Windows 11 stuttering ?

[pirlouy]

Testing my new 9060 XT, I encountered a strange problem, I though it was a AMD driver but after more tests, I think I managed to reproduce it with my Geforce 1060. So I think it's a Windows 11 bug.
Any volunteers to do some tests for me ?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Pf54IJ1N5XH3gS74vchD4pF0JlFRVjzQ?usp=sharing
- Download the 60 fps test file
- Set your monitor frequency at 120 Hz (be sure not to have "Dynamic refresh rate" setting enabled, it would use your monitor in 60 Hz mode, meh...)
- Close every windows (especially browsers)
- If possible, test with mpv (no config, or your config, but don't use resample setting).
(You can use mpcVR, it's reproducible, but less frequently)

-> Play the 60 Fps file on 120 Hz monitor. Avoid seeking the file (I reported an issue with MPC-BE, so I think the file is not well encoded).
You should see judder (especially the higher bar) !
If not, close the file and try again several times, it should happen at one point.

The same file with 60 Hz monitor should play fine.
You can also reproduce this with 50 fps on 100 Hz frequency, and even 30 fps on 60 Hz.

I hope for my peace of mind that you can reproduce. It looks like Windows vSync (DWM ?) does not manage well these cases (half-frequency framerate).
I've tried several things in Windows and AMD drivers settings, without success: FSE on, HAGS off, Game Mode off.

[ahsansahab]

f your Windows 11 is stuttering, don’t worry — it happens!
Usually it’s just something small causing the system to slow down. Try these quick fixes:

Restart your PC — honestly, this alone fixes a lot.

Close heavy apps running in the background (like games,Chrome with many tabs, etc.).

Update Windows & drivers — outdated drivers often cause stutters.

Check for overheating — if your laptop feels very hot, it can start lagging.

Disable unnecessary startup apps so your system loads lighter.

Turn off animations: Settings > Accessibility > Visual effects > turn off Animation effects.

If the stuttering stays, it might be something deeper like a weak hard drive or a background process using too much CPU, but most of the time the steps above solve it قطار الحرمين السريع (https://haramaintrainsa.net/).

[huhn]

you can try to disable MPO if you have freesync support disable it for a test.

i have an issue with nvidia here it sometimes uses 122 for a split sec even through the screen is set to 120 (in theory the TV can do 144)

[Klaus1189]

I can confirm the issue, without even testing with your testfile. I encountered the same issue on my own.
What is HALG?

[pirlouy]

@huhn: FWIR, it is not possible to disable MPO with Windows 11 recent versions.
But did you reproduce the stuttering issue with 60 fps file on 120 Hz ?

@Klaus: Thanks for the confirmation. I guess handling Vsync must me really complicated and Microsoft did not manage to handle it.
Too bad, in the past, you could disable the entire thing (with Windows 7, disabling Desktop Composition service).

Sorry I meant HAGS that you must know (forgot to change the abbreviation before to publish): Hardware-Accelerated GPU Scheduling (in Settings > System > Display > Graphics).

[Klaus1189]

OK, since I did not do test to this time, do you "only" have issue with these double refreshrates:
25.000p on 50.000 Hz (2x)
29.970p on 59.940 Hz (2x)
30.000p on 60.000 Hz (2x)
50.000p on 100.000 Hz (2x)
59.940p on 119.880 Hz (2x)
60.000p on 120.000 Hz (2x)

Do you have issue playing these:
23.976p on 119.880 Hz (5x)
24.000p on 120.000 Hz (5x)
25.000p on 100.000 Hz (4x)
29.970p on 119.970 Hz (4x)
30.000p on 120.000 Hz (4x)

I use RTX50 card btw.

[huhn]

that file no... because it doesn't work in general yes that's an old issue on win 11 killing the explorer fixes the issue temporary.

in mpcVR you can set "adjust frame time..." and the graph will show you the issue.

with madVR is is easier to see that the "desktop" is in a broken state https://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=736 if 10 bit stops working your desktop is in a broken state you can now kill the explorer and it may recover. just to be clear mpcVR recovers the same way. this is on nvidia.

i use SeQThKZBYcI for judder testing.

mpcVR has another issue where when the sync offset reaches the present time it starts to drop or repeat frames for one present interval makes sense it is then flipping between two states for a couple of set resulting in judder.

very easy to test with 23p at 120p or 24p at 119p

[Klaus1189]

mpcVR has another issue where when the sync offset reaches the present time it starts to drop or repeat frames for one present interval makes sense it is then flipping between two states for a couple of set resulting in judder.

very easy to test with 23p at 120p or 24p at 119p

Is this intended:
23.976p @ 120.000 Hz (120 Hz) instead of 119.880 Hz (119 Hz)
24.000p @ 119.880 Hz (119 Hz) instead of 120.000 Hz (120 Hz)

If yes, I never tested this. What do I need to watch to see the issue?

