Capture vhs - settings

[RextheC]

Hallihallo :) I have some trouble with capture settings.
one thing is:

If AGC (the copy protection) is active. Will this effect a self-recorded VHS video?

will the video be negatively affected, or will it be completely unwatchable?

I'm asking because my Matrox Mini MX02 has an AGC checkbox, and my Grundig VCR has a function, ACC, to [improve the picture quality of my own recordings - manual grundig]

I'm not sure what setting I should use!

That's all for now :)
I wish I'd become a video engineer o-;

Thanks & Greetings

[RetsimLegin]

Copy protection: It shouldn't matter since a self-made tape won't have the trigger signals embedded in the "spare" lines outside the visible picture so "Macrovision" should not be present at all. That said, if tape playback is unstable for any other reason (eg dirt, stretch, aged equipment) it may cause a similar issue and the capture may fail or be glitchy.

Picture Enhancement: Try them both (on/off) and use whichever offers you the better (to you) outcome.

Aside: you should expect the very bottom of your captured picture to have a few lines where the image tears. This is true of all(?) video tape recordings and will need cropping off after capture.

[RextheC]

Ok thank you. Really have this lines. For me OFF AGC looks better.
Another Quest:
Should i capture in 8bit or 10bit, and if i capture 10bit..
should i convert it in QTGMC with YUY2 or YV12? and compress than to 8bit x264 .avi

[Emulgator]

Sample 10bit 422 and keep that as long as you can.
No YV12 before processing.
Downconvert as late as possible and only if you must (i.e if your final encoding format demands that).

[RextheC]

okey. BIg thx ;-D

That means i have to take YUY2 for my avs skript for de-interlace and than compress to x264 8bit, right?

[Emulgator]

Whatever your matrox delivers in 10-bit 422.
As of now nobody knows the codec you choose, you got to tell.
f the plane arrangement comes packed or planar only you can tell.
v210, P210...
If 8-bit, UYVY, YUY2...just upload a sample from your ADC so that I can see.

[RextheC]

Hallihellou :)
Ok,sry Its the m101 codec from matrox (lossless).

AvsPmod says the video is 8bit?! Matrox mx 02 mini setting to 10bit :-?

My Equipment and wireing is:

PAL-VHS-Cassettes with no Write or Copy-protection :) - no s-vhs or hi8 etc.
Grundig VCR (with ACC function - makes homevideo more clearly?!)

From VCR - Full SCART cable to a multi scart Adapter (looks more stable than the others with the s-video out) than with composite cable to the mx02 mini interface (pluged in the green slot) with special cable to pci-card in my WIN764 pro PC.

Signal than goes in the Matrox A/V tool capture-software whith all its settings P-;

I choose: PAL 4:3, AGC-off, super white and super black-on (because the Toshiba Camera had this function too), 8-bit, 1.field (for interlace vhs), keep original size, playback tool from matrox - disable. and composite !-)

What I dont know is the YUV format.is it 8bit 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 ? Mediainfo only says YUV

So the Question :-):
de-interlace with qtgmc should be with YUY2 or YV12

thx, und liebe Grüße

[Emulgator]

Video: A sample please. 100MB is enough. wetransfer.com
Maybe I find a m101 decoder to install or maybe ffmpeg can decode.
At that rate of matrox I would expect 422.

Grundig VCR: the model name please.
If your VCR has S-Video out: prefer that.
No matter if the adapter looks more stable or not.
SCART will only supply composite, why choose that if you can get component video?

ACC=Automatic Contour Control. What that does I can not tell.
Do not apply any playerside filtering like any old sharpening or 3DNR before AviSynth,
it may be detrimental to elevated postprocessing.

If "Super white" and "super black" makes sense ?
Normally only if Digital Video is ingested which makes use of that range.
(some Digicams deliver 16..254, some webcams even 0..255)

If that is for setting the output range of digitalisation,
well, you may use these additional sample values but take care to tell all avisynth filters while processing and previewing.

[RextheC]

Hy
m101 codec on win needs vfw or multiplexing with mkvtoolnix that avisynth can handle it with ffmpg source.
Or in my case the Matrox HW install the codec. BUT I have to install the Encoder SW etc (VD,avisynth..)
first!!!! otherwise m101 with "avisource" wont run with avisynth+ at all.

