Mpeg-h 3d

[ndkamal]

I would like to talk about a codec. This codec is MPEG-H, for me MPEG-H is very underrated. After some tests the quality is better than Apple AAC. At 128 Kbps for stereo and 448 Kbps for 5.1.

Moreover Fraunhofer has made a free MPEG-H Suite. You have just to register and download it, with this link : http://www.mpegh.com/mas/

There are 8 tools in this suite, two tools are very interesting :

The first is « The MPEG-H Encoding and Muxing Tool (MHEX) », you can encode wav files to MPEG-H 3D, from 1.0 to 22.2 and other configurations like 5.1.4 or 7.1.4.

And the second is « MPEG-H Conversion Tool » who can convert Dolby Atmos BWF/ADM into MPEG-H 3D.

Since July 2023, Fraunhofer has published a MPEG-H 3D decoder, here the link https://github.com/Fraunhofer-IIS/mpeghdec, I hope it will be soon in FFMPEG.

There are several hardware player :
- Marrantz Cinema 60DAB
- Marrantz AV7706/N1B
- Marrantz Cinema 50
- Denon AVC-X6800H
- Denon AVC-A1H
- Sennheiser Ambeo Soundbar
- Amazon Fire TV Stick 4k MAX
- Google Chromecast Ultra 4k
…….

For finish, MPEG-H 3D is more efficient than Apple AAC, Dolby Digital or Dolby Digital Plus and the tools for creation are free.

[FranceBB]

Maybe, but the problem is that while AAC decoding is pretty much included in any possible existing device and is therefore ubiquitous, there are only just a bunch of MPEG-H decoders out there. As for AC3, it might not be that competitive nowadays, but it does offer decent enough performances at 192 kbits for stereo and 384 kbits for 5.1 and it's supported by pretty much any TV and surround system. Although it's included in both ATSC and DVB, broadcasting in MPEG-H would mean that the signal would make a whole bunch of very modern TVs and other devices obsolete as they wouldn't be able to decode it. We're talking about perfectly valid UHD HDR TVs in some cases! Keep in mind that the broadcast world rarely breaks support, so much so that HLG was the choice to support BT2020 SDR users, to say one thing, and most channels still keep a FULL HD and an SD beam (although it looks like we're gonna see the retirement of the latter in some parts of the world this year like in the UK). This is just to say that I don't think we're going to see a lot of channels broadcasting in MPEG-H 3D audio anything soon, with AC3 being cemented for 5.1 and E-AC3 being very widespread in UHD channels that make use of 5.1.4. We've seen the same thing with AC4 not gaining the traction Dolby expected, so I expect MPEG-H to follow a similar path, at least for linear broadcasting (streaming is a different thing).

[kurkosdr]

Maybe, but the problem is that while AAC decoding is pretty much included in any possible existing device and is therefore ubiquitous, there are only just a bunch of MPEG-H decoders out there. As for AC3, it might not be that competitive nowadays, but it does offer decent enough performances at 192 kbits for stereo and 384 kbits for 5.1 and it's supported by pretty much any TV and surround system. Although it's included in both ATSC and DVB, broadcasting in MPEG-H would mean that the signal would make a whole bunch of very modern TVs and other devices obsolete as they wouldn't be able to decode it. We're talking about perfectly valid UHD HDR TVs in some cases!
One can't but wonder why this thing isn't legally standardized. If a new format like AC4 or MPEG-H 3D Audio is included in ATSC and DVB, all new TVs sold in a relevant region should be required by the local laws to support it. All this regulatory output by most countries (even nonsensical stuff like forcing electric cars to make excessively loud droning noises) and this basic thing is left unchecked.

Anyway, a side-benefit of this lack of true standardization is that weird formats like AC4 are typically accompanied by secondary streams in more common formats like E-AC3 or AAC, making playback on smartphones, set-top boxes, PCs, etc much easier. So it'll happen with MPEG-H 3D Audio if it ever goes everywhere, thus negating any efficiency gains. Which leaves the "3D Audio" part. But as FranceBB said, Dolby Digital Plus Atmos (E-AC3+JOC) has emerged as the standard there and every soundbar and home cinema system capable of object-based-audio supports it (and E-AC3 itself is compatible with every UHD TV out there), so MPEG-H 3D Audio won't happen as an object-based audio format either. And the few broadcasters not using E-AC3+JOC have gone to AC4 which is less obscure than MPEH-H 3D Audio.

Also, isn't ISO supposed to have that other super-efficient codec called xHE-AAC? What sort of "international standards organization" is this when there's a frickin' format war going on inside itself? The few content providers (streamers) interested in a super-efficient ISO codec have gone to xHE-AAC, and digital shortwave radio also has standardized on xHE-AAC.

tl;dr: MPEH-H 3D Audio is dead with no market.

(although it looks like we're gonna see the retirement of the latter in some parts of the world this year like in the UK)
Wait, for real? Terrestrial TV in the UK is just horrible, just 9 FullHD channels at very low bitrates on a single densely-modulated mux (256QAM) plus lots of crappy MPEG2 SD channels at less-than-SVCD bitrates and only slightly higher resolution. Off-topic but genuinely excited.

[modus-ms325c]

After some tests the quality is better than Apple AAC. At 128 Kbps for stereo and 448 Kbps for 5.1.
haven't seen a single test that pits MH3A* codec against base AAC tho, can you link me to one or something so i can see for myself?
not entirely sold here based on a single claim about "better quality", and we all know how kindly hydrogenaudio reacts to such claims being made.

* - shorthand for MPEG-H 3D Audio because typing the whole thing out is too tiring for my tastes

loooooooooool this codec is dead, lol lol lol
uhhh, South Korea has already started broadcasting UHD content with this audio codec since may 2017.
Brazil is also expected to air some TV 3.0 stuff with said codec by 2025, as per the official website (https://mpegh.com/brazil/). though TV Cultura is the only channel currently broadcasting with that codec since March 1, 2024 (https://www.audioblog.iis.fraunhofer.com/mpegh-tv-cultura).
plus, 360 Reality Audio (360RA henceforth) exists and it's already carried by music streaming services like Amazon Music HD, Deezer, nugs.net, Sony Select and TIDAL.

fraunhofer IIS were (i think) the sole reliable source to get all the above information from, as they were fairly involved in how MH3A came to be. put simply, it will be adopted into the world at large, it's just a matter of time.

---

as a side-note, i have yet to see *any* device that outputs MH3A tracks (as they're being broadcast from an actual channel into an actual TV) into an actual file. i have also yet to see MH3A files being illegally spread-out into the wild, be it distributed standalone or as part of some new "release" that integrates UHD video with legit audio track that has such a codec.

[FranceBB]

Wait, for real?

Yes, BBC started switching off theirs and even upgraded the feed of their own local news, ITV followed and we're expecting more to follow through.

[ndkamal]

Originally Posted by modus-ms325c

haven't seen a single test that pits MH3A* codec against base AAC tho, can you link me to one or something so i can see for myself?

not entirely sold here based on a single claim about "better quality", and we all know how kindly hydrogenaudio reacts to such claims being made.

You can download the Tools by Fraunhofer it's free, like this you can do your own tests. I think it's better.

I put a link for the Mpeg-H 3D decoder :

https://www.mediafire.com/file/bnooj9f650bngxt/mpeghDecoder.rar/file

[ndkamal]

2023 was an important year for MPEG-H 3D, cause there are many implimentation in NLE like Davinci Resolve or Nuendo 13. But there is no much presence in Broadcast world, expect in Korea and in 2025 in Brazil. In Boradcast Dolby is the king.

I hope just there is an implimentation of the decoder in FFMPEG.

[modus-ms325c]

by the way, thanks for posting the decoder. i just went and snatched the mediafire download, may be of some use in the future.

[kurkosdr]

Yes, BBC started switching off theirs and even upgraded the feed of their own local news, ITV followed and we're expecting more to follow through.
Is this true for terrestrial? I doubt it, Ofom operates on the principle that if some grandma has a 15-year-old TV which can't get DVB-T2, she should be able to watch TV without having to buy a set-top box until broadcast TV stops broadcasting entirely. Which btw may not be as far into the future, since the UK is mulling shutting down broadcast TV entirely in 2030 (I am talking about terrestrial), so I highly doubt they'll make such a major change to their broadcasting towers (DVB-T to DVB-T2) for 6 years.

