VHS capturing device in 2022?

[lansing]

I'm planning to do some high quality VHS transfer. I had done my research to shop for the other equipment like an line-based TBC VCR and an external frame-based TBC. Now I'm looking for a good quality capturing device.

However, with most of the good old options of PCI capture card probably not going to work because of the outdated drivers, I think I should be looking at the USB options? I'm looking for something that I can capture lossless in Virtualdub for further post processing. What are my options?

[Sharc]

I'm planning to do some high quality VHS transfer. I had done my research to shop for the other equipment like an line-based TBC VCR and an external frame-based TBC. Now I'm looking for a good quality capturing device.

However, with most of the good old options of PCI capture card probably not going to work because of the outdated drivers, I think I should be looking at the USB options? I'm looking for something that I can capture lossless in Virtualdub for further post processing. What are my options?
I am using Hauppauge USB-live 2 together with a Pana DVD recorder in passthrough. Huffyuv lossless codec 4:2:2 and AmarecTV (less issues than VirtualDub/W10) as capture SW. I am quite satisfied with the result.

[lansing]

I am using Hauppauge USB-live 2 together with a Pana DVD recorder in passthrough. Huffyuv lossless codec 4:2:2 and AmarecTV (less issues than VirtualDub/W10) as capture SW. I am quite satisfied with the result.

I just checked their website, they stated that the device is outputting at 4:2:2, is it true? Have you checked?

[Emulgator]

Hauppauge USB-live 2 contains a MPEG-2 hardware encoder in a USB Stick (40€).
Welcome blockiness and a PSNR <32dB.
DV-AVI delivers better than that.

01.04.2022: I stand corrected:
The CX23100, while being able to capture on-the-fly hardware-encoded MPEG-2,
indeed additionally offers blockfree 4:2:2 uncompressed capture via USB2.0 and VirtualDub2
without framedrops in my short test.

No mentioning of that capabilitiy by Hauppauge themselves on their website nor specs.

If high quality is needed, I would suggest 4:2:2 10 bit uncompressed.
Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle (200€) is able to do that via USB 3.
One has to use their universal driver though, no VD.

[lansing]

Hauppauge USB-live 2 contains a MPEG-2 hardware encoder in a USB Stick (40€).
Welcome blockiness and a PSNR <32dB.
DV-AVI delivers better than that.
If high quality is needed, I would suggest 4:2:2 10 bit uncompressed.
Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle (200€) is able to do that via USB 3.
One has to use their universal driver though, no VD.

I have read about Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle, the problem people complained were that it's picky for VHS source, if my signal is not clean it would fail.

And what about the audio recording. Can the Shuttle record and output in lossless format?

[rwill]

There has recently been some discussion here:

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=183814

I don't think a Blackmagic Intesity would perform worse than some 40$ USB Grabber on not so clean input.

[Sharc]

I just checked their website, they stated that the device is outputting at 4:2:2, is it true? Have you checked?
Yes of course. One can use Huffyuv, UTVideo, Lagarith as lossless encoders together with a capture SW of your choice (AmarecTV, VirtualDub, VirtualVCR ......).
I bought my device about 10 years ago and captured plenty of VHS stuff since. As I wrote, I am using it together with a Pana DVD Recorder in passthrough.

[Sharc]

Hauppauge USB-live 2 contains a MPEG-2 hardware encoder in a USB Stick (40€).
Welcome blockiness and a PSNR <32dB.
Wrong and misleading information, sorry.
The device is shipped with a mpeg2 SW capture GUI which one does not have to use.
I am using it mostly with the Huffyuv codec (lossless 4:2:2, interlaced) and AmarecTV as capturing SW and a Panasonic DVD recorder in passthrough (via S-video). No blocks, no AV sync issues, no line wiggle or dropped frames.
It's just my practical experience, not based on misleading datasheets or whatever.
I mentioned this device because it works here pretty well and it is still actively supported with driver updates etc. by the manufacturer. I bought my device about 10 years ago, just updating the drivers along wiht the OS updates. I don't know if the quality of the HW is still the same today, but I recommended it in the other forum to a guy who is now more than happy with it after he has tried other current devices without success, pulling his hair ......

Going a bit more into details:
I had to do slight 'ProcAmp' adjustments in order to avoid YCbCr triplets which become out-of-gamut RGB when converted to RGB by a player/monitor (TV, PC ....)
Fine tuning is done when compressing the lossless 4:2:2 capture to the distribution format like x264, x265 or whatever, using Avisynth and/or an NLE.
Also, the device should be used via S-video because its comb filter for separating luma from chroma of composite video is not the very best (in my experience). The DVD recorder in passthrough solved this issue.

[scharfis_brain]

My current capture setup looks like this:
- a decent S-VHS VCR without TBC but with EDIT-MODE.
- 4.7k Ohm Potentiometer in the Y-Line of a S-Video cable to reduce Luma levels in order to avoid white-clipping
- S-Video input to a Panasonic ES10 (works as TBC)
- Component (YCbCr) Output of the ES-10 straight into the Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle.

This way I only have one PAL-delay-line in the playback-chain, which inheritely reduces vertical chroma resolution as well es introduces vertical chroma shift.

[Sharc]

This way I only have one PAL-delay-line in the playback-chain, which inheritely reduces vertical chroma resolution as well es introduces vertical chroma shift.
Interesting. In my setup (PAL) I had to shift the chroma up one pixel (scanline).

[scharfis_brain]

Interesting. In my setup (PAL) I had to shift the chroma up one pixel (scanline).

Yep. I have to do this, too.
But not using S-Video a second time avoids a two pixel-shift.

[lollo2]

My experience.

I also use a Hauppauge USB Live-2 capture card, fed by a JVC HR-9500MS (VCR with lineTBC). As Sharc, I capture with AmarecTV using HuffYUV 4:2:2 under Windows 10.

Since >5 years of capturing S-VHS / VHS I am obtaining excellent results. When (rarely in my case) the lineTBC of the VCR is not strong enough, I disable it and use a Panasonic DMR-ES15, with its side effects.

Most of the time the best VCR setting in my case is edit=off and D3R=on, sometimes edit=on and D3R=off.

[scharfis_brain]

I've tested several JVC VCRs with TBC and 3DNR.
All models had the same in common: the 3DNR - dispite of its setting - could not be disabled entirely. It was just reduced.

This interferes with my workflow: I deshake all content.

Thus I only use VCRs without digital processing.

[lollo2]

Yes, I have red elsewhere about your workflow: temporal noise reduction, especially on chroma, is not compatible with deshaking, and artifacts are created. You better work with a "raw" untouched capture for your videos.

BTW, the JVC VCRs noise reduction, linked to the lineTBC, is called N.R and can never be fully disabled; it is just reduced using edit mode=on. D3R is the internal sharpening feature: despite beeing "primitive", is not that bad associated with edit mode=off, because it slightly enhaces some details softened by the noise reduction. It is not good when using edit mode=on.

Edit:
If high quality is needed, I would suggest 4:2:2 10 bit uncompressed.

10-bit capture is not necessary for a VHS capture, 8-bit is more than adequate. You just fill the "extra" bit space with "nothing".
Uncompressed is not required either, a lossless codec is more appropriate to avoid filling "extra" disk space with "nothing".

Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle (200€) is able to do that via USB 3
I don't think a Blackmagic Intesity would perform worse than some 40$ USB Grabber on not so clean input.

They do. Blackmagic cards are not recommended for Analog SD capture, even with a clean input. Many results available on digitalfaq and videohelp forums.
Some model can be used to "dump" the Analog to HDMI (digital) conversion generated by a Panasonic DVD-R recorder used as capture device: another role, another story.

If a high-end device is required, an example is the Ensemble Designs BrightEye 75. Not because its 10bit capture, but because it has internally a quasi line/frameTBC, which avoid the usage of two lossy A/D and D/A conversions inside the VCR or the DVD-R recorder in passthrough mode. But it requires a SDI capture flow. User latreche34/dellsam34 posted some sample on digitalfaq and videohelp forums.

[scharfis_brain]

As soon as the analogue signal has been cleaned by the ES10, the Intesity Shuttle shows no problems capturing the signal.
As soon as I remove the ES10 from the chain, it is nearly impossible to make usable captures with the Intensity Shuttle.

btw.: some Advice on the DigitalFAQ Forums are emotionally steered. I don't trust them. Especially the advice regarding ES10 and intensity Shuttle and TBCs.

I hope, that Raw-Capturing and vhs-decode eventually will become mature, so that all issues regarding VCRs and capture cards will be gone.

[lollo2]

some Advice on the DigitalFAQ Forums are emotionally steered.

I agree ;) But the weakness of the BM cards for Analog SD captures are reported everywhere. I also have experience with dropped frames not reported and incorrect levels with few captures I did with some friends. And the intrinsic quality of the capture is not better than the Hauppauge USB Live-2.

Concerning vhs-decode, I am waiting for its maturity as well and since longtime, because I have not seen so far "superior" captures performed by high end material. We all then will switch to it and forget about lineTBC, frameTBC, procamp, capture cards, USB, HDMI, SDI, ... :)

[Sharc]

- 4.7k Ohm Potentiometer in the Y-Line of a S-Video cable to reduce Luma levels in order to avoid white-clipping

Interesting option. Maybe better than doing this correction by means of 'ProcAmp' tweaks after the A/D conversions - if need be.

[Emulgator]

Sorry for my MPEG-2 conclusion from the Hauppauge USB Live-2 datasheet.
I couldn't imagine that this thing delivers SD uncompressed via USB 2...

Small Disclaimer: I am not a BM fanboy, this is just to publish ways to get the desired high quality result.

Back to Blackmagic Intensity shuttle audio:
Yes. this captures uncompressed audio, but with a implementation fault, which can be mended by passing audio through Audacity.
See below: (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1847255#post1847255)
Follow-up of buggy drivers:
In case somebody wants to use Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle USB 3.0:
The captured-from-analogue 2.0 24bps@48kHz Audio stream (under mentioned firmware)
can not be recognised by SoundForgePro 10,11, Vegas Pro 12,13,14,15, eac3to 3.34.
Only Audacity using ffmpeg (avcodec-55.dll) could index, open and recode to 2.0 24bps 48kHz .wav.
So for me 2 more steps before one can actually work with the capture.
Looking at mediainfo I assume they inserted the WMMEDIASUBTYPE as Codec ID.
Just reported that to Blackmagic.

TBC: Yes, what the others said.
Blackmagic Shuttle is indeed picky, line TBC only, this is of no help if source is jittery, and drops out.
I use a choice of AG-7750 or NV-HS950, or DMR-EX95 or Toshiba RD-XR48 as playback decks,
each behaving differently and solving different scenarios, then into Intensity Shuttle.

10bit or not: Once you need to expand blacks you will ask for the additional 2 bits...
Since the TBCs in the machines I have (NV-HS950 at least) only work on 8 bit fields,
maybe a moot point, but you never know.
----------------
Late Edit about 10bit being useful or not (I just made a recent BM <-> HA comparison).
Pixel-peeping and checking sample values in AvsPmod from the BM 10-bit captures:

The lowest two bits indeed contain meaningful data.
In black bars/pillars of a VHS capture all reasonable values are there:
Y values starting from 30, odd values are there, no zeros only, no multiples of 2 or 4 only,
so worth to have and keep in my humble opinion...

[lansing]

Reading from the comments above, looks like Hauppauge USB is the way to go. It's inexpensive, no drops in quality, with constant driver updates and it can output raw data. Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle can also be a good choice if I'm doing game captures that requires a component inputs, but I'm only doing VHS atm.

I agree that the atmosphere in DigitalFAQ is just not genuine. They're like "this is bad, this is bad, that is bad, that is bad. Okay this is good. You want it? I have it. It cost a thousand bucks." I mean they're selling a second hand Hauppauge USB for $150, wow.


@scharfis_brain

What is this Ohm Potentiometer, what is the white clipping? Can you show a before/after pictures?

I'm also getting the JVC S-VHS HR-7500+/8000/9000 series (depends on price) and know about the DNR that was tied to the TBC in its memory buffer, but just how bad was the DNR? Does it wipe out a lot of details?

