Trying Windows 11

[GeoffreyA]

The other day, I upgraded my Windows 10 installation of six years to 11, though I have tested it in the past. Well, it was an inconsistent, ugly experience, and the right-click menu made no sense, calling for another click to reach the classic one. No doubt, this can be mended with a trip to the Registry Editor, but the first impression is a lasting impression.

Here and there are bits and pieces of good design. Settings is an improvement on 10, and Explorer's toolbar is reminiscent of XP, throwing away the malevolent Ribbon to Hades. But touches like these can't make up for failings elsewhere.

It was sluggish on Zen 2. Task Manager takes a while to open, and Explorer's tabs show as white till they're drawn. What sort of programming practices are being used behind the scenes? As for the garish colour changes to the icons, I think they're a step down from the understated palette inherited from 7. Along with that, they've saturated the colours elsewhere, such as in Task Manager, leading to a worse aesthetic. No matter, taskbar buttons now carry progress bars that can scarcely be seen, and début a puzzling paradigm of grouping. Even Notepad's tabs are rather confusing than helpful.

As I used the OS over the course of a day, I got the impression of a disjointed user experience, and that Microsoft had no vision and didn't know what they were doing. It takes more steps to get things done and is slowed down by sluggish code. How is it that one OS upgrade flushes years of CPU and GPU improvement down the toilet? I am struck by the similarity to the ill-fated ME, which came with user-interface "improvements" and a bag of problems. Luckily, XP was in the works. What will save Windows this time?

Tired of the pervasive ugliness, both aesthetic and functional, I formatted and installed a fresh copy of Windows 10 Pro 22H2; indeed, it was an ISO two days' old, so largely up to date. When I reached the desktop, I breathed a sigh of relief, being greeted by sense and sensibility; there was even a nice wallpaper of an ocean from the new ISO. It was good to be back home after touring the strange lands of Windows 11.

https://imgur.com/a/6fN2HMr

As a final note, support for Windows 10 ends in October. For those who would like to continue with it, one could install Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC 2021, which is supported till 2032, or enable ESU with cough, cough. I haven't tried the latter but that will be my likely course of action (sanded down with OpenShell (https://github.com/Open-Shell/Open-Shell-Menu), ShutUp10++ (https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10), and AppBuster (https://www.oo-software.com/en/ooappbuster)). Hopefully, Windows 12 will turn a new leaf. If not, many of us will be driven to Linux in the future.

[microchip8]

I don't know why skilled people put up with Windows for so long. There are much better alternatives, faster and more secure, and where the UI makes sense. Just invest some time to learn it. Windows is for the sheep, for the unskilled masses. It has been steadily going down and getting worse over the years but people keep putting up with it.

[GeoffreyA]

I agree that Windows is a sinking ship, and there is no hope in sight. The foundation is solid, but it's the rubbish on top, driven by marketing, incompetence, and what they rather than users want.

It is tiring, and I'm fed up, but many of us are used to Windows, usually from childhood, and migrating to another OS's grammar is as disagreeable as it would be to Linux or MacOS users. If things don't improve, we will be pushed in that direction, to OSes like Mint.

[microchip8]

Unfortunately, you don't directly deal with the foundation. You deal with that crap on top on a daily basis. That said, MS has shifted in recent years to services/clouds/ads and Windows is becoming less and less relevant for them. It's not where the big bucks are and they earn "pennies" from Windows. Last I checked, MS is a trillion-worth company and that money isn't coming from Windows or Office. I think Windows had its time...

As for me, I have an unusual start with computers. I started back in 2000 and my very first OS was Linux instead of like the majority who start with Windows because that's what comes with PCs. So I never really got hooked on Windows luckily, and seeing how presently MS is breaching user privacy, tracking them, collecting their data, spamming all corners of Windows with ads, etc, I'm glad I never really used it much (I don't think I have a full year combined Windows usage in those 25 years).

[StainlessS]

You can always dual boot with Mint, easy to set up.

However, as initial Mint setup, it always auto boots to Mint on timeout.
I like it to boot to same OS as previously selected, so.
At command prompt.

sudo nano /etc/default/grub

Add or edit these lines: (edit first line, add 2nd if not already there but at end of "GRUB_DEFAULT=saved" block of lines)
GRUB_DEFAULT=saved
GRUB_SAVEDEFAULT=true

(NOTE... above is case sensitive, saved and true should be lower case.)

