Which display for MadVR only?

[chros]

This thread supposed to be a quest for the "perfect" display (model numbers) for MadVR only (SDR and HDR2SDR conversion using pixel shaders; we don't care about other inputs).

The following properties must be fulfilled:
- different refresh rates (23p, 24p, 50p, 59p, 60p)
- 4:4:4 chroma in *every* refresh rate
- good black level (=< 0.005 nits)
- high brightness (>= 150 nits)
- etc.

I'll add more properties to the list upon request.

Only note those models the fulfill all the above properties.
Now the hunt can begin! :)

[chros]

... reserved ...

[tp4tissue]

If we put 0.005 nit as black lvl in there, the ONLY display which can do that are OLEDs .

So this would effectively be, Best OLED thread ?

The only thing outside of OLED, would be the Eizo CG3145, Light modulated IPS, $30-45,000 street price. that has something round 0.001

In general, I would object to OLEDs being the ideal display, primarily for its extremely poor motion clarity, one big Smear.

For example, even cheapo VA-panels do a really good job of motion clarity, because they use cheapee 120hz pwm dimmed leds. WHICH inadvertently greatly improves motion clarity (reduce pixel trails), even though they only did it to cut cost.

Being BEST DISPLAY for Madvr, IMHO, we should consider motion clarity a critical factor, because Madvr plays Movies, which are Moving-Pictures.

The lightmodulated VA (possibly ips) panels are coming from Hisense and TCL very soon. These will do 0.001

Samsung is doing microled. (which), This is a confusing tech, because if you have all these leds which have Different lvl of wear through normal use, then color uniformity may change dramatically over length of ownership.

[VBB]

@chros, you should have this thread moved to the "Software players" section, since it is madVR related. Hardly anybody will see it here.

[Asmodian]

In general, I would object to OLEDs being the ideal display, primarily for its extremely poor motion clarity, one big Smear.

For example, even cheapo VA-panels do a really good job of motion clarity, because they use cheapee 120hz pwm dimmed leds. WHICH inadvertently greatly improves motion clarity (reduce pixel trails), even though they only did it to cut cost.

Current OLEDs have BFI, which is way better than random PWM dimming interacting with the image, that causes apparent ghosting along with the clarity improvement. I would object to anything with a black level over ~0.01 being the ideal madVR display. :p

Edit: Also most 24fps video has lots of motion blur in the video so motion clarity is not that important. It is key for sports or video games but not films, in my experience.

[huhn]

the BFI on OLED is currently the worst end of BFI implantation.
the reason for that are not OLEDs it's how it is archived.
yeah there are cheapo LCD that are worse obviously but you know...

currently the LG OLED panel allows for 120 frames as an input and there is no backlight as everyone should know so the best an OLED can do thanks to it's panel limitation is 60 images and 60 black images which gives it a 50 % BFI to image which is "not good" the higher the black image part of the presentation cycle the sharper the motion an VG248 has about 10 % image and 90% black image which is way sharper still not CRT yet.

the next issue with the OLED BFI is that it can't do 24 hz BFI AFAIK because it only can do it for 60 HZ and 50 HZ and 120 hz is not an multiplier of 48 frames. 96 frames BFI would be worst then 50 hz in term of flicker and 144 hz isn't possible >yet< so...

just as a reminder these are panel limitation not OLED limitations.
an OLED can do much better then this even through the response times are a lie (LCD lie even more gtg response times any one...) they are in a totally different league then LCD.
the thing is just for backlight strobbing you don't need the best response times because it can normally response in the "dark" if isn't super slow obviously.

BFI /backlight strobing (i will just call it BFI in this part)and the ghosting:
if "BFI" with a matching refreshrate doesn't have to create ghosting
ghosting will be create in all other cases and it is done intentionally even in analogue cinemas.
the BFI cinema spec was out of my memory 72 hz or 96 hz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_(screen)) to lower flicker which will produce ghosting.
just as a reminder plasma had to do this too.
so the ghosting is an expected result if not a wanted result.

backlight strobing:
please don't put random PWM dimming in the same performance region as intentional backlight strobing which needs very very precise timing and is currently the best we can get in term of motion clearness but they are pretty much mutually exclusive to HDR.

using backlight strobbing/bfi will cost brightness there is no way around this and the more brightness that's scarified by using more black then image the better the clearness.

@chros you are asking for way to much in general.
what about other major issues like:

ABL
active back lights (nothing i personally hate more!!!)

@Asmodian
with ~0.01 you pretty much removed all LCDs but you leave some really bad projectors in it.

at 100 nits that's 10000 CR more then an panasonic plasma.
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/panasonic/st60

[Asmodian]

I did say ideal, and we need enough brightness to easily disqualify those projectors. Maybe 0.01 nits is asking too much but I know 0.03 nits is pretty bright in a dark room. :(

Hopefully the 2019 and later OLEDs will have better BFI. I understand the 2019 LG OLEDs will use a 240 Hz driven BFI implementation.

Hiding the pixel transition and the better timing of true BFI is obviously sharper but I do notice the ghosting. I notice it most when watching something move fast across the background or during fast pans. Cinema does not have BFI because they wanted it, it has BFI because you need to move the film without blurring the image, at 72 Hz so it doesn't visibly flicker. I am not convinced BFI is that important for 24 fps content, anything at 24 Hz with no motion blur is going to be a bit choppy. :p

BFI is nice, but is it worth having a 0.05 cd/m² black level all the time? Hopefully we will not need to choose. :)

[huhn]

you can easily "disqualify" low end projectors by not suing the black point by just using CR is this the perfect solution hell no but it'S a little bit more specific.
current VA panel range from static Cr of ~4000-6000 for the better ones.

is 0.03 pretty bright in a dark room?
what is seen as black by the human eye just depends on the brightness of other parts on the screen the human eye has only a CR of about ~1000.

so a white box with 100 nits next to a box with 0.05 will turn the the 0.05 into total darkness.

nature has some extreme examples for this with the good old sun the dark spots on it are still super bright but simply looks like total darkness compared to the rest.

and about BFI it is still done in cinemas and adding blur on top of blur doesn't sound right to me. it's not like BFI will remove blur from a source it simply doesn't add more.
backlight strobbing doesn't have to ruin CR of a display it does this from time to time on gaming displays if i'm remembering correctly my VG248 has a CR of ~250 with it enabled but CR is clearly not the focus for gaming screens with 120 or more HZ.

who knows what's important for what user.
what's totally clear you can't have it all at the moment and you may never will.

[Asmodian]

0.03 nits is pretty bright, I know from experience. :p

Full black next to full white is not that common, but it is common to have a dark scene where 0.03 black obviously glows. Black bars aren't great either. CR is an important metric but if black is 0.1 nits I do not care how bright it gets, it is a bad display, at least for my viewing conditions.

[tp4tissue]

0.03 nits is pretty bright, I know from experience. :p

Full black next to full white is not that common, but it is common to have a dark scene where 0.03 black obviously glows. Black bars aren't great either. CR is an important metric but if black is 0.1 nits I do not care how bright it gets, it is a bad display, at least for my viewing conditions.


For Projector in a dark room, 0.1 is glowing.

For any reasonably lit room, 0.1 is nothing.


0.05 is already quite visible in a dim room, but it doesn't remove much from the scene.


At the moment, we're making a choice between Best still image/ slow scene on OLED, Vs Best motion-image overall on VA-panels.

the human eye is capable anywhere between 1000 to 10000:1 contrast ratio, depending on who you talk to..

Va panels already have 5000:1, that's more than adequate.

For movies, Motion clarity is just slightly more important than Still image performance.


But, this is a moot argument, Samsung's new Microled blows OLED out of the water. No more worrying about burn-ins and rapid degrading blue-pixels

Then there's TCL and Hisense.

