What sound cards have a 32-bit DAC?

[Bulletproof]

Anybody know? I can't find one.

[ChristianHJW]

24 Bits = 144 dB Dynamics
32 Bits = 192 dB Dynamics ?????

[DSPguru]

i believe he was talking about 32bit floating-point, this should give us dynamic range of more than 1500db (!).

unless you're planning to use this soundcard as radio exciter, i don't see why would you like to purchase this kind of monster :).

[MaTTeR]

At the consumer level or even audiophile level I would think a 24bit DAC is more than enough. Though the Audigy touts a 24bit DAC, I've read several reviews disclaiming. However, the Terratec DMX Xfire card has a 24bit DAC and I'm pretty sure the M-Audio 24/96 card would be sufficient. Perhaps even the Yamaha 7000 is 24bit as well.

I'm sure a 32bit DAC card exists on the professional studio level but even then what are you really gaining over 24bit?

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by MaTTeR
I'm sure a 32bit DAC card exists on the professional studio level but even then what are you really gaining over 24bit? .... there is no such thing as a 'real' 24 Bit audio DAC .... its still something to dream off .. you'd need liquid oxygen cooling of your OP amps to get a dynamic range > 130 dB in practice, not to tell a battery power supply ...

[Bulletproof]

Thanks for your replies, The Audiophile 2496 and the Digi96/8 PST look like really nice cards. But I also wanted to know if the cards needed to be specifically compatible with DirectX. I am a gameplayer also and I don't want to lose my sound.

[MaTTeR]

Bulletproof,

The Midiman Delta-66 seems to be one of the best high end cards to buy right now. I've heard no problems mentioned about it in regards to DirectX.

[omol]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
.... there is no such thing as a 'real' 24 Bit audio DAC .... its still something to dream off .. you'd need liquid oxygen cooling of your OP amps to get a dynamic range > 130 dB in practice, not to tell a battery power supply ...

I beg to differ, but we have been using 24 bit audio DAC for years in studio. Some well known as well as top notched (IMHO) 24 Bit gear (audio output) manufacturers, to name a few, Apogee (http://www.apogeedigital.com/) (very very good), db Technologies (http://www.dmtpro.com/eng/bymanu_action.jsp?man_id=12) (no official website, this is only a distributor, and db Technologies is the BEST!!!), TC Electronic (http://www.tcelectronic.com/) (good), Focusrite (http://www.focusrite.com/) (some swear by them, but I'll only say ok)...etc. If you run a stuio and can afford, go ahead with Apogee, or even better, db Technologies.

Also, the calculation of bit resolution to db level is no what we use. In pro audio field, we use something like a bit = 6 db formula. Mind you this is also incorrect, but close to real thing. For exact forumla, dig up the Mix or StudioReview archive (if they are online).

Finally, this so called bit resolution is totally nonesense, believe me. Trust your ears, not spec. Different AD/DA even have identical spec and use same alogorithm for sampling and dithering, DOES NOT sound the same. In some situation, 16 bit sound better than 18/20 bit. One example is Sony PCM 7030 (a 16 bit only DAT, but not manufactured anymore) sounds so much better than early Apogee 18/20 bit AD/DA coverter.

regards,
omol

[celtic_druid]

http://www.staudio.com/products/dsp24adat/index.html

[omol]

Originally posted by celtic_druid
http://www.staudio.com/products/dsp24adat/index.html

No thanx. Just give me a Studer A827 and Dolby SR and I'll be happy....;)

regards,
omol

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by omol
I beg to differ, but we have been using 24 bit audio DAC for years in studio. Some well known as well as top notched (IMHO) 24 Bit gear (audio output) manufacturers .... you always believe the writing on the box ;) ?? Believe me, from a technical point there is no such thing as a 'real' 24 Bit DAC existing. 1 Bit is always 6 dB as 6 dB is double output voltage and this equals 1 bit. So a 'real' 24 Bit DAC must have an SNR of 144 dB, as pointed out above .... no way Jose, not with 'normal' OP amps etc. .... and not necessary either !!! But i'm sorry, i dont have the time to dig into this any further ....

Of course i fully agree that there are huge sound differences between different DA's and, even more, AD's , and this is ín no way related to the bits precision they have !!

For real Hi-End audio ( and you need a decent chain for this like at http://www.foersteraudiotechnik.de/ ... i've been involved with development here years ago ) one of the most important things to look at is still powersupply ( a few Farad even for the preamps in the AD's are nice, all capacitors bridged with hi-voltage PP film capacitors, etc. or better even battery powered ) and analog output/input stages, a decent digital filter working with at least 24 bits precision and very high rate, as well as mechanical vibrations suppression with teflon shields, etc. . I know i am migrating into the 'VooDoo' area, but we more than once managed to convince even hardcore theoretics by making ABX tests with something they said is inaudible ... and being confirmed from us with >95% reliability ... but those days are gone :( ... now i'm married and my wonderful speakers have a place in some corner of the living room :cry: ...

[omol]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
.... you always believe the writing on the box ;) ?? Believe me, from a technical point there is no such thing as a 'real' 24 Bit DAC existing. 1 Bit is always 6 dB as 6 dB is double output voltage and this equals 1 bit. So a 'real' 24 Bit DAC must have an SNR of 144 dB, as pointed out above .... no way Jose, not with 'normal' OP amps etc. .... and not necessary either !!! But i'm sorry, i dont have the time to dig into this any further .....

I DO believe the box spec, but only of those brands I mentioned. If they are not honnest, they will be in deep trouble as Recording Industry is so small, so to speak. AND bad words travels fast. I'm not talking about ADAT (crap) or other domestic gear. I'm talking about the real beef. Check the price of those brands I mentioned.

To be picky, as I already stated, the 1 bit = 6 db is just a rough calculation, NOT the exact formula. For those who are willing to spend sometime to find the formula, do a google search. AND YES, there is NO current equipments that could reproduce 144 db headroom execept those in Area 51. But I have last heard they are crashed by Jeff Goldblam and Will Smith in the dessert....;) Let me mind all, in digital audio, NOT all bits are allocated for audio signal.

Of course i fully agree that there are huge sound differences between different DA's and, even more, AD's , and this is ín no way related to the bits precision they have !!

Neither do I. The point I was trying to state is "Trust your own ear", NOT the spec for domestic gear. Also, why PCM 7030 sounds so good is still a myth to me. Asked Sony R&D engineers (back then when they paid a visit to a newly installed digital mastering studio local here which I got acquinted) and they don't have an answer either. Too bad they discontinue it.

For real Hi-End audio ( and you need a decent chain for this like at http://www.foersteraudiotechnik.de/ ... i've been involved with development here years ago ) one of the most important things to look at is still powersupply ( a few Farad even for the preamps in the AD's are nice, all capacitors bridged with hi-voltage PP film capacitors, etc. or better even battery powered ) and analog output/input stages, a decent digital filter working with at least 24 bits precision and very high rate, as well as mechanical vibrations suppression with teflon shields, etc. . I know i am migrating into the 'VooDoo' area, but we more than once managed to convince even hardcore theoretics by making ABX tests with something they said is inaudible ... and being confirmed from us with >95% reliability ... but those days are gone :( ... now i'm married and my wonderful speakers have a place in some corner of the living room :cry: ...

Ah, I could see our difference now. I'm not a hi-fi hi-end audio freak! Having been working in the dark and cold dungeons (studio...;) for ages, I don't even have any decent equipments at home. The only audio equipment I have at home if they could be rated as equipment is just a crappy SoundBlaster Live! and a pair of Sony el cheapo headphone. You may already noticed in my previous message, I don't like digital a bit, well, only for mastering. I don't use those funky loudspeakers as stated in the website you list. I mostly work with Genelec 1030A or Meyer HD-1. I seldom use the large monitor cos' most of them are badly calibrated. For close field monitor, you can at least place them where you want, or on the meter bridge if your console is sturdy enough. My favourite is still a analog 24 track recorder:- Studer A827....;) With Dolby SR and Ampex 499 2", they taste so good.....:O~~~~~~~~~

Arghh....getting real out of topic, better stop now....:)

regards,
omol

[DSPguru]

Originally posted by omol
Arghh....getting real out of topic, better stop now....:) we shouldn't stop here.. :D.

afaik, 24bit should get up to 144db, BUT, that's only true when you have a "flash" conversion, meaning, each bit has its own op-amp that supply its weighted voltage. that's extremly hard to acheive, the lsp op-amps need to be able to deliever signals at precisions of microVolts.
and i believe that's what Chris was talking about.. :).

most (all?) 24bit dacs are sigma-delta interpoolators, that reproduce a 24bit/Xkhz by reproducing Nbit/Ykhz, when 1<=N<24, and Y>=X*24/N.

so, in some mean, you're both right :).

[Psyche]

It's always funny to hear something like this discussion. 32 bit float ADC/DAC ? :scared:
What Christian and DSPGuru are talking about is right. There is NO such thing as a REAL 24 bit ADC. If you look a little inside a chip which implements this function you see funny things as Oversampling Conversion and such.
I don't remember the numbers right now but I seem to recall you can get at most 12 bits in a flash ADC because the switching noise of MOS transistors peaks up to a level where quantization noise should be below this level which obviously is not possible. Thus the oversampling converters where you trade bandwidth for resolution.
Anyway, I wanted to say that 32 bit ADC are not possible nowadays and even 24 bits I'm quite reluctant to believe they give such a boost to sound quality (I have never tested a 24 bit sound card), given that a good 24 bit ADC is so expensive that you cannot put one of these beasts in a commercial sound card.

See ya!

[Bulletproof]

Ok I got one more question before I buy the Delta-66. It seems to have 4 outputs, does that mean I am required to use all 4 outputs to get proper sound? or can I just use two speakers?

[MaTTeR]

@Bulletproof

What do you mean by "proper sound"? I don't think a card is going to force you to listen to multi-channels unless you want;)

I'm quite sure you can use the card for stereo playback:)

[Bulletproof]

Ok I want to thank everybody for helping me out even though I am very inexperienced in audio, you all have helped me alot :cool:

[Boost]

It's not really 24-bit we want. I'd rather have a soundcard that used the extra bandwidth for 256kbit instead of 24-bit.

You have to play really loud (almost hurting your ears) to be able to hear the 100dB SNR. The only time you really need 24-bit is PA where you cram up the volume to max.

But by running in 256ksamples/second we get about 12 samples per wave in 20kHz (256k/20k, try 44.1k/20k and try to draw a sine wave with the result). That's enough to cleanly reproduce sound in the whole range that the human ear + brain can hear. With a bit of filtering we would get analogue sound.

[ChristianHJW]

256 k samples / sec ??? Wow, this is even higher than what we had postulated 15 years ago :D ... but i honestly dont think the DVD-Audio spec with 192 Khz sampling rate must be topped .... should be better than human ear already, if properly implemented ..

[omol]

Originally posted by Boost
You have to play really loud (almost hurting your ears) to be able to hear the 100dB SNR. The only time you really need 24-bit is PA where you cram up the volume to max.

Been there, done that. Plug straight into and standing right in front of 2 full stack of Marshall 100W, 1 is plain JCM800 and 1 is 25th Anniversary....;) Probably well over 100 db.

ps. OT, but any musician here on this board?

regards,
omol

[DSPguru]

Originally posted by omol
ps. OT, but any musician here on this board?i used to play on a black metal band.

[omol]

Originally posted by DSPguru
i used to play on a black metal band.

Standard Heavy Metal here...;) Mostly Ozzy (Randy Rhoad's era), Whitesnake (John Sykes' era) and Van Halen (DLR's era) <---- toughest!

regards,
omol

[DSPguru]

Ozzy rocks ! but i'm more into dissection, abigor, the gathering, tristania, etc'...

Cheers,
Dg.