What are some top video renderers?

[Yog_Sothoth]

I know that madvr is considered the best, but I need some alternatives, since my hardware does not always allow to use it with proper performance.

I used to use Enhanced Video Renderer (custom preset). But now I noticed that in direct comparision, its quality is much worse than madvr's. At the same time, I've tried several other renderers and some of them, I think, look better than EVR and maybe even no worse than madvr. I've tried madvr, evr, Direct3D 11 Video Renderer, Direct3D9 Video Renderer, Haali Video Renderer (although, it seems that when I choose it, instead, the player loads Direct3D9 Video Renderer for some reason), MPC Video Renderer. I'm not sure if I'm able to determine which one of them gives the best quality, so I need your help.

I'm trying to switch from MPC Home Cinema to Pot Player since it has auto switching profile options.

I also noticed that sometimes its built-in decoder works faster than LAV decoder, and sometimes vice versa. And also I noticed that sometimes built-in decoder drops frames when used with madvr, while LAV decoder doesn't, with the same file. So I'm interested in that aspect as well.

[aufkrawall]

When doing Jinc 2D scaling, mpv is much (e.g. ~3x on Polaris) faster than madVR and quality is the same. It's also much faster than EVR when using bilinear scaling, I can clearly see that on my mobile Gemini Lake SoC.
Though other aspects like the deband filter or madVR's smart separation of chroma up- and image downscaling are not directly comparable.
mpv's D3D11 renderer afaik also doesn't rely on bad APIs like D3D9 at all, so it should be less prone to driver breakage.

[Yog_Sothoth]

When doing Jinc 2D scaling, mpv is much (e.g. ~3x on Polaris) faster than madVR and quality is the same. It's also much faster than EVR when using bilinear scaling, I can clearly see that on my mobile Gemini Lake SoC.
Though other aspects like the deband filter or madVR's smart separation of chroma up- and image downscaling are not directly comparable.
mpv's D3D11 renderer afaik also doesn't rely on bad APIs like D3D9 at all, so it should be less prone to driver breakage.

I didn't understand half of what you said, but as far as I understand, you suggest me using mpv, the player, and it has its own renderer? I've heard about it, but never used it, but, wow! it really is super fast! But are you sure about the quality? I tried comparing through screenshots, here's an example:
potplayer with dx11 renderer:
https://imgur.com/XnOM9Dc
mpv:
https://imgur.com/W9bsRLC
I think the first one is noticeably clearer. These are downscales from 4k film.

[stax76]

Defaults are not HQ.

[DanilaZabiaka]

As for me its better to limit levels add noise - as for me I dont like when image in same time is very dark and bright, its not natural
https://i.imgur.com/S3QUB6t.jpg
my shader pack for potplayer (debanding, levels - in potplayer and MPC it wrong, noise)
https://www.upload.ee/files/11303646/PxShader.7z.html

[pirlouy]

In your mpv.conf file, try these settings (HQ):

gpu-context=d3d11
gpu-api=d3d11
profile=gpu-hq
scale=ewa_lanczossharp
cscale=ewa_lanczossharp

I guess there are better settings, but none can be as good as madshi's NGU algorithm for those searching perfection, but if your source is good enough, it is very hard to see differences when watching your movie or TV show. Plus you don't have coil whine.

If you want madVR smooth motion (not good for your screenshot comparison):
video-sync=display-resample
interpolation=yes

If you want to use hardware decoding (even d3d11 deinterlacing works, compared to madVR):
hwdec=d3d11va
vf=d3d11vpp=deint=yes:interlaced-only=yes

mpv powerful key bindings + powerful configuration file + rapidity + quality = default player (for me).
Unfortunately, I use 23Hz on my TV (in order to use Samsung 120 Hz interpolation, even if 4:2:2) and mpv can't change refresh rate, so I launch my files with madVR then use mpv.

