Windows 11 stuttering ?

[pirlouy]

Testing my new 9060 XT, I encountered a strange problem, I though it was a AMD driver but after more tests, I think I managed to reproduce it with my Geforce 1060. So I think it's a Windows 11 bug.
Any volunteers to do some tests for me ?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Pf54IJ1N5XH3gS74vchD4pF0JlFRVjzQ?usp=sharing
- Download the 60 fps test file
- Set your monitor frequency at 120 Hz (be sure not to have "Dynamic refresh rate" setting enabled, it would use your monitor in 60 Hz mode, meh...)
- Close every windows (especially browsers)
- If possible, test with mpv (no config, or your config, but don't use resample setting).
(You can use mpcVR, it's reproducible, but less frequently)

-> Play the 60 Fps file on 120 Hz monitor. Avoid seeking the file (I reported an issue with MPC-BE, so I think the file is not well encoded).
You should see judder (especially the higher bar) !
If not, close the file and try again several times, it should happen at one point.

The same file with 60 Hz monitor should play fine.
You can also reproduce this with 50 fps on 100 Hz frequency, and even 30 fps on 60 Hz.

I hope for my peace of mind that you can reproduce. It looks like Windows vSync (DWM ?) does not manage well these cases (half-frequency framerate).
I've tried several things in Windows and AMD drivers settings, without success: FSE on, HAGS off, Game Mode off.

[ahsansahab]

f your Windows 11 is stuttering, don’t worry — it happens!
Usually it’s just something small causing the system to slow down. Try these quick fixes:

Restart your PC — honestly, this alone fixes a lot.

Close heavy apps running in the background (like games,Chrome with many tabs, etc.).

Update Windows & drivers — outdated drivers often cause stutters.

Check for overheating — if your laptop feels very hot, it can start lagging.

Disable unnecessary startup apps so your system loads lighter.

Turn off animations: Settings > Accessibility > Visual effects > turn off Animation effects.

If the stuttering stays, it might be something deeper like a weak hard drive or a background process using too much CPU, but most of the time the steps above solve it قطار الحرمين السريع (https://haramaintrainsa.net/).

[huhn]

you can try to disable MPO if you have freesync support disable it for a test.

i have an issue with nvidia here it sometimes uses 122 for a split sec even through the screen is set to 120 (in theory the TV can do 144)

[Klaus1189]

I can confirm the issue, without even testing with your testfile. I encountered the same issue on my own.
What is HALG?

[pirlouy]

@huhn: FWIR, it is not possible to disable MPO with Windows 11 recent versions.
But did you reproduce the stuttering issue with 60 fps file on 120 Hz ?

@Klaus: Thanks for the confirmation. I guess handling Vsync must me really complicated and Microsoft did not manage to handle it.
Too bad, in the past, you could disable the entire thing (with Windows 7, disabling Desktop Composition service).

Sorry I meant HAGS that you must know (forgot to change the abbreviation before to publish): Hardware-Accelerated GPU Scheduling (in Settings > System > Display > Graphics).

[Klaus1189]

OK, since I did not do test to this time, do you "only" have issue with these double refreshrates:
25.000p on 50.000 Hz (2x)
29.970p on 59.940 Hz (2x)
30.000p on 60.000 Hz (2x)
50.000p on 100.000 Hz (2x)
59.940p on 119.880 Hz (2x)
60.000p on 120.000 Hz (2x)

Do you have issue playing these:
23.976p on 119.880 Hz (5x)
24.000p on 120.000 Hz (5x)
25.000p on 100.000 Hz (4x)
29.970p on 119.970 Hz (4x)
30.000p on 120.000 Hz (4x)

I use RTX50 card btw.

[huhn]

that file no... because it doesn't work in general yes that's an old issue on win 11 killing the explorer fixes the issue temporary.

in mpcVR you can set "adjust frame time..." and the graph will show you the issue.

with madVR is is easier to see that the "desktop" is in a broken state https://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=736 if 10 bit stops working your desktop is in a broken state you can now kill the explorer and it may recover. just to be clear mpcVR recovers the same way. this is on nvidia.

i use SeQThKZBYcI for judder testing.

mpcVR has another issue where when the sync offset reaches the present time it starts to drop or repeat frames for one present interval makes sense it is then flipping between two states for a couple of set resulting in judder.

very easy to test with 23p at 120p or 24p at 119p

[Klaus1189]

mpcVR has another issue where when the sync offset reaches the present time it starts to drop or repeat frames for one present interval makes sense it is then flipping between two states for a couple of set resulting in judder.

very easy to test with 23p at 120p or 24p at 119p

Is this intended:
23.976p @ 120.000 Hz (120 Hz) instead of 119.880 Hz (119 Hz)
24.000p @ 119.880 Hz (119 Hz) instead of 120.000 Hz (120 Hz)

If yes, I never tested this. What do I need to watch to see the issue?

