DVD2SVCD: Options in the encoder tab

[Franklin2K]

Hi,

i just read the revised DVD2SVCD guide of Doom9 and have some questions concerning the options in the encoder tab.

It says, that one VOB file should be loaded in Bitrate Viewer. I did this yesterday for two movies (PAL, The 5th Element and "Eiskalte Engel (this is the german title, i don't know the english one ;-)). Bitrate Viewer says for both movies, dct type is "field" and the movies are "interlaced". When i watch th movies with PowerDVD 4 XP, i can't see horizontal lines, which are typical for interlaced movies - or am i wrong?

Is this a bug in Bitrate Viewer or do i have problems understanding the guide?

From my point of view, both movies are "progressive", so i should activate "zigzag" and "progressive frames", right?

Can someone explain the options in the encoder tab shortly? I have read all faqs, but i didn't find the information i'm looking for.

Thanks in advance

Franklin2K

[gerti67]

Hi Franklin2K,

all I can say from my recent testing with BitrateViewer is:

Don't trust it when it comes to PAL - I can't say anything for NTSC but for PAL source it seems to mess things up and does not show correct informations.

Indeed for PAL it is quite easy to tell what kind of movie you have. The big portion of all DVD movies are progressive (I would say about 95%) and the rest is true interlaced and if you want to watch them only on TV there's no need to deinterlace them. (Only thing is: Interlaced material needs very high bitrates to get some quality that is comparable to progressive encoded material - so one might want to deinterlace it to make it easier for the encoder to deal with the material but there are a lot of different opinions on that.)

And then there's a very little rest for PAL that is some kind of "pervert telecined" for PAL as someone in the AviSynth forum once said (I think it was Donald Graft himself but don't know for sure at the moment of writing) - these movies are brought up to the 25 fps for PAL by shifting fields for the last frames of a second and not just by increasing the display speed of the movie by 4% to shift them from 24 fps to 25 fps what is the usual thing for PAL. And these you want to do with the "Telecide (PAL)" deinterlacing option in "Encoder" tab.

I had some movies which were progressive but BitrateViewer always told me for each VOB file they were interlaced but that was not true at all. Then I had movies were BitrateViewer only told me that the first VOB file of a set was interlaced and the rest was progressive - but indeed they all were progressive.

OK, I know you shouldn't use BitrateViewer with the first VOB file of a set because it usually contains trailers and movie company logos that can really be interlaced so that BitrateViewer is telling the truth. But for example with Shrek it is able to show the Dreamworks trailer as interlaced and immediately switches to progrsseiv when the movie starts during the examination of the first VOB file.

And I've done true interlaced material with bottom field first order and (tested on standalone and TV) - and yes - BitrateViewer always tells me it is upper field first for PAL - indeed I believe BitrateViewer is not able to tell the correct field order for PAL - and I would really appreciate it if someone can prove me wrong to increase my confusion with BitrateViewer just a little bit more. ;)

Enough said, so here is the tip:

Start DVD2AVI and load the first ripped VOB with "File|Open", DVD2AVI automatically adds the remaining VOB files to the file list, then hit "OK". Move the slider at the bottom of the DVD2AVI window - if you see the typical interlacing effects during the whole movie then it is true interlaced and if you hit "F5" to preview the VOB files then DVD2AVI will tell you within it's statistic window that it is indeed interlaced. If this is the case, then you should uncheck "Zigzag scanning order" and "Progressive frames" and if the movement (Edit: ) with your standalone on your TV set during fast scenes is some kind of jerky/jittering with some kind of ghost frames then you should uncheck "Upper field first" also.

For progressive material just leave all options checked as from my testing the "Linear quantizer scale" should always be selected despite what CCE manual says about it because it gives you a far better quantization scale for the movie - this you can check with BitrateViewer and this is the only reason I use it for.

And the "Anti noise filter" leaving checked will do no harm nor any speed decrease for encoding so just leave it checked also. When using SimpleResize I prefer to set it to "4" but that's just my opinion.

The "Image quality priority" should be left at "17" also as it is a good and proven setting and DVD2SVCD's bitrate calculations might get confused if using different values which will result in different file sizes for the MPGs.

Wow, got quite long,
but I hope not to confuse you anymore,
Gerti

[Franklin2K]

Hi Gerti,

thank you very much for your detailed explanation. I think, I understood the most things you mentioned :-)

Let me summarise the procedure once again:

Depending on the results of DVD2AVI the following options should be checked/unchecked in DVD2SVCD:

Progressive material:
[X] Zigzag scanning order
[X] Progressive frames
[X] Linear quantizer scale
[ ] Upper field first
[X] Anti noise filter
Image quality priority [17]

Interlaced material:
[ ] Zigzag scanning order
[ ] Progressive frames
[X] Linear quantizer scale
[X] Upper field first (*)
[X] Anti noise filter
Image quality priority [17]

(*) This option should be unchecked, if the movement with the standalone player on the TV set during fast scenes is some kind of jerky/jittering with some kind of ghost frames.