Then, Ctrl-s to save changes, and ctrl-x to exit.
and,

sudo update-grub

https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=310374

[GeoffreyA]

Unfortunately, you don't directly deal with the foundation. You deal with that crap on top on a daily basis. That said, MS has shifted in recent years to services/clouds/ads and Windows is becoming less and less relevant for them. It's not where the big bucks are and they earn "pennies" from Windows. Last I checked, MS is a trillion-worth company and that money isn't coming from Windows or Office. I think Windows had its time...

As for me, I have an unusual start with computers. I started back in 2000 and my very first OS was Linux instead of like the majority who start with Windows because that's what comes with PCs. So I never really got hooked on Windows luckily, and seeing how presently MS is breaching user privacy, tracking them, collecting their data, spamming all corners of Windows with ads, etc, I'm glad I never really used it much (I don't think I have a full year combined Windows usage in those 25 years).

It's a mess. Their big money is coming from Azure and Office, so Windows grows less important. I'd like to hope it would be open sourced one day; that might be the only way it's saved.

You're lucky that you started off on Linux. Well, I began in 1999 on Windows 98 SE running on a Pentium 166, but spent the most years, 14, on XP. Back then, computers were exciting; I remember getting butterflies whenever I installed Windows 98 because even the setups had go. The 9x CDs came with trial versions, for example, Age of Empires, and Plus! brought colourful themes. What a whimsical era. How far things have fallen.

You can always dual boot with Mint, easy to set up.

However, as initial Mint setup, it always auto boots to Mint on timeout.
I like it to boot to same OS as previously selected, so.
At command prompt.

sudo nano /etc/default/grub

Add or edit these lines: (edit first line, add 2nd if not already there but at end of "GRUB_DEFAULT=saved" block of lines)
GRUB_DEFAULT=saved
GRUB_SAVEDEFAULT=true

(NOTE... above is case sensitive, saved and true should be lower case.)

Then, Ctrl-s to save changes, and ctrl-x to exit.
and,

sudo update-grub

https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=310374


Thanks for the tip, Stainless. You're right: it might be better to dual boot rather than migrating entirely. I tried Mint a couple of months ago and thought it was polished and similar to Windows. For now, I'm happy with W10, and ESU should give it life for another three years.

[StainlessS]

You will (I think) get Windows Defender and .NET [ie non W10] updates, even when W10 updates stop.
(same as with XP I think)

I use Comodo Internet Security [free ver$] and will I think be happy-ish to survive without
W10 or defender updates, I'll get the .NET ones on occasion though.

Cant see me going with W11 at all. [at least not without an awful lot of hacks].

EDIT: You could use Mint for internet access, and just kill your own access to internet for W10.

EDIT: I saw somewhere that on W11, if you have eg "Open Shell Menu" or similar (GUI hack)
installed, then you will have W11 updates disabled, unless uninstalled.

[TR-9970X]

I have ONLY used Windows, since I was introduced to PC's back in the early '90's, at work.

Started with 3.1, then onward and "upward" to W11 24H2.

My main encoding app ONLY runs on Windows (although some may be able to change that),
I have no issues with my setup's, so until Windows (or me) aren't around anymore, I'll stick with it.

[GeoffreyA]

You will (I think) get Windows Defender and .NET [ie non W10] updates, even when W10 updates stop.
(same as with XP I think)

I use Comodo Internet Security [free ver$] and will I think be happy-ish to survive without
W10 or defender updates, I'll get the .NET ones on occasion though.

Cant see me going with W11 at all. [at least not without an awful lot of hacks].

EDIT: You could use Mint for internet access, and just kill your own access to internet for W10.

EDIT: I saw somewhere that on W11, if you have eg "Open Shell Menu" or similar (GUI hack)
installed, then you will have W11 updates disabled, unless uninstalled.

I use AVG Free, and have done so for 18 years, so updates there will be no problem, and of course, the browsers should be updated for some time.

Me neither. I gave W11 a shot in good faith but it was a lacklustre experience. So, I'm going to hope that 12 is a return to sense. If history is a guide, it might be, but I wouldn't count on it this time; the world has changed and MS is banking on cloud and AI.

A genius move, using Mint only for internet access. I'll keep that in mind.

