How to crop 1/2 of the black bars on NTSC 16x9 for 4/3 TV.

[BWilder]

I'm looking for the simplest way to crop my svcd videos using DVD2SVCD.
(16x9 NTSC DVDs played back on a standard 4x3 television set)

I would like to crop about 1/2 of the black bars above and below the video. This way I'm not losing too much of the picture, while still increasing the viewing area, and of course keeping the correct aspect ratio.

I have used many of the DVD tools out there, and have been using DVD2SVCD successfully for 2 months. I have NOT used Avisynth, other than with DVD2SVCD. (which is automated)

I have tried selecting 4x3 Aspect Ratio, which of course resulted in elongated faces in the resulting video. (so I know this isn't right, at least not for watching on a 4x3 television)

I'd like to know which program I need to modify, CCE, Avisynth, etc. Step by step instructions would be great. If not, at least I'll know which program to study.

Thanks!!
B.Wilder

[DDogg]

Actually I can help you on that. Go to the AviSynth forum and search for posts by "Frank". You will find one that gives the changed numbers for the avsscript. Then just check the "Edit as part of video encoding" checkbox in the frameserver tab and alter the script.

Let me know if this does it for you and thanks for taking the time in your other post to bring back an answer. Now people can use the search funtion and find your information. :)

[10Strip]

I was thinking about asking this question just the other day but instead tried the same thing BWilder did:

"I have tried selecting 4x3 Aspect Ratio, which of course resulted in elongated faces in the resulting video. (so I know this isn't right, at least not for watching on a 4x3 television)"

Thanks for the direction DDogg.

10Strip

[BWilder]

O.K. I figured out how to edit the Avisynth script, but the values I entered were apparently wrong. The picture was unrecognizable... I've searched every post possible, but I still can't find the answers.

Could someone please help me with the "crop(xx,xx,xxx,xxx)" values for:

NTSC widescreen video played on a standard 4/3 television. (original svcd resolution of 480x480)

If there are different "crop(xx,xx,xxx,xxx)" values for 2.35:1, etc??

Your help is appreciated :cool:

Thanks!!
BWilder

[gerti67]

Hi there,

the thread DDogg mentioned is about cropping a 2.35:1 to 16:9 as it says. If you use the following:

...
Crop(90,0,540,480)
BicubicResize(480,480,0.00,0.60)
AddBorders(0,60,0,60) <-- delete this line
...

then you get a) a movie that should fill the entire screen of a 4:3 TV if the source was anamorphic 1.85:1 or b) if the source was anamorphic 2.35:1 - a movie that looks like a 1.85:1 encoded movie - it's that easy. :D - just kidding, it's quite confusing sometimes.

There are some more possible calculations like cropping the TV scan overhead and optimizing for CCE macroblock usage and so on - I think, I will try to do some basic guide on that as I'm experimenting on that right now (inspired by Kedirekin's inputs on that topic :)) if I have some more time and anyone is interested in this.

I had quite some quality gains with CCE when cropping the TV overscan borders as there are less macroblocks to be encoded so that the bitrate can be assigned to other parts. It's still not figured out in total and I need just some more days. ;)

Hope that helps,
Gerti

[No Rice]

So if I am reading this right. If you use these values, you wil cut off part or all of the black bars on a NTSC video when watching it on a 4:3 TV?

...
Crop(90,0,540,480)
BicubicResize(480,480,0.00,0.60)
AddBorders(0,60,0,60) <-- delete this line
...


I have all NTSC videos, which are of course all "widescreen" and the black bars are about 6-8" each on top and bottom, which doesn't leave very much viewing area on a 27" TV.

[DDogg]

No Rice, understand that you are cropping. Meaning you are drawing a square in the middle of your video and blowing that up to full screen while throwing away the sides of your original. You will loose a good chunk of each side to do this. It is really only forgivable when doing a 2.35:1 (and many would argue vehemently with that) where the video is so skinny of a band in the middle of your set. You will loose part of your picture. If you feel this is something you want to do then give it a try....with caution and restraint :)

You might want to experiment with the pan and scan feature of PowerDVD. That does the same thing on the fly.

