Television issues and firmware bugs and buyers guide for your next TV

[Klaus1189]

Welcome,

I am interested in TV's and want to collect infos, known issues of certain firmwares and general drawbacks of certains TV's, like 3:2 pulldown for 23p/24p which results in judder.

I know rtings and they do a very nice job, but I think we should discuss it also here.


I want for example a new TV, with full 4:4:4 / RGB chroma support but also native refresh rate support for 23Hz / 24Hz without judder, but (!!) both at the same time.
Which manufacturers do support this?

I also created back in December testvideos which can detect 3:2 pulldown of your TV. You only need a camera with manual setting for exposure time. Set it to 1 second and take a photo. Best you use a tripod ;)
So you can do a quick test of several different HDMI modes like PC mode, game mode ... .

There are for example TVs which have 4:4:4 support (PC mode) and native 23Hz / 24Hz support but NOT at the same time.

This is also the method of rtings ;)

I am interested especially in following manufacturers:
Samsung
LG
Sony
Panasonic

Do you know of any other manufacturer who is seriously about their products? Let me know and I add it.

I can also summarize it in the first post, we'll see how it is going on.

You need a camera with manual setting for exposure time.
Set it to 1 second and take a photo of the screen. Better use a tripod ;)

Download Testvideos (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12yLtI-f10AsOEoSbxs3D3TmrXPEZgPBI?usp=sharing)

Here's a video of rtings of what to expect from the results:
Judder on TVs Explained (Motion 5/5) - Rtings.com (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuEZIJDEQyo)

[huhn]

sony is pretty much the only company where is is a given even on 60 hz panels but only for the not entry level devices.

panasonic doesn't support this by design.

phillips TV can do that usually too but they are not tested so sadly not a given.

TCL is supposed to do that too but they pretty much fail at the very forgiving banding test on rtings.
I also created back in December testvideos which can detect 3:2 pulldown of your TV. You only need a camera with manual setting for exposure time. Set it to 1 second and take a photo. Best you use a tripod
So you can do a quick test of several different HDMI modes like PC mode, game mode ... .

why not do this by eye? it'S really not a hard task.
and even if you have trouble with that just compare it to 60 hz with SM if that should be better then frame matching your TVs 23p mode isn't working properly SM can not win i can only be as good.

[Klaus1189]

why not do this by eye? it'S really not a hard task.
To have an evidence photo :)

[Klaus1189]

Samsung has an overscan issue in pc mode affecting 23 Hz/24 Hz, 25 Hz, 50 Hz, but 29 Hz/30 Hz and 59 Hz/60 Hz is not affected.
I told Samsung some months ago abou it and now I am a bit pissed off. My Q9 is still on 1270 which is the last fine firmware, but this is a bit ridiculously that a huge company like Samsung has issues like that :rolleyes:

I can not update it otherwise it would be affected by the bug, thank god only my little Samsung is affected, but I only watch news on it, so not an issue there. I realized it becuase I use an external receiver connected with HDMI cable and the little Samsung was set to pc mode and 50 Hz in Germany is affected by the firmware, so I made some tests, contacted Samsung, they did screenshots during remote maintenance and I told them step by step and little by little what to do and what exactly it is. How long can it take to find the bug in the code?

[huhn]

beware the PC mode is often fake when it is not in 60 HZ mode with Samsung so you don't get 4:4:4 same with LG.

[Klaus1189]

I heard about LG's pc mode not really be 4:4:4 but can you please explain it for me? :)

[huhn]

they often stop been 4:4:4 if you switch the refreshrate.

[Klaus1189]

Sorry, I don't understand that.

[huhn]

they are 4:4:4 at 60 hz but not 4:4:4 at 24 hz for example.
that'S not always the case to day but it was a couple of years ago.

some times they could do 4:4:4 at 60 and 30 hz...

There are for example TVs which have 4:4:4 support (PC mode) and native 23Hz / 24Hz support but NOT at the same time.

so this. just not obvious like Panasonic.

[Klaus1189]

I remember also that LG didn't do real 4:4:4, but I must admit I never unterstood the facts of the AVS thread, was it theat post?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-105.html#post58372750
Can't really remember.

[tp4tissue]

Roku Platform Tvs, proper 444 @ 23/24/60 in PC-mode, not sure about 25/50, it may be available in europe models. But US models they don't often support the 25/50hz.

Roku plat: 11point gamma + colorspace editor available across all modes. <no funny stuff white point> White point will lock to what you set it

Samsung many models drops 444 @ 23/24 down to 420, only 444 in 60hz, and their detailed 10point gamma correction is not available in PC mode. only an rgb gains editor. Samsung white point is a moving target, it goes up and down, potentially temperature or ambient sensitive, this can not be disabled.

[chros]

phillips TV can do that usually too but they are not tested so sadly not a given.
Philips OLEDs can't do it either according to Vincent's reviews (he stated the same about Pana OLEDs as well).

I remember also that LG didn't do real 4:4:4
Yes, that's the post. As we stated multiple times although it's not proper 4:4:4 but really close to it (at least with 2018/2019 OLEDs). But they can do judder free 23p in PC mode. PC mode with SDR is fine (just a bit worse than Normal mode), but there's heavy banding and posterization with HDR10 content (so most people don't use it with it, but I do :) ). DoVi is a completely different animal: although it stays in PC mode with it, but probably bypassing everything, so it's like Normal mode. More detailed info (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836) with a B8.

[huhn]

good to know that drops the oled.

that's the problem with phillips they difference a lot or are just used in name.

[YxP]

Samsung many models drops 444 @ 23/24 down to 420, only 444 in 60hz, and their detailed 10point gamma correction is not available in PC mode. only an rgb gains editor.

My experience is that many models = all models. Every Samsung I've ever tried have done this. It's almost enough for me to think that their software is at least 10 years old with bubblegum addons. Although my Q70R shows 4:2:2 working. Still not going to use it.

[tp4tissue]

My experience is that many models = all models. Every Samsung I've ever tried have done this. It's almost enough for me to think that their software is at least 10 years old with bubblegum addons. Although my Q70R shows 4:2:2 working. Still not going to use it.


Well, I can't verify the claim for All the new Samsungs, So I chose to lighten the assertion in my post. :p I'm not a fan of sams software for PC, It's more designed for regular tv-folks, like that white balance which doesn't lock.

[YxP]

Happy to do it for you so you don't have to ;) Processing power should be there already to handle 4:4:4.

[NanoBot]

Hi,

Samsung has an overscan issue in pc mode affecting 23 Hz/24 Hz, 25 Hz, 50 Hz, but 29 Hz/30 Hz and 59 Hz/60 Hz is not affected.


I own a UE40NU7199UXZG with firmware 1290.4 which has this issue. Nevertheless, I found a workaround to prevent the overscan:

In the "sources" menu, I did not declare that a pc is connected to the HDMI2 input. Instead, I declared that a home cinema system is connect to the HDMI2 input. The friendly name for for this input does not matter, so my "home cinema system" has the friendly name "PC".

Since I use this workaround, all 1920 x 1080 and 3840 x 2160 combinations of resolution and refresh rates are scaled 1:1, like it should be. Possibly this might help you.

For my tv model there is also a new firmware version 1292.1, but I did not flash it yet, so I can't tell, if the overscan bug is fixed or not. The changelog in the german samsung support forum does not mention anything about the overscan issue.

https://eu.community.samsung.com/t5/TV/Aktuelle-Changelogs-für-Samsung-TV-Updates-der-große/td-p/1199276

C.U. NanoBot

[DMU]

Instead, I declared that a home cinema system is connect to the HDMI2 input.

In this mode, your TV cuts chroma 4:4:4 to 4:2:2.

[Klaus1189]

But I think the TV does not display 4:4:4 color in that setting, does it?

EDIT: DMU beat me to it :)

[NanoBot]

That's nearly correct, the nvidia control panel shows me that YCbCr 4:2:2 with 10 or 12bit color depth is the "best" colorspace and chroma subsampling I can use. But if I limit the color depth to 8bit, I can use 3840x2160 up to 60Hz with 4:4:4 or rgb.

Nevertheless, I only use 3840x2160 to playback movies in fullscreen mode. And afaik even UHD HDR10 movies use the 4:2:0 colorspace, so the limitation to 4:2:2 should not matter ?

The second limitation I see is the bandwidth of HDMI 2.0. If I am correct, it is 18 GBit/s. A resolution of 3840 x 2160 with a refresh rate >= 48fps and a 4:4:4 colorspace with 10bit or 12bit color depth exceeds this limit. Therefore I think, that I can't use 3840x2160 >=48fps and more than 8bit color depth anyway, since both the graphics card and the tv do have HDMI 2.0.

Nevertheless I will flash the newest firmware and check if the overscan issue is still present or not.

Edit:
The newest firmware for my tv ( 1292.1 ) does not solve the overscan issue. Since I don't care about the limitation to 4:2:2, I will stick to the workarround described.

[Klaus1189]

Do Panasonic TVs really not support YCbCr 4:4:4/RGB and "TRUE" (!!) native 24p?

Can someone play one of my testfiles on his/her Panasonic and create an evidence with a camera using 1 sec exposure time and post it here but please use google driver or similar?

I am really interested in one new model, but if all Panasonics behave like that what is already mentioned, then it is out for me.

[huhn]

no they do that by design

[Klaus1189]

What a pity .. Why? Is that intended by them?