I have ONLY used Windows, since I was introduced to PC's back in the early '90's, at work.

Started with 3.1, then onward and "upward" to W11 24H2.

My main encoding app ONLY runs on Windows (although some may be able to change that),
I have no issues with my setup's, so until Windows (or me) aren't around anymore, I'll stick with it.

I used 3.1 a few times, mainly at the Natural Science Museum in Durban's City Hall as a child, and I think at my uncle's.

Yes. Many applications are only on Windows, and if Windows is working all right, why change? Beneath, the classic OS we know and love is there. I hope that 12 addresses the user-interface concerns and tidies up weak performance in the shell. If Microsoft listened to users, there wouldn't be much problem.

[microchip8]

I have Win 11 in a VM that I use for only a single app that doesn't run under Wine on Linux. That app is the CD design software from Epson for my printer. I sometimes print CDs and this app can only run on Windows so I was forced to install it in a VM. Started with Win 10 then upgraded it to 11. I agree that the UI is a mess and it often requires to make many clicks to get where you want.

Also, for example, I wanted to change the NTP time server in Win 11. It took me a whole 5 minutes to find the setting. It's buried deep inside the clock settings making you go back and forth until you find it. Why? What's so special in changing the time server that the brilliant minds of MS decided to make it extra difficult by hiding it deep? It seems MS attracts the worst UI designers while Apple runs away with the better ones (macOS is not perfect but it's a lot better than Windows, UI-wise speaking)

But people are creatures of habit. They stick to what they know, even if that thing gives them shit, gets in their way and gets worse and worse with each new version.

[StainlessS]

W11, I guess that the real deal breaker for me is that TaskBar "Ticker Tape" type tools (live real time status stuff)
in particular NetSpeedMonitor will not be supported/possible on taskbar anymore.
I love being able to see surges in net usage. Having just gotten a 10" Surface Go2 (two-in-one, not fixed laptop),
and at a bloody good price from Amazon renewed (£79 + Free P+P), 8GB, 128GB storage, 8th gen core m3, and LTE sim slot.
[EDIT: Actually a tablet, I had to buy the M$ keyboard separately]
I've got another Go2, 4GB+64GB pentium which is OK for web surf, and a Go3 8GB+128GB 10th gen i3.
I've also got a another Go2 but is water/beer damaged, dont work, but spares for eg screen.

I've also recently gotten an Amazon Scancom Three.co.uk SIM with 25GB per month, every month until Feb 2027 for £35.00.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CX1VZH2S
SHIT!, price just dropped to £29.99 for limited time deal.

The speed of the Scancom LTE internet is a bit dire where I live, but in town is tolerable and provides possibility of YouTube 720P
but not FHD. (Other people say they get higher speed, but dont see how possible).
I also have in 5G phone 2nd SIM, another ScanCom SIM, Three.co.uk 500GB (impossibly high at crap speed) per month until about Nov 2026
but paid £130 (approx) for that, a bit overpriced [EDIT: had it about 6 months].
[EDIT: The Scancom SIM's are sold as "Business Only", perhaps I got me shit speed because I aint no business]

The LTE Go2 leaves me having to choose which internet throughput I show on taskbar, Wifi or LTE, so I've been toying
with the idea of figuring out how to do a taskbar tickertape type app to show total of multiple network devices,
NetSpeedMonitor can only show single device thoughput. [EDIT: I dont like having to select wifi/lte every time I switch network]

I mentioned NetSpeedMonitor in post #10 of this thread, here it is below, (the text left of red icon).
All it does is show current network speed (I have it only monitoring WiFi internet).

https://i.postimg.cc/y8cF2pV2/Net-Speed-Monitor.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Very basic, but that is why I like/love it (it does monitor total up/down usage stats too, but I turn that off).
I found a guide on installing the utility, only really intended for XP, but installs OK on W7 and W10 if you follow the guide [EDIT: x86/x64].
Guide here:- https://www.guidingtech.com/display-internet-speed-taskbar-windows/

EDIT: And on Linux Mint, NetspeedMonitor alternative is "Download and Upload Speed Applet".
https://i.postimg.cc/rFNvr7mJ/Screenshot-from-2019-09-25-13-02-28-00.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[microchip8]

I'm getting a MacBook Air M4 at the end of this year/beginning of next one. Since I'm a UNIX guy in heart and soul, I might just get a Mac to mess around with. It'll be most likely a toy for me, no real work on it, but who knows? that might change...