What for 4x:
25.000p on 100.000 Hz (4x)
29.970p on 119.970 Hz (4x)
30.000p on 120.000 Hz (4x)

Is there an issue?

[huhn]

first of all you need a windows desktop that isn't messed up. now just look a the graph with "adjust frame time..." it is easily visible in motion too.

the missmatch is just done to make the error happing more frequently it will also happen with a match but that could takes days to happen and i'm not going to proof that.

should happen with all refreshrates if an audio video sync error happens it is not fixing it it is fying and then fallback to old sync and fixing it again for a while that's the bug in a nut shell.

[Klaus1189]

first of all you need a windows desktop that isn't messed up

OK, first sentence, and I am lost already. How do I know if it is messed up? What is messed up exactly?

[huhn]

that file no... because it doesn't work in general yes that's an old issue on win 11 killing the explorer fixes the issue temporary.

in mpcVR you can set "adjust frame time..." and the graph will show you the issue.

with madVR is is easier to see that the "desktop" is in a broken state https://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=736 if 10 bit stops working your desktop is in a broken state you can now kill the explorer and it may recover. just to be clear mpcVR recovers the same way. this is on nvidia.


microsoft is in a "interesting state these days".

[microchip8]

I will just leave this here: https://www.osnews.com/story/143881/microsoft-admits-almost-all-major-windows-11-core-features-are-broken/

[pirlouy]

@Klaus: in fact you're right, these stuttering issues also occur with other framerates, like 24 or 30 fps. It's just harder for me to notice, and like the problem can be not present sometimes, it's harder to detect, whereas 60 fps on 120 Hz it's easier.

@huhn: I've tried to kill a lot of process, and even without explorer.exe, I still had these stuttering issues (launched mpv via terminal or task manager).
For "adjust frame time..." in mpcVR, it's already enabled, but I did not notice difference in the graph with this setting enabled/disabled.

I did not understand the part with 10 bits and broken state. But just to be sure, I tested with 8 bits, and the problem is still here. So if there's another problem with 10 bits, I'd say I leave it for now !

I don't know how this Seqtk works at all, but if you manage to create sampled to test judder, I'm all ears. I'd love to have 4k HDR judder sample test files.
I've shared these test files in order to use the same video to allow better comparison.

"mpcVR has another issue where when the sync offset reaches the present time": So you meant maybe it's not a bug with Windows but rather in renderers like mpcVR or EVR or mpv ? It would be strange that all renderers are concerned.

And like Klaus, I don't know how to have a "not messed-up" desktop (since for me it's messed up right now with these stuttering issues). And what you find "easily visible in motion", it is not that easy to me.

[pirlouy]

@microchip8: Yes it's just Windows bashing. It might be deserved, but I prefer to investigate and report a well formatted problem, rather than criticize and bring nothing to improve the situation.
I'm quite sure there are also Vsync issues with MacOS, Android, Linux/Wayland etc.

[microchip8]

I'm not bashing on Windows. I personally don't care for it, never have actually. I only wanted to bring to attention that MS *admits* many core things in Windows 11 are just broken. If you have enough knowledge, fix it/them. If not, wait for MS to do it.

[huhn]

@Klaus: in fact you're right, these stuttering issues also occur with other framerates, like 24 or 30 fps. It's just harder for me to notice, and like the problem can be not present sometimes, it's harder to detect, whereas 60 fps on 120 Hz it's easier.

@huhn: I've tried to kill a lot of process, and even without explorer.exe, I still had these stuttering issues (launched mpv via terminal or task manager).
For "adjust frame time..." in mpcVR, it's already enabled, but I did not notice difference in the graph with this setting enabled/disabled.

I did not understand the part with 10 bits and broken state. But just to be sure, I tested with 8 bits, and the problem is still here. So if there's another problem with 10 bits, I'd say I leave it for now !