[DanilaZabiaka]

>In your mpv.conf file, try these settings (HQ):
Its bullshit and fake of coders. Everything could have GUI. Text config is needless, if you must change critical settings with text, there is something wrong

WTF is HQ? High quality? What kind of quality? Compressed video has problems cause it does not have enough details like 'noise'

You dont need just decode compressed video, you also should add details which are lost. Correct levels and colors

Even old CRT TV have sliders, wtf why do you think you need to change something with text config in 2020 manually?

There is Apple, Android, >95% of users stay on smartphones with graphic interface. These people who force user to fuck with configs are crazy. Software could be ready out of box, but PC developers are crazy

[stax76]

Nobody forces you to use it, you are simply not educated enough for it and probably also not smart enough.

[DanilaZabiaka]

Haha, ur stupid its not an argument, why not discuss something?
If normal guy not agree with some statement, he can disapprove some arguments

I know how modern technologies works - all you need is just show that you are smart. If you can write something in text config - you are smart and professional.
Everybody can move sliders or switch checkbox. Smart guy can write something like hackerman

What is the difference between d3d9 and d3d11 for video? May be d3d11 'faster' but how is it better? Video/audio compression based on psychoacoustic models

Does 'hackerman' knows psychoacoustic models, psychology?

No :D

He just can type some text. All he can is to provide some screenshots and 'do you see - another screenshot is more detailed have more colors more resolution'

He does not know history or how something works - if something have words HQ, UltraHD, 10bit so its good, more is better

But actually not. Coders and hackermens are very bad in ergonomic, psychology, they cant think. There is a lot of bad things in modern video, and its not render problem. Its possible to fix that, but it has nothing common with 'just write HQ in config file'

[DanilaZabiaka]

Look at Mario for example
There is 'original' png lossless png Mario 194 KB
https://i.imgur.com/7bFBGz6.png
Yeah, its 'ideal', but you cant see this is real world

Its gif mario, 63.3KB. Reduced pallete
But it uses DITHERING and so it looks more natural and not so smooth like 'ideal' png
https://i.imgur.com/JsMFhY9.gif

What else? It's 653KB Mario, still PNG, but its size is 3x bigger
https://i.imgur.com/3JepujL.png

Why? I added noise and now surfaces looks more natural. Also I changed levels, black point is 16, white is 236

So it looks better than 'original' Mario, but it takes 3x bigger file size with noise, I need it to make surfaces more realistic. Of course png cant compress that well. Especially moving compressors. Nobody cared about it in analog/crt time, but with hi-res display its actual question

The irony is that 'old lossy' gif looks more natural than 'lossless png'

Video Compression operation must ignore small details like noise, but you can restore it. Renders do not restore it, refresh rate does not restore it, ultra-hd makes picture worse for some reason, HDR does not cares about it. Yes, you can use huge bitrate and force to keep some details, but anyway compressors destroys them even on bluray

[DanilaZabiaka]

Let's see how video compressors works
I use this https://www.office-converter.com/PNG-to-MP4
After conversation of noisy image I get 10.8 KB file. Okay, great, but how does it looks like?
https://i.imgur.com/VqNMo17.png

In PNG its 339KB (if save in paint like previous images, its 273 kb, whatever), but it has no noise, compressor of only 1 frame destroys it. What about 24FPS with k-frames?

Which HQ render fix that?

[DanilaZabiaka]

Lets take mp4 image and apply noise (and debanding) shader again (without levels correction now)
It's 615KB image
https://i.imgur.com/ANQ2RI3.png

I wanna say that shaders could help image. Also, its 5:39, i still dont wanna sleep so i made this
Also, these MadVR are just a fake, cause I dont know software or technologies with cares about natural view, they should be able at least to add some noise, make debanding, correct levels. As I know technologies now are opposite and paranoic about noise removal and how to give to user more synthetic image with crazy colors like HDR oled 0-255 range on lcd

[Yog_Sothoth]

Ooff. I see you were having fun while I was away. Anyway, I made a significant discovery which settled the matter. One particular hw-decoder - d3d11 - works much faster than any other, and with it, I can actually play some files, like 4k x264, using madvr, which I couldn't do before. So it's almost any file, I can play with these settings. For more "heavy" ones, I can use the same decoder, but with Direct3D 11 Video Renderer. POTplayer allows to create corresponding profiles for different files playing and automatically switch between them while opening a file.

So, while I find mpv pretty interesting and fast player, I don't see any significant advantages over my setup. It doesn't seem there's any quality difference between it and Direct3D 11 Video Renderer.

Btf, there is though one problem with POTplayer. I don't know how to set proper subtitles switching, LAV splitter doesn't do it with POTplayer for some reason.

[QBhd]

Just what are you trying to do with subtitles? Subtitles work just fine with PotPlayer and LAV. I have mine setup up to only display forced subs.

QB

[Yog_Sothoth]

You probably have a simple option to only display forced subs, but I need advanced settings to work. They don't.

[QBhd]

Again, what are you trying to do? I have used PotPlayer forever and LAV even longer.

QB

[Yog_Sothoth]

Again, I'm trying to use my advanced subtitles settings from LAV splitter and they don't work.

[clsid]

You must disable the internal codecs of Potplayer if you want to use LAV Splitter. The player may also be overriding the language choices, so disable any language settings in the player itself.

[Yog_Sothoth]

Yea, I've tried it all.

[QBhd]

Clearly you have it all figured out and don't actually need any help... I am sorry I thought otherwise.

QB

[Yog_Sothoth]

Em... No, nothing changed, I still can't make the subtitles advanced settings work.

[Pulstar]

I'm sorry I had to necro this thread to ask a specific question since MPC Video Renderer lacks its own topic/forum, but what is meant by dim lighting and can it adjusted, for HDR content or otherwise?

[Charky]

Many of you are already aware of it (I recognized a few names on the JRiver forum) bur JRiver now has created its own in-house renderer called JRVR, actively developed by Hendrik/nevcairel (LAV filters) : https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,130657.0.html

The wiki : https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/JRVR_-_JRiver_Video_Renderer

It's in active development but already has everything I need : HDR passthrough, dynamic tone mapping, framerate matching, quality downscaling and upscaling.

In their own words :

JRVR was designed around the following key concepts

Cross-Platform : A cross-platform renderer allows us to offer a consistent video experience on all supported platforms, on Windows, Linux and Mac

High-Quality Video : High-Quality processing and presentation of the videos is the primary goal of JRVR. Including full support for HDR and other modern video technologies.

Ease of Use ("It just works!") : The experience should be good out of the box, and only get better with a bit of configuration, and not require hours of research to tune hundreds of options

Efficiency/Scalability : Low-end machines can still play video just fine. And we want to enable them to do so in high-quality. At the same time, faster machines can use more advanced features to get even more out of the videos.

In summary, the goal is for JRVR to offer a high-quality video experience for everyone, without requiring expensive hardware, or extensive knowledge and configuration.
While there will always be a niche for more advanced features in madVR and others, JRVR aims to cover 99% of everything else.

[toniash]

Many of you are already aware of it (I recognized a few names on the JRiver forum) bur JRiver now has created its own in-house renderer called JRVR, actively developed by Hendrik/nevcairel (LAV filters)

Only for JRiver? not for use with Potplayer or MPC?

[dbcooper]

Many of you are already aware of it (I recognized a few names on the JRiver forum) bur JRiver now has created its own in-house renderer called JRVR, actively developed by Hendrik/nevcairel (LAV filters) : https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,130657.0.html

The wiki : https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/JRVR_-_JRiver_Video_Renderer

It's in active development but already has everything I need : HDR passthrough, dynamic tone mapping, framerate matching, quality downscaling and upscaling.

In their own words :

A very interesting development! Thank you for posting that.