[StainlessS]

The Go2 m3 mentioned in prev post is actually core m3 (which is I think mobile i3).
Not to be confused with Snapdragon M3.

See also Up/Down Meter for Linux Mint in previous post EDIT.

[Brazil2]

MS has shifted in recent years to services/clouds/ads and Windows is becoming less and less relevant for them.
and seeing how presently MS is breaching user privacy, tracking them, collecting their data, spamming all corners of Windows with ads, etc

I totally agree, MS doesn't care of the OS anymore, Windows has just become a giant spyware.
Avoid 11 at all costs or you will regret it sooner or later.

[GeoffreyA]

I have Win 11 in a VM that I use for only a single app that doesn't run under Wine on Linux. That app is the CD design software from Epson for my printer. I sometimes print CDs and this app can only run on Windows so I was forced to install it in a VM. Started with Win 10 then upgraded it to 11. I agree that the UI is a mess and it often requires to make many clicks to get where you want.

Also, for example, I wanted to change the NTP time server in Win 11. It took me a whole 5 minutes to find the setting. It's buried deep inside the clock settings making you go back and forth until you find it. Why? What's so special in changing the time server that the brilliant minds of MS decided to make it extra difficult by hiding it deep? It seems MS attracts the worst UI designers while Apple runs away with the better ones (macOS is not perfect but it's a lot better than Windows, UI-wise speaking)

But people are creatures of habit. They stick to what they know, even if that thing gives them shit, gets in their way and gets worse and worse with each new version.

I think the problem comes from a mix of incompetence, dishonesty, and incongruent paradigms. Everything was all right in the Control Panel, but they introduced Settings because Windows was now meant to work on all devices and of the aim to make it like a mobile OS. It is hard to find anything in Settings and relies on one searching.

When Apple designs something, it comes out right. Microsoft, almost never, but they'll persist with a motif till they've forced it on everyone.

I had to use Monterey for three months in 2023. I never used macOS before, but very quickly, got the hang of it and the experience was pleasant.

[GeoffreyA]

W11, I guess that the real deal breaker for me is that TaskBar "Ticker Tape" type tools (live real time status stuff)
in particular NetSpeedMonitor will not be supported/possible on taskbar anymore.
I love being able to see surges in net usage.

If someone's favourite tool won't work any more, that is a problem. I forgot to mention in the original post that Quick Launch seems to have been removed; it's something I use hundreds of times a day and its removal would be "a no go."

The speed of the Scancom LTE internet is a bit dire where I live, but in town is tolerable and provides possibility of YouTube 720P
but not FHD. (Other people say they get higher speed, but dont see how possible).
I also have in 5G phone 2nd SIM, another ScanCom SIM, Three.co.uk 500GB (impossibly high at crap speed) per month until about Nov 2026
but paid £130 (approx) for that, a bit overpriced [EDIT: had it about 6 months].

Here, I pay ZAR 250, or £10, per month for "unlimited" data, but the speed is only 10 Mbps and it throttles after 250 GB.

[StainlessS]

I forgot to mention in the original post that Quick Launch seems to have been removed; it's something I use hundreds of times a day and its removal would be "a no go."

Yep, same here, forgot about that.

Here, I pay ZAR 250, or £10, per month for "unlimited" data, but the speed is only 10 Mbps and it throttles after 250 GB.
I pay £35 per month for 5G EE for unlimited (ie 1000GB fair use) per month, where I live I only get about 100Mb (sometimes 160Mb in middle of night),
but way better than other services for my location.

I guess that I dont really need the ScanCom Three.co.uk LTE sim for the surface go2, I can easily use my other scancom three sim, (phone, samsung S20 Ultra, dual SIM)
and switch on the phones HotSpot thingy, I guess that I thought that 19 months for £35 (now £29.99) is about £1.84 per month, almost free.
[EDIT: £1.84 for 25GB or £0.0736 per GB]
I only really use it in PUB if their Wifi aint working.
I'm on Classic 3-2-1 PAYG from O2 for voice, 3pence per minute, 2pence text, 1pence per 1MB of data, I dont use phone much, I only have family
(and maybe about 2 others) in contacts (apart from people like bank), and aint made any phone calls for several months. So, I dont wanna be paying
even £10 per month for something I dont use (I'm terribly anti-social) and get a bit annoyed if my phone rings :)
And so having separate DATA makes sense for me.

EDIT:
Classic 3-2-1 PAYG from O2 for voice, 3pence per minute, 2pence text, 1pence per 1MB of data
O2 terminated new Classic 3-2-1 PAYG sim accounts about 18 months ago (I think), BUT, for some reason is still available
on Amazon.co.uk, you will not now see those SIM's for sale in shops. (just in case there are other anti-social specimens reading this).
EDIT: O2 Classic 3-2-1 PAYG [You must make at least 1 call every 6 months (or text or 1MB data) else account closed]
https://www.amazon.co.uk/O2-Classic-Pay-you-PAYG/dp/B091P3TP77

EDIT: This guy spends way too much time on the phone:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyF6U-fwwas

[VoodooFX]

I don't know why skilled people put up with Windows for so long. There are much better alternatives, faster and more secure, and where the UI makes sense.

Because there are no alternatives for the really "skilled" users, you can't do zillion and one things in Linux.
"more secure" - that's one from all of the problems, I want OS to be 0 "secure". I don't want any embedded "secure" crap in OS.

What is "skilled"? My stereotype of unskilled users is that they have an [anti]virus and Chrome installed.

PS:
First OS was BASIC.

[microchip8]

Because there are no alternatives for the really "skilled" users, you can't do zillion and one things in Linux.


Yes, you can :)
With 25 years of Linux experience, I very well know what it can and can't. And the latter is a short list. And I wasn't talking about Linux specifically in that post. There are others OSes like macOS or the BSDs and, if you're masochistic, you'd try OpenIndiana. :)


What is "skilled"? My stereotype of unskilled users is that they have an [anti]virus and Chrome installed.

People who don't understand how an OS or a computer works. The "regular" people that just use it with varying degree of using it.

[GeoffreyA]

I only really use it in PUB if their Wifi aint working.
I'm on Classic 3-2-1 PAYG from O2 for voice, 3pence per minute, 2pence text, 1pence per 1MB of data, I dont use phone much, I only have family
(and maybe about 2 others) in contacts (apart from people like bank), and aint made any phone calls for several months. So, I dont wanna be paying
even £10 per month for something I dont use (I'm terribly anti-social) and get a bit annoyed if my phone rings :)

Being a bit of a loner myself, I understand the anti-social mindset. I hardly talk on the phone; it's mainly family, and my aunty from the UK calls a lot :)

I forgot to add that my package, the data cuts off from 7 p.m. to midnight, so I've got another bundle for that time. The round-the-clock "unlimited" costs much more.

[StainlessS]

data cuts off from 7 p.m. to midnight
Not aware of that being a 'thing' in the UK.

I'm never in any great hurry to talk to someone, I can wait till I see them,
I dont understand people who never shut up on the phone, walking down the street talking non-stop.
I also dont 'do' social media (unless you class D9 as social media, I dont).

EDIT: I also dont accept "friends" on D9, what could you possibly do with friends here ???

[GeoffreyA]

Not aware of that being a 'thing' in the UK.

I'm never in any great hurry to talk to someone, I can wait till I see them,
I dont understand people who never shut up on the phone, walking down the street talking non-stop.
I also dont 'do' social media (unless you class D9 as social media, I dont).

EDIT: I also dont accept "friends" on D9, what could you possibly do with friends here ???

It's the stupid network, trying to upsell the costlier unlimited packages.

Not really on social media either: Facebook and all that nonsense.

Yes, the concept of friends on Doom9 is puzzling. Probably, it was implemented in a time when these features were becoming popular?

[Z2697]

I'm using Windows 11 daily... as VM.
Windows 11 as main OS? Not gonna happen.

(Which means I'm using Windows 11 on Windows 10, kinda weird?)

[GeoffreyA]

I'm using Windows 11 daily... as VM.
Windows 11 as main OS? Not gonna happen.

(Which means I'm using Windows 11 on Windows 10, kinda weird?)

It's understandable. I will keep far away from 11, but I worry about the Arc driver because Intel is hesitant to implement changes for 10, such as hardware-accelerated GPU scheduling, which I felt was giving better performance on 11.