVD-R/DVD+R!!
When your player plays that streams then you had luck!
For PAL
- DVD has 720x576, 704x576, and 1/2 DV = 352x576.
- DVD has UDF/ISO file format

Standard compliant SVCDs are burned as mode 2/XA CD! Has nothing to do with DVD-R backups.
I know the Cyberhome 528 plays many off-standard media like miniDVD.
But the most players only know standard media!

[pausenclown]

@ frank

ok, ok! you are right! if you want to do it like this - its your choice.
in my way it is the dd on a simple cd. i only own a ampifier with dd and dts and i'm not able to buy me a new one every year for a new option in sound.
let us end the discussion at this time and i hope that dvd2svcd will provide you.
lets focus on the headline again. we are talking about "dolbydigital audio in svcd"

so long

p ;)

[CL]

I have to agree with Frank. (I just bought a receiver with DS2 / AAC ) Seems great to me with DS2 and still in SVCD specs.

CL

[beergod]

Back to the audio stream ID in SVCD transport stream.
Does anyone know where can one find information for the mpeg2 transport stream structure for SVCD ?

Maybe someone is that purely taking the audio and video elementary streams and mux them together with correct time stamps ?

I muxed ac3 and DVD2SVCD created video stream. It plays on my player, but no sound, and it shows 44.2k (it should be 48k).

I am really interested in putting ac3 onto svcd ...

I think it will only work for those standalone players with bitstream audio digital output.

:p

[pausenclown]

read carefully!

the muxed files in dvd2svcd will not work in your standalone dvd-player.
you have to simple de-multiplex the files. then you can author them with spruceup.
what you get is a minidvd, which means there is a simple cd (700mb) with all folders like a dvd (-and dolbydigital-sound).
i think that will work on your standalone.

p

[gizmau]

when muxing, ac3 gets other stream id as mp2-audio gets. this can be read at the mpeg-books at www.mpeg.org (hope this source was right).
dvd players _only_ look for mp2-audio streams when playing svcd, nothing else.
patching ac3-stream-id to the mp2-audio-id is no great thing technically, but the player simply cant decode it.

so best possible thing for svcd is DS2 - ac3 is impossible!

when will people understand this... ;-)

[beergod]

gizmau,

Having the ac3 stream disguised as mp2 stream is exactly what I wanted. If the player can output the raw digital stream, then an external decoder can decode it. That would also cause confusion to the internal decoder to output noise because it is the wrong format.

However, this will only work IF
1. The muxer multuplexes the disguised ac3 stream as mp2 stream w/o checking its content.

we can mux the ac3 stream and the m2v stream into mpg stream. Then de-mux it again, and check if the ac3 stream is still correct by playing it.

[gizmau]

@beergod

it not only depends on, which streams are _present_ - you would have to patch the bios/firmware of the player to let him recognise ac3!
the player allways connects svcd and mp2 - not ac3.

an 'ordinary' player regarding svcd/ac3, which i think that 99,999999999% on the market are, will *never* play ac3 on svcd, at least not 'out of the box'.

[beergod]

@gizmau,

Surely if the player can spit the raw stream out, then an external decoder can handle it. I suspect you will never see the player decoding ac3 when playing svcd.

[mrbass]

This os DS2 correct?
http://www.dolby.com/tech/l.wh.0007.PLIIops.html

in the table it says
"[Pro Logic II]
* "3/2" surround
* "2/2" with phantom center
* "3/0" 3 stereo
Pro Logic emulation mode:

* "3/1" with filtered surround

The Pro Logic emulation mode included in the technology package is as robust as the original Pro Logic decoding mode without having to provide separate decoding circuitry in the product. "

This emulation mode means only two speakers are required? So let me get this straight. We encoded when the new dvd2svcd is out with the lastest besweet or try that hack dvd2svcd posted. Then we need a receiver that has "Dolby ProLogic II" or DS2 or Dolby Surround 2 or whichever you prefer to call it.

[gizmau]

no, this means, that dp2 can output 'ordinary' dolby surround prologic.
3/1 is similar to left, center, right and back. 'filtered' because of the fact, that at ds the back speaker(s) are limited to 7khz and left-back and right-back are only ONE channel at mono.

therefore dp2 is backward compatible to ds, as ds is to stereo, as stereo is to mono.

when the receiver cant decode full 3/2 then 3/1 is put out.

[Juhan]

@beergod

I think you are right about patching ID's.

I have another idea but I can't test it right now because I sent my Philips DVD player (which plays MPEG2 5.1) to service. DVD players output MPEG2 5.1 to digital output. What if I encode few seconds of movie with MPEG2 5.1 multichannel sound and mux the rest of movie with AC3. Then I copy both parts into one file using simple DOS copy command "copy /b mpeg2.mpg+ac3.mpg full.mpg" and author it as SVCD.

Here is what player should do:
1. starts SVCD, recognises MPEG2 5.1
2. player opens SPDIF output for MPEG2 5.1
3. suddenly MPEG2 sound changes to AC3

Maybe it sends AC3 to SPDIF. AC3 is usually 384 kbit/s. MPEG2 5.1 should be also coded at 384 kbit/s. If player checks ID for every second it will not work. But if player assumes that entire movie is MPEG2 5.1 then it can work.

Can anybody try it?

For example taking a short clip. Encoding once with MPEG2 5.1 and the second time with AC3. Then copying them together. I will try it as soon as I get my player back.

[Juhan]

BTW! You can use Nero for creating this kind of SVCD. Turn off standard compliance.

[mrbass]

ok downloaded dvd2svcd 1.1.0 build 1 pre 22 and BeSweet 1.4b14
so I click 'Azid Advanced Settings' then 'stereo downmix type' and choose 'Surround 2'. This will give me Dolby Pro Logic Surround 2 correct? Only can really take advantage of it if I have 5 speakers correct?

a)
"D:\eiga\testd2s\audio\Encoded_audio_1.log" ) -azid( -L -3db -c normal -s surround2 -g max ) -ota( -d -39 ) -2lame( -e -b 192 -m s )

b)
"D:\eiga\TESTBB~1\audio\Encoded_audio_1.log" ) -azid( -L -3db -c normal -s surround -g max ) -ota( -d -39 ) -2lame( -e -b 192 -m s )

So now b) is the default -s surround...should it be downmixing by default?

here's log from 1.0.9 build 3 just stereo selected as output mode.
"D:\eiga\THEREP~1.KIL\audio\Encoded_audio_1.log" ) -azid( -L -3db -c normal -g max ) -2lame( -e -b 192 -m s )