[10Strip]

Originally posted by gerti67

...
Crop(90,0,540,480)
BicubicResize(480,480,0.00,0.60)
AddBorders(0,60,0,60) <-- delete this line
...
then you get a) a movie that should fill the entire screen of a 4:3 TV if the source was anamorphic 1.85:1 or b) if the source was anamorphic 2.35:1 - a movie that looks like a 1.85:1 encoded movie - it's that easy. :D - just kidding, it's quite confusing sometimes.

There are some more possible calculations like cropping the TV scan overhead and optimizing for CCE macroblock usage and so on - I think, I will try to do some basic guide on that as I'm experimenting on that right now (inspired by Kedirekin's inputs on that topic :)) if I have some more time and anyone is interested in this.

I had quite some quality gains with CCE when cropping the TV overscan borders as there are less macroblocks to be encoded so that the bitrate can be assigned to other parts. It's still not figured out in total and I need just some more days. ;)

Gerti

This sounds like good stuff! Especially for all of us without a widescreen.

Thanks,
10Strip

[marie]

Call me dumb but I went to see Frank's post and still lost as to where I should set these settings. I went to Framserver tab and se the option to select "Edit as part of CCE encoding"

But where do i do this??

"Crop(90,0,540,480)
BicubicResize(480,480,0.00,0.60)
AddBorders(0,60,0,60) <-- delete this line"

I need to know and get this right because i have been searching a long time about how this can be done

THANKS!

[chainsaw135]

In the frameserver tab in DVD2svcd, there is a section called
"Edit the Avisynth Script file"

You can select "edit when dvd2avi processing is done" or
"Edit as part of Video encoding"

I myself chose "Edit when Dvd2avi Processing is done"
then when dvd2avi is done with processing, the Avisynth Script file pops up, it looks something like this

Crop(90,0,540,480)
BicubicResize(480,480,0.00,0.60)
AddBorders(0,60,0,60)


All you need to do is make it look like this and save the file
Crop(90,0,540,480)
BicubicResize(480,480,0.00,0.60)



So addborders would be taken out Nothing else just
"AddBorders (0,60,0,60)"

[Mozart]

Hi gerti,

first of all, cogratulations for you new status. Now, I think, my retirement is not so far;)

You don't need to "crop" the tv overscan. You just need to avoid it. For example, if the avs script is:

...................
Crop(90,0,540,480)
BicubicResize(480,480,0.00,0.60)
...................

to avoid the encode of image in the overscan area (which is a waste of bandwith) you need to do:

...................
Crop(90,0,540,480)
BicubicResize(448,448,0.00,0.60)
AddBorders(16,16,16,16)
...................

Did you got it?:D

[gerti67]

Hello Mozart,

first of all, cogratulations for you new status. Now, I think, my retirement is not so far;) thanx for the congrats - and I hope you will not retire as I'm always interested in your input and thoughts :)

With the cropping of the TV overscan - you're right - I think I didn't put it in the right words (my English sometimes is reduced to the vocabularies that swirl in my brain at the moment of writing ;))

I know this :):

Crop(90,0,540,480)
BicubicResize(448,448,0.00,0.60)
AddBorders(16,16,16,16) But I don't wanted to cause (more) confusion so I ignored it for this time as I want to try to compile this "cropping topic" for the Q&A because there were quite some questions on it during the last weeks.

Greetings and thanx for your input,
Gerti

[marie]

Originally posted by Mozart
Hi gerti,
...................
Crop(90,0,540,480)
BicubicResize(448,448,0.00,0.60)
AddBorders(16,16,16,16)
...................

Did you got it?:D


Hey, I did this and I noticed that when I played the movie on my 27" tv, I noticed that it is cutting some of the movie on the left and right side. I noticed because the name of the actors that appear when the movie is starting are sometimes cut off on the left side.

Any ideas?

[Mozart]

hi,

did this happens when you play with windvd also? If yes, this is because of the "crop" command. When using "crop", it is recommended that you test the result loading the avs file in mplayer. Actually, this is recommended every time that you edit the avs file.;)

[marie]

I am using PowerDVD XP

Actually, it is showing the same. Like for Robin Williams, R and O are cut off. The quality is still good though, its just i thought it would fit all in :)

Also, i thought it would be full screen? But it is fine with me, i think it occupies up to 80% of the screen and very little border on top and bottom.

[gerti67]

Hi marie,

imagine your source movie is 720x480 pixels when doing NTSC with the "crop" command you cut of 90 pixels from the left and the right side of the source then you "zoom" into the movie to let the black borders disappear while maintaining the correct aspect ratio (therefore you had to cut of the 90 pixels from both sides).

That's why you loose some picture information - indeed this is what they doing in TV most of the times - ever noticed that? - But nowadays there is a trend to not do this anymore as 16:9 TV sets are more common.

The black borders will only completely removed with this when the source is 1.85:1. When it's 2.35:1 or something in between then the borders will only become smaller. You could try to "zoom" in once more with cropping so that these borders will disappear too - but this is not recommended at all as you will loose to much picture information from both sides.

Hope that helps,
Gerti

[marie]

gerti thanks :)

So i guess it cant be done perfectly :) Which is fine with me.

I just thought there would be a way but I can live with no cropping at all :)

[MotoX71]

@gerti67
I think this would make a great addition to the Q&A.

I understand that croping the video image will remove the black bars, but also remove some of the movie content on the left and right sides for an 16x9 dvd viewed on a 4x3 tv. My current understanding is that the only way to keep all the content is to not crop and have cce encode the letterboxing. I encoded a single chapter of an anamorphic dvd in dvd2svcd with the aspect ratio set to both the 4:3 and 16:9 settings. As expected the 4:3 svcd had enlogated heads when played on a 4x3 tv. The 16:9 encoded version had the correct aspect ratio when played on a 4x3 tv, but with the letterboxing encoded into the svcd the quality was horriable, even with the ave. bitrate at 2440, which is what i have my max ave. set at.
I read in the "An amazing thread about 16:9 versus 4:3 aspect ratio"

quote: svcd freak
"viewing on 4:3 TV with the correct aspect ratio can be solved by getting a DVD player which is capable of reading "anamorphic" SVCD's. Most DVD players don't and therefore on a 4:3 set you will be viewing your SVCD with a stretched vertical image and people heads will be elongated and look wierd."

sorry i don't quite know how to make it all official and pretty looking yet.

I understand that this is one solution to problem, and if anyone know of a dvd player that supports anamorphic svcd that would be great! What I was wondering is there anyway to add the black bars after encoding so there isn't the huge loss in encoding the black bars? or to just make the svcd final resolution 480x270 and hope the dvd player will figure it out? I am also intrested in your results conserning the optimization matrices, I haven't touched that setting yet.

I guess i'm looking into such things, but with any new subject it's ususally slow going.

Thanks for any help or information,
MotoX71

[gerti67]

Hi MotoX71,

Hmm ... that's weird with the letterboxed 16:9 encode! Because of the resized picture there is less information for CCE that needs to be encoded so a 16:9 letterboxed encode with the same bitrate as a 4:3 anamorphic encode should usually look better as the bitrate for a 4:3 encode has to be allocated over the whole screen and thats about 33% more information. The black borders for the 16:9 encode need nearly no important bitrate. In fact that's why people advice to make sure to use a higher bitrate for a 4:3 anamorphic encode.

With your "Max. avg" bitrate set to 2440 kb/sec there is a little error I think - this is only an upper boundary for D2S' bitrate calculation that it will not exceed. You have to look in the "dvd2svcd_log.txt" and see what bitrate D2S has calculated for your movie to fit on your desired number of CDs. Have a look at this line "Avg. Bitrate: XXXX" then you will see the average bitrate for CCE's encode. So it can indeed be possible that the average bitrate was just 1600 kb/sec because you perhaps just chose 2 CDs for a 120 minute movie or so. And if you only did a small test chapter for a 4:3 anamorphic encode then it was encoded with the full "Max. avg" bitrate you have set - and that was 2440 kb/sec so it is quite clear that this encode looked a lot better. But just a guess as I don't know if you did so. ;)

With the anamorphic DVD standalones - hmm - I would go the other way round and buy a 16:9 TV set or the recent 4:3 TV sets which have almost always an option to switch to 16:9 mode - then the TV set adds the black borders to your 4:3 anamorphic SVCD and you are on the safe side if you buy a 16:9 TV set in the future.

With the optimized CCE settings macroblock settings, just wait a few days I will do a Q&A for that, I think.

Greetigs,
Gerti