DTS .wav SPDIF pass trough

[pankov]

I've connected the SB Live 5.1 Player's SPDIF to a Sony DB-840 Receiver (DD and DTS Decoder) and in this way listen to music and dvds. Recently I found some DTS 5.1 wave files and want the Sony to decode them. Unfortunately I don't have a CD burner neither a standalone CD (DVD) Player so I have to find a way to do this trough the PC. The problem is that when I try to play these .wav files I hear only loud static. Is there any way to force the stream trough the SPDIF so the Sony Decoder cope with it? Are there any Direct Show filters that can do this?

[MaTTeR]

Well I would certainly like to know where you got these DTS WAV files. How is this possible without a decoder? No decoder exists right now.

If you in fact downloaded these from a credible site please post a link. I'd love to take a look though I doubt they are DTS.

[pankov]

I've downloaded one a few months ago but don't remember the site
:(
If you want I can try and send it to you by e-mail (Fire__VooDoo_Studio_30_sec.wav - 5MB).

Don't the SurCode's CD Pro and DVD encoders make such .wav files?

And is there any way to pass the stream from such a file trought the SPDIF?

[MaTTeR]

You can pass true DTS via SPDIF with no problem. What I'm in doubt of is a DTS WAV format though. AFAIK SurCode might just save the data to AC3 and not WAV. I could be wrong...perhaps DSPguru can clarify this as he is more familiar with SurCode than I am.

[Tes]

The DTS WAV file probably came from: http://www.minnetonkaaudio.com/Download_DTS_Recording.htm

I don't have any solution for you though, as I am in the same situation (no standalone cd or dvd player).

[MaTTeR]

First time I've seen a DTS WAV but I'm downloading it now:D

I'll post results later.

[Tes]

Cool. I just figured out how to playback the DTS WAV file. :D
I directly connected the digital output of my cd rom drive to the digital coaxial input of my AV receiver. But this process still requires a cd burner, sorry pankov :/

I just realized that this method should work better for playing regular audio CDs as well since the signal is not passed through my SB Live and resampled to 48kHz. I don't know if this process could harm my receiver since the cable I am using does not have an impedance of 75 Ohms. and I have no idea what the output level from my cd rom drive is. But it seems to work fine.

[MaTTeR]

I burnt it to an audio CD as well and it worked just fine.

I guess I never knew the SurCode wrote the audio out to a WAV file. Learn something everyday :-)

[pankov]

Tes, may be it's not a verry good idea to connect your CD's Digital Out to your Receiver because it's in TTL Levels (0-5V) and the receivers CoaxIn expects (-0.5V to +0.5V). On the other hand many receivers state that they can cope with such levels.

My problem is that my DVD-ROM (Pioneer 114F) like all Pioneer DVD-ROMs doesn't have Digital Out
:(

MaTTeR, I know I can pass normal DTS (from DVDs or .vob files) using WinDVD/PowerDVD without problems but what can I do with such wav files?
I tried making a .grf in which to direct the stream from WaveParser to the AC3FromAvi filter then to InterVideo's AudioDecoder (configured to S/PDIF output)and then to Default DirectSound Device. There are kind of not very bad results but no what I expected. I have my receiver docoding s.th. for a second or so but it's DD 3/2 (not DTS 3/2) and somethig ??!?!?! Karokee 3/2 (I haven't seen such thing) (I see this on the indicator of Sony DV-840).

Any ideas?
Probably I should not use the WaveParser and anything containig AC3 but what else?

[pankov]

Did anybody succeeded in playing the burned audio CD in a normal CD-ROM and getting DTS Pass trough without connecting the DigOut, but "Enabling the Digital CD Audio for this CD-ROM Device" in WinXP?

MaTTeR I suppose I don't have to e-mail you the .wav file any more, right?

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by pankov
Tes, may be it's not a verry good idea to connect your CD's Digital Out to your Receiver

The other reason not to use the digital out on the CD is because of jitter. The digital IDE path will generally provide a cleaner output with much less jitter.


MaTTeR, I know I can pass normal DTS (from DVDs or .vob files) using WinDVD/PowerDVD without problems but what can I do with such wav files?
The WAV file has to be burnt as an Audio CD in order to pass the DTS stream. Are you able to burn it?