[hajj_3]

Is this true for terrestrial? I doubt it, Ofom operates on the principle that if some grandma has a 15-year-old TV which can't get DVB-T2, she should be able to watch TV without having to buy a set-top box until broadcast TV stops broadcasting entirely. Which btw may not be as far into the future, since the UK is mulling shutting down broadcast TV entirely in 2030 (I am talking about terrestrial), so I highly doubt they'll make such a major change to their broadcasting towers (DVB-T to DVB-T2) for 6 years.

Freely (https://www.freely.co.uk/) is launching soon.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Freely (https://www.freely.co.uk/) is launching soon.
Lol... This will probably end up being ditched like all the previous times the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and 5 have tried to work together!

[FranceBB]

Is this true for terrestrial? I doubt it

No idea, but they definitely switched off their DVB-S MPEG-2 720x576 yv12 25i TFF BT601 SD satellite feeds on Astra 2E. As of March 2024 BBC One SD, BBC Two SD, BBC Three SD, BBC Four SD, CBBC SD, CBeebies SD, BBC News SD, BBC Scotland SD, BBC ALBA SD, BBC Parliament SD all displayed a message saying that transmissions were gonna cease and now that we're in April the beam has been completely shut down, so much so that there's just black emptiness now. ITV is following and has just shut down ITV3, ITV4 and ITVBe, however there's still ITV1 and ITV2 being broadcasted in SD. Hopefully they're gonna get rid of those by the end of the year, but mine is just a "hope".

https://lyngsat-maps.com/footprints/images/Astra-2E-UK.png



the UK is mulling shutting down broadcast TV entirely in 2030 (I am talking about terrestrial), so I highly doubt they'll make such a major change to their broadcasting towers (DVB-T to DVB-T2) for 6 years.


Ah, I didn't know that the planned terrestrial shut down was 2030... I always thought terrestrial was gonna be here to stay.
I mean, I always thought terrestrial was gonna outlive satellite, not the other way round...
Leaving satellite aside, going full streaming by 2030 is a very bold move...

[kurkosdr]

Ah, I didn't know that the planned terrestrial shut down was 2030... I always thought terrestrial was gonna be here to stay.
They are mulling it but nothing settled:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2022/12/broadband-woes-as-bbc-plan-to-switch-off-terrestrial-uk-tv-by-2030.html
But this tells you what you need to know: They consider broadcast terrestrial TV a legacy service.

[kurkosdr]

uhhh, South Korea has already started broadcasting UHD content with this audio codec since may 2017.
Brazil is also expected to air some TV 3.0 stuff with said codec by 2025, as per the official website (https://mpegh.com/brazil/). though TV Cultura is the only channel currently broadcasting with that codec since March 1, 2024 (https://www.audioblog.iis.fraunhofer.com/mpegh-tv-cultura).
*sigh* yet another broadcast audio format. But I guess the DVB and ATSC committees "had to" accept both non-backwards compatible formats (AC4 and MPEG-H 3D Audio) so that both Dolby and the ISO patent holders are happy. BTW I don't care which of the two is "best", what I care there are two of them (considering it was the job of the DVB and ATSC commitees to pick one). Make one of the two die already.

/rant

[ndkamal]

Originally Posted by modus-ms325c

haven't seen a single test that pits MH3A* codec against base AAC tho, can you link me to one or something so i can see for myself?

not entirely sold here based on a single claim about "better quality", and we all know how kindly hydrogenaudio reacts to such claims being made.

If you have a source, you can put a link, and I will convert the file at 64 Kbps per channel.

[modus-ms325c]

If you have a source, you can put a link, and I will convert the file at 64 Kbps per channel.sorry, can't do that here. i was asking for a link to the *tests* that say such, something akin to comparing Opus-encoded files with AAC ones like what you see on hydrogenaudio, but whatever you say!

---

also, let's pack this one up, shall we? staff, please lock this thread and bury it to the farthest place possible because the record has already been set by bona-fide experts about where MPEG-H 3D Audio and Dolby AC-4 are already headed to.

i mean, AAC-LC and AC-3 are their most beloved codec by far because at least they don't try too hard with silly things like "improving audio quality at lower bitrates" because in practice we're just gonna get more audible compression artifacts anyway so what's the point of this thread existing if not to decide the world doesn't need another codec? AVC plus AC-3 at 384kbps is enough for everything! they said so!

i'm a lurker, i'm not made to look like a fool every time someone uses this thread as a dumping ground for how only one shiny new codec must survive in some television broadcasting standard or how this one new codec is gonna get relevant in basically years after WWIII ends (not exact words, my personal interpretation of what has been said here) or being shouted at how YOU MUST WATCH THE ENTIRE MOVIE TO DETECT COMPRESSION ARTIFACTS GODDAMMIT, and yet every time i visit this stinker of a place i get more shit, great job you two, you won!