[Charky]

Only for JRiver? not for use with Potplayer or MPC?
AFAIK it's only in JRiver. It's a bit of a letdown since the JRiver UI is (IMO of course) a mess. But if you can live with that, you have a new option :)

[JimH]

MC29 is out now on the forum. Lots of changes in JRVR.

[JimH]

... since the JRiver UI is (IMO of course) a mess. ...
It can be customized. https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Simplified_Interface

[v0lt]

I'm sorry I had to necro this thread to ask a specific question since MPC Video Renderer lacks its own topic/forum, but what is meant by dim lighting and can it adjusted, for HDR content or otherwise?
No.
It's just the DXVA_VideoLighting (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/ddi/dxva/ne-dxva-_dxva_videolighting) parameter of the DXVA_ExtendedFormat (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/ddi/dxva/ns-dxva-_dxva_extendedformat) structure, which is found in the VIDEOINFOHEADER2 structure of the renderer's input media type. :)

[huhn]

did you try dim and dark out?
it's supposed to change the gamma but how would it do that it doesn't know the gamma of the display just the room lightning...

[Pulstar]

Thanks for the replies, but for 2K res the renderer seems to be not good at upscaling videos regarding of setting so I reverted to madVR nightly for the time being, despite being more resource-intensive.

[v0lt]

did you try dim and dark out?
it's supposed to change the gamma but how would it do that it doesn't know the gamma of the display just the room lightning...
The video renderer has no control over this. This is the video stream parameter that comes after the decoder, which is usually just an empty value. The value "dim*" only indicates that the value is not set and will most likely be used by default.
It's in my link above.
DXVA_VideoLighting_Unknown
Specifies that the video lighting condition is not specified. The default is dim.
This is a very strange parameter and it is unlikely that anyone has used it. It is just for information in MPC VR.

[huhn]

i'm just interest if it works.

it's maybe a cheap way for low end system to change the gamma.
why would a decoder know your lighting condition...

[Sunspark]

The cheapest way for me to change the gamma, is to use the monitor's menu. The Dell I have, in the menus there is a gamma choice between PC and Mac. The old Mac gamma was 1.8 which I find good in well-lit conditions.

[Schwartz]

Back when I used mpv on Linux a couple of years ago on an Intel GMA X4500MHD, it took more processing power to do low quality OpenGL (I think that was with Bilinear) than using Windows, EVR-CP and standard Bicubic. Things may have gotten better since then. EVR Sync produced occasional dropped frames but was otherwise ok.

-> In low power scenarios EVR-CP is fine. It's one of the lightest on resources and produces "ok" visuals. MPC-HC on Windows worked better than mpv on Linux with cheapest settings.

Also, I recently compared mpv on Windows 10 with madVR, and found that the Chroma upsampling on mpv even when using the Bilateral scaler was nowhere near as good and crisp as madVRs Bilateral. But madVR does tend to use a bit more processing power. FSRCNNX and NGU are both good. The issue is Chroma.

-> In high power scenarios madVR can't be beat. mpv with HQ settings is also "perfectly fine" but just doesn't edge out madVR. It would be good on hardware that is struggling to make full use of madVR.

At least that's been my experience. I make no claim to universality but I fiddled, compared, stared at way too many image stills and CPU/GPU usage graphs.

[OrangeColaJuice]

If you want to compare a custom solution to another custom solution try this shader with MPV.
KrigBilateral.glsl (https://gist.github.com/igv/a015fc885d5c22e6891820ad89555637)
glsl-shader="C:\Apps\mpv\shaders\KrigBilateral.glsl"
gpu-shader-cache-dir="C:\Apps\MPVshadercache"
^ above for your config or as parameters on startup

Use it alone, without any other custom shader.

[strumf666]

Is madvr still the best renderer? I am possibly looking for another render because of my issue with hdr passthrough/switching.

[kopija]

Is madvr still the best renderer? I am possibly looking for another render because of my issue with hdr passthrough/switching.

For me it is.
This (https://github.com/Aleksoid1978/VideoRenderer/releases) may be a cure for your problems.