Is this correct?
What about "Upper field first" with PAL material?

Franklin2K

[gerti67]

Hi again,

think you got it right. ;)

This is all for PAL what I've said.

For progressive material - the biggest portion of the movies - it doesn't make any difference if you have "Upper field first" checked or unchecked - that's the nature of progressive material. ;)

To determine if a interlaced movie needs "Upper field first" checked or not - there are some ways to do that with two different AviSynth scripts or TMPGEnc and some deinterlace settings.

Here is the procedure for TMPGEnc 2.5x:

Start your converson with DVD2SVCD as usual, then close DVD2SVCD and all open windows after the DVD2AVI processing is done (see the log file for that) or tick the "Edit when dvd2avi processing is done" option in "Frameserver" tab so the whole conversion process will stop at this stage and shows the "AviSynth" script.

Now just open TMPGEnc and hit the "Browse" button of the "Video source" field at the bottom, load the just created "DVD2AVI_PROJECT_FILE.d2v" file and hit the "Setting" button, go to "Advanced" tab and double-click on "Deinterlace".

In the following window select "Even-Odd field (field)" for the "Method" and use the left and right arrow keys of your keyboard to step through the movie. If the movie is full of heavy jittering and frames seem to jump forward and backwards during motion then hit "Cancel" and use the other "Field order" option in "Advanced" tab, again, double-click on "Deinterlace" and proceed through the movie with the "Even-Odd field (field)" method. If the movement now is smooth than hit cancel, and see the field order in advanced tab.

Now comes,

If it's "Top field first (field A)" then you have to uncheck "Upper field first" in DVD2SVCD's "Encoder" setting for CCE - logical isn't it? ;)

Just kidding, seems that TMPGEnc and CCE using a different definition of the bottom/top-field-first settings. So you have to check "Upper field first" if the motion in TMPGEnc is only smooth with "Bottom field first (field B)". Be aware this all applies to TMPGEnc 2.5x because if I remember correctly they have changed something in the past and earlier versions used the same definitions like CCE.

Now that you know the correct field order, you just can do a "Crash Recovery" with DVD2SVCD set the correct options in "Encoder" tab and hit "Continue" or you just hit the "OK" button in the "AviSynth" script window - after having set the correct options - to proceed in case you chose the "Frameserver" option to stop after DVD2AVI processing.

Greetings,
Gerti

[Franklin2K]

Hello Gerti,

once again, thank you very much :-). In case I have to encode an interlaced movie, I'll try it this way. But as far as I know, most PAL movies are progressive, so I will try the settings you mentioned in your first posting this evening.

Greetins, Franklin2K

[Franklin2K]

Hi Gerti,

I just started DVD2AVI and loadad the VOB files. I tested three movies (Eiskalte Engel, 5th Element, Seven Years In Tibet). But DVD2AVI says all three movies are interlaced. I can't believe that, because i can't see any horizontal lines or something like that. How is that possibel? Does DVD2AVI have Problems determining interlaced material (like Bitrate Viewer)? I'm a little bit confused :confused:

Thanks
Franklin2K

[gerti67]

Hi Franklin2K,

I'm a little bit confused :confused: Hehe, welcome to the club then. :D

Just another example: Gladiator is progressiv, BitrateViewer tells me the first VOB is interlaced and the rest is progressiv and DVD2AVI tells me the first VOB is progressiv.

So what? - Just believe your eyes, you will see in DVD2AVI when you have a true interlaced DVD source the interlacing (combing) effect is very outstanding when proceeding through the VOBs.

A short clip that for example is true interlaced is the "VTS_04_1.VOB" from "Shrek" PAL R2 DVD - the interview in 4:3 it is a good testing chapter for interlaced material also, and you will see that it needs more bitrate when leaving it interlaced.

Greetings,
Gerti

[zulu]

Hi Gerti67,

i'm glad i found this thread since i've got exactly the same questions regarding bitrateviewer. :)

There's one thing left which is a little ambiguous to me, though.
How to determine a "pervert telecined" source?
And if i know that the source is "pervert telecined", what to do with it? should i treat it as progressive or interlaced?

TIA,
zulu

[markrb]

@zulu I hope someone else can help you, because gerti67 has left for awhile and we don't know when he will be back.

Just wanted to give you a heads up incase you don't get an answer.
Unfortunely on this subject he was about as good as they get.

Mark

[zulu]

ouch. :(

Thanks for the quick info, Mark.

[hitch]

@zulu

You can find detailed explanatino on telecine, IVTC and interlacing in the DVD2AVI forum, please see the sticky there.