What for 4x:
25.000p on 100.000 Hz (4x)
29.970p on 119.970 Hz (4x)
30.000p on 120.000 Hz (4x)

Is there an issue?

[huhn]

first of all you need a windows desktop that isn't messed up. now just look a the graph with "adjust frame time..." it is easily visible in motion too.

the missmatch is just done to make the error happing more frequently it will also happen with a match but that could takes days to happen and i'm not going to proof that.

should happen with all refreshrates if an audio video sync error happens it is not fixing it it is fying and then fallback to old sync and fixing it again for a while that's the bug in a nut shell.

[Klaus1189]

first of all you need a windows desktop that isn't messed up

OK, first sentence, and I am lost already. How do I know if it is messed up? What is messed up exactly?

[huhn]

that file no... because it doesn't work in general yes that's an old issue on win 11 killing the explorer fixes the issue temporary.

in mpcVR you can set "adjust frame time..." and the graph will show you the issue.

with madVR is is easier to see that the "desktop" is in a broken state https://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=736 if 10 bit stops working your desktop is in a broken state you can now kill the explorer and it may recover. just to be clear mpcVR recovers the same way. this is on nvidia.


microsoft is in a "interesting state these days".

[microchip8]

I will just leave this here: https://www.osnews.com/story/143881/microsoft-admits-almost-all-major-windows-11-core-features-are-broken/

[pirlouy]

@Klaus: in fact you're right, these stuttering issues also occur with other framerates, like 24 or 30 fps. It's just harder for me to notice, and like the problem can be not present sometimes, it's harder to detect, whereas 60 fps on 120 Hz it's easier.

@huhn: I've tried to kill a lot of process, and even without explorer.exe, I still had these stuttering issues (launched mpv via terminal or task manager).
For "adjust frame time..." in mpcVR, it's already enabled, but I did not notice difference in the graph with this setting enabled/disabled.

I did not understand the part with 10 bits and broken state. But just to be sure, I tested with 8 bits, and the problem is still here. So if there's another problem with 10 bits, I'd say I leave it for now !

I don't know how this Seqtk works at all, but if you manage to create sampled to test judder, I'm all ears. I'd love to have 4k HDR judder sample test files.
I've shared these test files in order to use the same video to allow better comparison.

"mpcVR has another issue where when the sync offset reaches the present time": So you meant maybe it's not a bug with Windows but rather in renderers like mpcVR or EVR or mpv ? It would be strange that all renderers are concerned.

And like Klaus, I don't know how to have a "not messed-up" desktop (since for me it's messed up right now with these stuttering issues). And what you find "easily visible in motion", it is not that easy to me.

[pirlouy]

@microchip8: Yes it's just Windows bashing. It might be deserved, but I prefer to investigate and report a well formatted problem, rather than criticize and bring nothing to improve the situation.
I'm quite sure there are also Vsync issues with MacOS, Android, Linux/Wayland etc.

[microchip8]

I'm not bashing on Windows. I personally don't care for it, never have actually. I only wanted to bring to attention that MS *admits* many core things in Windows 11 are just broken. If you have enough knowledge, fix it/them. If not, wait for MS to do it.

[huhn]

@Klaus: in fact you're right, these stuttering issues also occur with other framerates, like 24 or 30 fps. It's just harder for me to notice, and like the problem can be not present sometimes, it's harder to detect, whereas 60 fps on 120 Hz it's easier.

@huhn: I've tried to kill a lot of process, and even without explorer.exe, I still had these stuttering issues (launched mpv via terminal or task manager).
For "adjust frame time..." in mpcVR, it's already enabled, but I did not notice difference in the graph with this setting enabled/disabled.

I did not understand the part with 10 bits and broken state. But just to be sure, I tested with 8 bits, and the problem is still here. So if there's another problem with 10 bits, I'd say I leave it for now !