Karokee 3/2 (I haven't seen such thing) (I see this on the indicator of Sony DV-840).
My Sony detected DTS 3/2 while in AFD mode and I forced the input the optical channel. Not sure why yours detected it differently.

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by pankov
Did anybody succeeded in playing the burned audio CD in a normal CD-ROM and getting DTS Pass trough without connecting the DigOutI used a regular CDROM for playback out of my HTPC via SPDIF. I don't have the digital CDROM connector hooked up anymore do to the jitter issue mentioned above.


MaTTeR I suppose I don't have to e-mail you the .wav file any more, right? I have the 14MB file now. Thx anyway

[pankov]

I haven't burned it yet and hope not to have to burn all such .wav files.
It's a very good news that I can play such a .wav file on my DVD-ROM without using the DigOut (which I don't have). So now I'm thinking of using a CD faking utils like DaemonTools or VirtualCD and mount an .iso or the directory itself.
btw what player did you use?
The better solution of course will be the ability to make a .grf file (or s.th. similar) with which to play it directly. This have to be possible because the the player and your CD-ROM in fact did this (they somehow directed the stream directly to the SPDIF)

The Karokee(3/2) appears only for less then a second when playing the .grf I described in my previous post. It apperas only when I start playing the .grf with mplayer2.exe (MP 6.4) for several times.

[MaTTeR]

I used both WinAmp and PowerDVD as players. The players are basically just sending the packets over SPDIF.

It's interesting that you were able to play the .grf file though. You were able to hear sound other than white noise?

BTW- Why the need to play these DTS WAV files from your PC? I assume your a musician?

[pankov]

Yes I was able to hear sound but for about a second and then MP 6.4 jumps to the end. (in this 1 sec I see first DD 3/2 and then Karokee 3/2 on the indicator of my Sony receiver).

I'm not a musician but a PC Freak :devil: that want's to know what his PC is doing or capable of doing.
But I think that this will be great for all users of SurCode that don't have a special sound cards on which they can preview the resulting .wav. Now (if suppose we find a solution) they will be able to hear their work immidiately without having to burn any CD even CD-RW

[DSPguru]

use a hexa-editor to convert the wavfile from little-endiand to big-endian, and then pass it thru the spdif to your reciever.

[pankov]

How am I supposed to do this?
Is there a guide?
Which Hex Editor and how exactly I do this convertion?
Which player (or what) I should I use to pass this .wav to the SPDIF?

[Tes]

Originally posted by pankov
Tes, may be it's not a verry good idea to connect your CD's Digital Out to your Receiver because it's in TTL Levels (0-5V) and the receivers CoaxIn expects (-0.5V to +0.5V). On the other hand many receivers state that they can cope with such levels.

Thanks for the information. I suppose I could make a little attenuator.

Originally posted by MaTTeR
The other reason not to use the digital out on the CD is because of jitter. The digital IDE path will generally provide a cleaner output with much less jitter.

It seems that I will just have to forget about using the digital out of my cdrom, although I hear that there is also quite a bit of jitter in the SPDIF output of the SB Live card that I am using. :/

Originally posted by MaTTeR
I used both WinAmp and PowerDVD as players. The players are basically just sending the packets over SPDIF.

What sound card are you using? The problem that pankov and I are having with this may be due to soundcard resampling or volume control issues.

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by Tes

It seems that I will just have to forget about using the digital out of my cdrom, although I hear that there is also quite a bit of jitter in the SPDIF output of the SB Live card that I am using. :/
Have a look at the cards I list in the AC3 FAQ as SoundBlaster alternatives. The cheaper cards work great if your just needing to pass SPDIF without hassle. The other cards listed such as Terratec are great all around.


What sound card are you using? The problem that pankov and I are having with this may be due to soundcard resampling or volume control issues.
I'm using a Zoltrix Nightengale Pro 5.1 card. I mainly just pass SPDIF with it and it also doesn't resample anything :) It's a great card for the price, though I'm not impressed by the gold plated analog ports(humming).

[pankov]

:)
I have a good news: I heard dts 3/2 without burning the .wav
:)
I used WinOnCD's CD-ROM Emulator and mounted the .c2d image of the audio cd I made with WinOnCD. I tried PowerDVD 4.0 but it doesn't want to start playing at all - again a crash. Tried Winamp 2.77 but it played only static like it did before. Then I played it with WinDVD 3.1 DTS and heard DTS either on my Sony and on my PC (using WinDVD's decoder). The strange thing is that there where difference ?!?!?!?. The bad is that on PC I heard drums, scream and a woman's voice but on the Sony not such things only the same rhythm and some vague reminding of the voice. Is it possible the resampling to 48kHz which SB Live do to mess things up this way but still leave it a dts? There is one more bad news WinDVD crashes when it stops playing this CD.
:( :( :(
So I have to find another way (or atleast other programs (not WinOnCD) using this method).

MaTTeR what version of Winamp do you use? and what output plugin (WaveMapper, your's soundcard WaveDevice or DirectSound)?
btw How this .wav (Fire Voodo ...) is supposed to sound like?

DSPguru, please explain a little the operations you are talking about. I tried HexWorkshop and changed the setting from litle-endian (Intel) to Big-Endian(Motorola) but there was no difference in the resulting file. I suppose I did s.th. wrong but don't know what.

[MaTTeR]

pankov,

I suspect the reason some(voices) of the sounds are much lighter on your Sony is ude to you not have DRC turned on. In my Sony, I usually leave it on with the "standard" setting. Check out your manual for more information on the function.

I use WinAmp 2.78(latest updates also) and recently started testing WA3 beta 3. The Wave Device is usally what I'm using for playback and I update it everytime Peter releases a new version:)

[DSPguru]

@pankov
HexWorkshop only changes the file VIEW from Intel to Motorola, but it doesn't actually change the file.
i believe that the emulator you found probably does this online.

i'm very short of time lately, but whenever free, i'll write a tiny program to convert the wave from intel to motorola.
should take me 13mins ;)

[pankov]

@MaTTeR
is DRC means Dynamic Range Compression?
If so why should I turn it On? I want to hear the original full range sound. My problem is not that the sound is not loud enough but it slightly reminds of the original (only in rhythm). I sounds a litle chopy (I think thats the word). I apologize for my English (I'm Bulgarian).

About Winamp I'm downloading the 2.78 now. Do I have to download another waveoutput plugin separately?

@DSPguru
I saw that HexWorkshop doesn't do anything. Can you only point me the program that can help me? And for the program you will write I'm hoping you will find 13( :) let's say 15)minutes these days for it.
:)

can someone explain what's the difference between litle-endian and big-endian?
(I'm simply to lazy to search the Internet)
:)

[MaTTeR]

@pankov

DRC will give you the full range of sound but the compression will make the range difference smaller. I'm sure your manual can explain better than I can:) It's not a bad idea to set DRC to standard and see how it sounds. This doesn't really have anything to do with the choppy sound you mention though. Is your sound cutting in and out like it stops and starts very quickly?

For WinAmp I'd advise using Peter's plug-ins. (http://www.blorp.com/~peter/) The Wave plug-in should be included with his package.

[DSPguru]

Originally posted by pankov
can someone explain what's the difference between litle-endian and big-endian?
(I'm simply to lazy to search the Internet)
:) different methods for storing data-types bigger than 2nibbles (byte). if you're into assembly, you'll find that intel is always doing the opposite than motorola.

btw,
fogive us, but we, forum mods, don't appreciate lazyness.

[DarkAvenger]

Use CoolEdit to convert: Open WAV, save as wav, click on options, choose Motorola byte order.

little end.: LSB,MSB: least significant byte (bit?) first. In computer 16bit values are stored as two 8bit=Byte values, the so this one determines which way the 8byte values are stored.

I am pretty sure the hex method doesn't work, as the header bytes would be swapped, as well...

[pankov]

@DSPguru
Thanks for the reply
:)
I'm not realy lazy but I was too tired to search the net right now. And about the Motorola and Intel's processors I knew there was s.th. but wasn't sure enough.

@DarkAvenger
Thanks. I'll try this right away when I go home.