I don't know how this Seqtk works at all, but if you manage to create sampled to test judder, I'm all ears. I'd love to have 4k HDR judder sample test files.
I've shared these test files in order to use the same video to allow better comparison.

"mpcVR has another issue where when the sync offset reaches the present time": So you meant maybe it's not a bug with Windows but rather in renderers like mpcVR or EVR or mpv ? It would be strange that all renderers are concerned.

And like Klaus, I don't know how to have a "not messed-up" desktop (since for me it's messed up right now with these stuttering issues). And what you find "easily visible in motion", it is not that easy to me.

could be a different issue source that's just the one i encounter all the time as long as madVR can enter 10 bit mode you are not affect by the same issue as i.

[Klaus1189]

If you have enough knowledge, fix it/them.

How ???

[microchip8]

How ???

If you have to ask, then you don't have the knowledge :)

These broken things MS admits can cause all kinds of weird behavior and issues. More and more MS seems to introduce noticeable issues with its updates. I often read every other day, there's some issue introduced here or there by a cumulative MS update...

[Klaus1189]

Then enlighten me :)

[Klaus1189]

As a guy without the knowledge, the only thing I can think of is editing the registry in specific entries.
What is your solution for the issue of the thread, when double refresh rate causes judder when playing, but when refresh rate equals the framerate it is fine?

[clsid]

Madvr has option to present a frame every VSync.

But root cause is probably just the GPU up/downclocking to frequently. Similar issue exists with NVIDIA where high performance mode fixes stutters (because it prevents going into low power state).

[pirlouy]

I've noticed the GPU clock (normal and memory) always changing indeed, but then why 60 fps on 60 Hz is not affected ? Because clock is still changing a lot in this case too.

I've tried performance mode in AMD drivers but no changes. Can someone confirm that nVidia performance mode does not change anything ?

[Klaus1189]

Can someone confirm that nVidia performance mode does not change anything ?

I can confirm that on RTX50 card it doesn't do anything for this issue, for other Nvidia generations maybe others can test it.

[huhn]

this has been reported counless tiems but usually with the clocks going so low that frames are actively dropped.

optimal with making sure the DWM isn't bugged out works flawless here.

present a frame for every vsync is something i haven't disabled and test in forever.

if setting mpc-hc to high performance and works take it.

[pirlouy]

I know you both (clsid & huhn) know a lot and I read several times indeed you advised to use "performance" mode.
But did you really try it and check my test files ? Does it make a difference ?
I think you'll see judder like us because it's an issue with DWM Vsync and it is not linked to driver since we (Klaus and I for now) are able to reproduce it with AMD and nVidia and even in performance mode.

But that's my interpretation as a limited user (opposite of microchip8 :p)

[huhn]

i don't test your file is is literally not playing i use other test files.
i also don't use performance i do not need it i need to kill the explorer to fix my judder/presentation glitch issue.

i didn't test my 9060 xt much in that regard it is not in my HTPC.

[Klaus1189]

What is in your HTPC?

[pirlouy]

@huhn: Files are not playing in any player ? Including mpv ?!! I suspect bad faith ! :p
But no problem, you know I would do anything for you huhn ! As you may have noticed, I'm a bit crazy about judder so I have other test files: I've update my shared linked (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Pf54IJ1N5XH3gS74vchD4pF0JlFRVjzQ?usp=sharing), you'll find a new folder "motionbarsh264" with other test files.

@Klaus and others motivated by test: Could you test the file with mpv again but with this config ?
video-sync=display-vdrop
(hoping you know how to do it, mpv.conf file for example but if you don't know I'll try to explain)
It is supposed to do the same as default video-sync=audio but it looks like with this config I don't have judder at all !!

[clsid]

By using display sync, it now presents a frame every VSync. So it should now also have higher GPU load, similar to playing 120fps video (minus the extra decoding work).

[huhn]

By using display sync, it now presents a frame every VSync. So it should now also have higher GPU load, similar to playing 120fps video (minus the extra decoding work).
it only calls 120 presents not dong any extra work the over head is close to nothing. or 50% of my GPU goes off for the interop...
even on my 360 HZ screen it cost barely anything while madVR insane inefficiency will make a real 360 hz video unplayable just by applying the "final steps".

with that option or not GPU-z shows no load difference what so ever.
@huhn: Files are not playing in any player ? Including mpv ?!! I suspect bad faith ! :p
But no problem, you know I would do anything for you huhn ! As you may have noticed, I'm a bit crazy about judder so I have other test files: I've update my shared linked (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Pf54IJ1N5XH3gS74vchD4pF0JlFRVjzQ?usp=sharing), you'll find a new folder "motionbarsh264" with other test files.