[richardpl]

madvr is dead project/code do not use it.

[tebasuna51]

madvr is dead project/code do not use it.
We know than free software madvr is dead, but maybe you can recommend another better free renderer for now.

With mpc-hc or mpe-be players we can use also EVR (Enhanced Video Renderer) or MPC Video Renderer (if installed, see previous post)

Maybe in this thread we can compare them (or others) with the dead madvr.

[Grimsdyke]

The incredible flexibility and range of settings and the profiling system allow me to fine-tune any content to my liking. So far, i have not tested anything better than madVR.

[ashlar42]

madvr is dead project/code do not use it.
Betas are updated regularly, though. One can always hope for a paid for version, sooner or later.

[huhn]

nothing of this matters it only confirms even more that it is dead.

mpv is pretty much over taking it planning in a paid madVR version that can't even do what mpv can is just...

[ashlar42]

nothing of this matters it only confirms even more that it is dead.

mpv is pretty much over taking it planning in a paid madVR version that can't even do what mpv can is just...
mpv is one of the least user friendly software I've met in my whole life.

I don't dispute the quality it can offer, I strongly dispute the amount of time needed to get there. Especially when comparing to madVR and a DirectShow based player.

[Klaus1189]

I tried to get HDR passthrough with mpv but i was not successful. Anybody can help me?

[pirlouy]

mpv is one of the least user friendly software I've met in my whole life.
That's what I said the first time.
But the second time, I accepted to spent several hours on the manual: https://mpv.io/manual/master/
If you have lot of free time, it's doable in 1 day, but with limited time, you have to accept you'll need several days (weeks in my case).
But now I use it for several years (thanks stax76 (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=174841) for motivating me)

Ok, I don't know anything about HDR (i'm still a 1080p SDR user) and maybe it's less good than madVR, but in terms of ressources, mpv is better (you can use HwInfo64 to check CPU/GPU datas for both)

But I'm sure a power user which created a nice guide (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=173571) could learn mpv easily ! :)

[*MidnightWatcher*]

mpv is one of the least user friendly software I've met in my whole life.

I don't dispute the quality it can offer, I strongly dispute the amount of time needed to get there. Especially when comparing to madVR and a DirectShow based player.
I got it up and running in an hour, it's actually easier than I also thought. If you're using Windows I'd recommend Shinchiro's 64bit-v3 build (https://sourceforge.net/projects/mpv-player-windows/files/) (the 64bit-v3 build has these instructions enabled by default: avx avx2 bmi bmi2 fma lzcnt movbe sse3 sse4 sse4.1 sse4.2 ssse3 xsave sahf mwait crc32 cx16 popcnt f16c). If v3 doesn't work with your CPU just use the regular 64bit version.

1. Download and extract into C:\Program Files\mpv
2. Navigate to the C:\Program Files\mpv\installer directory, right-click the mpv-install.bat and Run as administrator.
3. Go to the C:\Program Files\mpv folder and run the updater.bat as administrator (follow the prompts quickly - I recommend selecting the 64bit-v3 version and the daily builds). This simply updates to any new Shinchiro mpv build and installs/updates ffmpeg.
4. Navigate to C:\Users\[user]\AppData\Roaming\mpv and put your mpv.conf text file here. An example mpv.conf added below.

FYI, there is an mpv player support thread now on AVS to help with the mpv.conf file and settings. The mpv manual (https://mpv.io/manual/master/) also shows all the various options you can include.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/unofficial-mpv-player-support-thread.3274072/

Edit: Here's my current mpv.conf (Windows 10, nVidia RTX 2070S, Display is a JVC X790 projector). You can download shaders from the avs support thread above.

msg-level=auto_profiles=warn,autocrop=warn,autoload=warn,cplayer=warn

#no-osc
#no-osd-bar
no-border

snap-window
autofit-larger=100%x88%
autofit-smaller=33%x66%

no-input-default-bindings
input-doubleclick-time=200

image-display-duration=inf

screenshot-template="%{media-title}-%P-%n"
screenshot-format=png

sub-font-size=36
sub-border-size=0
sub-back-color=0.0/0.0/0.0/0.75
sub-shadow-offset=4

