anime vs hollywood movies

[azurenights]

Hey how are you guys??? heheheh Thought I might start off this thread with a friendly note. However more importantly is the fact that my anime encodings on svcd don't seem to play as well as my hollywood movies on svcd. What I mean by don't play as well is that in the slower motion scenes the movement doesn't seem to be smooth and there some noise is apparent. However if faster moving scenes, the scenes move more freely but there is a lot of noise as well. I am just wondering why this occurs in anime but not in normal movies. I am using cinema craft encoder CCE to encode my svcds and I used the same settings.

Test 1

Ticked Zigzag scanning order
Ticked Linear Quantisizer Scale
Luminance Setting 0-255
DC Precision Auto
Image Quality Control 10
Anti Noise Filter 2

Test 2

Ticked Linear Quantisizer Scale
Luminance Setting 0-255
DC Precision Auto
Image Quality Control 10
Anti Noise Filter 2

Test 3

Ticked Zigzag scanning order
Ticked Linear Quantisizer Scale
Luminance Setting 0-255
DC Precision Auto
Image Quality Control 17
Anti Noise Filter 2

The results were the same for all three tests and I still can't get anime to play smoothly during the slower motion scenes. Anyone else have this problem?? Hope you guys understand the problem that I am describing so I can get some feedback and hopefully solve it. Thanks

One more thing what are some good arguments for the temporalsmoother plugin in avisynth?? thanks

[Kedirekin]

Anime is a much harder animal to encode than Hollywood movies. Actually, Hollywood animation (like Titan AE) is harder to encode too, but still not nearly as hard as anime.

There are a variety of reasons, but the first (and unaviodable) is that the discrete frame drawings and fine lines are inherently hard for encoders to handle. If you look at high-motion scenes in live action film, it's a series of blurred frames. If you look at high motion in anime, it a series of sharp drawings. This series of discrete drawings with large frame-to-frame changes requires much more bitrate than the blurry live action stuff.

Now, to make suggestions point by point.

For block noise in low motion scenes, try increasing your Image Quality Priority. I typically use something between 25 and 40 for anime.

For block noise in high motion scenes, you simply need more bitrate. Since there really isn't any way to get more bitrate out of SVCD, you have to resort to tricks. First trick - use Temporal Smoother. Second trick - crop away overscan. Third trick - use IVTC if at all possible. These tricks together can significantly increase the quality of the encode.

For smooth motion, I can't recommend any one thing. There are too many variables. You might be decimating video that is inherently 29.97 fps. You might have the wrong field order. You might have changing field order.

In some cases IVTC solves the problem. In other cases, deinterlacing solves the problem (though this results in a loss of detail). And some times, nothing helps - you live with the choppiness or you give up trying to make a backup.

[azurenights]

the source I am encoding from is a pal source so I don't think I can use IVTC. I would like to use Temporal Smoother but could you please give me a quick guide of what the arguments mean??? I WOULD APPRECIATE IT A LOT because no one has been bothered to tell me. How do you know the right field order when encoding with CCE???? thanks for anymore replies

[Kedirekin]

Well, at least you don't need to worry about IVTC then.

There are two settings in TemporalSmoother (TS); radius and strength. I'm no expert, so take this with a grain of salt.

Radius is how many frames are used in the comparison/averaging. 1 (I think) means only compare this frame and the next one. 2 means compare/average this frame with the next two, and so on.

Strength (I think) controls how far pixels in the same position on different frames can vary and still be considered 'the same', and thereby be 'averaged' (I use quotes because I don't really know what I'm talking about - but I hope it makes sense anyway).

In any case, it isn't how the settings work that is important, it's the results. Use settings too high, and you'll start to notice ghosting (and a high radius will really slow down encoding). So you probably want to use settings as high as you can that don't produce any noticable adverse effect, and that don't slow down your encoding too much. For me, the slow-down stops me before I ever get close to ghosting. I typically use 2,2 or 3,3 when encoding anime.

For field order, the simplest way is to encode the same clip twice, once with odd field order, one with even, then see which plays back smoothly on your TV. If you look at the documentation for pulldown.exe (which you wouldn't normally use for PAL encoding), you may be able to change the field order without having to re-encode the clip.

And FYI: if you're using CCE, I believe there is a bug that, if you have the progressive checkbox checked, it ignores the top field first checkbox and always encodes as if that box were checked.

