DVD2SVCD vs I-Author and Pioneer 545 playback

[Maras]

I did few movies with dvd2svcd. I noticed that in low bitrate part playback freezes or errors occurs (colored squares). Some people says, that it is pioneer specific. I did other test with 90min movie to 1 SVCD and it fails playback all the time. So i was close to believe that there is no other way.
Last time my friend says, that he hsa no problem with pioneer but he using i-author for muxing. I did test, demux all movies and mux with I-author & then burn with Eazy CD. All CDs playback OK on pioneer 545. So i think that this is no hardware problem, but only muxing problem.
Any idea how to avoid it with DVD2SVCD ??????

[markrb]

Your first problem is using EZ-CD. It is about the biggest piece of junk software on the planet. Use CDmage and convert the files to bin/cue and burn with VCDEasy or CDRWIN.

Mark

[Maras]

maybe i was not clear or you just assume i'm lame :-)
normaly i use both VCDEazy to burn bin/cue or DAEMON Tools & CDcopy by Nero.
Only when using I-Author i get image in EazyCD format so i use this.

Watch that using EazyCD i got GOD version.

[Sekatom]

Things that you describe are really very interesting for me.
I use Pioneer 444 at the moment, and I have also noticed, that freezes and errors occur when there is too low bitrate. Normally I used to encode such films with TMPGEnc with "padding video stream" option checked, and it was effective. I didn't think earlier to use I-Author for muxing, thus I have already noticed, that bbMPEG muxer have some problems on various standalone DVD players. For instance, muxing with bbMPEG results in audio/video desync on some Philips players. When I would confirm, that using I-Author for muxing resolves problems with low bitrate for Pioneer, that would mean, that I would never more use bbMPEG form muxing films.

[Maras]

Friend of mine has 444 and he confirm that it works for him too. So i'm sure that our problem is solved. I really would like to do it with dvd2avi... I did not try i-author options is dvd2svcd yet.

[Sekatom]

I have performed some tests yesterday, and I have some preliminary results. I have encoded 1st hour from one of the films that I have noticed problematic before ("Lord of the Rings" - it starts with blackness on the screen sequences) with CCE 2.50 300/2520/1708 bitrate settings, VBR 2-pass, GOP 3/5, and I have muxed ESs with I-Author. I have authored SVCD using VCDXImager with chapters etc. and after burning I have obtained disc that plays smoothly on Pioneer without problems. Then I have tried to fix one of the previously burned discs ("Aliens" - it also starts with blackness on the screen). I have demuxed mpg from the disc, and I have tried to mux with I-Author. Muxing failed - I-Author suddenly without any messages escaped to Windows while scanning video. I have tried this a few times, and then I have decided that there is a problem with I-Author. bbMPEG muxer muxed the above files without problems. The structure of video was GOP 3/4 (IBBPBBPBBPBB)- length 51 secs, file size about 630 MB, bitrate about 1800 kbps mean. Maybe I-Author has some issues on some kind of video files?
I am not completely sure, that using I-Author is a solution for Pioneer low bitrate problems, but the above test could be some kind of confirmation. I will make some other tests to become more experienced.

[markrb]

What I am saying is that EZ-CDcreator is considered to be one of the worst burning software out there. It is not recomended even for I-Author Cif files. Try this instead.

Q50: I'm using Iauthor, which creates cif image files. However, I would like to use bin/cue image files instead of cif. What should I do?
A:Dowload the latest BETA version of cdmage (1.02.1 beta 5). Extract it and open DVD2SVCD. Go to "finalize" tab, enable "use cdmage", and put its path. Now DVD2SVCD will make cif to bin/cue convertion automatically. Note: to use CDmage manually remember to choose mode2/2352


Use CDmage and convert the files to bin/cue and then burn with decent software.

Mark

[Sekatom]

I do not use EZ as I have written before. The real problem is I-Author itself. Do you have any experieces connected with this piece of software?
What I mean - do you know anything about I-Author crashes that I have noticed (above) when trying to mux 3/4 CCE video?
I am now almost (?!) sure, that muxing with I-Author multiplexer really solves Pioneer problems, and I am pretty sure, that many people use this hardware. CCE in my opinion gives the best picture, but the low bitrate problems that appear after CCE encoding on Pioneer were really annoying.
markrb - can you confirm, that after patching CCE does not respect bitrate limits (min/max), while it respects them when used without patching?

[markrb]

I am confused since you stated twice you used EZ CD creator.

from the initial post.
I did test, demux all movies and mux with I-author & then burn with Eazy CD.

And then here in my asking you to try using CDmage to convert the CIF files to Bin/Cue so you can burn with another program.

Only when using I-Author i get image in EazyCD format so i use this.

I have actually never used I-Author and if you are in fact converting the CIF images to CUE/BIN files then I am mistaken, but twice you said you burned using EZCDCreator.

I have a Pioneer player and have had no issues with VCDXBuild in over 50 cd's. I cannot confirm about the bitrates. I don't trust Bitrate Viewer and can only go by what my player does and it has always played my SVCD's fine.

Ah I see where my confusion was. I was thinking you were having problems with the images made by I-Author when in fact you are saying that I-Author fixed the problem. I would recomend if you are having low bitrate problems you can raise the Min bitrate up to maybe 500 and see if this fixes it. It would be simplier then messing with conversions, etc...

However if you do you I-Author convert the files to Cue/Bin to save yourself potential problems.

Mark

[Maras]

I have actually never used I-Author and if you are in fact converting the CIF images to CUE/BIN files then I am mistaken, but twice you said you burned using EZCDCreator.
OK, i said that. But i do it becouse i'm lazy and i'd like to do some tests in hurry. Notice, that i got GOOD result with EZY CD! It does not mean that EZ CD is good. It means that it does not fail this time (i hope). Anyway, the true is, that this way makes better result then bbMPEG muxing, making bin/cue and burning in recomended way.
I'm trying to say, that I (and many others) have problem with low bitrate movies on Pioneer player - specially x4x serie. I and my friend tests many ways to do better result with low bitrate SVCD, and finally we find, that problem does not occur when using I-Author (burning way does not matter).
I said before, that i did extreme test and encode PAL 90 min (16:9) movie to 1CD (4 pass CCE vbr). I played it with PowerDVD and noticed video bitrate below 500 (i set min bitrate to 300). This SVCD does not play properly until i mux it with I-Author.
Believe me please, that i did many tests with many tools after encoding phase. I tried all methods suggested in Q&A and i still got playing artefacts & freezes while playback with pioneer. Only changing muxing tool solve it.
I'm not good in tuning bbMPEG muxing so i used only default SVCD settings (in D2S or bbMPEG alone). I believe, that smart guys can suggest settings for get the same results like I-Author with other tools - thats is what i'm waiting for.

I converted all my troubles CDs (about 10) with I-Author & it confirm what i said before

[markrb]

If you set your min to 300 why are you complaining when the bitrate drops below 500? You allowed it to go that low.

I played it with PowerDVD and noticed video bitrate below 500 (i set min bitrate to 300).

If you want the video bitrate to stay above 500 then set the Min to 500 or above. If your player has problems with low bitrates then don't let the encode go that low.

Why have a program add to the stream to bring the bitrate up? Just make the bitrate higher to begin with.

Mark

[Sekatom]

markrb, sorry, but you don't read posts carefully.
In my opinion it does no matter if you set the minimum bitrate in patched CCE encoder to 300, 500 or 900 kbps. CCE does not respect borderline limits low/high at least when patched. In the parts of video, when there is blackness on the screen you obtain very low bitrate 180, 264, 384 and similar even if you set low limit to 1000, and I have found no way to press CCE encoder to use higher bitrate in these fragments. I agree now completely, that low bitrate problem for Pioneer could be solved in two ways:
1) encode with video bitrate padding (ie in TMPGEnc encoder) to prevent its decrease below 900 kbps
2)mux the ESs file with I-Author. When using DVD2SVCD it can be done manually after bbMPEG did mux and cut and before authoring.
I can imagine, that you, markrb can use some Pioneer player which do not suffer from low bitrate problem, but as you can read, many people share jerky output and errors after CCE encoding and bbMPEG muxing.
I personally suppose, that I-Author perform something like video stream padding while muxin, but I had not enough time to prove it.

[Maras]

1. I’m not very good in English. i try to prepare this post with dictionary to better understanding. i noticed that you (markrb) does not see the point.

2. I do not have (in opposite to Sekatom) problem with too low bitrate. I accept, that bitrate should go down to go up elsewhere. I said that I notice that using PowerDVD (not bitrateviewer) & I noticed that when bitrate goes to low Pioneer playback fails. i say it only to mention that:
LOW BITRATE + MUXING WITH bbMPEG = pioneer playback problem.

3. mine problem is, that I’d like to play my low bitrate movies with pioneer 545. What I noticed is:
LOW BITRATE + MUXING WITH I-Author + ANY AUTHORING&BURNING = NO PLAYBACK PROBLEM!

I guess that for pioneer, muxing low bitrate movies should be more carefully, that's all.
when I open muxing tab in bbMPEG, there is a lot of params, but i do not know what i have to change to get results similar to I-Author.

[markrb]

Yes I will admit I misread the post at first. It happens to the best of us.

There have been hundreds of people on this board that use Pioneer players like myself and have never mentioned this problem before. I have a x4x series unit as well and have had no issues.
If you say that everyone has this problem then why has it not been mentioned before? Could it be specific to the 545?

Even if what you say is true that CCE does not repspect the limits then you must still admit a statement like

I played it with PowerDVD and noticed video bitrate below 500 (i set min bitrate to 300). is obvious that if you set the low limit to 300 then of course it will fall below 500.

Have you tried any of the low bitrate patches for CCE that have been floating around? I have never used them, but I believe they are new matrixes.

It has also been stated that at low bitrates you might be better of using TMPG or abandoning SVCD and making a XVCD instead. I am not saying to do this just that this has been mentioned before.

Another thing to try is instead of using CCE 2.50 try CCE 2.62(don't use 2.64 it doesn't work well with DVD2SVCD) under safe mode and see if it still gives you the same results.

From within DVD2SVCD I don't see anything that will bit pad and in my limited experience with BBmpeg I don't remember anything there either. Tried to look at the BBmpeg homepage, but it seems to be down.

Have you tried raising the audio bitrate. I know it's a long shot, but maybe it's the combined audio/video bitrate that is giving you problems and if you raise the audio to 224 what happens?

Looked at the Avisynth doc's and I can't see anything there that would help.

I just want to point out one more time that EZ CD Creator is officially on the do not use list.

Worst case you already know three possible solutions.
1. Use I-Author
2. Use TMPG to encode
3. As a last resort get a new DVD player. I know not likely.

Mark

[Maras]

i do not have time now to answer whole post, but i comunicate my problem here http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13612&highlight=pioneer
and this problem is mentioned on www.vcdhelp.com (problem with low bitrate movies)

i'll answer more soon

[Maras]

If you say that everyone has this problem then why has it not been mentioned before? Could it be specific to the 545? My friend has 444, and has the same problem. I saw this problem on vcdhelp.com noticed. Sekatom has it too.
Have you tried any of the low bitrate patches for CCE that have been floating around? Yes i tried... it does not change anything.
Have you tried raising the audio bitrate. I know it's a long shot, but maybe it's the combined audio/video bitrate that is giving you problems and if you raise the audio to 224 what happens? One movie works ok when i change audio from 224 to 192 (whole d2s encoding done)

I just started encoding THE FAST AND FURIOUS with D2S with I-Author checked. I'll see if it helps. Maybe it's good way for my pioneer.

[Maras]

I encoded THE FAST AND THE FURIOUS with I-Author authoring and works OK. No playback problem. I encodec Ocean's Eleven from avi to SVCD (with low bitrate) and have no problem too.
Can anyone else confirm, that I-Author solves pioneer playback problem ???

There is only one other problem. First time when d2s runs I-Author it can not point it on correct project file. I-Author just opened in last folder i use. I have to open project file generated by d2s manualy and it works ok.

[Sekatom]

I really don´t know if the Pioneer problem is specific to the particular model. I suppose, that newer series with new firmware (red Pioneer logo on the black screen) with MP3 capabilities all suffer to the low bitrate problem. I know 535 model, which is certainly free from this issue and 444 that suffers.
After reading posts in this forum I have tried to use I-Author for muxing and VCDImager for authoring, and I have burned about 10 discs. I have noticed, that these discs play smoothly on my Pioneer 444, but when playing on the PC (WinDVD 3) output is not so smooth - video pauses slightly in these parts, when bitrate increases rapidly from very low (about 200-300 kbps) to higher (above 1500 kbps). Of course there could be many reasons connected to the PC itself, but I am afraid, that my SVCD discs muxed with I-Author while playing OK on Pioneer 444 could play errorously on other players - I should make more tests.
The point is, that I have found Pioneer low bitrate problem after encoding about 5-6 films that played OK after normal bbMPEG muxing. Only a few films create conditions for this problem to appear. In my experience, this happens the most often at the beginning of the film, when you can see writings appearing and disappearing on the black background (Aliens, Lord of the Rings). Not every film contains scenes that make CCE to produce extremely low bitrate. I have found no way to increase it in the parts when there is nothing but blackness on the screen.

[delly01]

My Pioneer 343 plays low bitrates without any problems. I had a problem with a Yamakawa 780 which would stutter with rates below 500 - the SVCDs played flawlessly on the Pioneer 343.

When I raised the minimum value from 300 to 500 KBit/s, the problem was also gone for the yamakawa.

Bye,

Detlev

[avdmb]

I am the recent owner of a pioneer DV-444 and got exactly the same problem than the one mentioned by Maras and Sekatom. After extensive reading of different forums, and first tests with DVD2SVCD, herewith a few statements and questions. I will post later the results of the more extensive tests I am currently running related to the min bitrate topic. Thanks to all the people in this forum for their dedication to help eachother.

1) min bitrate issue in CCE 2.50. I made a complete encoding of a 1.56 hours movie with bitrate settings : min 600, max 2520, audio 224. Forcing the output on 2 800 MB CDs, the average bitrate resulted in 1639. I did the test with BOTH CCE 2.50 trial (with the blue logo) and patch*d version. Both resulted in the same image freezing issue on my pioneer. Analysis with bitrate viewer showed indeed that bitrate sometimes drops below 600, despite the settings. I will further make tests to investigate if it is also the case with CCE 2.62 and 2.64.

2) Reading : http://www.planetenumerique.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php3?topic=1299&forum=17&4 (in French, sorry), people have apparently made extensive tests with different CBR on the pioneer DVD-444, and have proven (?) that minimum bitrate must indeed be > 600. They suceeded in doing that using TMPGEnc WITH video bitrate padding option enabled. I cancelled this test on my machine (PIII 450) as TMPGENC encoding time was estimated 74 hours (VBR 2 passes, bilinear smoothing) versus 24 hours with CCE 2.50 (VBR 4 passes, bilinear smoothing). But at least, TMPGEnc seems to offer a solution to min bitrate issue with CCE (is there an option I miss in CCE for bitrate padding ?)

3) Finally, Maras and Sekatom apparently even don't have an issue with min bitrate on Pioneer provided they use I-Author instead of bbMPEG for muxing. This is of course my preferred solution as CCE 2.50 encoding performance is much better than TMPGEnc. Given the CBR tests in 2), I wonder how it can work when bitrate drops below 600. Suggestion was that I-Author maybe performs bitrate padding : can somebody confirm ?

I am a newbie (first post !) and want to stick 100 % to the great program from DVD2SVCD. I prefer the stability of a proven solution tested by the several people from this forum (including workarounds) than struggling alone in the dark. I have a few questions for workarounds (being also suggestions for DVD2SVCD next release) :

1) The video bitrate padding option for TMPGEnc is not selected by DVD2SVCD. I guess the workaround is to use DVD2SVCD, stop the program during TMPGEnc processing, manually change the template an restart DVD2SCVD with recover option (can somebody confirm ?). Would it be possible in the next DVD2SVCD revision to include/offer this option.

2) Is there an easy workaround in DVD2SVCD to use I-Author instead of bbMPEG for muxing ? If yes, can somebody details the necessary steps to the newbie that I am. Also, if it is proven that the issue of min bitrate is indeed with bbMPEG and that I-Author solves it, it should be nice to include this option in the next DVD2SVCD release. CCE 2.50 is still the best solution for encoding speed.

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for your feedback.

[anarco]

why for gawds sake does i-author create .cif ?

I wanted to test it but (@markrb:) CDmage doesn´t convert those .cif generated by i-author and I just have some 3.x version of easy cd creator somewhere that came with the burner years ago :-/

any other muxing tools ? besides bbmpeg, i author and tmpgenc ?

I gotta test tmpgenc this evening...

Btw has someone got an easy way to continue with the chapters after the muxing with an external tool ? (easy=minimum interaction required ;))

Cause i-author doesn´t split up to discs it is kinda time consuming to let DVD2SVCD first run bbmpeg to mux and chunk and then manually
demux again :(

thats not only time consuming... it is stupid ;)
but how do you split then ? the i-author muxed mps doesn´t seem to be mpeg2 compliant... so scissors and alike will probably fail ?

[markrb]

I wish I had the Q + A question about CDmage still around. It had specific info how to do it and I believe was version related.

I am sorely lacking specifics since I never once converted the images, but I promise the correct combination of CDmage and I-Author does convert the Cif to Cue/Bin.

The Q + A question was removed when I-Author support was originally removed.

Ok did a quick search and came up with this thread. Last post has a step by step guide to convert Cif to bin/cue using CDMAGE.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17470&highlight=cdmage

According to this thread CDMAGE can convert any Cif file, but I cannot vouch from personal experience.

Mark

[anarco]

"CDMage Ver. 1.021 Beta 4 (or newer) needed"

thanks, I´ll try that one..


I just tried the regular release but it is also good to know that ez5 doesn´t support those images...
So maybe the old ezcdcreator will do the job if cdmage doesn´t work.

[avdmb]

Thanks to the people who participated to this post (especially Maras and Sekatom), as I could also solve my Pioneer playback problem using I-Author (see http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23887 for details).

There is a confusion in this thread about the full I-Author 1.0 program and the I-Author MPEG-II Multiplexer :
. If you use only I-Author Multiplexer, you don't have an issue with converting .cif format, using CDMage or older versions of EZCD. Details on how to use it in the abovementioned thread.
. If you use the full I-Author 1.0 starting from muxing until burned CDs, you will indeed face all conversion issues related to .cif format.

I have a last question : can somebody confirm that I-Author Muxer method works/don't work with multiple CDs movie ?

[Maras]

I use I-Author muxing & building from DVD2SVCD and it work perfect for me for 1 and 2 CD movies.

[anarco]

maras: and what do you use to split 2CD movies ?

[avdmb]

Maras,

I use I-Author muxing & building from DVD2SVCD and it work perfect for me for 1 and 2 CD movies.

I quite don't understand. In the DVD2SVCD ver 1.0.8 build1 :
. I-Author is not included in the bundle.
. There is no option to use I-Author for muxing, only for authoring (in CD Image window).

I have installed I-Author. After installation, you find different .exe, among other the complete I-Author 1.0 and the I-Author MPEGII Multiplexer.

What I am doing is the following :
. First run DVD2SVCD until the end (with CCE 2.50)
. When finished, I manually run the I-author MPEGII Multiplexer only (not the complete program) which is fairly easy to use :
- input video : Encoded_Video_CCE_PAL.mpv
- input audio : Encoded_audio_1.mp2
- "ps format" checked (important to get MPEG2 compatible output)
. Rename the output file ENCODED_VIDEO_CCE_PAL.ps into bbMPEG_Muxed_File00.mpg.
. Edit dvd2svcd_log.txt, copy the last command in the file, paste in the DOS run window and execute

Can you explain your method step-by-step ? Especially how you handle 2 CDs. Thanks in advance for your feedback.

[Maras]

I quite don't understand. In the DVD2SVCD ver 1.0.8 build1 :
. I-Author is not included in the bundle.
. There is no option to use I-Author for muxing, only for authoring (in CD Image window).
:cool:
i think that your ptoblem is, that you do not assume that DVD2SVCD is almost PERFECT tool :D.
i check I-Author for authoring, and it does all work OK (mux & author).
i use 1.0.7, but i think, that 1.0.8 can only be better. DVD2SVCD does all work like normally (mux & cut with bbMPEG), and after cutting it demux each MPG file, and then mux it with I-Author. Them it use I-Author for author and create cif image.
1.0.7 has some troubles with loading I-Author project, but i think it;s solved now.

[anarco]

Maras: wait.. when ticking i-author in "CD Image" TAB
DVD2SVCD does first a demux of the BBMPGed parts and remuxes them with i-author and then makes the images with i-author ?

is that what it actually does ?

but then, WHAT is used to demux the files again ? also bbmpg ?

and the results play well on the DV444 ?

well, if thats the case I can stop all my attempts in splitting
the encode before the mux...

[Maras]

i'm not expert, but i can say:
1. muxing and cuting with bbMPEG
2. demuxing splitted files with bbMPEG
3. muxing again with I-Author
4. building Image (with propoer PBC) with I-Author

that's way it's working.

[anarco]

thanks maras, this information gives some more clearance
of some problems, I´ll check it out with the current movie I tested

[avdmb]

Hi Maras,

The contents of this thread, with your contribution and the one of Sekatom, are really a must to read for all Pioneer owners. I have browsed many forums, and only found here the decisive inputs.

i think that your ptoblem is, that you do not assume that DVD2SVCD is almost PERFECT tool . Indeed, I made my life very complicated ! I tried like you suggested, and it worked perfect to solve low bitrate problem. At least, I experimented a way to use the I-Author muxer (solving low bitrate issue) and VCDXbuild (more powerful than I-Author, e.g. allowing direct access to chapters on Pioneer). I just read that DVD2SVCD will include this in his next revision.

There is only one other problem. First time when d2s runs I-Author it can not point it on correct project file. I-Author just opened in last folder i use. I have to open project file generated by d2s manualy and it works ok. I also faced this problem once (DVD2SVCD stopping in I-Author, looking for the I-Author project file).

From Sekatom : After reading posts in this forum I have tried to use I-Author for muxing and VCDImager for authoring, and I have burned about 10 discs. I have noticed, that these discs play smoothly on my Pioneer 444, but when playing on the PC (WinDVD 3) output is not so smooth - video pauses slightly in these parts, when bitrate increases rapidly from very low (about 200-300 kbps) to higher (above 1500 kbps). I have the same issue with PowerDVD. Video pauses very often in low motion parts, for about 1 sec.

i'm not expert, but i can say:
1. muxing and cuting with bbMPEG
2. demuxing splitted files with bbMPEG
3. muxing again with I-Author
4. building Image (with propoer PBC) with I-Author
Anarco, this is correct (look in the dvd2svcd.log file). When using I-Author, there are 2 additional steps compared with use of VCDXBuild : use of bbMPEG to mux, cut and demux files, in order for I-Author to be able to remux them in a format readable by I-Author.

I'm not good in tuning bbMPEG muxing so i used only default SVCD settings (in D2S or bbMPEG alone). I believe, that smart guys can suggest settings for get the same results like I-Author with other tools - thats is what i'm waiting for. I too. I have tried proposal from thread http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8039 ("~DVD" option in bbMPEG advanced settings), but it gives similar results than standard bbMPEG on my Pioneer DV-444.

[Maras]

At least, I experimented a way to use the I-Author muxer (solving low bitrate issue) and VCDXbuild (more powerful than I-Author, e.g. allowing direct access to chapters on Pioneer). I just read that DVD2SVCD will include this in his next revision.
I think that DVD2SVCD creates chapters with I-Author too. I use chapter each 90 sec. so i do not know if it works with DVD like chapters, but 90sec. chapters works ok with authoring in I-Author.
I noticed small sync problems after chapter jump, but it goes ok after few seconds.

[avdmb]

Maras,

You are right, but the difference is that with chapters created with I-Author, I can only access them with Next/Previous button, the direct access by number being not working. When using VCDXBuild, both are working : I can directly access e.g. chapter 17 (... but it seems not to work above 20).

I also have sync issues that are more or less resolved if waiting a little bit after critical parts. Stange enough is that it only happens playing the CD on my standalone DVD player (Pioneer DV-444), and not on software DVD player (PowerDVD). If interested in sharing your experiments on this, let's continue on an existing thread on the subject (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11018). So long, avdmb.