#Video
#ontop
fullscreen=yes
vo=gpu-next
hwdec=nvdec #or d3d11va
video-output-levels=full


#GPU Renderer
fbo-format=rgba16hf #similar to MadVR
gpu-api=d3d11
gpu-context=d3d11
d3d11-output-format=rgb10_a2

#Luma Upscaling
glsl-shaders-clr
glsl-shaders-append="C:\Users\tmitc\AppData\Roaming\mpv\shaders\FSRCNNX_x2_16-0-4-1.glsl" #update to match your location
scale=ewa_lanczos
scale-blur=0.981251

#Luma Downscaling
glsl-shaders-append="C:\Users\tmitc\AppData\Roaming\mpv\shaders\SSimDownscaler.glsl" #update to match your location
dscale=mitchell
linear-downscaling=no

#Chroma Upscaling / Downscaling
glsl-shaders-append="C:\Users\tmitc\AppData\Roaming\mpv\shaders\KrigBilateral.glsl" #update to match your location
cscale=mitchell

#Upscaling / Downscaling Options
correct-downscaling=yes
sigmoid-upscaling=yes

#Deringing
scale-antiring=0.7
dscale-antiring=0.7
cscale-antiring=0.7

#Optional Shaders
glsl-shader=~~/shaders/adaptive-sharpen.glsl

#Dithering
temporal-dither=yes
dither=fruit
dither-depth=auto

#Deband (Uncomment options below to enable)
#deband
#deband-iterations=4
#deband-threshold=48
#deband-range=16
#deband-grain=48

#Audio Bitstreaming
#audio-spdif=ac3,dts,dts-hd,eac3,truehd #Uncomment this to enable HDMI bitstreaming (Atmos may currently have issues on some systems)
audio-channels=7.1,5.1,stereo #update to match your setup

#OSD
input-default-bindings = yes
input-ar-delay = 500
input-ar-rate = 20
keep-open = yes
keep-open-pause = no
osd-duration = 2000
#osd-playing-msg = '${filename}'
script-opts = osc-scalewindowed=1.5,osc-hidetimeout=2000,console-scale=1
screenshot-directory = '~~desktop/'
[protocol.https]
#osd-playing-msg = '${media-title}'

############
# Profiles #
############

[bt.2100-pq]
profile-cond=get("video-params/primaries") == "bt.2020" and get("video-params/gamma") == "pq"
profile-restore=copy
target-trc=bt.1886
target-prim=dci-p3 #options are bt.2020, dci-p3, bt.709
tone-mapping=auto #use "vo=gpu-next" to allow the default spline tone mapping (the best)
tone-mapping-mode=auto
hdr-compute-peak=yes
target-peak=100 # change to auto if using an SDR display (defaults to 203 nits)
gamut-mapping-mode=auto #uses perceptual by default

[bt.2020]
profile-cond=get("video-params/primaries") == "bt.2020" and get("video-params/gamma") == "bt.1886"
profile-restore=copy
target-trc=bt.1886
target-prim=dci-p3

[bt.709]
profile-cond=get("video-params/primaries") == "bt.709"
profile-restore=copy
target-trc=bt.1886
target-prim=bt.709

[interlaced]
profile-cond=deinterlace or (get("video-frame-info/interlaced") and not deinterlace)
profile-restore=copy
deinterlace

[end]
profile-cond=eof_reached
profile-restore=copy-equal

[JNW]

I tried to get HDR passthrough with mpv but i was not successful. Anybody can help me?

target-colorspace-hint=yes

And manually turn on HDR in Windows.

[Klaus1189]

Ok, and auto hdr switch possible?

[JNW]

I don't think so. Only if you use gpu-api=vulkan