Also with the s-video output, is there going to be a shift in chroma pixel by nature? The setup in my mind is a
JVC VCR => s-video out to Videonics Digital Video Mixer MX-1 for TBC => s-video out to Hauppauge USB => PC
So my chroma is going to be shifted twice?

[lollo2]

Interesting option. Maybe better than doing this correction by means of 'ProcAmp' tweaks after the A/D conversions - if need be.

More details here: https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/47744-tipp-digitalisieren-%C3%BCbersteuerter-signale-von-analogen-uralt-kameras-vidicon/

The card procamp tweak happens in the digital domain, with all the constraints we discussed in several topics at videohelp forums (you were active on those discussions IIRC).

The voltage shrink happens in the analog domain, and is sensitive to "classic" analog problems, such as noise, interferences, accuracy, ... Only a side-by-side comparison for each case can determine what is better, and the winner probably is not always the same.

IMO the best solution is an external high-end true procamp (but also in this case we are introducing and additional element in the capture chain, with its own disadvantage)

[lollo2]

Hauppauge USB is the way to go

If you choose this way, you must have a VCR with lineTBC or a VCR without lineTBC followed by a Panasonic DMR in passthrough mode.

You also need a Y/C signal path to the card, because its comb filter is mediocre, again by a high end VCR with S-Video output or a Panasonic DMR in passthrough mode.

[lollo2]

Blackmagic Shuttle is line TBC only

I do not think so. It needs a lineTBC correction from either a VCR or a Panasonic DMR passthrough.

[lollo2]

I'm also getting the JVC S-VHS HR-7500+/8000/9000 series (depends on price) and know about the DNR that was tied to the TBC in its memory buffer, but just how bad was the DNR? Does it wipe out a lot of details?

Some video (and image) comparison here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1jpyNRGNGY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0FDfvNTEss&t=5s


Some discussion here:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/10875-recommendations-jvc-vcr.html#post70663 -> in my case edit=off is better
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/401232-JVC-S-VHS-settings-for-capture-%28again%29 -> but in my case edit =off causes higher ghosting at scene change

[lansing]

Some video (and image) comparison here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1jpyNRGNGY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0FDfvNTEss&t=5s


Some discussion here:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/10875-recommendations-jvc-vcr.html#post70663 -> in my case edit=off is better
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/401232-JVC-S-VHS-settings-for-capture-%28again%29 -> but in my case edit =off causes higher ghosting at scene change

These are comparison on the edit mode, not the DNR.

For what I read from your link, The EDIT=ON is like booting a PC in safe mode, where it turns off all post-processing, which is a good thing since
vapoursynth filters will do a far better job

And also how is the line TBC in those Panasonic DMR compares to the one in VCR?

[lollo2]

The N.R. cannot be disabled without turning off the lineTBC. They work as a pair. I never disable the lineTBC, except when I use a DMR as passthrough. There is no sense in capturing without a line correction, so I have no example to show.

The EDIT=ON is like booting a PC in safe mode, where it turns off all post-processing

No, only some (minor) of them. Read the provided links. An additional link here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/395451-Chroma-mess

which is a good thing since vapoursynth filters will do a far better job

It depends. Starting on a higher grainy/noisy source forces to use (for example) a temporal denoiser with a high temporal radius, causing loss of details, while starting from a slightly denoised source is, in my case, often better. It really depends on the source, there is not a general rule. I have experienced both cases, and I always capture twice with edit=on and edit=off.

And also how is the line TBC in those Panasonic DMR compares to the one in VCR?

Stronger, but my ES-15 has side effect (high Y levels clamp), additional lossy element in the chain. It also has noise reduction that cannot be completely turned off, but much lower than JVC VCR. I only use when tapes are such that the lineTBC correction of the VCR is not strong enough.

Be also aware that tapes in marginal conditions also need a frameTBC, rare today and expensive. Hopefully you'll not be in this case.

[lansing]

No, only some (minor) of them. Read the provided links. An additional link here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/395451-Chroma-mess

That post was talking about the chroma ghosting introduced by the TBC/DNR combo, not EDIT=ON.


It depends. Starting on a higher grainy/noisy source forces to use (for example) a temporal denoiser with a high temporal radius, causing loss of details, while starting from a slightly denoised source is, in my case, often better. It really depends on the source, there is not a general rule. I have experienced both cases, and I always capture twice with edit=on and edit=off.

DNR from 20+ years ago is not going to beat Neat Video.


Stronger, but my ES-15 has side effect (high Y levels clamp), additional lossy element in the chain. It also has noise reduction that cannot be completely turned off, but much lower than JVC VCR. I only use when tapes are such that the lineTBC correction of the VCR is not strong enough.

So the Panny ES-15 also had problem with DNR not turning off?


Be also aware that tapes in marginal conditions also need a frameTBC, rare today and expensive. Hopefully you'll not be in this case.

I have the Videonics Video Mixer MX-1 on my way. It should get the job done.

[lollo2]

That post was talking about the chroma ghosting introduced by the TBC/DNR combo, not EDIT=ON.

If you still think "EDIT=ON is like booting a PC in safe mode, where it turns off all post-processing", I give up.

DNR from 20+ years ago is not going to beat Neat Video.

That's not what I compared!

Good luck with your captures!

[scharfis_brain]

Stronger, but my ES-15 has side effect (high Y levels clamp), additional lossy element in the chain. It also has noise reduction that cannot be completely turned off, but much lower than JVC VCR. I only use when tapes are such that the lineTBC correction of the VCR is not strong enough.

The PAL version of the ES10/15 allows to completely disable temporal noise filtering.
I agrre, that it hass far too much luma gain, that's why I put a potentiometer between VCR and ES10.

[lollo2]

Here a sample on my hardware. A comparison between a capture from a Panasonic VCR without lineTBC versus the same VCR adding the ES-15 with N.R.=off. I still see some noise reduction. If you say the N.R. can be completely disabled, it could be a low-pass filter effect of the added device on the high frequecies, so a spacial effect more than a temporal effect, I do not know. But the noise reduction is there, at least in my experiments.

https://imgsli.com/OTkyMDk

P.S. I am providing a field analysis only because the original vhs has even field corrupted, and we were trying to fix them with the ES-15, without success.