I can make a sample and load it up to wetransfer. Should i turn the ACC (contour extreme more sharp) from the Grundig VCR ON or OFF for the sample?
VCR has no s-video out. [Grundig GV 9000 SV]

The Camera which had recorded, was a Hitachi color video camera vk-c850

SW+SB looks better.. i think.

It seems to me that now since 3 years.. im at that point where i have to make the right script.
(fourth vcr, new pc, lot of time :-/)

I wondering why my .avi video (half hour) takes 6 hours to get throu qtgmc and avisynth and convert to mkv?

bigBIG Dankeschön :)
EDIT:
Is that possible with component? thats new to me. Ill give a try. thx

[Emulgator]

Hitachi Saticon Color Video Camera VK C850 (PAL)
Was a straight Saticon tube cam from 1982, not a camcorder, live output via 10-pin to FBAS.

Best to play that off the VCR which it was recorded on.
If it was recorded as S-VHS back then (possible from 1987 on), S-VHS deck please.

Otherwise if recorded as Standard VHS, a VHS deck will suffice.

The Grundig GV 9000 has Scart only, so FBAS (CVBS Composite only).
Grundig ACC off, please.

Any sharpening has to wait until later in the chain, after QTGMC has worked its magic, and after dehaloing, and whatnot...
If available: a S-VHS deck would be better though anyway, from there use component S-Video (4-pin Hosiden cable) to Matrox.
This can tickle the last fine structure from the tape.

[RextheC]

okey hy & sry for delay . was busy.. hmm

i dont have a s-vhs deck. But with PAL vhs there is no reason to buy one - i think?!
Have
-orion - 6head
-nokia - 4head
-grundig - 4head
-lg - 6head
VCR

with "normal" Scart adapter (out) to mx02 with composite. Component didnt work. Think only NTSC can do that?!

Now i ?take orion vcr with (no control functions (vcr and mx02mini))
choose 8bit nothing else, and load it up to wetrnsfr :)

VeryTHX&GRZ

[Emulgator]

Just use all 4 decks and capture from the same scene.
Those 4 samples may be useful for anyone wanting to compare how those VCRs treat the signal.
One of these will deliver the best restoration basis.

BTW, component playback is possible from PAL too.
All it takes is a deck that keeps the Y/C signals at separated outputs, and S-VHS decks have to have these by nature,
because recompositing into the one FBAS would kill quality, and UHF modulation (antenna output) even more.
With a standard VHS deck there is no component out to be expected.

[RextheC]

I ve done this.. up and down :) the last month, now - its save:
The Orion is the best one. makes a clear picture with no controls by the vcr and the mx02 interface.

[rgr]

Clear doesn't mean best. In fact, it often means the opposite -- it usually means aggressive (read: low-quality) noise reduction performed by the VCR.

[Emulgator]

Exactly.
That's why I suggest to generate 4 samples with all the grit, bypassing any 1980..2005 VHS hardware processing,
then first assessment welcoming any grit and noise dug out with.

Then take care with the advanced offline processing we have in 2026, and then judge.
If done properly such intermediate might stand any later FHD, even 4K AI upscaling without "eek".

Here I use the S-VHS VCR that digs out most of the finest detail, not going for smoothness,
most time preferring a NV-HS950 over a AG-7750 while leaving the latest available DMR-EX95 unused.

Once a consumer VCR would apply any nicey online lowpass filtering most details are gone for good, not speaking about smearing.

(Note to self: Still have to get around to finally hook up my Domesday Replicator chain, but then my test baby EX95 died from (hopefully) PSU fault.
As the ADC PCB came in my first look was:
Eek, so here is input signal ground tied to the VCR and there is the supply GND from the USB3 jack.
Noo, ground loops lurking, let's postpone that...
Someone else's DdR footage showed ugly echoes...so more research, time permitting.)

[RextheC]

Can do it .. to be continued..
but, hmm, okey:)
Only the lg is bricked when i was trying to adjust the vcr.
trying something - than i make the 3 samples.