[azurenights]

well I know I have the right field order when encoding the anime, might increase the image quality control to 25 and see what happens. thanks

[azurenights]

just wondering does avisynth have any subtitle plugins?? most probably not right?? does temporal smoother affect the subtitles at all??? thanks

[azurenights]

I have been reading your previous posts about getting the right field order. Well I used the Tmpenc test to see if I had the right field order. The test told me to use Top Field First (field A) because the playback was smoother than Bottom Field First (field b) when I had the even-odd field filter on. However when it came to encoding I checked the Top Field First in CCE and the svcd still played back choppy. When I unchecked it, the SVCD played fine!!! I don't think this test always works or it should be the other way round. Could you enlighten me more about this?? thanks

[Kedirekin]

Personally, I think there is inconsistency in the software about field order. Some software refers to even and odd fields. Some refers to top and bottom fields. Some refer to field order A and B. I don't even trust that top field first means the same thing between different pieces of software (TMpg, CCE and pulldown.exe, for example).

To make it even more confusing, I think TMpg changed it terminology somewhere in its revision history.

So, empirically determining what is correct with the software you're using was exactly the right thing to do. Now that you've got it figured out, it should work consistently for you from here on out.

[AbuNidal]

You're wrong about the subtitle plugins for Avisynth.

In order to add DVD-subtitles I'd recommand VobSub from Gabest, which includes a native Avisynth dll.

If you prefer Avery Lee's subtitler plugin- you can use that in Avisynth as well, just like any other filter for VirtualDub.


-AbuNidal

[DDogg]

Re: field order

If memory serves me correctly, somewhere in the greedyHMA thread by TRBerry in the avisynth forum there is a foolproof test for determining field order. I think it might actually be in the GreedyHMA download. It was just a couple of avs scripts that when played made the field order obvious. Hopefully my memory is correct and I am not putting you guys on a wild goose chase.

[azurenights]

I read the GreedyHMA thing but I still don't really get it. It says to look at the diagonals to see which frame is better. Look for the diagonals??? what the hell are the diagonals?/ do they mean the diagonal lines????

could any post up a small guide to find the right field order in greedyhma in plain normal english???

thanks

i have compared both video sources one which is top field first and the second which is bottom field first frame by frame and haven't really noticed much of a difference at all

[azurenights]

don't worry about my previous post, its nonsense!!!!!!

well in the greedyhma download there are scripts that tell you whether the video is encoded top field or bottom field first!!!!

I used them to see the field order of the video i was about to encode

thanks again

[DDogg]

azurenights, so, was it easy to tell what the field orientation was? Tell us about it if you have time.

[azurenights]

its pretty easy, all you have to do is copy and paste the code into your script. The only thing that needs to be changed is the destination of your vob files. Once you have done that, load the avs file into virtualdub and press play. If the movie plays fine then you have the right field order. All you need to do after that is look at the avs script and see which script the text was copied from. If the code was copied from the topfieldfirst script then the field order is top field first. If it was copied from the bottomfieldfirst script then it is the bottom field first.

its pretty simple and works well!!!!

hopefully I explained that well enough for all you guys to understand!!!

[raistlin]

where do u set which field order for cce?

[azurenights]

In CCE click the video button and it should take you to another menu where you can change luminance, DRT precision and a whole lot of other things that I won't need to list out. The one that you are looking for is the option to encode the top field first. It is located on the left hand side second from the top. I think the option is called "upper field first". If you are using CCE 2.50 this option is checked (as in turned on) by default. Your problem ain't big all you need is to look at all the features the program has to offer. Hope this helps

[raistlin]

thx azurenights
have u found the best setting for anime dvds?

[guillep2k]

Here's a nice page (http://www.inwards.com/~dbb/) that can give some light about the subject.

Guille

[raistlin]

My source is PAl, so it doesn't need a few steps there. I've tried to follow the possible steps for PAL as closely but it doesn't really work. The output always has blocks on high motion.

[azurenights]

Yea you will find that a pretty big problem when encoding anime to svcd. There really isn't much you can do about it because of the limited bitrate you can work with for a svcd. Where are you from raistlin??? I am guessing Australia cause you said you are working with a pal source but I could be wrong. The reason why I am guessing Oz is cause I am from there as well hehehehehehe

later dude

[naoan]

holy batman necro bump! :eek: