Pass over HDR10+ and Dolby Vision information?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Thanks for these informations. So what is the better way to keep DoVi ? Profile 7 like MakeMKV ? And do you think it could be possible to add this way to DoVi tool ? Thanks.What's the make/model of your playback device and TV?

[Nico8583]

@quietvoid : Thanks, I would like to make an automated process so MakeMKV is not the best way for me. Is there a quality or compatibility difference between MakeMKV output (BL + EL + RPU in a single track) and dovi_tool (profile 7 BL + EL to single track profile 8.1) from an UHD BD source ?
Edit : The purpose is to encode to x265.
@SeeMoreDigital : Currently a Samsung QLED so without DoVi support but I plan to buy a LG or Sony later so I would like to create my MKV with HDR10+ and DoVi support. My playback device is a Nvidia Shield 2019 Pro currently.

[quietvoid]

@quietvoid : Thanks, I would like to make an automated process so MakeMKV is not the best way for me.
MakeMKV can be used in CLI, something like this: makemkvcon mkv file:/path/to/disc 1

Is there a quality or compatibility difference between MakeMKV output (BL + EL + RPU in a single track) and dovi_tool (profile 7 BL + EL to single track profile 8.1) from an UHD BD source ?
Edit : The purpose is to encode to x265.
If you plan on encoding with x265, I'm not sure how smooth the process will be if you want to keep the EL.
Otheriwse, the RPU can be used with x265 directly.

In the end, quality depends on the final playback. Only UHD disc players support profile 7 correctly, anything else is going to be the equivalent of profile 8.1.
Because the EL is not used at all. So you should keep that in mind.

[Nico8583]

Thanks quietvoid again ;)
I would like to not use MakeMKV because while is in a beta state it's free but when the final version will be released I don't know. So I just found yusesope's tool (last GAMMA version) and I can read it can do the same. So I will try it as soon as possible.
The BL+EL+RPU mux into a single track (like yusesope or MakeMKV do) would be a great improvment in dovi_tool :)

[Nico8583]

I just looked more at dovi_tool usage but the source needs to be a single track dual layer ? So a track from MakeMKV ?

[quietvoid]

I just looked more at dovi_tool usage but the source needs to be a single track dual layer ? So a track from MakeMKV ?

For what command?
The RPU, for UHD sources, is usually in the 2nd video track, which you can get by demuxing the m2ts.
That video can be used to extract the RPU.

[Nico8583]

To convert an UHD Blu Ray to profile 8.1. It supports only M2TS as input ? What about if a playlist contains multiple M2TS ?
Same question to extract RPU from an UHD Blu Ray in order to encode with x265 ? And do you if it's possible to encode while keeping both HDR10+ and DoVi metadata ? Thanks.

[quietvoid]

To convert an UHD Blu Ray to profile 8.1. It supports only M2TS as input ?No, it supports any container for HEVC but you need to use ffmpeg to pipe the data, there are examples in the readme.

What about if a playlist contains multiple M2TS ?You need to merge them into a single file first.

Same question to extract RPU from an UHD Blu Ray in order to encode with x265 ?Same principle as previous, you just need to mux the whole title and then use ffmpeg with dovi_tool.

And do you if it's possible to encode while keeping both HDR10+ and DoVi metadata ? Thanks.Yes, I explained this already here: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1934341#post1934341

[Nico8583]

Thanks again for all your answers.
So if I want to extract RPU from an UHD BD (FEL or MEL so 2 tracks) to use it with x265, I don't need to use MakeMKV but I can use "ffmpeg -i input.wantiwant -c:v copy -vbsf hevc_mp4toannexb -f hevc - | dovi_tool -m 2 extract-rpu - -o RPU.bin" ?
Because the doc says "Extracts Dolby Vision RPU from an single track dual layer encoded file."
Thanks !

[quietvoid]

Thanks again for all your answers.
So if I want to extract RPU from an UHD BD (FEL or MEL so 2 tracks) to use it with x265, I don't need to use MakeMKV but I can use "ffmpeg -i input.wantiwant -c:v copy -vbsf hevc_mp4toannexb -f hevc - | dovi_tool -m 2 extract-rpu - -o RPU.bin" ?
Because the doc says "Extracts Dolby Vision RPU from an single track dual layer encoded file."
Thanks !
Yes, you explicitly need to demux/pipe the video track which contains the RPU, so the EL.
If it's a single track containing both (such as what MakeMKV produces), then there's only one track so the examples work fine.

I will fix the documentation.

[Nico8583]

Thanks ! I did some tests, for someone who is searching to try it :
With an UHD BD (replace playlist number and paths, video track index if needed) : ffmpeg.exe -playlist 123 -i bluray:"D:\PathToTheUHDBDFolder" -map 0:v:1 -c:v copy -vbsf hevc_mp4toannexb -f hevc - | dovi_tool -m 2 extract-rpu - -o RPU.bin
With a MKV from MakeMKV (single track dual layer) : ffmpeg.exe -i "D:\Movie.mkv" -c:v copy -vbsf hevc_mp4toannexb -f hevc - | dovi_tool -m 2 extract-rpu - -o RPU.bin
With a MKV from mkvtoolnix (double track) (replace video track index if needed) : ffmpeg.exe -i "D:\Movie.mkv" -map 0:v:1 -c:v copy -vbsf hevc_mp4toannexb -f hevc - | dovi_tool -m 2 extract-rpu - -o RPU.bin
RPU is bit to bit identical for all outputs

[Nico8583]

Another question : is it possible to convert profile 7 dual track (BL + EL) to profile 8.1 with one command ? Or I need to extract BL track + extract RPU from EL track then inject to BL track and remux BL track to MKV ?
And if I do that, does the BL track will keep HDR10+ metadata if include ? Thanks.

[quietvoid]

Another question : is it possible to convert profile 7 dual track (BL + EL) to profile 8.1 with one command ?
Use the convert command: https://github.com/quietvoid/dovi_tool#convert
The examples do exactly what you're looking for.
You need a single video file first, though.

Otherwise, just extract the RPU and inject it back in the BL, yes.

And if I do that, does the BL track will keep HDR10+ metadata if include ? Thanks.
Yes.

[Nico8583]

Ok so the convert command can do that from a MakeMKV file. Or do you know another software than MakeMKV or yusesope just to combine BL+EL+RPU into a single track ? Thanks.

[quietvoid]

Or do you know another software than MakeMKV or yusesope just to combine BL+EL+RPU into a single track ? Thanks.
Not that I'm aware of.

[Yomiko]

I can think of two approaches but I don't know which one should be preferred.

1) Encode as HDR10, then inject-rpu with dovi_tool
2) Encode with x265 Dolby Vision options

[Nico8583]

Thanks quietvoid and inject RPU can work only with raw stream ? Is it possible to inject RPU to a stream inside a MKV ? Thanks

[quietvoid]

Thanks quietvoid and inject RPU can work only with raw stream ? Is it possible to inject RPU to a stream inside a MKV ? Thanks

Only raw stream currently.
In the future I hope it might be possible to make it possible to pipe from any container.

The output is always going to be the raw HEVC, though.

[mattl0]

Only raw stream currently.
In the future I hope it might be possible to make it possible to pipe from any container.

The output is always going to be the raw HEVC, though.

That is enough That would save a lot of time .

Question 1 with profile 8.1 example : Since injecting rpu into a BL HEVC is longer than simply use the convert command , are they both the same? I did some test and the rpu after each case have the same weight. But are they Injected the same way in the final hevc output?

Question 2 for profile 7 (can be applied to mel too): i saw that it is possible to have a BL and an EL file without rpu. Just need to mux both BL and EL.

With this approch, do you think it would be beneficial to mux the BL with the el, and then inject rpu generated from a json.

So we would have a p7 fel with an new rpu rpu.

A command to completly extract the rpu (so remove rpu to get one hevc file BL+el without rpu /. or two hevc BL + ( El minus the rpu)), would be noce if you ever feel like it, have the time and find it useful. The idea can be wrong too.

[mattl0]

Last one sorry,

I have a lg c1. It can read profile 8.1 Dolby vision for int player or plex. But how can I know that the rpu is really processed by the tv? Maybe you have a hint for this . Thank you @quietvoid .