Very thx to all - Grüße aus Karlsruhe/Germany (-:
sry for spelling errors

[RextheC]

The strange thing is, that ifve i choose 10bit in av tool..sw matrox for mx02mini
AvsPmod says 8bit.
Its 4.2.2 capture. makes no diffrence if i choose 8 or 10 bit it is always the same chroma 4.2.2. ?!

So i take YUY2 in avs and compress it in 8bit 4,2,0 mkv x264.

looks NOW not so bad. . . but who knows. i have to wait 26h for 3h to convert/compress.. than i can report the result :)(-;

Danke, bis bald :)

[RextheC]

Hey guys.
My MAIN problem is:
that i do not know how i have to crop the bottom normal vhs-lines (PAL 4:3)
than resize to half of the width, and resize back to original 4:3 = 768x576 ? without getting a oversized video on tv player.

Have found this: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/375423-VHS-capturing-luma-chroma-crosstalk-What-do-you-think

I think the codec and/or the codec and capture settings are wrong..?

Pleeeeas :p what do you think, any ideas.
too much input for me now :-O

p.s: dont force me to do 4 samples.. but - if that helps........................... i will try to do..
THX

[rgr]

Why? Any resizing operations are pointless. (Unless there's a valid reason, like upscaling to HD.) You crop each side and save at the resolution you achieved with the 12:11 (PAL) PAR.

[rgr]

okey hy & sry for delay . was busy.. hmm

i dont have a s-vhs deck. But with PAL vhs there is no reason to buy one - i think?!
Have
-orion - 6head
-nokia - 4head
-grundig - 4head
-lg - 6head


If you have a good filter, you can use composite. DVD recorders have a good filter (Panasonic for sure, others probably too).

[rgr]

SCART will only supply composite

SCART supports composite, S-Video, as well as RGB and component.

[rgr]

If "Super white" and "super black" makes sense ?
Normally only if Digital Video is ingested which makes use of that range.
(some Digicams deliver 16..254, some webcams even 0..255)

VCRs also send a signal beyond the 235 range, especially Toshibas and LG, which do this as standard.

[RextheC]

ok, so many things confusing me.
i have to set the capture codec first. m101 or mpeg2 l-frame. whatever bit-deep
than the codec settings:
chroma range 16-255 or 0-255
interpolation to rgb or not
dont know anything now - since 3 yerars :(

edit: THX

i try the lossy l-frame next and report,
again thx for help.

My father is 88, HAVETOFINDASOLUTION

[RextheC]

very first:
SHOULD i buy a vcr with s-video out?
if so
what model do you prefer or vendor?

grzthx

[rgr]

very first:
SHOULD i buy a vcr with s-video out?
if so
what model do you prefer or vendor?

grzthx

As I wrote, if you have a good composite filter, you don't need s-video VCR.
A good filter = e.g., a DVD Recorder.
I don't know if the Matrox has a good Y/C filter. Does it?
If not, it would be a good idea to use some kind of "intermediary" like the mentioned DVD Recorder.

[RextheC]

i can connect the matrox interface with y/c from my vcr with adapter from scart to s-video to mx02 mini.
But does this make sense.. ive tried this with y-chinch cable, but the signal only cut in two equal signals,
think so... because if i plug the cable from blue to red, makes no diffrence to the capture picture.
no seperate chroma and luma channel..?!
grz

[rgr]

i can connect the matrox interface with y/c from my vcr with adapter from scart to s-video to mx02 mini.

A cheap Chinese adapter will probably not be a good filter.

[RextheC]

How can i check this filter ?
i beleive the mini for about 500 $ should have a good one... i ve no idea!?
I go with composite in the green slot from the mini :) that works.
Dont want to buy a 5th vcr with s-video..
..have only regular vhs tapes.

other thing (codec settings) in A/V tool from matrox:
what is chroma interpolation yuv>rgb
do i need that?

the captured file has 25fps raw uncompressed .avi. do i have to qtgmc this with avisynth+ to watch it probaply on tv?
or only sharpen and other things with avisynth?
Hmmmmm
cant give up..
try something and let you know.
BigThxagain

[rgr]

1. Post a video sample, so we can check the filter quality. And I'll say it again - you don't need a VCR with S-Video. You can use a DVD recorder as an intermediary, which will also improve signal stability (TBC style).

2. I don't know anything about Matrox or its software. You should be capturing in YUV422 without converting to RGB. Post some screenshots of what it looks like.

3. Yes, you need to deinterlace to 50 fps, e.g., using QTGMC.

[RextheC]

Ok.
I make a sample now.
and load it up to wetransfer.

[Grundig-VCR with all -specials- off, than scart to my "stable" :) adapter, composite to matrox mini mx02]

[Capture with 8bit uncompressed m101 codec, SW+SB allow, AGC off, PAL 4:3, consumer quality, 1field (playback setting), stereo embedd and extra wave also, - with the matrox a/v tool for win in the vers 7.1]

[codec setting: only switch to the higher chroma range from 16- .. to 0-... ]

edit: one more problem.. my pc monitor has bricked today. AhRRrr
oh man, to be continued
..need a pc-monitor , WhAt!! i cant believe it.
never had more struggle with anything else.
will send a report, if i solve this 155th problem.
MFG
ciaoy


Something i notice: Why does the CRT value in VD,
can influence the aspect ratio? compressed with x264 .mkv ?
VeryThX

[RextheC]

Hey Guys, for 3 days:
https://we.tl/t-FjTiJF2uxg4FYvmc
GRZ
Tobias

[Emulgator]

Well, I have downloaded the 1,5GB, and installed the Matrox codec on a backup WinXP system.
mediainfo sees the M101 data as YUV, but the codec seems to want to convert and deliver as RGB.
The codec settings dialog does not have a tick box for "Do not convert", only YUV 16-235 to RGB or YUV 0-255 to RGB.

Capture has good detail, but there are patches of unusually sharp moiré, sometimes stripewise (here I would guess on RF leaking into the signal),
sometimes at bright/colourful parts. Well, all those considerations about filtering... For my taste too sharp to come from tape.
Changing codec's chroma filter settings did not make any effect on reload of script.

I go with composite in the green slot from the mini that works.
Did not work. That CVBS into Y capture was unusable, and any (Q)TGMC can not mend that.

The Mini has only component inputs, so needs component signals, therefore it is the mini.
Dedicated composite inputs you can have only with MXO2 and MXO2 LE.
The manual suggests otherwise and talks about composite in the mini section too.
With the mini kit you should have got a Y-split S-video adapter cable (Hosiden 4-pin to 2x RCA cinch)
If I interpret the picture correctly, I see Y into Pb and C into Pr.
This would need a mode switch outside, or a switching logic inside, or a settings dialogue.
If one of these RCAs accommodates a real composite (FBAS) input decoding too ?
The manual is silent about that, so I am a bit wary.

This might make you want to buy a S-VHS deck.
Or a Hauppauge USB-Live 2 ?
Works nicely here (2 of them), 50€ now (was 40€), YUV 4:2:2 uncompressed, no hassle decoding.
Less susceptible to framedrops than Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle (10-bit YUV 4:2:2), 466€ (ouch!, was 189€)

BTW, 221Mb/s is huge, Matrox.
Lets do the math: 720x576=414720px/f * 25f/s = 10.368.000px/s * 8bpcY = 82.944.000bpsY + 82.944.000bpsCb + 82.944.000bpsCr = 248Mbps 4:4:4 YUV uncompressed.
mediainfo sees 21.333bits/pixel of the 24pbb needed for uncompressed, this concurs with my findings 221/248Mbps, compression down to 88.8%, well...

[RextheC]

It seems to me that i need to take mpeg2.I-frame for interleaced pal video, with zigzag order , regular ?! or alternate?. 25fps
i do now try this with,
no settings change in the codec sw. mtx utilities 7.1
because i think qtgmc do the interpolation thing from yuv to rgb , so that avisynth+ can do a better job...?
or i sei it to interpolation yuv>rgb....? and dunno need qtgmc?

what does mean zigzag order?

manYgRz

[Emulgator]

Well, sorry if I had distracted you with my bitrate musings, not of any concern here.
Do not use MPEG-2 as capturing codec. This is not state of the art anymore.
Starting the processing chain with unnecessary encoding artifacts (blocks, mosquito)...
Even at the best implementations MPEG-2 is rarely better than 38dB PSNR, and often worse.
Later in the chain (sharpening ? upscaling ?) you will be sorry, and while trying to mend that you will have to lose detail and add smear.
Capture uncompressed at any rate.