@MaTTeR
The sound isn't cutting in or out. Or atleast the Sony indication stays still on "dts 3/2" and blue light for multi-channel decoding stays on. Usually when there is cut out the lighs goes off and the indication changes. I made a small (1.4MB) DTS Wav with SurCode's CD Pro DTS which speaks the name of the channel only on the particular channel and the sound was like the one from FireVoodo.... sounds different - like somebody used a scrambling device to alter his voice. But on PC everything is fine.
There was also another feature - the LFE channel didn't play at all. The indication on the Sony for LFE lighted on but nothing came out of the SubWoofer?!?!!?!? I doubt that the Sony decoder isn't good enough so there should be s.th. wrong with the source.

Any Ideas?
Does your sound card resample the stream to 48kHz?
Should I e-mail you my .wav so you can try it on your system?

[pankov]

DarkAvenger what version of CoolEdit do you use?
I tried CooldEdit Pro 1.0 and when saving as Windows PCM (*.wav) I don't have such options. I found them on the options when saving as PCM Raw data (*.pcm) and did this save. But I can't play this file with any program.
Please, help.
:(

[DarkAvenger]

CE2000, when I select "save as" I have an options button, and there I can select the target. But PCM helps as well: Save as pcm in motorola byte order. Open that pcm with correct sampling rate/bits/ch and save as wav, then you have what you wanted.

[pankov]

I tried this but with no luck. I saved one Motorola and one Intel .pcm and then saved them as .wav and both files where absolutely the same (or so say WinDiff and CompareIt).
:(
I also tried the Cool Edit 2000 1.0 build 2374and there were no such options when saving to *.wav.

It's strange which exactly is your version?
btw
Do you know what I should do with the resulting (converted) wav file?

[DarkAvenger]

Hmm, I'll make a test...

[pankov]

@DarkAvenger
Are there any results? Good or bad?

[DarkAvenger]

Following *does* work for me (I am only talking about the byte swapping...):

Open 16 bit WAV file, save as pcm in motorola wihtout .dat header and close file.
Open PCm in *Intel* byte order (del the .pk file before!) and save as Intel WAV.
now the bytes should be swapped.

In fact as WAV target I cannot chose anything , neither... :confused: but the way over headerless PCM works.

[DSPguru]

ok, here's something i wrote.

beware ! it wasn't debugged.

[pankov]

@DSPGuru
10x for the program
I tried it and got the same result as with the DarkAvenger's CoolEdit way
:)
Now what should I do with this converted file?
I tried playing it with Winamp but the result was almost the same like with the original - almost pink noise only a bit louder this time
:(
I also tried PowerDVD 4.0 DTS but the same result. WinDVD (which palyed the DTS Audio CD but with problems) doesn't open .wav files
:(

There is also one more sad news: I burened a CD-RW with both original Fire...wav and the one I created with SurCode and when played with WinDVD and decoded with my Sony DB-840 they both sound like processed by a scrambling device. Although the file I created played separetely on all speakers but the sub

The interesting thing is that when I play both of the files on my Live 5.1 using WinDVD I hear them perfect

Any body with an IDEA?

[Taric25]

Originally posted by pankov
The bad is that on PC I heard drums, scream and a woman's voice but on the Sony not such things only the same rhythm and some vague reminding of the voice.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Is the sound on your Sony or on your PC better?

[pankov]

On the PC is better. I use WinDVD 3.1 DTS and when I select 6ch output then it decodes the DTS and everything is fine (except that it crashes from time to time - which it never did before)

:(
When I listen to the CD on my Sony DB-840 using the S/PDIF option in WinDVD everything seams like processed with scrambling device (I think that's the name of the device that changes someones vioce so that it can't be recognized - makes it sound like robot).

One thing is shure: the problem is not in the source.
It's either in WinDVD (but I can use anything else because nothing else can output trough the S/PDIF and still make the Sony Decode) or in my SB Live 5.1 which resamples the audio to 48kHz.
btw
Is the resampling done also with the DTS (DD) stream?

[MaTTeR]

@pankov
If your using 6ch output mode then this is just simple analog. Your problem seems to lie within SPDIF output. Have you went back through the AC3/SPDIF FAQ and verified all your settings? What drivers are you using?

Passing a signal over SPDIF it suppose to be bit for bit. The SB card shouldn't or most likely can't alter the DTS stream. Then again, nothing would suprise me with Creative cards:D

DTS is 48kHz and should remain 48kHz without the card modifying packets.

[pankov]

Yes I've read the AC3 Q&A and in the moment I'm downloading drivers .3520 and .3512. For the moment I was using WinXP's drivers updated to 5.1.2602.0 and everything was fine. I was able to watch DTS DVDs using the S/PDIF. (or I'm 95% sure I was using these drivers). I'll test this later.

About the 6ch analog output - Yes, I use Jazz9902 speakers only on my PC when playing games or other not important stuff. When I watch movies or listen to the music I use the S/PDIF with the Sony and Tannoy mx series Hi-Fi Speakers.

If DTS is 48kHz why the Fire...wav is 44.1kHz or why the SurCode's CD Pro DTS acepts only 44.1kHz waves as input files for the channels and the output is also a 44.1kHz wav? Or even more the audio CD track is also 44.1.

btw
what is “Bypass SPDIF” mentioned in the AC3 Q&A and where I can find it so I can disable it? I have only "Bass redirection" and "AC-3 decode" in the advanced settings in Surround Mixer

[MaTTeR]

pankov,

I should have been more clear. DTS doesn't have to be 48kHz, it's just that on all the DTS DVD's I've seen, it is 48kHz. My point was that your sound card should not modify(ie.resample) the packets when outputting via SPDIF.

I mention the 3512 drivers in the FAQ because it seems that most of the SB 5.1 owners are having the best luck with them for passing SPDIF.

[DarkAvenger]

Resampling is probably not the error, as I guess DTS would be completely destroyed and you would only hear sh... uhh noise out of your speakers. But of course, I could be wrong.

[pankov]

I tried the new Creative drivers
:(
Bad Luck. No changes
:(
I'm still hoping that it's WinDVD's fault and I (we) will find other way of playing such .wav files or DTS CDs trough the S/PDIF.
Also Winamp 2.78c with all Peter's plugins don't work - only pink noise.

:(
I'm very disappointed

[MaTTeR]

Well it was worth a shot.

Keep in mind your sailing into uncharted waters here. This is going to make it difficult for you to accomplish your goal.

[pankov]

The bad thing is that I ran out of ideas and options too.
:(

But I'll keep digging and researching.
:)
And sailing - may be I'll find a new contintent
:)

[pankov]

More bad news:
I tired the WaveOut-DSound reg hack and it didnt' help. I also tried everything in Win98SE but nothing worked there either.

Now after I've tried everything on the driver and hardware side let's come back at the software where I think the problem lies. I think so because with WinDVD and PowerDVD I can watch and listen .vob files with DTS sonund without any problems at all.

Can somebody tell a software except WinDVD that can play DTS CDs or DTS .wav files and pass the stream trough the S/PDIF?

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by pankov

Can somebody tell a software except WinDVD that can play DTS CDs or DTS .wav files and pass the stream trough the S/PDIF?

Zoom Player can do this though you might have to create your own filter combo. You tried PowerDVD 4XP also? It should pass DTS as well.

[pankov]

@MaTTeR
Doesn't ZoomPlayer use external codecs for audio and video? Or it has also his own? What is this filter combo you are talking about?

I tried PowerDVD 4 but with no success. When I load the .wav I goes in stereo mode (can't force it in S/PDIF passtrough) and it plays only pink noise. When I select him to play the DTS CD it shows the following error:
Audio CD Error
Error Code: 8007000B
An attempt was made to load a program with an incorrect format.

[MaTTeR]

IMHO if your going to have success with this project then ZP is going to give you the most options for filter graph making. It uses just about any filter on the market :-)

Have a look at Blight's excellent help files and page.

[pankov]

I admit I didn't do and in depth testing with ZP yet but for the first try nothing worked. When I try to play the DTS CD in either sais that it couldn't find filters for it or that it's not in correct format.
:(

Can somebody which had succes in playing DTS CD (or DTS Wave file) on PC via S/PDIF explain how exactly he did this?
What software he used?
Which filters are used for playing? (you can see if the DTS wave file is rendered in GraphEdit)
What is his configuration? (SoundCard, type of S/PDIF connection, ...)

[MaTTeR]

@pankov,

Forgive me if I already mentioned this but perhaps you'll have better luck asking in the HTPC forums. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/)

You should be able to do a search and find someone with a simalar config as you.