A little of topic …maybe someone have an answer here…
I also have an android ugoos am6b+. But I have not convinced that it is decoding dolby p7 fel ok for the rgb tunneling. Resolution is always set to 1080p like if there are a certification limit or wtv else. Not sure if forcing it back to 2160p is ok. I have the feeling that the it is rendered in 1080p and then converted to 2160p for some reason . The process seems shady; from command line, I also can force the box to swtich to 10 bit when in tunneling mode , and the tv accept it…i do not know if this is normal, and what it does mean

[quietvoid]

Question 1 with profile 8.1 example : Since injecting rpu into a BL HEVC is longer than simply use the convert command , are they both the same? I did some test and the rpu after each case have the same weight. But are they Injected the same way in the final hevc output? If you only have a video that is already Dolby Vision, then just use convert.
Injecting is only useful for videos that were already encoded in HDR10, but don't contain Dolby Vision metadata.


Question 2 for profile 7 (can be applied to mel too): i saw that it is possible to have a BL and an EL file without rpu. Just need to mux both BL and EL. That makes no sense, the EL always contains the RPUs.

There isn't really a use case where editing an existing profile 7 is any useful.


Last one sorry,

I have a lg c1. It can read profile 8.1 Dolby vision for int player or plex. But how can I know that the rpu is really processed by the tv? Maybe you have a hint for this . Thank you @quietvoid .You can try this file: https://forum.makemkv.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=113537#p113537
You might have to convert it to mp4 for the TV player.

[benwaggoner]

Last one sorry,

I have a lg c1. It can read profile 8.1 Dolby vision for int player or plex. But how can I know that the rpu is really processed by the tv? Maybe you have a hint for this . Thank you @quietvoid .
The LG will go into a "Dolby Vision" picture mode playing DoVi content. So just hit your settings button and see what picture mode it is in.

A little of topic …maybe someone have an answer here…
I also have an android ugoos am6b+. But I have not convinced that it is decoding dolby p7 fel ok for the rgb tunneling. Resolution is always set to 1080p like if there are a certification limit or wtv else. Not sure if forcing it back to 2160p is ok. I have the feeling that the it is rendered in 1080p and then converted to 2160p for some reason . The process seems shady; from command line, I also can force the box to swtich to 10 bit when in tunneling mode , and the tv accept it…i do not know if this is normal, and what it does mean
RGB 444 takes 1.5x the bandwidth of YUV 422. Depending on HDMI ports and cable, it's not uncommon for there to be enough bandwidth for YUV 422 but not RGB 444, so switching to RGB forces down resolution or frame rate.

You'll want both output and input to be HDMI 2.0, with at least an 18 Gbps rated HDMI cable.

You can make it work with older HDMI versions, but not at RGB 444 4Kp60.

[PoeBear]

Does the VUI base layer stuff on our custom MEL Profile 8.1 hatchetjobs matter? Per the specs (Dolby Vision Profiles and Levels, V1.3.3), Dolby requires a center-left chromaloc on the video track. But with a UHD Blu-ray/Profile 7 video track, Dolby requires top left chromaloc

Does that mean when playing the DV layer, it's gonna shift all my reds? Or is that something that would only affect if it were an FEL profile 8.1, as it would be expecting a different chroma layout to apply its 12-bit coloring?

[mattl0]

If you only have a video that is already Dolby Vision, then just use convert.
Injecting is only useful for videos that were already encoded in HDR10, but don't contain Dolby Vision metadata.


That makes no sense, the EL always contains the RPUs.

There isn't really a use case where editing an existing profile 7 is any useful.


You can try this file: https://forum.makemkv.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=113537#p113537
You might have to convert it to mp4 for the TV player.

Thanks ! This works perfectly i can see all the changes on the video playback on my c1 with internal app.

[mattl0]

:thanks:The LG will go into a "Dolby Vision" picture mode playing DoVi content. So just hit your settings button and see what picture mode it is in.


RGB 444 takes 1.5x the bandwidth of YUV 422. Depending on HDMI ports and cable, it's not uncommon for there to be enough bandwidth for YUV 422 but not RGB 444, so switching to RGB forces down resolution or frame rate.

You'll want both output and input to be HDMI 2.0, with at least an 18 Gbps rated HDMI cable.