[SeeMoreDigital]

ITV is following and has just shut down ITV3, ITV4 and ITVBe, however there's still ITV1 and ITV2 being broadcasted in SD. Hopefully they're gonna get rid of those by the end of the year, but mine is just a "hope".
It would be nice if all of ITV's +1 SD channels were deleted too. Same goes for channel 4 and 5 +1's ;)

[FranceBB]

sorry, can't do that here. i was asking for a link to the *tests* that say such, something akin to comparing Opus-encoded files with AAC ones like what you see on hydrogenaudio, but whatever you say!


I don't really understand what you're trying to say here.
That being said, I've requested LZE GmbH (Fraunhofer partner) a free evaluation of the MPEG-H Audio Encoder with my Sky account. The idea is to take the following sources:

- Stereo PCM 24bit 48000Hz
- DolbyE 5.1 20bit 48000Hz
- DolbyED2 5.1.4 20bit 48000Hz

and encode them at 192 kbit/s for the stereo and 384 kbit/s for the 5.1 and 520 kbit/s for the 5.1.4.

The outputs should be:

- AAC
- AC3
- E-AC3
- AC4
- Opus
- MPEG-H

Then we'll see.
This, of course, is IF they actually reply to me and allow me to use their encoder for free.
Why am I doing it? Purely for testing, but on a practical level, as I said, unless I see some results being like night and day compared to the well established E-AC3, I don't think it's gonna have much market.

[hajj_3]

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here.
That being said, I've requested LZE GmbH (Fraunhofer partner) a free evaluation of the MPEG-H Audio Encoder with my Sky account. The idea is to take the following sources:

- Stereo PCM 24bit 48000Hz
- DolbyE 5.1 20bit 48000Hz
- DolbyED2 5.1.4 20bit 48000Hz

and encode them at 192 kbit/s for the stereo and 384 kbit/s for the 5.1 and 520 kbit/s for the 5.1.4.

The outputs should be:

- AAC
- AC3
- E-AC3
- AC4
- Opus
- MPEG-H

Then we'll see.
This, of course, is IF they actually reply to me and allow me to use their encoder for free.
Why am I doing it? Purely for testing, but on a practical level, as I said, unless I see some results being like night and day comparing to the well established E-AC3, I don't think it's gonna have much market.

AC4 is supposed to use half the bitrate of e-ac3. mpeg-h is supposed to be of similiar quality to ac4.

[ndkamal]

Originally Posted by hajj_3

AC4 is supposed to use half the bitrate of e-ac3. mpeg-h is supposed to be of similiar quality to ac4.

I am totally agree with hajj_3 Dolby AC-4 should be better than Dolby Digital Plus.



Otherway, I put an citation of the creator of exhale, taken on this website :

"I consider MPEG-H Audio the most efficient lossy codec developed as of 2020. Recent versions of the OPUS codec (see link to sub-page below) or Dolby's AC-4 may match MPEG-H in audio quality at higher bit-rates, but I don't expect them to outperform it at any bit-rate (an assumption which, of course, needs to be verified via formal subjective evaluation)."

You can find the citation and graphics (comparison between xHE-AAC and MPEG-H), on this link :

http://www.ecodis.de/audio.htm

[SeeMoreDigital]

You can find the citation and graphics (comparison between xHE-AAC and MPEG-H), on this link :

http://www.ecodis.de/audio.htmHmmm...

But can xHE-AAC offer multi-channel audio?

[modus-ms325c]

But can xHE-AAC offer multi-channel audio?
noooooooooooope! with xHE-AAC, it's either mono or stereo as of this writing.
exhale author mentions multichannel support (https://gitlab.com/ecodis/exhale/-/blob/master/README.md?ref_type=heads), but it's all been relegated to a to-do list (http://www.ecodis.de/exhale/release.htm) which may not be updated in the forseeable future. but here's hoping!

[SeeMoreDigital]

noooooooooooope! with xHE-AAC, it's either mono or stereo as of this writing.

Indeed... So in my opinion is pretty pointless comparing xHE-AAC with MPEG-H.