I don't know how this Seqtk works at all, but if you manage to create sampled to test judder, I'm all ears. I'd love to have 4k HDR judder sample test files.
I've shared these test files in order to use the same video to allow better comparison.

"mpcVR has another issue where when the sync offset reaches the present time": So you meant maybe it's not a bug with Windows but rather in renderers like mpcVR or EVR or mpv ? It would be strange that all renderers are concerned.

And like Klaus, I don't know how to have a "not messed-up" desktop (since for me it's messed up right now with these stuttering issues). And what you find "easily visible in motion", it is not that easy to me.

could be a different issue source that's just the one i encounter all the time as long as madVR can enter 10 bit mode you are not affect by the same issue as i.

[Klaus1189]

If you have enough knowledge, fix it/them.

How ???

[microchip8]

How ???

If you have to ask, then you don't have the knowledge :)

These broken things MS admits can cause all kinds of weird behavior and issues. More and more MS seems to introduce noticeable issues with its updates. I often read every other day, there's some issue introduced here or there by a cumulative MS update...

[Klaus1189]

Then enlighten me :)

[Klaus1189]

As a guy without the knowledge, the only thing I can think of is editing the registry in specific entries.
What is your solution for the issue of the thread, when double refresh rate causes judder when playing, but when refresh rate equals the framerate it is fine?

[clsid]

Madvr has option to present a frame every VSync.

But root cause is probably just the GPU up/downclocking to frequently. Similar issue exists with NVIDIA where high performance mode fixes stutters (because it prevents going into low power state).

[pirlouy]

I've noticed the GPU clock (normal and memory) always changing indeed, but then why 60 fps on 60 Hz is not affected ? Because clock is still changing a lot in this case too.

I've tried performance mode in AMD drivers but no changes. Can someone confirm that nVidia performance mode does not change anything ?

[Klaus1189]

Can someone confirm that nVidia performance mode does not change anything ?

I can confirm that on RTX50 card it doesn't do anything for this issue, for other Nvidia generations maybe others can test it.

[huhn]

this has been reported counless tiems but usually with the clocks going so low that frames are actively dropped.

optimal with making sure the DWM isn't bugged out works flawless here.

present a frame for every vsync is something i haven't disabled and test in forever.

if setting mpc-hc to high performance and works take it.

[pirlouy]

I know you both (clsid & huhn) know a lot and I read several times indeed you advised to use "performance" mode.
But did you really try it and check my test files ? Does it make a difference ?
I think you'll see judder like us because it's an issue with DWM Vsync and it is not linked to driver since we (Klaus and I for now) are able to reproduce it with AMD and nVidia and even in performance mode.

But that's my interpretation as a limited user (opposite of microchip8 :p)

[huhn]

i don't test your file is is literally not playing i use other test files.
i also don't use performance i do not need it i need to kill the explorer to fix my judder/presentation glitch issue.

i didn't test my 9060 xt much in that regard it is not in my HTPC.

[Klaus1189]

What is in your HTPC?

[pirlouy]

@huhn: Files are not playing in any player ? Including mpv ?!! I suspect bad faith ! :p
But no problem, you know I would do anything for you huhn ! As you may have noticed, I'm a bit crazy about judder so I have other test files: I've update my shared linked (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Pf54IJ1N5XH3gS74vchD4pF0JlFRVjzQ?usp=sharing), you'll find a new folder "motionbarsh264" with other test files.

@Klaus and others motivated by test: Could you test the file with mpv again but with this config ?
video-sync=display-vdrop
(hoping you know how to do it, mpv.conf file for example but if you don't know I'll try to explain)
It is supposed to do the same as default video-sync=audio but it looks like with this config I don't have judder at all !!

[clsid]

By using display sync, it now presents a frame every VSync. So it should now also have higher GPU load, similar to playing 120fps video (minus the extra decoding work).