You can make it work with older HDMI versions, but not at RGB 444 4Kp60.

[quietvoid]

Does the VUI base layer stuff on our custom MEL Profile 8.1 hatchetjobs matter? Per the specs (Dolby Vision Profiles and Levels, V1.3.3), Dolby requires a center-left chromaloc on the video track. But with a UHD Blu-ray/Profile 7 video track, Dolby requires top left chromaloc

Does that mean when playing the DV layer, it's gonna shift all my reds? Or is that something that would only affect if it were an FEL profile 8.1, as it would be expecting a different chroma layout to apply its 12-bit coloring?

The specification only mentions that VUI parameters are required for profile 8.1
Dolby Vision bitstreams for all profiles other than profile 7 may use center-left or top-left luma-chroma siting.
A chroma sample location type VUI is mandatory unless center-left siting is used.
If a chroma sample location type VUI is present, it must be accurate

To me this means that if the base layer was not processed further, and uses top-left, then it is fine.
Usually people reencode profile 7 as profile 8.1 with top-left, and it seems to be OK.

For profile 7 with an EL, it is probably to make sure both video streams are aligned, yes.

Supposedly the new default is top-left for anything HDR10.

[PoeBear]

The specification only mentions that VUI parameters are required for profile 8.1

Yes, this is why I'm asking. The current trick to getting MEL playback in a container is to repackage it as Profile 8.1, but the HDR10 base layer will be out of spec (unless you change it at encoding)

I'm asking will there be playback issues due to the out-of-spec file? If so, will they be with MEL/FEL playback, or just FEL?

FEL testing really seems impossible for that anyway anyway, with nothing being able to play FEL back in container format, so it was more of a technical question to those that know the DV specs

Usually people reencode profile 7 as profile 8.1 with top-left, and it seems to be OK.

"Seems to be" is what I want to avoid. One can easily miss a small chroma shift and think everything is fine, especially if there's not a known correct image to compare against. If there's a spec, I'd like to adhere to it to avoid future problems. Especially since the Profile 8.1 thing is already a workaround due to a lot of TVs/devices not able to playback DV Profile 7.1

Supposedly the new default is top-left for anything HDR10

Yes when encoding for HDR10 you would set chromaloc to 2 (top-left), but that would go against Dolby's specs for Profile 8.1, which require for center-left (chromaloc 0), hence my inquiry

[SeeMoreDigital]

You can try this file: https://forum.makemkv.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=113537#p113537That's a most impressive sample quietvoid ;)

[quietvoid]

Yes when encoding for HDR10 you would set chromaloc to 2 (top-left), but that would go against Dolby's specs for Profile 8.1, which require for center-left (chromaloc 0), hence my inquiry
I'm confused, my quote says that profile 8.1 can use top-left, and is not required to be center-left.

The conflicting information seems to be coming from the table, where it says that BL signal cross-compatibility ID 1 should be using center-left.
But not far down it says both can be used, for profiles other than 7.

[PoeBear]

But not far down it says both can be used, for profiles other than 7.

I guess that's where I'm getting confused. Then it says "As of the effective date of this specification, top-left chroma siting is not tested during Dolby Vision SoC or device certification"

Does that mean its device dependent on if it would work or not? Why would they put only center-left in the table, but then say that top-left is okay, but that they say they won't even test for it it? I guess I'm just confused by Dolby's documentation itself... :confused:

[quietvoid]

Yeah it's not very clear. Either way most (even UHD disc) players ignore the chroma location.
FWIW there are uses of profile 8.1 in streaming services such as Hulu, and they are encoded with top-left in the VUI.

[von Suppé]

Interesting and highly educational thread. For someone new to HDR10+ and Dolby Vision, I love the questions asked & answered here on how to be able to handle metadata. And for the available tools I take my hat off to their creator.
Before I go try & do some reencoding some HDR10+/DV content myself, there is something not clear in my understanding the basics. A questions raises about HDR10+.

How is HDR10+ build up? Does it consist of an SDR videostream plus dynamic metadata? In other words, if I should take the dynamic metadata out of a HDR10+ videostream, would "just" a SDR videostream be left?
Or is there more to it? Hope you don't mind me asking.