@Klaus and others motivated by test: Could you test the file with mpv again but with this config ?
video-sync=display-vdrop
(hoping you know how to do it, mpv.conf file for example but if you don't know I'll try to explain)
It is supposed to do the same as default video-sync=audio but it looks like with this config I don't have judder at all !!
mpv struggles with that new file with and without video-sync=display-vdrop
i still point my finger at windows.

that's the pattern i use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeQThKZBYcI

perfection by accident for testing judder. you can also just change the frame rate if you want to check other frame rates

[clsid]

mpv docs says that it affects performance because it renders subs for each present (although thats on CPU) so I assumed it might also redo shader processing etc.

Nevertheless, the fact that it presents every VSync has effect on Windows behavior, since it effectively no longer is running at half VSync. It is likely there might be some kind of "optimized" mode in Windows for half VSync or low framerates.

But I wonder why the present every VSync option in Madvr doesn't work. Afaik it is on by default, or haven't you guys tested with stock madvr settings?

Even NVIDIA has released a hotfix for Windows giving crap performance in games after recent update, so there are plenty of bugs in the Windows graphics stack.

[pirlouy]

OK, I though "video-sync=display-vdrop" was just another way of dropping frame without doing GPU extra work, but it seems you're right. This extra works doesn't seem to use much GPU, but it uses 5 watts more (watt meter plug, best way to mesure charge), and nearly as much as using "video-sync=display-resample" with interpolation. So it must "presents a frame every VSync" as you said.

Btw with my new config, I'm a bit disappointed by efficiency. Before, I was able to watch a video with less than 40 watts (i3 + 1060), now it's 60 watts minimum. Not the kind of progress I expected in 5 years but I'm digressing.

@huhn: Your video is OK and indeed it's still possible to change framerate in mpv with "speed= 2.5" or "vf=fps=fps=source_fps*2.5" but visual bars are often a good (better IMO) way to detect judder.

[Klaus1189]

i didn't test my 9060 xt much in that regard it is not in my HTPC.

What is in your HTPC?

Nvidia?

[huhn]

4060

mpv docs says that it affects performance because it renders subs for each present (although thats on CPU) so I assumed it might also redo shader processing etc.

Nevertheless, the fact that it presents every VSync has effect on Windows behavior, since it effectively no longer is running at half VSync. It is likely there might be some kind of "optimized" mode in Windows for half VSync or low framerates.

But I wonder why the present every VSync option in Madvr doesn't work. Afaik it is on by default, or haven't you guys tested with stock madvr settings?

Even NVIDIA has released a hotfix for Windows giving crap performance in games after recent update, so there are plenty of bugs in the Windows graphics stack.

draw a frame every vsync is default now and it seems to be bugged and always on.

in the past you could use the mpc-hc statistic window and with 24 it would show 24 with sm and 24 source 48 and with present every vsync well your vsync. it is currently the vsync.

edit:
it most likely works just fine and mpc-hc can not detect it anymore with the newer stuff it works with d3d9 backbuffer.

[huhn]

new post because i found something new:
https://i.ibb.co/HTF7g5s4/image.png
the ultra jitter stuff is when the windows desktop is broken the straight line is after killing the explorer.
with that stuff going on there is no wonder a glitch will happen.

[pirlouy]

What is the application with this OSD which displays orange graph ?

In my previous tests, I mentionned that even without explorer.exe, I had these stutters. So I'm not sure explorer.exe is the real source of problem but rather DWM.

[huhn]

rivatuner
msi afterburner should install all you need.

it resets the dwm.
if the explorer blindly restarted is does nothing you have to go a couple of folder deep.
the explorer it self shouldn't have any effect in the first place.

[pirlouy]

Some issues I've noticed:

- Sometimes I have audio dropouts (once by movie I'd say), but I also had this in my previous configuration (nVidia), and it was recent, so it lets me think it's a Windows 11 recent problem.