[Sharc]

Depending where I look the Panny has retained more details (or just introduced artefacts?) or smoothed away details at other parts of the picture. The vertical shift is a bit annoying for the comparison.
If one picture is the top and the other picture is the bottom field the noise comparison would be moot.
Not sure about my conclusion though.

[lansing]

Here a sample on my hardware. A comparison between a capture from a Panasonic VCR without lineTBC versus the same VCR adding the ES-15 with N.R.=off. I still see some noise reduction. If you say the N.R. can be completely disabled, it could be a low-pass filter effect of the added device on the high frequecies, so a spacial effect more than a temporal effect, I do not know. But the noise reduction is there, at least in my experiments.

https://imgsli.com/OTkyMDk

P.S. I am providing a field analysis only because the original vhs has even field corrupted, and we were trying to fix them with the ES-15, without success.

Why is there a vertical shift?

[Sharc]

Some more reading about the impact of passthrough and its settings etc.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-what-do-you-use

[Sharc]

Why is there a vertical shift?
Comparing the top with a bottom field? Just guessing.

[lollo2]

I am comparing odd field versus odd field, cannot do at frame level for this capture because the even fields are bad.

The shift is caused by the lineTBC of the ES-15, framing the active area in a different region (1 pixel shift to the right, 1 pixel shift to the top).

Here a comparison where I aligned the 2 captures (YUY2 converted to RGB to be able to cut/add 1 pixel in width):
https://imgsli.com/OTkzNzE

The lineTBC effect is evident in the right boot of the austronaut (and many vertical lines), together with a general noise reduction (the column on the left for example).

EDIT:
A "setting guide" for Panasonic DVD recorder used in passthrough:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/403635-Panasonic-DVD-recorder-passthrough-settings-%28DMR-ES10-DMR-ES15-DMR-ES25%29?mode=hybrid

[lansing]

From what I have read so far, here's what I think happened with the TBC progression:

It all started out in the professional field with those expensive device that can do time base correction and frame synchronizing for broadcast. Eventually it came down to the consumer level where the TBC feature (not the frame synchronizer) was somewhat implemented into VCR, with each brand adding their own sauce into the mix, like noise reduction. Those sauces however, became the headache we have to deal with today. The limited buffer size in the VCR TBC also limited its effectiveness on fixing crappy sources, it was enough for most but not the crappy one.

At about the same time, consumer level digital mixer became available (It was not cheap though). As a part of the package, these mixers came with TBC and frame synchronizing at the same time, where they have enough memory to do a full frame TBC (52x lines) at once compares to 2 lines TBC from VCR. They called it "infinite window TBC".

So, if my assumption is correct, to get a high quality VHS transfer, all we need is a decent VCR that adds no additional digital filters and has a s-video output, a digital mixer and that's it. There is no need for a high end VCR with line TBC or TBC capable DVD recorder as passthrough, which are inferior to infinite window TBC, avoiding all unnecessary pitfalls. And there is no need for those ridiculously expensive so called "external frame TBC" basically just for frame synchronizing.

[cubicibo]

They do. Blackmagic cards are not recommended for Analog SD capture, even with a clean input. Many results available on digitalfaq and videohelp forums.
Some model can be used to "dump" the Analog to HDMI (digital) conversion generated by a Panasonic DVD-R recorder used as capture device: another role, another story.

If a high-end device is required, an example is the Ensemble Designs BrightEye 75. Not because its 10bit capture, but because it has internally a quasi line/frameTBC, which avoid the usage of two lossy A/D and D/A conversions inside the VCR or the DVD-R recorder in passthrough mode. But it requires a SDI capture flow. User latreche34/dellsam34 posted some sample on digitalfaq and videohelp forums.

I had dug through that hole last year and people complained without providing evidence. I remember the only comparison I could find used a static test grid. You can't assess the performance of a video apture card without looking at how it manages motion. Also these two sites regularly point out all these professional TBCs will trip over VHS due to the volatility of the signals and timing.

Anyway, BMD devices can provide solid results if you have a full TBC between the VCR and the capture card. (That is, some Sony or Panasonic DVD recorder deck with internal TBC or some dedicated devices providing a the very least a genlock).

So, if my assumption is correct, to get a high quality VHS transfer, all we need is a decent VCR that adds no additional digital filters and has a s-video output, a digital mixer and that's it. There is no need for a high end VCR with line TBC or TBC capable DVD recorder as passthrough, which are inferior to infinite window TBC, avoiding all unnecessary pitfalls. And there is no need for those ridiculously expensive so called "external frame TBC" basically just for frame synchronizing.
Also it should be noted that line-TBC (all TBC on VCRs) may not be enough for some captures cards like the BMDs for some tapes. Unless the tape you're saving is an absolute archive treasure, S-VHS VCR + DVD recorder pass-through + lossless / 422 (HQ) ProRes capture card will give you already excellent results.

[lansing]

Also it should be noted that line-TBC (all TBC on VCRs) may not be enough for some captures cards like the BMDs for some tapes. Unless the tape you're saving is an absolute archive treasure, S-VHS VCR + DVD recorder pass-through + lossless / 422 (HQ) ProRes capture card will give you already excellent results.

The digital mixer I just got isn't that much more than a Panasonic ES15, so it's definitely a wiser choice.

I just brought a JVC HR-S4800U for $125, pretty good reasonable price.

[scharfis_brain]

what kind of digital mixer did you got?

[lansing]

what kind of digital mixer did you got?

Videonics MX-1. This is the video that sold me:
https://youtu.be/HEXLlqJQ7Oc

[lansing]

Does the Hauppauge USB able to record VHS stereo? I have an anime VHS that stated on the cover to be "mono-stereo-Hi-fi", so I supposed it plays Hi-fi stereo? But Hauppauge was not able to record the stereo properly? I checked the recorded audio in Adobe Audition, the left and right channel are exactly the same.

[Sharc]

Does the Hauppauge USB able to record VHS stereo? I have an anime VHS that stated on the cover to be "mono-stereo-Hi-fi", so I supposed it plays Hi-fi stereo? But Hauppauge was not able to record the stereo properly? I checked the recorded audio in Adobe Audition, the left and right channel are exactly the same.
AFAIK the Hauppauge records what it gets as input signals through the red and white audio RCA connectors, and according to how the VHS player and the capture software have been configured for the audio (mono, stereo, downmix ...). You can try by plugging/unplugging one of the connectors, flip red with white and check wheter you get different signals on the two.
Are you sure that the VHS tape is really 2 channel stereo? Also, not all VCR/VHS models support stereo.

[lollo2]

Does the Hauppauge USB able to record VHS stereo?

Yes, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVMp7yAtwYs&t=41s

[lansing]

AFAIK the Hauppauge records what it gets as input signals through the red and white audio RCA connectors, and according to how the VHS player and the capture software have been configured for the audio (mono, stereo, downmix ...). You can try by plugging/unplugging one of the connectors, flip red with white and check wheter you get different signals on the two.
Are you sure that the VHS tape is really 2 channel stereo? Also, not all VCR/VHS models support stereo.

I dug up my dvd version of the anime and it turned that its audio was also converted from mono, with both left and right channel the same. So Hauppauge was outputting correctly.

[Emulgator]

Out of curiosity I ordered the bespoke Hauppauge USB-Live2 Stick and got it delivered today.

Downloaded the appropriate Hauppauge software package from their website,
hauppaugecapture1_2_39326.exe (85,4MB)

Tried installing on Win10Pro64, but it stalls:
"This software requires an additional 1550871192K bytes free on the C: drive to install.
Please remove any unnecessary files and try again."
My C: is a 4TB SSD with 2,8TB free...

Hauppauge USB-Live2 FAQ:
"USB-Live2 creates MPEG-2 files."
Technical specifiations:
"Video capture format: MPEG-2"

Hauppauge Capture FAQ:
"Hauppauge Capture supports H.264 recordings in the TS, MP4 and M2TS format.
The video quality of MP4 and TS files are the same.
If you are recording from a USB-Live 2, recordings are made in MPEG-2 format.

Q: "My video recordings look pixelated..."
A:..."Than start with Quality set to 11Mbits/sec.
This should give you very good quality.
You can continue to increase the Quality up to a maximum of 14Mbits/sec."

Sharc, what driver/s are you using ?
Automated Driver install via Windows Update failed on Win7U64 and Win10Pro64:
"Hauppauge device: No driver found"
I am tempted to go to driverscape and install an older driver from 2010...

Ah well, finally found a base driver 36075 which just was able to install on the Win7U64 system.
With an ancient window searching in vain on top of Win7's "install agree" window.
Power cycling now...

[lollo2]

I am using this driver: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oGxDxx0mtH2wt9oXvNszDInP47lQU6MN/view?usp=sharing

Edit: a more recent here https://www.hauppauge.co.uk/site/support/index.html#win10

[Emulgator]

Got it working now, looks good !
VirtualDub64 43702 sees a Conexant CX23100.
From prerecorded VHS -> S-VHS -> S-Video -> 720x576x25i PAL-SD 4:2:2 8-bit UYVY (or YUY2) uncompressed 166Mb/s via USB3.0 Expresscard Adapter. Well worth the 40€ !
Pixel peeping and framedrops comes later, this Win7 system has a poor display.

[lollo2]

No need for uncompressed, capture with VirtualDub 1.9.11 or AmarecTV 3.10 and HuffYUV ;)

Edit: with VirtualDub and Windows 10 I experienced audio/video synch problems; never with AmarecTV. YMMV

[Sharc]

Sharc, what driver/s are you using ?

driver10_6_0_119_36075.exe
You can download it from here (Scroll down to USB-live2)
https://www.hauppauge.com/pages/support/support_usblive2.html

You can also download and install the capture app version 39326 from here which will install the driver 6.0.119.36075
https://www.hauppauge.com/pages/support/support_usblive2.html

If your capture app (Vdub or AmarecTV for example) does not see the driver you may have to run the native mpeg2 'HauppaugeCapture.exe' just once. It may set something in the registry, I don't know. Then just close it and VirtualDub and AmarecTV should work with Huffyuv or any other codec just fine.

I am on Windows10, but I think it's the same with Windows7.

Hope it helps.

Edit:
Oh I just saw you got it working. Great.

[Emulgator]

Now it installed on Win10Pro64 4TB SSD too.
Solution was: Press "Ignore" if presented with:
"This software requires an additional 1550871192K bytes free on the C: drive to install.
Please remove any unnecessary files and try again."

But: Although driver 36075 is installed now and reported as working,
still Virtual Dub can not connect to device on that system.

Investigating...
In not working Win10Pro64 USBTreeView sees it as 2xHID, Keyboard, and no Media
VirtualDub2 sees the CX23100 capture device, but can not connect.

Thanks for the advice with running HauppaugeCapture.exe just once.
Still I am reluctant to let anything beside the bare driver on that ystem, but I may have to do just that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
In working Win7U64 with the bare 36075 driver install USBTreeView sees it as 2xHID, Keyboard, and Media.

USBTreeView reports Device Maximum Speed as High Speed, and indeed
HA USB-Live2 is run on USB2.0 High Speed even in USB3.0 Expresscard Adapter, no gains from running it on a USB3.0 port.

That was what I was worrying about: Will USB2.0 keep up enough bitrate ?
PAL-SD demands a pixelrate of 720x576x25= 10.368.000pix/s, 4:2:2 is 16bpp, so 165Mbps via the USB2.0 line
and any intermediate compression (may it be Huffyuv, UTVideo or in my case MagicYUV) would come after ingest.

Those 20,736MByte/s (plus audio, plus overhead) seem easy to keep if one looks at the pure USB2.0 specs,
but a good part of USB2.0 controllers did not handle that with steadiness under Windows.

Now VirtualDub capture from a known VHS tape with wrinkles at the beginning
Pana NV-HS950 (middle-ground field-based TBC, won't overcorrect and freeze line batches as AG-7750):
-> S-Video -> HA USB-Live2: In 5 min 0 frames dropped, but 12 frames inserted.
4:2:2 in 8bit for 40 bucks, good to go !

Activating audio preview in VD will lead to framedrops, but heck, that is not the fault of the capturing device,
even BM offer no audio preview maybe because they did not solve that either,
or it is considered unsolvable within Windows, so no show-stopper.