[huhn]

By using display sync, it now presents a frame every VSync. So it should now also have higher GPU load, similar to playing 120fps video (minus the extra decoding work).
it only calls 120 presents not dong any extra work the over head is close to nothing. or 50% of my GPU goes off for the interop...
even on my 360 HZ screen it cost barely anything while madVR insane inefficiency will make a real 360 hz video unplayable just by applying the "final steps".

with that option or not GPU-z shows no load difference what so ever.
@huhn: Files are not playing in any player ? Including mpv ?!! I suspect bad faith ! :p
But no problem, you know I would do anything for you huhn ! As you may have noticed, I'm a bit crazy about judder so I have other test files: I've update my shared linked (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Pf54IJ1N5XH3gS74vchD4pF0JlFRVjzQ?usp=sharing), you'll find a new folder "motionbarsh264" with other test files.

@Klaus and others motivated by test: Could you test the file with mpv again but with this config ?
video-sync=display-vdrop
(hoping you know how to do it, mpv.conf file for example but if you don't know I'll try to explain)
It is supposed to do the same as default video-sync=audio but it looks like with this config I don't have judder at all !!
mpv struggles with that new file with and without video-sync=display-vdrop
i still point my finger at windows.

that's the pattern i use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeQThKZBYcI

perfection by accident for testing judder. you can also just change the frame rate if you want to check other frame rates

[clsid]

mpv docs says that it affects performance because it renders subs for each present (although thats on CPU) so I assumed it might also redo shader processing etc.

Nevertheless, the fact that it presents every VSync has effect on Windows behavior, since it effectively no longer is running at half VSync. It is likely there might be some kind of "optimized" mode in Windows for half VSync or low framerates.

But I wonder why the present every VSync option in Madvr doesn't work. Afaik it is on by default, or haven't you guys tested with stock madvr settings?

Even NVIDIA has released a hotfix for Windows giving crap performance in games after recent update, so there are plenty of bugs in the Windows graphics stack.

[pirlouy]

OK, I though "video-sync=display-vdrop" was just another way of dropping frame without doing GPU extra work, but it seems you're right. This extra works doesn't seem to use much GPU, but it uses 5 watts more (watt meter plug, best way to mesure charge), and nearly as much as using "video-sync=display-resample" with interpolation. So it must "presents a frame every VSync" as you said.

Btw with my new config, I'm a bit disappointed by efficiency. Before, I was able to watch a video with less than 40 watts (i3 + 1060), now it's 60 watts minimum. Not the kind of progress I expected in 5 years but I'm digressing.

@huhn: Your video is OK and indeed it's still possible to change framerate in mpv with "speed= 2.5" or "vf=fps=fps=source_fps*2.5" but visual bars are often a good (better IMO) way to detect judder.

[Klaus1189]

i didn't test my 9060 xt much in that regard it is not in my HTPC.

What is in your HTPC?

Nvidia?

[huhn]

4060

mpv docs says that it affects performance because it renders subs for each present (although thats on CPU) so I assumed it might also redo shader processing etc.

Nevertheless, the fact that it presents every VSync has effect on Windows behavior, since it effectively no longer is running at half VSync. It is likely there might be some kind of "optimized" mode in Windows for half VSync or low framerates.

But I wonder why the present every VSync option in Madvr doesn't work. Afaik it is on by default, or haven't you guys tested with stock madvr settings?

Even NVIDIA has released a hotfix for Windows giving crap performance in games after recent update, so there are plenty of bugs in the Windows graphics stack.

draw a frame every vsync is default now and it seems to be bugged and always on.

in the past you could use the mpc-hc statistic window and with 24 it would show 24 with sm and 24 source 48 and with present every vsync well your vsync. it is currently the vsync.

edit:
it most likely works just fine and mpc-hc can not detect it anymore with the newer stuff it works with d3d9 backbuffer.

[huhn]

new post because i found something new:
https://i.ibb.co/HTF7g5s4/image.png
the ultra jitter stuff is when the windows desktop is broken the straight line is after killing the explorer.
with that stuff going on there is no wonder a glitch will happen.

[pirlouy]

What is the application with this OSD which displays orange graph ?

In my previous tests, I mentionned that even without explorer.exe, I had these stutters. So I'm not sure explorer.exe is the real source of problem but rather DWM.

[huhn]

rivatuner
msi afterburner should install all you need.

it resets the dwm.
if the explorer blindly restarted is does nothing you have to go a couple of folder deep.
the explorer it self shouldn't have any effect in the first place.

[pirlouy]

Some issues I've noticed:

- Sometimes I have audio dropouts (once by movie I'd say), but I also had this in my previous configuration (nVidia), and it was recent, so it lets me think it's a Windows 11 recent problem.