[huhn]

yes it is intended i talked with technicians.

they may changed there "ways" in 2020 but i will not go and find out. my panasonic TV isn't bad but it's not massively better then samsung and the rest of the mainstream.

the x900h looks like the LCD this year anyway.

[Klaus1189]

What about TCL?

[huhn]

know for banding.
hilarious bad pre calibration results.
bad input lag.
and "good" prices.

beware the usually tested US model is totally different from the EU pal model. so if you buy it in the EU you are gambling.

[Klaus1189]

What manufacturers are worth to look at?

[huhn]

depends on what you want.

sony is expensive and usually technically behind other brands.
VRR is a pretty default feature on most expensive TVs even through the majority has bad implementations they have an implementation compared to sony. sony only plans to add this feature to 1 TV in 2020 and they a selling consoles...
there are samsung TV in 2018 that have it.

then we have BFI and the different qualities do you want flickery but better 60 HZ BFI or ghosting but less flicker 120 HZ?
or motion interpolation they all have different implementations.

do you want native 120 HZ a default feature on LG this year.

what about the backlight type are you going to use an active backlight or not? how much does blooming annoy you?

how much do you care about brightness and how stable that brightness is. usually sonys are not as bright as other brands even with the same panel but they are more consistent so they have worse highlights but not as often a dimmed image.

there is just too much.

[pirlouy]

I don't know if you're interested, but here are some observations from my TV.
It's a Samsung 1080p 120 Hz 2016 (Full Led) panel, so I'm useless for HDR stuff. I know it's an old panel, but I would not be surprised to have similarities with today models (would be nice is some people would confirm). As huhn said, if you use PC (or DVI) AND 59/60 Hz, you'll have 4:4:4. Every other combination results in 4:2:2 (it was already the case in 2009).

As I'm totally not interested in color accuracy (as long as a yellow is yellow, blue blue etc), I'm really interested by Motion Interpolation implementation. Samsung has quite a good reputation for this.
As soon as you enable this option, Samsung internal software analyses the content and if it detects a movie it will try to apply its interpolation, EVEN IF you are in 60Hz mode ! But... There are unfortunately several flaws.

The good:
It works very well if you are in 23/24 Hz mode (4:2:2 as said earlier). You can adjust smoothness in option, and you have perfect motion without soap opera effect. Smooth Motion from madVR looks terrible in comparison. Perfect use of a 120 Hz panel.

The bad:
- At 59/60 Hz (4:2:2), it works but not every time, sometimes detection fails and forgets it's a 23/24 fps video for 1 second, so if you want smoothness, let's admit it is not functional.
- Except when video fps = display fps, it is totally not compatible with madVR. Even with Smooth Motion disabled, madVR does something (I don't know what but it must do something internally to avoid the classic 3:2 pulldown for example), and Motion interpolation causes terrible judder. Other players/renderers don't bother Samsung Motion Interpolation like this.

The worst:
It works only with 23/24 fps video on 23/24 fps display.
With 25fps videos, it does not work at all when display is at 50Hz. You better use 60Hz display with a 25 fps video but smoothness won't be as perfect as 23fps on 23Hz.


So in the end, when I have 23/24 fps video, I use 23/24 Hz display refresh rate (with any player/renderer) with Samsung Motion Interpolation.

For 25 fps content, I use 60 Hz with Samsung Motion Interpolation disabled and I use madVR Smooth Motion (unique algorithm, unfortunately no equivalent in other renderer/players). I don't even use 50 Hz display rate, since I would not be surprised if internally TV worked in 60 Hz. And like Smooth Motion works better with higher refresh rate, I use 60 Hz.

[Klaus1189]

Thanks for info, I will have to read it a few times to fully understand it :D

could you also post the exact model number of the tv?

[pirlouy]

UE60J6240

Yep, I understand it sounds complicated, especially because on this forum, motion interpolation is not an important feature and (I think) it is not often discussed (or unfairly associated to soap opera effect).
Maybe it's because OLED pixel reactivity is really that good and don't need Motion interpolation (I doubt it). But I don't plan to buy one. OLED is too expensive + flaws + LG.

[Klaus1189]

+ LG.

What do you mean with that exactly? Probably flaws of LG? Do you know any? Need opinions of other users ;)

[pirlouy]

OLED has several flaws, burn-in being one, but with years, I've read a lot.

And LG has never been known for great post-processing stuff.
Sony, Samsung and I think Panasonic have better reputation.
I'm really not into HDR or 4k at all but when I read LG OLED users, I can't stop thinking LG is still bad at processing signal. But as I don't own one and I don't have HDR content, I can't tell for sure, just feeling after some readings.

[scharfis_brain]

In terms of motion handling I preferred an LG C7-OLED over my new Sony AF9-OLED.
Sony notoriously introduces judder, whereas LG just kept interpolating things.