[RextheC]

okey
will do so,
8bit uncompressed losless m101 codec will be the better choise?!

but what about the codec config in a/v tools,
do i have to choose another chroma range or interpolation to rgb?

will try..

Dankeschön :)

Grüße (-:

[Emulgator]

Config Screenshots please.
P.S. I was just going through the 370page manual, and yes, on page 281 there it is, as you said:
MXO2 mini Composite video (CVBS) shall go into Y input, 10bit video capturing is available, and 8bit.

I don't know the settings window nor the application you capture into.
page 71:
PAL 4:3, select "Composite" from the Input Source dropdown.
Consumer-quality source may be helpful, no AGC. (Where does the moiré come from, I still wonder...)

Capture format 576i@25fps, Codec: Try Matrox 10-bit Uncompressed and check if this can be decoded properly on your AviSynth chain,
if not: Fallback to Matrox 8-bit Uncompressed.

If that fails, well then:
MPEG-2 I-frame 4:2:2 CBR at the highest available bit rate (50Mbps ?) DC Precision 9, Force frame-based unckecked.

[x264N00b]

If you remux the .AVI to .MKV with mkvtoolnix you can play the sample with MPV player and also process with Staxrip. I only tested it with the latest build. Last supported build for Windows 7 is v2.10.0. But I think with some small limitations and downgrading mkvtoolnix you can use latest build also on Windows 7.

But the posted sample has those weird artefacts all over the place. As said sharp moiré.

[RextheC]

I thxyou very much.
I will reply soon as i can.

:-)
byby

[RextheC]

I can work with avisynth+
and the 10 bit uncompressed file,
AvsPmod says that its a 8 bit file? I assume that the data stream from the mini (interface) anyway gives only 8bit to the pci card..?!
And the other programms work as best with 8 bit, i think?!

If i take the capture with that settings,

i also do have to spline36resize from 360,576 to 720,576 to delete the some fine vertical lines in the picture :-/,
than i crop ,
and spline36resize to the original 768x576.

QTGMC, than the rest - right?

[x264N00b]

Never resize an interlaced video / always deinterlace before resizing.

[RextheC]

Ahhsooo, okey :o) !!
So i have to crop and the resize thing..
after qtgmc?
!
Dankesch:0n or in other words - Thank you :)

[rgr]

1. crop
2. qtgmc
3. resize

I consider resize unnecessary; it's a shame to lose quality. It's better to encode with the correct PAR (for PAL 12:11).

[RextheC]

I think DAR= PARxSAR, so i have squared pixels 1:1, and a aspect ratio 4:3 with 768x576 ?!
Once more.. what about the Chroma with qtgmc,
Do i have to choose YUY2 or YV12?

A screenshot from the codec conversion settings comes soon - today..
I would try the PAR 12:11, but
how i must crop for this?

Many Grüße aus Germany

[x264N00b]

1. crop
2. qtgmc
3. resize

I consider resize unnecessary; it's a shame to lose quality. It's better to encode with the correct PAR (for PAL 12:11).
Then cancel 2. too. Software deinterlacing will also decrease the quality / detail, even with QTGMC. It's a fact.

Do you mean encode anamorphic? So he had to crop the width by 16 pixel to 704 and set PAR 12:11 for PAL in the encoder settings? What if you want to crop some more pixels, then there will be a exotic PAR and some players wil have problems. With cropping the sample by only 8px left and right it still has dirty edges.
If he decides for deinterlacing, why not crop and resize to PAR 1:1 with upscaling the width / removing the anamorphic and let the video height untouched?

[RextheC]

Hy
At first, the screenshot from the capture,
and the codec conversion settings here:

And @x264N00b YES! That is what ive benn think all the time - if i have captured a interlaced vhs, and media info says 25fps, it must be progressive?
So what i than have to do,
I HaVe N0 IDeA

EDIT: Exactly this is one of the main problems, because i want to crop the bottom of the video to cut the normal bottom lines off.

[x264N00b]

No thats right, it's interlaced as it should be. But the first step should be to get rid of that weird sharp moiré effect. (hardware problem I guess)

[RextheC]

I tried everything - only thing that worked is to resize from 360x576 to 720x576 or perhaps from 384x576 to 768x576 ??! oh man its hard!
GRZ

[rgr]

Then cancel 2. too. Software deinterlacing will also decrease the quality / detail, even with QTGMC. It's a fact.

???
Deinterlacing has to be done anyway. And where did you get the idea that software deinterlacing degrades quality while hardware deinterlacing doesn't???

Do you mean encode anamorphic? So he had to crop the width by 16 pixel to 704 and set PAR 12:11 for PAL in the encoder settings?

It doesn't matter how much he cuts and from which side - as long as he keeps the PAR 12:11, the proportions will be correct.

What if you want to crop some more pixels, then there will be a exotic PAR and some players wil have problems. With cropping the sample by only 8px left and right it still has dirty edges.

???
The PAR always stays the same. Only the DAR changes.

If he decides for deinterlacing, why not crop and resize to PAR 1:1 with upscaling the width / removing the anamorphic and let the video height untouched?

If you first upscale from 720x576 to 768@576, and then from 768@576 to 1920x1080 (or 4K), you have two upscaling steps. It's better if the player upscales from 720x576 to 1920x1080 immediately.

[x264N00b]

I tried everything - only thing that worked is to resize from 360x576 to 720x576 or perhaps from 384x576 to 768x576 ??! oh man its hard!
GRZ
That dosen't really fixes the problem it's just less noticeable because you lose resolution and detail.

???
Deinterlacing has to be done anyway. And where did you get the idea that software deinterlacing degrades quality while hardware deinterlacing doesn't???
I never said that.
It has to be done but there is also the possibility to encode it interlaced with x264s MBAFF methode and let the TV do the deinterlacing. It's a matter of taste, I was never really satisfied with yadif, bwdif, nnedi or qtgmc. Qtgmc gives you a nice improvement in anti-aliasing and image stabilisation but it it denoises to strong for my taste. Furthermore I was never able to retain grain nicely with any software deinterlacer.


It doesn't matter how much he cuts and from which side - as long as he keeps the PAR 12:11, the proportions will be correct.
How can they be correct if you crop more then the 16px and don't resize to square pixel? 704*1,09090909091=768; 768/576=1,33333 (4:3)
If you crop 32px for expample 688x1,09090909091=750,5; 750/576=1,302 which would be the wrong aspect ratio.

???
The PAR always stays the same. Only the DAR changes.
Yeah I misstyped, I meant DAR obviously.


If you first upscale from 720x576 to 768@576, and then from 768@576 to 1920x1080 (or 4K), you have two upscaling steps. It's better if the player upscales from 720x576 to 1920x1080 immediately.
Visible not noticeable in any way if you ask me related to the excellent job software resizer do nowadays.

[rgr]

I never said that.
It has to be done but there is also the possibility to encode it interlaced with x264s MBAFF methode and let the TV do the deinterlacing. It's a matter of taste, I was never really satisfied with yadif, bwdif, nnedi or qtgmc. Qtgmc gives you a nice improvement in anti-aliasing and image stabilisation but it it denoises to strong for my taste. Furthermore I was never able to retain grain nicely with any software deinterlacer.

You can adjust the level of denoising in QTGMC. Besides, it's highly doubtful that a TV will have better deinterlacing than QTGMC -- but of course, you can save it as interlaced.

How can they be correct if you crop more then the 16px and don't resize to square pixel? 704*1,09090909091=768; 768/576=1,33333 (4:3)
If you crop 32px for expample 688x1,09090909091=750,5; 750/576=1,302 which would be the wrong aspect ratio.

Why bad? It will be correct, and the PAR will still be 12:11.

Visible not noticeable in any way if you ask me related to the excellent job software resizer do nowadays.

There are many operations you can perform on an image that will not be visible -- and will be completely unnecessary.