Ogg DS v0.9.8.8 out [Archive]

celtic_druid

21st March 2002, 13:51

Version .0.9.8.8

Vorbis decoder supports now playback of multichannel files (the speaker mapping for 6-channel streams is still hardcoded to the AC3 order in this version.)
The default output media type of the Vorbis decoder is now 32bit IEEE float instead of 16bit PCM to make full use of sound cards having more than 16bit D/A converter
Fixed bug in the Ogg multiplexer which caused sometimes a crash at the end of the multiplexing.
Converted all WideString calls back to ANSI because some wide string functions are not properly implemented in Win98. I hope that solve some of the problems of the Win98 users

kaveh420

21st March 2002, 14:19

ok so now you can play back 6ch ogg files... and this is done with 6ch sound cards only along with a reciever that has 6ch analog inputs. however the updated guide says:

the Vorbis core still lacks proper channel coupling and other advanced filtering techniques that would be necessary to create a high quality multichannel track at a significantly lower bitrate than the AC3

can someone tell me what this means exactly (i'm not really a newbie but don't know much about ogg at all) does this mean that i won't get good sounding file or that the file won't be that much smaller than the ac3, or both?? anyone tried this 6ch on a rip yet?

thanks in advance

ChristianHJW

21st March 2002, 14:37

Originally posted by kaveh420 does this mean that i won't get good sounding file .... no ...
or that the file won't be that much smaller than the ac3 ... correct. Our 1st results with q = 2.5 to 3.5 resulted in about 300 kbps, so not much smaller than the original AC3 ( 384 kbps )
anyone tried this 6ch on a rip yet?.... i am at work and my new Win2000 OS is still not correctly setup with all apps i need for work so i'm still on my NT4 OS here ( dual-boot ) ... earliest chance for me to test will be tonight .... but i'm convinced MaTTer will give us first results pretty soon :D !!

Acaila

21st March 2002, 14:45

It means that the vorbis encoder doesn't have channel coupling yet, so if you want an audio quality equal to the 6-ch ac3 you'll also end up with about an equal filesize.

EDIT: It seems Christian beat me :)

MaTTeR

21st March 2002, 17:46

We really have to push the Xiph developers to implement the channel coupling for 6ch mode.

I've posted my multi-channel results over in the PowerDivx threads for Tobias;)

DSPguru

21st March 2002, 19:55

although OggMachine/BeSweet supports 5.1ogg - i think 5.1ogg isn't a good idea. atm (with RC3).

if you have a stereo soundcard - it's meanless.
if you plan to listen to the soundtrack on a receiver using SPDIF - no can do.
the only use of 5.1ogg, atm, is when having analog connection to audio amplifiers/speakers.

i find AC3 compression techniques very good, and i doubt that decoding the 5.1AC3 stream and re-encoding to 5.1Ogg that doesn't have coupling strategy or LFE refernce worth the 15% cut in bitrate.

what we could do is -
o implement 5.1ogg to 2ch downmix (very easy - see chapter 7.8.2 on the ac3 spec. i'm sure Tobias will introduce downmix capabilites soon).
o encourage hardware manufactors to support 5.1Ogg decoding.
o encourage vorbis developers to work on channels coupling, channels mappings, and LFE referncing.

up until the above happens, i would suggest to keep muxing the original ac3 streams.

MaTTeR

21st March 2002, 20:05

@DSPguru
I have to agree with you somewhat. I transcoding a 384kbps AC3 to a 192kbps 5.1 Ogg this morning and really didn't notice much quality loss if any. My main issue ATM is we must have channel coupling using multi-channels.

Secondly, I really hate using analog outs. So until hardware vendors support 5.1 Vorbis ecoding we are stuck:scared:

What would be the advantage to dowmixing 5.1 to 2ch though? Aren't we already this in some fashion? I'm downmixing 5.1 AC3 files to a 2ch Ogg Vorbis with pseudo DPL effects.

DSPguru

21st March 2002, 20:12

Originally posted by MaTTeR
@DSPguru
I have to agree with you somewhat. I transcoding a 384kbps AC3 to a 192kbps 5.1 Ogg this morning and really didn't notice much quality loss if any.if any ;) ?

What would be the advantage to dowmixing 5.1 to 2ch though? Aren't we already this in some fashion? I'm downmixing 5.1 AC3 files to a 2ch Ogg Vorbis with pseudo DPL effects. i guess you're right. but since the downmixing process is simple to implement, i think it should be a part of Tobias' OggDS, just like it's a built-in feature in AC3 DSFs.

ChristianHJW

21st March 2002, 21:51

Originally posted by DSPguru i guess you're right. but since the downmixing process is simple to implement, i think it should be a part of Tobias' OggDS, just like it's a built-in feature in AC3 DSFs ... Hi DG, what a pleasure to welcome you here !
Yes, in fact downmixing from 5.1 ( or even 7.1 lateron ) to 2 ch Stereo or 2 ch DPL Stereo is absolutely necessary and must be implemented in Tobias' multichannel DSF one day .... but for now lets be happy Tobias was nice with us and gave us a straight 5.1 decoder. DA told us Tobias is still playing with the idea of using DirectShow for the downmix part ... but he ( and me ) dont like it too much, so he gave Tobias some simple downmix code, lets hope he implements it once he finds the time.

To answer your other point, well, you're right absolutely correct that right now transcoding a 5.1 AC3 to a 5.1 Vorbis doesnt make much sense as bitrates will still end up around 250 - 300 kbps.
But once we have channel coupling feature and maybe even can select different encoding qualities for rear/sub/center resulting in smaller bitrates, we may end up with 160 - 200 kbps for a 5.1 Vorbis with quite nice sound .... isnt this a perspective ??

DSPguru

21st March 2002, 22:06

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
But once we have channel coupling feature and maybe even can select different encoding qualities for rear/sub/center resulting in smaller bitrates, we may end up with 160 - 200 kbps for a 5.1 Vorbis with quite nice sound .... isnt this a perspective ?? The best way to predict the future is to invent it :D

MaTTeR

22nd March 2002, 01:04

Great news everyone!! After tinkering with players, speakers and receiver settings today I've successfully play 5.1 Ogg Vorbis and the speaker mappings are correct:D

I'll post more details later but right now I need to watch the NCAA tournament, a much needed break from the PC today:)
EDIT_________________________________
Setup:
Sound Card- Zoltrix Nightingale Pro 6 (Multi-Channel output)
Amp- Sony 675 DD/DTS
Player- Tried many but only successful with PowerDivx 4 alpha12(Not Public)
Encoder- HeadAC3he 0.23a2 & BeSweet 1.3b3
OggDS- 0.9.8.8

As I mentioned above PowerDivx was the only player I was able to play the 5.1 Ogg file with proper mapping. Other players would play the file with no problem but the speaker mapping was incorrect. Here are the PowerDivx settings I found to work with proper channel mapping-

Audio Options->Direct Show-->Audio Device-Default Direct Show Device
Audio Options->Direct Show-->AC3 Output Mode-6 Speaker Mode (5.1)
Audio Options->Direct Show-->Enable LFE Support

The test files I played were both ogg(w/out video) and ogm(w/video). The above PD settings might vary depending on your sound card but it should be a good start. The other problem is that PD4 isn't available to public but some of you should have better luck than I did with other players. I'll post more information as I continue to test. Hope this helps a little.

celtic_druid

24th March 2002, 10:24

Having trouble playing anything that isn't 6channel on my hercules game theatre XP.. Works fine on my SoundBlaster live though.

Also PC with GT XP is running win2k, Soundblaster is running XP.. Anyone else out there have a game theatre XP??

Weird thing is if in headAC3e I select 2 input channels and 6 output channels it works and gives a file around the size of a 2 channel OGG file.

Did a test sample

6channel OGG - 741kb - works fine.
2channel OGG - 265kb - sounds like crap.
2 in 6 out OGG = 295kb - works fine.
4 in 6 out OGG - 579k - works fine.
4channel OGG - 572k - sounds like crap.

Also none work in 5.1 or 6.1 speaker mode.

MaTTeR

24th March 2002, 16:53

@celtic_druid

Thanks for the feedback. Remeber Tobias has just hard coded the 5.1 mappings for this first version. As I understand we should only expect proper playback of 6ch Vorbis in this version of the DSF. Tobias wanted to start the testing out as simple as possible just to make sure were on the right track.

Which player did you use? Can you explain the following statements as I was a little confused trying to figure out what you meant-

Also none work in 5.1 or 6.1 speaker mode.

6channel OGG - 741kb - works fine.

So your saying you didn't hear a clear 6ch separation?

celtic_druid

24th March 2002, 17:26

I used media player 6.4.

If I set up my sound card to output 5.1 or 6.1 I get majorly distorted playback.. Works fine in 4, 4.1, 2, etc.

6channel OGG sounded fine, just like the original AC3 (as far as I could tell).

As I said though 2 channel OGG files playback fine under win XP on a soundblaster live though.