So in cheap projects finally no need anymore to sacrifice any chroma while having to go 4:2:0 DV-AVI
and for 10bit 4:2:2 SD and HD I keep on using BM Intensity Shuttle.

Thanks for making me aware of this solution !

[lollo2]

Will USB2.0 keep up enough bitrate ?

Yes. I never had bandwidth problem with SD. For tapes in good condition, 0 dropped frames, 0 inserted frames.

for 10bit 4:2:2 SD I keep on using BM Intensity Shuttle

If you have time, could you post a comparison (2 separate videos) of the same tape captured at 8-bit 4:2:2 YUV with Hauppauge and at 10-bit 4:2:2 with BM Intensity Shuttle? In my experiments I have seen no improvement using 10-bit capture, but it will be nice to have more data ;)

[lansing]

My TBC mixer finally arrived after 9 days of shipping, lol, finally I can do some test.

I ended up getting a Panasonic WJ-AVE5 mixer because the Videonics MX-1 I first brought was broken, with the outputting video shifting about 10 pixel to the left and all control buttons malfunctioning.

Testing on my Japanese VHS anime, the tbc mixer seems pretty good, all small jittering gone as well as those horizontal color streak..

non-tbc
https://i.imgur.com/OhgB5zW.png

tbc
https://i.imgur.com/VrtquAK.png

I feel like the mixer also did some auto white balancing internally?

One thing I don't understand though is the quality difference between composite and s-video output on the default blue screen. With s-video out, for some reason there is a frequency of square pattern casted on top of the frame, however there is none on the composite out.

composite
https://i.imgur.com/CBhiIkw.png

s-video
https://i.imgur.com/IRt3UKc.png

mixer
https://i.imgur.com/jdPANJg.png

[Sharc]

I feel like the mixer also did some auto white balancing internally?

This is possible, yes. Auto white, level shifts, AGC .....

One thing I don't understand though is the quality difference between composite and s-video output on the default blue screen. With s-video out, for some reason there is a frequency of square pattern casted on top of the frame, however there is none on the composite out.

I am not sure if I understand your current system configuration correctly, but the dots (dotcrawl or hanging dots) are probably remnants from imperfect luma/chroma separation depending on the comb filter which is ON or OFF somewhere along your signal path. There is probably a setting for switching it ON or OFF. Laserdisc is natively composite and needs to have an Y/C filter in order to provide an S-video signal. These filters are however never perfect.

[lansing]

My VCR is a JVC HR-S4800U, with "picture mode" set to "EDIT" when capturing.

I don't really see any dot crawl on my VHS playback, so I guess that's just an issue with the blue screen. Switching from composite to s-video did fix the issue of artifact popping up on overexposed color, so that means the s-video is doing its work.

The TBC doesn't seems to do much though on my 4th generation VHS copy.

[lansing]

Test capture for 8 minutes with AmaRecTV in Lagarith lossless, 0 drop frames, no chroma ghosting, the mixer seems pretty good.

Now questions about the video and audio driver settings, I'm trying to capture Japanese vhs, do I choose NTSC_M or NTSC_M_J? For the audio setting, how do I determine the optimal volume to record the audio?

[Sharc]

My VCR is a JVC HR-S4800U, with "picture mode" set to "EDIT" when capturing.....

Sorry about my confusion regarding your setup and mentioning laserdisc. I had another discussion (https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/404835-Looking-for-3D-comb-filter-capture-card-for-Laserdisc) in mind.

[Sharc]

Now questions about the video and audio driver settings, I'm trying to capture Japanese vhs, do I choose NTSC_M or NTSC_M_J?

https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=511686&postcount=2

For the audio setting, how do I determine the optimal volume to record the audio?
In VirtualDub2 you can display the audio signal and check if it clips, for example:
View->Audio display
The level can be adjusted in Windows' sound settings (details depending on Windows version)

[lansing]

https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=511686&postcount=2



Does that mean capturing in NTSC_M_J will be darker?

[Sharc]

Does that mean capturing in NTSC_M_J will be darker?
Not necessarily. I would do some test captures of dark and bright scenes including pictures with high brightness changes within the picture. Then inspect the capture with avisynth's 'histogram("classic")' or 'VideoScope' and apply corrections as appropriate (eg. using Levels() and/or tweak() in avisynth). Or upload a captured sample and collect comments from forum members.

About the NTSC pedestal you may want to read here:
http://www.glennchan.info/articles/technical/setup/75IREsetup.html

[lansing]

Not necessarily. I would do some test captures of dark and bright scenes including pictures with high brightness changes within the picture. Then inspect the capture with avisynth's 'histogram("classic")' or 'VideoScope' and apply corrections as appropriate (eg. using Levels() and/or tweak() in avisynth). Or upload a captured sample and collect comments from forum members.

About the NTSC pedestal you may want to read here:
http://www.glennchan.info/articles/technical/setup/75IREsetup.html

The article is a little bit confusing, what I got is basically for VHS capture we'll need the black level to be at 16 on the waveform and white level at 235.

I tested with both options and they do have differences. For my Japanese tape, using NTSC_M gets a darker video. Waveform showing NTSC_M dark level at 0 while NTSC_M_J at 16 and highlight being the same. So NTSC_M_J is the correct option.

[lansing]

Regarding the recording volume, I have checked several old anime dvd I have, all their volume sit at -12 db on the waveform. Don't know why they go this low but I'll just follows.

As for the video proc-amp in Hauppauge's device setting, is it the same thing as to running color correction filters in the post? My anime has blowout red that needs fixing, so I want to know the position of the device's proc-amp in the processing chain.

[Sharc]

The article is a little bit confusing, what I got is basically for VHS capture we'll need the black level to be at 16 on the waveform and white level at 235.

Exactly. That's the main point for the luma (Y). Once we are in the digital domain the IRE has no relevance any more.
Next step could be check the chroma (U,V). This is normally no problem as the chroma (U,V) is usually well within the legal 16 .... 240 range. However it is possible that some YUV triplets - although all valid within the range - lead to out-of-gamut RGB (usually clipped, rarely folded-over R,G,B) when converted to RGB for viewing on a monitor. It materializes as loss of details for example, and (slight) color distortions which can however be corrected in post processing if need be - unless the capture is totally off the kilter.
Last but not least color tweaks are also a matter of personal preference which is not always in line with 'technical correctness'.