- An issue I didn't have before, so maybe it's a Radeon Driver problem, but I still think it's a Windows 11 problem:

At some point, I'd say after 20 or 50 minutes, I'm starting to have dropping frames. if I enable statistics, I can see that the frequency of TV, instead of being around 23.976 Hz, is below. One time it was at 23,000 Hz for a minute ! Too bad I did not take a screenshot at that moment.
To fix this, you just need to have an interaction with DWM: For example, exiting fullscreen and going back in fullscreen, frequency is back at 23.976Hz.
Another way is if I have a notification from Windows center. Notification appears above movie; During notification I have judder, but that's normal behavior with Windows for years (they offer to hide notifications during fullscreen to hide the problem). But frequency comes back at 23.976 Hz when notification goes away.

Here is a screenshot when we see frequency is way below 23.976 Hz: https://imgur.com/dqRrR6v

Disclaimer: I only have 8 GB of RAM at the moment. Still prayi... waiting for more. But I don't think it's linked since switching fullscreen fixes the problem.

[CruNcher]

@Pirlouy

this

"Another way is if I have a notification from Windows center. Notification appears above movie; During notification I have judder, but that's normal behavior with Windows for years (they offer to hide notifications during fullscreen to hide the problem). But frequency comes back at 23.976 Hz when notification goes away."

it isn't normal it is something Microsoft Promised when they showed their new Graphic Stack in this new wonderful Windows Experience to be fixed forever.

You shouldn't see it happening.

Btw its 20 years *cough**cough*

Me (with schwarzeneger accent): "ahhh we are back in the good old times"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZOu3GkUhYE

Surprises me a bit all the time that ben landed up at Amazon and not at Netflix ;)

Btw Windows 11 Finalizes some of those things set to achieve 20 years ago also successfully

and when everything goes wrong with it IT SUCKS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTpA5jt1g60

When someone tries to rescue the legacy, yes kick those suit/tie asses hard plummer :D

[huhn]

Some issues I've noticed:

- Sometimes I have audio dropouts (once by movie I'd say), but I also had this in my previous configuration (nVidia), and it was recent, so it lets me think it's a Windows 11 recent problem.

- An issue I didn't have before, so maybe it's a Radeon Driver problem, but I still think it's a Windows 11 problem:

At some point, I'd say after 20 or 50 minutes, I'm starting to have dropping frames. if I enable statistics, I can see that the frequency of TV, instead of being around 23.976 Hz, is below. One time it was at 23,000 Hz for a minute ! Too bad I did not take a screenshot at that moment.
To fix this, you just need to have an interaction with DWM: For example, exiting fullscreen and going back in fullscreen, frequency is back at 23.976Hz.
Another way is if I have a notification from Windows center. Notification appears above movie; During notification I have judder, but that's normal behavior with Windows for years (they offer to hide notifications during fullscreen to hide the problem). But frequency comes back at 23.976 Hz when notification goes away.

Here is a screenshot when we see frequency is way below 23.976 Hz: https://imgur.com/dqRrR6v

Disclaimer: I only have 8 GB of RAM at the moment. Still prayi... waiting for more. But I don't think it's linked since switching fullscreen fixes the problem.

try to force disable freesync.

without it it is not possible to change the actual refreshrate on the fly only the composition rate.

my TV is set to 120 and it sometimes goes to 122 (over max...) which will result in massive issues disabling freesync entirely fixed that.

with 8gb ram for the next 4 years you are pretty doomed.

[Klaus1189]

Samsung S95 or what TV?

[huhn]

S90C and yes it can do in theory do 144.

[Klaus1189]

Ok, but for freesync limit is 120 Hz?

[huhn]

no it needs freesync to be active to be able to run at 144 (very odd quirk) there are other technical reason i use 120 instead of 144.

[pirlouy]

I had hopes with this Freesync setting, but unfortunately no, still happening:
https://imgur.com/YinRFHk (below 23 Hz !)

I have a bad feeling that I'll be alone to deal with AMD driver bugs. I had doubts when choosing the Radeon way and they were justified.

[huhn]

ok does this happen with mpcVR?

[pirlouy]

Yes, you just have to wait a random delay (some minutes to 50 minutes):
https://imgur.com/VaXsPsO

[huhn]

good luck hope it spits out nothing.
https://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/dpc_latency_checker.html

[clsid]

Sounds similar to an issue discussed in madvr topic in the past. Composition rate randomly going haywire after x minutes of playback. Wasn't that related to HAGS?

[pirlouy]

I was about to give up and... thanks clsid !
I'll need more time to confirm but it looks like it was this setting ! Now I'll have to read about it. I don't know if it's a bug or if it's expected behavior.

[AuRiMaS666]

This sounds exactly like the HAGS issue that was introduced by 24H2 update in late 2024. Before, even with HAGS on, video playback was fine, but immediately after upgrading issue presented itself in both madVR and MPCVR.

[kirakami]

The only way fix judder on panning shots and slideshow motion in low fps videos currently if you have High Hertz Monitor is using Motion Interpolation.
Try enabling AMD Fluid Motion Frames or Nvidia Smooth Motion.
In MPC-BE, enable Exclusive Fullscreen in MPC Video Renderer.
In MPV, you need to add gpu-context=winvk vo=gpu-next gpu-api=vulkan hwdec=vulkan to mpv.conf and then add mpv.exe to Nvidia App to enable Smooth Motion or to AMD App to enable Fluid Motion Frames.
Same with adding mpc-be64.exe to Nvidia or AMD App.
That's how i fixed it in my case.

[pirlouy]

@AuRiMaS666: Too bad you did not see my thread quicker, it would have helped me finding the cause ! :p
The worst part is that I've tried every settings, including this one, but it looks like I've overlooked it. Now it won't be enabled for the rest of my life !

@kirakami: Just to be clear, when I created this thread, it was to confirm that with Windows 11, if you don't have the video framerate identical to monitor frequency, then you'll have stuttering. Especially visible with half fps.

The issue you describe seems to be the infamous panning shots judder inherent to 24 fps video. And that is not linked at all to Windows 11.
For AMD Fluid motion, I did not hear good stuff about it, but theoretically it should also works with DirectX, no ?
For nVidia solution, I did not know people were using it. I though they used svp for that.

[pirlouy]

Now that you mentioned it, I've read a bit and it appears AMD Fluid motion has just been integrated in mpv.
To test it easily, use latest nightly and just this setting:
vf=amf_frc

Or you can enable/disable it with a shortcut in input.conf for comparison:
F10 vf toggle amf_frc

You'll have soap-opera effect with occasional artefacts inherent to frame generation. Some will like it, some will headbutt their monitor.

https://mpv.io/manual/master/#video-filters-amf-frc

[huhn]

i already recorded smoothmotion.

it is typical nvidia quality:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1arhPLG8QFLKw4qgRCI9034F-LZrmw1mD/view?usp=drive_link

this is 24 to 48 (smoothmotion can't do anything else like you know 24 to 120) in 144 cause judder. so on many system this will create judder not remove it. so every 3 frame is different the quality speaks for it self.

BTW. it needs HAGS like many stuff in the future will.
and nvidia blocked it for mpc-hc and there is a reason for that.

i can do amd trash next if you want.

[pirlouy]

Just to be sure, when we speak of smoothmotion, I tend to think about madVR version (the frame created is "2 frames with blur"), so I prefer to speak of "frame generation" when the frame generated is totally new, calculated between 2 frames around.

With 144 Hz, since it's a matching refresh rate, you should not have judder. But remember with Windows 11, you have to display 144 fps in order not to have judder. Have you tried with mpv and "display-resample" ?
In my case, I've tried with a 165 hz monitor, so no matching refresh rate, but with mpv "display-resample" and mpv interpolation, I don't notice judder.

Here are the parameters I've found on the web for interpolation (I guess it comes from Haasn originally):
video-sync=display-resample
interpolation=yes
tscale=sphinx
tscale-blur=0.6991556596428412

[huhn]

the mpv amd frc documentation is wrong for the moment it said --hwdec=d3d11 >or< --vf-pre=format=d3d11 . it needs hwdec=d3d11va so this took me way to long again to get something simple to work. this is a massive limitation if hardware decoding is necessary!

mpv sells an option like smooth motion it even nick names it the same but it doesn't have it. what you are doing is not the same but more like convertfps in avisynth both technically fix judder so...
i'm testing real frame interpolation here not frame rate mismatch fixes like smoothmotion.