- An issue I didn't have before, so maybe it's a Radeon Driver problem, but I still think it's a Windows 11 problem:

At some point, I'd say after 20 or 50 minutes, I'm starting to have dropping frames. if I enable statistics, I can see that the frequency of TV, instead of being around 23.976 Hz, is below. One time it was at 23,000 Hz for a minute ! Too bad I did not take a screenshot at that moment.
To fix this, you just need to have an interaction with DWM: For example, exiting fullscreen and going back in fullscreen, frequency is back at 23.976Hz.
Another way is if I have a notification from Windows center. Notification appears above movie; During notification I have judder, but that's normal behavior with Windows for years (they offer to hide notifications during fullscreen to hide the problem). But frequency comes back at 23.976 Hz when notification goes away.

Here is a screenshot when we see frequency is way below 23.976 Hz: https://imgur.com/dqRrR6v

Disclaimer: I only have 8 GB of RAM at the moment. Still prayi... waiting for more. But I don't think it's linked since switching fullscreen fixes the problem.

[CruNcher]

@Pirlouy

this

"Another way is if I have a notification from Windows center. Notification appears above movie; During notification I have judder, but that's normal behavior with Windows for years (they offer to hide notifications during fullscreen to hide the problem). But frequency comes back at 23.976 Hz when notification goes away."

it isn't normal it is something Microsoft Promised when they showed their new Graphic Stack in this new wonderful Windows Experience to be fixed forever.

You shouldn't see it happening.

Btw its 20 years *cough**cough*

Me (with schwarzeneger accent): "ahhh we are back in the good old times"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZOu3GkUhYE

Surprises me a bit all the time that ben landed up at Amazon and not at Netflix ;)

Btw Windows 11 Finalizes some of those things set to achieve 20 years ago also successfully

and when everything goes wrong with it IT SUCKS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTpA5jt1g60

When someone tries to rescue the legacy, yes kick those suit/tie asses hard plummer :D

[huhn]

Some issues I've noticed:

- Sometimes I have audio dropouts (once by movie I'd say), but I also had this in my previous configuration (nVidia), and it was recent, so it lets me think it's a Windows 11 recent problem.

- An issue I didn't have before, so maybe it's a Radeon Driver problem, but I still think it's a Windows 11 problem:

At some point, I'd say after 20 or 50 minutes, I'm starting to have dropping frames. if I enable statistics, I can see that the frequency of TV, instead of being around 23.976 Hz, is below. One time it was at 23,000 Hz for a minute ! Too bad I did not take a screenshot at that moment.
To fix this, you just need to have an interaction with DWM: For example, exiting fullscreen and going back in fullscreen, frequency is back at 23.976Hz.
Another way is if I have a notification from Windows center. Notification appears above movie; During notification I have judder, but that's normal behavior with Windows for years (they offer to hide notifications during fullscreen to hide the problem). But frequency comes back at 23.976 Hz when notification goes away.

Here is a screenshot when we see frequency is way below 23.976 Hz: https://imgur.com/dqRrR6v

Disclaimer: I only have 8 GB of RAM at the moment. Still prayi... waiting for more. But I don't think it's linked since switching fullscreen fixes the problem.

try to force disable freesync.

without it it is not possible to change the actual refreshrate on the fly only the composition rate.

my TV is set to 120 and it sometimes goes to 122 (over max...) which will result in massive issues disabling freesync entirely fixed that.

with 8gb ram for the next 4 years you are pretty doomed.

[Klaus1189]

Samsung S95 or what TV?

[huhn]

S90C and yes it can do in theory do 144.

[Klaus1189]

Ok, but for freesync limit is 120 Hz?

[huhn]

no it needs freesync to be active to be able to run at 144 (very odd quirk) there are other technical reason i use 120 instead of 144.

[pirlouy]

I had hopes with this Freesync setting, but unfortunately no, still happening:
https://imgur.com/YinRFHk (below 23 Hz !)

I have a bad feeling that I'll be alone to deal with AMD driver bugs. I had doubts when choosing the Radeon way and they were justified.

[huhn]

ok does this happen with mpcVR?

[pirlouy]

Yes, you just have to wait a random delay (some minutes to 50 minutes):
https://imgur.com/VaXsPsO

[huhn]

good luck hope it spits out nothing.
https://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/dpc_latency_checker.html

[clsid]

Sounds similar to an issue discussed in madvr topic in the past. Composition rate randomly going haywire after x minutes of playback. Wasn't that related to HAGS?

[pirlouy]

I was about to give up and... thanks clsid !
I'll need more time to confirm but it looks like it was this setting ! Now I'll have to read about it. I don't know if it's a bug or if it's expected behavior.