[Sharc]

As for the video proc-amp in Hauppauge's device setting, is it the same thing as to running color correction filters in the post?

As long as Y and U,V are within their legal ranges ie. Y(16....235) and U,V (16 ....240) or even 0....255 for 8 bit, it should be possible to do all corrections in post, I think.
I don't believe that the device "proc-amp" does anything with the USB-live2 on its analog side of the video (the original meaning of proc-amp). It's all done after A/D conversion in the digital domain as I understand it. So I don't see a real difference between the "proc-amp" settings and post correction tweaks as long as the Hauppauge's A/D converter does not clip due to an excessive input signal level. If so (unlikely), one would probably have to use an external attenuator before the signal is fed into the Hauppauge USB-live2.
Maybe there are different opinions on that ....


My anime has blowout red that needs fixing, so I want to know the position of the device's proc-amp in the processing chain.
It has to be done experimentally with the help of the levels and/or RGB inspection and tweaks. Can you upload a sample, or at least post a .png snapshot of a critical frame?

[lansing]

As long as Y and U,V are within their legal ranges ie. Y(16....235) and U,V (16 ....240) or even 0....255 for 8 bit, it should be possible to do all corrections in post, I think.
I don't believe that the device "proc-amp" does anything with the USB-live2 on its analog side of the video (the original meaning of proc-amp). It's all done after A/D conversion in the digital domain as I understand it. So I don't see a real difference between the "proc-amp" settings and post correction tweaks as long as the Hauppauge's A/D converter does not clip due to an excessive input signal level. If so (unlikely), one would probably have to use an external attenuator before the signal is fed into the Hauppauge USB-live2.
Maybe there are different opinions on that ....


It has to be done experimentally with the help of the levels and/or RGB inspection and tweaks. Can you upload a sample, or at least post a .png snapshot of a critical frame?

sample here (https://www.mediafire.com/file/lh3ju1gw2spimey/ntsc_m_j.mp4/file).

The image looks so saturated, but vectorscope was showing all color within legal range. The red channel was blowing up in the RGB parade in Davinci Resolve, but surprisingly it didn't clip and was recoverable with decreasing "color boost" or "saturation" parameter.

[Sharc]

sample here (https://www.mediafire.com/file/lh3ju1gw2spimey/ntsc_m_j.mp4/file).

The image looks so saturated, but vectorscope was showing all color within legal range. The red channel was blowing up in the RGB parade in Davinci Resolve, but surprisingly it didn't clip and was recoverable with decreasing "color boost" or "saturation" parameter.
Yes, legal YUV triplets translate into illegal RGB. For example many of the pinks are around YUV(190,126,167). With the 601 matrix these get converted to RGB(265,172,199) which is eventually clipped to RGB(255,172,199).
I don't know how DaVinci Resolve deals with it, but I would suggest to legalize the colors in Avisynth before taking the clip to an NLE, and only then do the fine color tweaks in the NLE in RGB color space. My point is as soon as the capture gets converted to RGB (e.g. by the NLE) the damage is already done, hence the first correction should be done in the YUV color space. But as I said, I don't know how DaVinci Resolve handles this, and the Gamut legalization step in Avisynth may not be required.

Also, I think the black level is high, e.g. the black background of the intro.

Here a proposal which 'legalizes' the colors and shifts the black level down:
SmoothTweak(contrast=0.95,saturation=0.7,HQ=true,TVrange=True, Limiter=False)
mergechroma(SmoothLevels(input_low=16,gamma=1.0,input_high=235,output_low=8,output_high=235,HQ=true,TVrange=True,Limiter=0),last) #black level adjusted with chroma copyback

Edit:
And b.t.w. the chroma really deserves some sharpening (not included in the script above).

[lansing]

The black level looks fine on the rgb parade

https://i.imgur.com/UDX1scN.jpg

I compared the RGB Parade on both the NTSC_M and NTSC_M_J captures. The blown up red in NTSC_M_J was recoverable while the other one was permanently clipped.

NTSC_M_J before and after decreasing "color boost"
https://i.imgur.com/jILdylX.jpg

NTSC_M
https://i.imgur.com/ZW76hdb.jpg

Why?

[Sharc]

Did you capture lossless in YUV or RGB? The sample you posted was AVC reencoded, so that was YUV (YV12) but this doesn't tell how it was captured. If your capture (the .avi) got converted from YUV (S-Video) to RGB it is possible that you got out-of-gamut values which are irrecoverably lost.

The NTSC_M_J after decreasing "color boost" looks fine to me. No clipping, that's essential.
I don't use DaVinci but it looks like "color boost" tweaks the contrast and saturation (in avisynth terminology), very similar to what I suggested with my script.
You can judge yourself whether the black background of the intro is "black enough" or still a bit grayish.

Can you sharpen the chroma in DaVinci? The edges would look sharper with less color smear.

[lansing]

Color boost in Davinci Resolve is a saturation/saturation curve that affects more on higher saturation while not really touching the lower one.

My original capture is in Lagarith lossless. I converted to x264 because Resolve couldn't open it.
https://i.imgur.com/5BSOWNM.jpg

The thing I don't understand is why was the red in the NTSC_M_J version not clipped like the NTSC_M.

How do I sharpen the chroma?

[Sharc]

You could also capture in YUV (YUY2) 4:2:2 rather than RGB and significantly reduce the file size (but keep an eye on potential Gamut violations).

No idea why the NTSC_M messes with the red channel. (Is it really the same frames which you compare? or did you capture to a different color space?)

Chroma sharpening in Avisynth for example:
MergeChroma(last,Spline36Resize(last,width(last)/8*4, height(last)).aWarpSharp2(depth=20).Sharpen(0.4,0.4).nnedi3_rpow2(2, cshift="Spline36Resize", fwidth=width(last), fheight=height(last)))
ChromaShiftSP(x=0.0,Y=1.0) #adjust for best luma/chroma fit

[lansing]

Oddly I couldn't reproduce the clipping anymore on my new test captures. The blown up red on both NTSC_M and NTSC_M_J versions are recoverable now. So it seems like color adjustment can be done after the conversion without problem.