the nvidia test was done using mpcVR which usually just works the nvidia frame interpolation/creation thing or what ever you want to name it is horrifically bad at it's job and doubles the frame rate that why i needed to use 144 HZ because at 120 i would have gotten judder cause not 24 to 120 like even SVP can do for like ever. this is just more and more "AI" slob. i mean you can look at the frames would you really call that frame creation and not mix two frames and mess it up?

the amd thing does exactly the same 24->48 so judder on most setups... on a first view it is just a mess asking for an image stabiliser. cause it is 48 again i have to change refreshrate and setup the recoding software...

i record these things lossless having frame blending in there is very counter productive these video are there to look at the frames individual and to make fun of them because every single frame they produce is trash.


edit: it will not work with madVR because madVR in d3d11 always outputs the display frame rate no matter what so that is doubled.

[pirlouy]

Why would you not use d3d11va on Windows 10/11 ?
It's the default if you use hwdec=auto. Or you don't use hardware decoding at all ? I though it was working well with d3d11va (contrary to DXVA).

I'm aware of mpv SmoothMotion not being the same as madVR (I had an issue closed for this on their tracker), that's why I prefer to keep the term "SmoothMotion" to madVR, and not frame generation, or mpv interpolation or svp etc.

If you use mpcVR, you will have the judder explained at the beginning of this thread. You need to present a frame for each Vsync, that's not what mpcVR does.
In you recently uploaded video, I noticed the judder, but if I play your original video, with mpv and display-resample, even if it's not madVR smoothmotion, I have a frame for each Vsync and then I don't notice judder.

Not to say AMD FRC is good, because on judder test videos, there are plenty of artefacts, but for those who like soap-opera effect, I'm not sure they will complain about such artefacts.

[v0lt]

You need to present a frame for each Vsync, that's not what mpcVR does.
And when the renderer drops Vsync, you see black frames? :eek:

IMHO, you are writing nonsense.

[pirlouy]

I'm sure you're right and I am writing nonsense. I have limited vocabulary and my knowledge is far from yours.

But despite this, I know that I have judder with mpcVR because the "framerate presented" is the one from the video (60 fps for example), whereas with mpv for the same video it will be 120 fps (with display-resample option), if the monitor is in 120 Hz.

And Windows handles 60 fps on 120 Hz badly. It was what I was trying to understand at the beginning of this thread.

[huhn]

And when the renderer drops Vsync, you see black frames? :eek:

IMHO, you are writing nonsense.

not what he meant and that's sadly an issue with "mpcVR".

if you are not presenting a frame for every vsync windows 11 MAY present them out of order creating judder in the process. this is a windows bug not an mpcVR bug but as usually software has to fix that.

if i have a very accurate frame rate match mpcVR works flawless on my system with vblank setting at 120 HZ. with a slight difference you already read the issue and no changing that setting isn't going to fix that.

for madVR to avoid these issues we literally starting to do very wired stuff... it turns into a religion at this point everything to please the windows 11 DWM devil.

Why would you not use d3d11va on Windows 10/11 ?
It's the default if you use hwdec=auto. Or you don't use hardware decoding at all ? I though it was working well with d3d11va (contrary to DXVA).

I'm aware of mpv SmoothMotion not being the same as madVR (I had an issue closed for this on their tracker), that's why I prefer to keep the term "SmoothMotion" to madVR, and not frame generation, or mpv interpolation or svp etc.

If you use mpcVR, you will have the judder explained at the beginning of this thread. You need to present a frame for each Vsync, that's not what mpcVR does.
In you recently uploaded video, I noticed the judder, but if I play your original video, with mpv and display-resample, even if it's not madVR smoothmotion, I have a frame for each Vsync and then I don't notice judder.

Not to say AMD FRC is good, because on judder test videos, there are plenty of artefacts, but for those who like soap-opera effect, I'm not sure they will complain about such artefacts.

the problem is mpv is made to fail as hard as possible.
i couldn't make worse default setting if i wanted to.

if a file tells mpv i'm interlaced it will be default ignore that.
if you play a file hardware decoder are ignored by default.

i used a blank config in the hope nothing breaks and well as usually it breaks and follow the error messages to debug you are still doomed.

mpv is that utterly terrible it can not do a grey scale correctly and a bug report will just be close while hassn already confirmed that there is an color issue of some kind... this is then ignored for so long until the ticket creator gives up...
maybe they fixed that... i doubt that.