[pirlouy]

Just to be sure, is it just feeling or have you done proper tests with files like this: https://www.oc-burner.de/ftp/Videos/juddertest/ ?
It's really time consuming to test judder with several videos fps, several display rates, several TV options.

Sony is also limited by the fact they use LG OLED panel, so if LG badly conceives them, they can't fix that.

[scharfis_brain]

One cannot show the effect of motion handling between SONY and LG with such a simple moving bar judder test.

Sony simply fails when sudden changes in motion direction happens.
Generally Sony behaves worse on complex motion than LG.
On the other hand Sony has fewer artifacts.

Sony simply fails to give me the Soap-Opera-Effect I like.
LG just smoothes everything to be like shot on video.

[Klaus1189]

Where can I look up color gamut info of LG TVs and also Sony TVs? What menu entries do I have to select? On Samsung I know it, but how is that on LG and Sony? DCI-P3 or BT.2020 for example of HDR sources.

[VBB]

I can only speak for the LG OLEDs, but they traditionally have three different settings: auto, wide, and extended. Wide is the display's native gamut. Extended is a bit of a mystery, but it's larger than BT.709, and smaller than wide. You'd think auto picks between the other two, but that's not the case. All three can produce a different image, depending on the source. With some image presets the gamut is locked to a particular setting, depending on the model year.

[Klaus1189]

Thanks for the answer.

Can I set a LG TV both "Real Cinema" for 5:5 Pulldown (I know it needs a 100Hz/120Hz Panel for it) AND PC mode (for YCbCr 4:4:4/RGB support -> by naming the HDMI input to "PC") at the same time?
How is LG's "Real Cinema" called on Sony TVs? Or is this feature enabled by another setting like nmaing the input to film or whatever.

What is the smallest Sony/LG/Samsung which can do YCbCr 4:4:4/RGB and 5:5 Pulldown at the same time? I am searching rtings now but I am lost.

[huhn]

sony is simple
every X series is able to do 4:4:4 at everything AFAIK.
for 4:4:4 you need to select a preset named gaming or photo that's it.
there is no option for real cinema or something like that they do this correct if it is physically possible (as it should be...). they have an option to add "BFI" or backlight strobing that found under the motion interpolation setting by setting one of the settings to max and the other to the lowest no new frames are created by this. thsi doesn't work flawlessly on the OLED there is no backlight meaning they have to use real BFI which limited the current TVs to 60 HZ.
even 60 HZ panel (not the OLED with BFI)can display 24 hz correctly accordingly to rtings at least. this does not work with the internal player because the UI of it is rendered in 60 HZ supposedly.

getting the smallest/cheap tv that can do something like that is no easy task because it depends on the year the European model may not even have the same panel. beware a lot of sony TVs have LG IPS panel with a CR below 1000 they are usually all 120 HZ i'm not aware of an LG IPS panel for TVs that is not.

[Klaus1189]

I am thinking of one like this: KD-49XH9505

[huhn]

well that's not a cheap one but have fun.


this TV doesn't have the x wide... "feature" for better viewing angles like the 55 version hinting it's not the same panel type so be careful.

is the size the reason you want this device? 1200 for such a small TV with such a small feature set is even for overpriced sony quite a lot.

[Klaus1189]

It must not be this special one. Do you know of cheaper alternatives, best is 43 but max. 49 inch diameter. For 43 I think the time is gone where you can get a decent tv in such a small form factor.

[huhn]

KD-43XH8096
good luck figuring out the panel.

there is going to be a 49 OLED even from sony

[Klaus1189]

Thanks for info. Selecting a TV is a pain in the *** ;)

[Klaus1189]

KD-43XH8096 is "highest end" 43 from Sony, right?

And I still don't get how a 60 Hz panel can display 24p judderfree:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x800h

[huhn]

this is supposed too be an 8 bit ips panel so there we have the 60 hz LG panel too.

https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/12961ce1

edit: you can take sony for your size pretty much from the list. it the very price 950 or the OLED the rest is IPS well or you are fine with IPS.

[Klaus1189]

Do you know how Sony can get judderfree 24p with a 60 Hz panel? rtings tells us so:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x800h

[huhn]

And I still don't get how a 60 Hz panel can display 24p judderfree: i obviously don't know how they did it but... pretty much every Tv can do 50 hz judder free 48 hz is not far off :-).

[scharfis_brain]

And I still don't get how a 60 Hz panel can display 24p judderfree:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x800h

Quite simple: it is being downclocked internally to 48 or 24 Hz
Or alternatively clocked at 72Hz.

Another option might be Frameblending 24p to 60Hz.
This is unnoticeable.

The Sequence with 3:2 Pulldown:
A A A B B C C C D D

might become this using Frameblending:
A A ab B B C C cd D D