Switching RGB mode in Lagarith setting to YUY2 mode makes no difference in file size.

Another thing I found is that if I load in my original capture Lagarith file and run ConvertToYV12(), the default "interlaced=false" parameter will cause chroma ghosting.


AVISource("source.avi")
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=false)
tfm()
tdecimate()

[Sharc]

Switching RGB mode in Lagarith setting to YUY2 mode makes no difference in file size.

I would have expected a smaller .avi file size in YUY2 due to the color subsampling. I made a few tests: the pixel format of the captured stream seems always to be YUV (e.g. yuv422p), even for RGB mode in Lagarith. This would explain why the filesize is the same for RGB and YUY2 mode selection; it's always YUV for S-video or composite signals, which is fine - unless you want to capture Component.

Another thing I found is that if I load in my original capture Lagarith file and run ConvertToYV12(), the default "interlaced=false" parameter will cause chroma ghosting.
One should capture VHS (VCR output signals) as interlaced and specify 'interlaced=true' when converting, because VHS is natively interlaced, even if the source is telecined or PsF. The header of the standard .avi container has however no flag to indicate "interlaced", therefore one has to state it explicitely. One may also want to specify the conversion matrix, although the default "Rec601" (for SD, based on vertical resolution) is fine.

(P.S. I just noticed that your uploaded telecined sample (x264 encoded YV12) has been encoded as progressive. It should have been encoded as interlaced, I think.)

[Sharc]

Oddly I couldn't reproduce the clipping anymore on my new test captures. The blown up red on both NTSC_M and NTSC_M_J versions are recoverable now. So it seems like color adjustment can be done after the conversion without problem.

Maybe the red clipping oddity happens for the first frame after the intro only? There seems to be some transition effect (fade-in, telecined).

[lansing]

One should capture VHS (VCR output signals) as interlaced and specify 'interlaced=true' when converting, because VHS is natively interlaced, even if the source is telecined or PsF. The header of the standard .avi container has however no flag to indicate "interlaced", therefore one has to state it explicitely. One may also want to specify the conversion matrix, although the default "Rec601" (for SD, based on vertical resolution) is fine.

(P.S. I just noticed that your uploaded telecined sample (x264 encoded YV12) has been encoded as progressive. It should have been encoded as interlaced, I think.)
Yes, the x264 sample was inherently converted to yv12 by the encoder. Though the "interlaced" parameter seems to only affect the output of yv12. There is no chroma ghosting when I convert to YUV422 or YUV444

ConvertToYUV422(interlaced=false)
tfm()
TDecimate()

[Sharc]

Yes, the x264 sample was inherently converted to yv12 by the encoder. Though the "interlaced" parameter seems to only affect the output of yv12. There is no chroma ghosting when I convert to YUV422 or YUV444

ConvertToYUV422(interlaced=false)
tfm()
TDecimate()

I assume your captured .avi is already YUV 4:2:2, interlaced. So converttoYUV422(interlaced=true) has no effect. ConverttoYUV422(interlaced=false) mixes the croma between fields when you put it before the IVTC I am afraid. I don't see that it eliminates the residual ghosting, but as I have only your YV12 progressively re-encoded AVC version I can't tell for sure.
Add santiag() or vinverse() after TDecimate if you see residual combing.

[lansing]

I assume your captured .avi is already YUV 4:2:2, interlaced. So converttoYUV422(interlaced=true) has no effect. ConverttoYUV422(interlaced=false) mixes the croma between fields when you put it before the IVTC I am afraid. I don't see that it eliminates the residual ghosting, but as I have only your YV12 progressively re-encoded AVC version I can't tell for sure.
Add santiag() or vinverse() after TDecimate if you see residual combing.

Here's a sample (https://www.mediafire.com/file/cbgy0n0zxhtzkw6/chroma+ghosting+test.avi/file) of the original capture to play around

[Sharc]

Here's a sample (https://www.mediafire.com/file/cbgy0n0zxhtzkw6/chroma+ghosting+test.avi/file) of the original capture to play around
Do you still see the same ghosting with this?
https://www.mediafire.com/file/xd12x1bczo54c0a/lansing3.mp4/file

P.S.
For capturing one should normally switch NR (noise reduction filters) off (VCR, DVD-recorder passthrough device), as these filters may cause ghosting. It is usually better to make the noise reduction in post processing.

[lansing]

Do you still see the same ghosting with this?

What I'm saying is ConvertTOYV12(interlaced=false) behaves differently from ConvertTOYUV422(interlaced=false) or ConvertTOYUV444(interlaced=false), where the latter two don't produce chroma ghosting.

[Sharc]

What I'm saying is ConvertTOYV12(interlaced=false) behaves differently from ConvertTOYUV422(interlaced=false) or ConvertTOYUV444(interlaced=false), where the latter two don't produce chroma ghosting.
The pixel format of your uploaded .avi is yuv422p means 4:2:2 subsampled. ConverttoYV12 halves the vertical chroma resolution (4:2:0). Interlace=false may however apply because the underlying video is telecined rather than true interlaced, i.e. there is no motion between fields.

[jefix]

I'm sorry if I'm asking in the wrong place. I would like to know at what point should I use NeatVideo noise reduction? Do I need to de-interlace first?
I think I need to do noise reduction before de-interlacing. Is this true?

[Sharc]

I don't know NeatVideo filters, but usually one would deinterlace before noise filtering. Few noise filters do have an "interlace-aware" setting though which typically means that they filter even and odd fields separately and then reinterlace.
Spatial and temporal filters also behave differently. When in doubt I would just deinterlace first.

[jefix]

Sharc, I think I can open the file in Adobe as interlaced.

[ReinerSchweinlin]

Maybe this archived version of the old webpage helps ?

https://web.archive.org/web/20060110050644/http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSite/us/Products/Consumer+Products/Home+Video/Expression/DV500+PLUS+Support/Ask+a+Questions_+Find+an+Answer_/Click+here+to+find+your+answers_++Ask+a+question_/Ask+your+questions+here_

[Gomes202]

Just guessing.

[PatchWorKs]

I've just buyed a CX card from aliexpress (~18€ shipped) to test the VHS-decode (https://github.com/oyvindln/vhs-decode#readme) approach...