they up to this day use a buffered key to open the info screen making the next thing you type wrong. let me make you an example i open the debug console now`and that's the result a random `in the next place you type. having this as default behaviour forever breaks me...you can write an è (which result in a mess cause the forum can not handle it that'S an e with ` on top) have fun debugging ffmpeg with that in there. how often did i add that after checking the config and immediately fixing it.

mpcVR does all of this correctly out of the box.
it doesn't ignore interlace flags and it can also place Chroma correctly unlike madVR.

here is an video of AMD FRC took me over an hour cause OBS is bugged followed by ffmpeg with a similar bug and a bug in x264.

obs is currently bugged again to use normal x264 when you select libx264rgb and ignores colormatrix=gbr
so i had to reencode it get that back in there.
ffmpeg told me colormatrix is not an argument and so is fullrange on

so x264 it is which also told me fullrange is not an argument
--fullrange <string> Specify full range samples setting ["off"]
- off, on
you too my bro so x264.exe --output chargerrgb.mkv --colormatrix GBR --range PC --crf 0 --preset placebo --output-csp i444 "2026-01-06 10-29-42.mkv" to get the RGB flag in there... which obviously is GBR what else...

because obs had to ignore colormatrix plus the RGB encoder and encode RGB as yuv444p as you do...

FUN

here you go:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WWiMKnDSn23KQRzjaIt8zXF5mTD5FYID/view?usp=sharing

yes it is short because i recorded many many GB until i gave up on obs doing it correctly and fixing it in post.

[pirlouy]

Ah, default mpv options, it is a complicated subject.
https://mpv.io/manual/master/#options-hwdec
Hardware decoding is not enabled by default, to keep the out-of-the-box configuration as reliable as possible
There is also a big paragraph to explain some risks (a bit lower in the doc):
If you run into any weird decoding issues, frame glitches or discoloration, and you have --hwdec turned on, the first thing you should try is disabling it.

For deinterlacing, another complex subject.
How to choose between software or hardware decoding ?
https://mpv.io/manual/master/#options-deinterlace
Because of false positive, they chose not to enable software deinterlacing. But that's good for those with decent GPU, they can use hardware deinterlacing instead. Also as you pointed out in the past, you are not convinced by GPU deinterlacing solution.
So it is a user choice to enable it, by software or hardware.

By default, I don't enable it, I prefer to use a hotkey instead (hardware decoding):
t vf toggle "d3d11vpp=deint=yes:interlaced-only=yes"

For chroma misalignment, fortunately, it is not something I can perceive (or understand).

And for your final video, I don't see that much judder. At least, I don't see it like I was noticing it with your nVidia video.

[huhn]

Ah, default mpv options, it is a complicated subject.
https://mpv.io/manual/master/#options-hwdec[quote]
just nonesense hardware decoding is sued everywhere by default there reasoning is outdated at best. they also have fallback if it fails so...

[QUOTE]For deinterlacing, another complex subject.
How to choose between software or hardware decoding ?
https://mpv.io/manual/master/#options-deinterlace
Because of false positive, they chose not to enable software deinterlacing. But that's good for those with decent GPU, they can use hardware deinterlacing instead. Also as you pointed out in the past, you are not convinced by GPU deinterlacing solution.
So it is a user choice to enable it, by software or hardware.

it is not complicated at all they just made it complicated.
if a file says it is interlaced you deinterlace. what deinterlacer is used is not important here cause interlaced content isn't watchable without deint the option should be to disable it not to enable. like any settop box any TV any other video player anything.

lavfilter/mpc internal code have this mastered for decades.
if you give lavfilter a soft tleecien DVD it will output progressive if you use a hardware decoder that decoder may turn that to hard telecine likely the spec defines.
By default, I don't enable it, I prefer to use a hotkey instead (hardware decoding):
t vf toggle "d3d11vpp=deint=yes:interlaced-only=yes"
then this AMD FRC will not work and be disabled at start up.

i also have no problem that you can disable that. my problem was it that OR while it is clearly needed. i was literally looking for newer GPU driver...
And for your final video, I don't see that much judder. At least, I don't see it like I was noticing it with your nVidia video.

yeah they are quite different the palms a flickering like crazy in the AMD case and the nvidia case is just terrible all around there is nothing good to say about it it is clearly not made for that.