[quietvoid]

How is HDR10+ build up? Does it consist of an SDR videostream plus dynamic metadata? In other words, if I should take the dynamic metadata out of a HDR10+ videostream, would "just" a SDR videostream be left?
Or is there more to it? Hope you don't mind me asking.

HDR10+ is contained within a HDR10 video, so if you take out the metadata you end up with regular HDR10.
Same case with AV1, which can use ITU T-35 metadata OBUs to transport HDR10+ metadata.

[benwaggoner]

Yeah it's not very clear. Either way most (even UHD disc) players ignore the chroma location.
FWIW there are uses of profile 8.1 in streaming services such as Hulu, and they are encoded with top-left in the VUI.
And I wouldn't be confident that the stream actually has the chroma located where flagged.

[von Suppé]

HDR10+ is contained within a HDR10 video, so if you take out the metadata you end up with regular HDR10.
Thanks for your explanation.
On UHD-BD there can be both a HDR10+ BL and Dolby Vision EL. I do understand correctly now, that in case of DV playback, the HDR10+ metadata is simply ignored and instead the DV RPU metadata will be used?

[quietvoid]

Thanks for your explanation.
On UHD-BD there can be both a HDR10+ BL and Dolby Vision EL. I do understand correctly now, that in case of DV playback, the HDR10+ metadata is simply ignored and instead the DV RPU metadata will be used?

I don't know, either the player makes a decision to prefer HDR10+/Dolby Vision or there's a configuration for it.

[shroomM]

Hi guys,

very interesting thread indeed, lots of great info!

I have a bit of a reverse question - if I have a DoVi Profile 8.1 stream - can that somehow be converted to Profile 7?

I assume I'd need to generate the EL - my understanding is that MEL is something that could potentially be generated relatively easily?

Then I guess I'd have to use the dovi_tool with convert and option "1" -"Converts the RPU to be MEL compatible.".

Then mux everything in a m2ts stream, one track the HDR10 base stream, the other EL+RPU.

Are there tools available today that would enable me to do this?

[von Suppé]

Wow, I must say this is fun. I'm learning more & more as I go by.
I did a few test re-encodes. With HDR10+ things went well. With Dolby Vision RPU to 8.1 things went also well. Both formats are triggered on my tv and playback is smooth.

In latest mkvtoolnix, I tried to create a (both HDR10+ and DV EL) dual-track mkv.
As base-layer, I imported a HDR10+ stream, which is a re-encoded HDR10 stream with injected HDR10+ metadata. This video on itself play fine and HDR10+ is triggered on my tv.

I imported an unaltered DoVi EL, which was demuxed from the UHD-BD (in this case, FEL + RPU). Since dual-track DoVi being profile 7, I thought it isn't necessary to extract RPU, change to another profile and inject back into FEL.
After muxing them together with latest mkvtoolnix, I can't get Dolby Vision triggered. Also altering settings in my player resulted in only HDR10+ playback. Which on itself looked good.

Is there anything I missed or is this not possible?

[quietvoid]

Hi guys,

very interesting thread indeed, lots of great info!

I have a bit of a reverse question - if I have a DoVi Profile 8.1 stream - can that somehow be converted to Profile 7?

I assume I'd need to generate the EL - my understanding is that MEL is something that could potentially be generated relatively easily?

Then I guess I'd have to use the dovi_tool with convert and option "1" -"Converts the RPU to be MEL compatible.".

Then mux everything in a m2ts stream, one track the HDR10 base stream, the other EL+RPU.

Are there tools available today that would enable me to do this?

I've pretty much answered this here: https://github.com/quietvoid/dovi_tool/issues/44
tl;dr it's complicated and no public software solution for it.


I imported an unaltered DoVi EL, which was demuxed from the UHD-BD (in this case, FEL + RPU). Since dual-track DoVi being profile 7, I thought it isn't necessary to extract RPU, change to another profile and inject back into FEL.
After muxing them together with latest mkvtoolnix, I can't get Dolby Vision triggered. Also altering settings in my player resulted in only HDR10+ playback. Which on itself looked good.

Is there anything I missed or is this not possible?

Support with Matroska is limited to single track files currently, see https://gitlab.com/mbunkus/mkvtoolnix/-/wikis/Dolby-Vision-support-status

[Nico8583]

So just to know, mkvtoolnix can't mux BL + EL as DoVi but only as standalone streams ?