MaTTeR

24th March 2002, 17:51

I guess I'm getting confused when you say 5.1 set on your sound card results in distortion. But also your saying 6ch Vorbis sounds fine and comparable to the AC3.

5.1 is 6ch sound so I'm not sure which isn't working for you. 2ch and 6ch(5.1) Vorbis should playback fine. We will need to wait for future version of the DSF that supports the other downmixing modes AFAIK.

DarkAvenger

24th March 2002, 18:24

@celtic_druid
I fact MaTTer answered your problem: Tobias' DSF can only properly play 6ch mc files. Nevertheless it is strange why the 2ch file doesn't sound correct. What exactly is the problem (distortion?)? Maybe the directsound drivers for the soundcard are buggy so that you have to mail the manufacturer. But you have an interesting workaround. Yes this 2in6 eg. will be about same bitrate as 2ch file, as 4ch consist of nothing, so Vorbis doesn't give them bits. But the problem is that the 2 true ch are not coupled so it is not as efficient as a real 2ch file.

MaTTeR

24th March 2002, 18:38

D A,

Thats a good point actually. Direct Sound must be used or otherwise I have heard distrtion(crackling) with the Wave Out.

I don't know if WiMP gives you the control over changing the audio device, another reason why I don't use it I guess.

TobiasWaldvogel

25th March 2002, 00:15

I plan to add channel mapping and to write a downmixing filter next week. DirectSound doesn't offer a correct 6->2 channel downmixing therfore I'm planning to write a downmixing filter. I though in creating a dialog with a slider for each to allow you to adjust the downmix to your needs and to save the profiles.

As already outlined mult channel playback works currently only with 6-channels but as you can see, we are on the way ... :)

Best regards,
Tobias

MaTTeR

25th March 2002, 00:25

Great work as usual Tobias. Did you see the thread @ PowerDivx where it was suggested the dowmix be handled by libvorbis? It was interesting but personally I like your DSF idea of the sliders.

ChristianHJW

25th March 2002, 00:51

The DSF soluion will put us on top of things .. and i honestly dont care much about Linux users .... :D .... they cant play Ogg movies anyway for now, true ?

MaTTeR

25th March 2002, 01:23

Play Ogg movies...I think it's tough enough for *nix users to play DivX flicks ATM;) Otherwise my home theater system would be totally Linux.

DSPguru

25th March 2002, 01:41

adding downmixing capabilties inside libvorbis isn't a bad idea.. :)

mayB Tobias could submit his implementations to xiph and they'll include it in future builds.

cjaar

17th December 2003, 04:54

@all,

I am not able to play 6ch ogg file on SB-live, there is no sound... its blank, the decoder shows that its a 6ch. But i can play 2channel without any problem. i hv XP-sp1, P4 2.4Gh and SB-live 5.1 and OggDS 0.9.9.5. Speakers settings in multimedia property is set to 5.1. Did try reinstalling the DS, but no luck...

But the same file i can play on my office machine without any prob, thouugh i can here only L-R. Win2k-sp4, soundmax, oggds0.9.9.

hd any1 faced this problem..

thx
cjaar

Human_USB

17th December 2003, 09:34

I can play every thing in linux that I can play in windows plus more.

All you have to do in "Gentoo" is just;

1: open console
2: type su
3: enter password
4: rsync
5: emerge mplayer

Done. I then can play MKVs to OGM with RM, QT, ASF, Divx, Xvid and so on. Fear the power of a penguin. :D

Also you don't have to install linux to play your media.....

http://www.geexbox.org/en/index.html
or
http://movix.sourceforge.net

-Jason S

ermannob

17th December 2003, 17:48

Originally posted by cjaar
@all,

I am not able to play 6ch ogg file on SB-live, there is no sound... its blank, the decoder shows that its a 6ch. But i can play 2channel without any problem. i hv XP-sp1, P4 2.4Gh and SB-live 5.1 and OggDS 0.9.9.5. Speakers settings in multimedia property is set to 5.1. Did try reinstalling the DS, but no luck...

But the same file i can play on my office machine without any prob, thouugh i can here only L-R. Win2k-sp4, soundmax, oggds0.9.9.

hd any1 faced this problem..

thx
cjaar

Hey, why didn't you open a new thread? I went on believing for half an hour that a new version was out!:rolleyes:

raistlin2k

17th December 2003, 19:31

Hey, why didn't you open a new thread? I went on believing for half an hour that a new version was out!

ME TOO!

Moreover I was really confused by the version number, already knowing that there exist two versions 0.9.9.6, and now a "new" one with a lower number:confused:

Really no good to take up such an old topic for an error report.

Raist