[quietvoid]

So just to know, mkvtoolnix can't mux BL + EL as DoVi but only as standalone streams ?

Right, it doesn't mux the two together into a single track.

[von Suppé]

Support with Matroska is limited to single track files currently, see https://gitlab.com/mbunkus/mkvtoolnix/-/wikis/Dolby-Vision-support-status
Thank you for clearing this, quietvoid. I hope mosu will add DoVi dualtrack support in the near future.

Then, as for creating a singletrack video with both HDR10+ and DoVi (no FEL differential video-data, just RPU from MEL or FEL),
And do you if it's possible to encode while keeping both HDR10+ and DoVi metadata ?
Yes, I explained this already here: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1934341#post1934341
Please bear with me. I have read that thread a couple of times but I'm still confused. Am I to understand that I can just add HDR10+ metadata by injecting the metadata.json into a profile 8.1 DoVi stream?
And/or vice versa, adding 8.1 RPU by injecting RPU.bin into a HDR10+ stream?

[shroomM]

I've pretty much answered this here: https://github.com/quietvoid/dovi_tool/issues/44
tl;dr it's complicated and no public software solution for it.

Wow, ok, interesting, thank you for the reply.

I know it's probably futile, but part of me wants to get it working. :)

So if my understanding is correct, I'd need to:

1. prepare a MEL that would have the same exact frame types and order as the BL
2. recreate the NLQ data - I'm not sure exactly what this is. Can it actually be recreated? Is it per-title or is it the same across all content?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it seems that user in that issue thread made it work somehow.
Do you mind if I ask questions there if he's willing to share the results / procedure?

[quietvoid]

Please bear with me. I have read that thread a couple of times but I'm still confused. Am I to understand that I can just add HDR10+ metadata by injecting the metadata.json into a profile 8.1 DoVi stream?
And/or vice versa, adding 8.1 RPU by injecting RPU.bin into a HDR10+ stream?Yes, that's how the inject commands work.



2. recreate the NLQ data - I'm not sure exactly what this is. Can it actually be recreated? Is it per-title or is it the same across all content?
Since you're going for MEL, it should be the same all the time.
This is the part of the code for modifying FEL to MEL: https://github.com/quietvoid/dovi_tool/blob/main/dolby_vision/src/rpu/rpu_data_nlq.rs#L97

At this point it's probably simpler for me to just add support for it.

[shroomM]

Since you're going for MEL, it should be the same all the time.
This is the part of the code for modifying FEL to MEL: https://github.com/quietvoid/dovi_tool/blob/main/dolby_vision/src/rpu/rpu_data_nlq.rs#L97

At this point it's probably simpler for me to just add support for it.

Nice, thanks for the pointer.

Heh, well, if you're gonna add it, that's surely the easiest for me :)

Otherwise, I'll have to look into Rust - my knowledge of it is a little ... rusty :)

[quietvoid]

It should be possible to do 8 to MEL now, using the git main branch.
I'll update this with a link to binaries soon.

See here for binaries: https://github.com/quietvoid/dovi_tool/actions/runs/1435034743

[von Suppé]

Okay, I'm getting there more & more. Thanks quietvoid, I simply wasn't aware that it's possible to inject both types of metadata, doh...

Mkvtoolnix not supporting dualtrack DoVi, for FEL I tried creating a mkv another way. First, I muxed the re-encoded HDR10+ stream and the original FEL (no changing of profile) together into BD with tsMuxer. Next, I imported the resulting BD in MakeMKV and remuxed back into mkv. This seems to work out okay.
I'm wondering, is there a way to not have to do this in these two steps? Or any other, better way?

[quietvoid]

MakeMKV supports the dual track MKVs, and is able to mux them back into a single one.
So you can skip the tsMuxer step.

[von Suppé]

MakeMKV supports the dual track MKVs...
Hey, I'm lost now. What dual-track mkv do you mean that MakeMKV is supporting? Don't tell me it's the non-working dual-track I created earlier with mkvtoolnix?

[Nico8583]

MakeMKV can make a single track (BL+EL+RPU) MKV from an UHD BD dual track