[Asmodian]

I know what I like in a display and something with a 0.05 nits black is not a good display for me. Also my blue pixels have been great so far, I check them about every three months and I only see a very slow change. At 100 nits peak white I am not pushing them too hard. :)

Microled isn't really out yet, and they might have stability problems too. Other chemistries for creating very bright inorganic LEDs can degrade. But I am definitely interested!

I really don't like VA panels, with their bright blacks and off-angle color issues. :(

[Blue_MiSfit]

Stutter is a huge thing for me. I got an 2016 LG OLED and it's great for everything except fast panning on 24p. The stutter is incredibly bad, and there's nothing you can do except turn motion interpolation on (which is terrible).

I miss that about my plasma...

[tp4tissue]

Stutter is a huge thing for me. I got an 2016 LG OLED and it's great for everything except fast panning on 24p. The stutter is incredibly bad, and there's nothing you can do except turn motion interpolation on (which is terrible).

I miss that about my plasma...

What we're all really waiting for is Light modulated IPS.

The difficulty here is that you'd need backlight capable of 2000nits, Blink that on the LCD transition trail, which eats 1000 nits.

I believe fastest IPS can do 144hz maybe even 165hz

This produces the ideal outcome motion-fans are after, Motion clarity ontop of perfect blacks.

[huhn]

Stutter is a huge thing for me. I got an 2016 LG OLED and it's great for everything except fast panning on 24p. The stutter is incredibly bad, and there's nothing you can do except turn motion interpolation on (which is terrible).

I miss that about my plasma...

LG had a bug on the first flat UHD OLED where 23p didn't work properly if that by any chance is this screen you may fix the issue.

the stutter should be the same on both the OLED and the plasma both are in theory capable of presenting 23p correctly. i would even go this far and say that the OLED should be more "smooth" because the motion is far more blurry compared to the plasma.

on the other hand if you have a HTPC PC is pretty easy to test your screen for stutter or judder issues with madVR.

[Blue_MiSfit]

I mean stutter (not judder). I have several different LG OLEDs (B6, C7, C8) at work and at home and they're all the same.

I'm not talking about judder from doing 2:2:2:4 to stuff 24p in 60p. That's not an issue, I'm sure the panel is getting clean 24p from the source, and that it's displaying that correctly. I've even output 2160p23.98 and 2160p24 ProRes XQ masters from DaVinci Resolve using a Blackmagic card to the display to make sure there's nothing goofy going on.

From what I understand, stutter happens when a TV has very fast response (e.g. OLED) so frames are drawn instantly and held on-screen for the full duration.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/stutter

I'm not really an expert on this, but my eyes hurt when there's a 24p panning shot on every OLED I've ever seen, no matter how it's configured. This was NEVER an issue with my plasma. All told, I think the benefits of the OLED are worth it, though I haven't personally spent any time with current high end LCDs. The downsides of local dimming really spoil my experience with mid-range stuff like the Sony X930 and Vizio M series.

[huhn]

i'm not a huge fan of this test for a very simple reason. BFI/backlight strobing is supposed to have a way bigger impact that test simply takes frame - response time ignoring persistence reset completely.

while plasma doesn't had the same response times but still very good response times it is a refresh display type.

so the response time difference between plasma and oled shouldn't be really big because real world response times of OLED is between 0.2 over 1 ms.

[tp4tissue]

I'm not really an expert on this, but my eyes hurt when there's a 24p panning shot on every OLED I've ever seen, no matter how it's configured. This was NEVER an issue with my plasma.

Plasma has a very subtle pixel decay drag similar to crt. maybe that smoothed it out for you.

[chros]

I mean stutter (not judder). I have several different LG OLEDs (B6, C7, C8) at work and at home and they're all the same.
...
I'm sure the panel is getting clean 24p from the source, and that it's displaying that correctly.
Does it happen with RealCinama ON and SmoothMotion Off in 23p/24p? (Note that I don't have an oled.)

[VBB]

He's talking about "stutter" in fast motion and panning, which all OLEDs are prone to, unfortunately. This is not caused by incorrect settings, but rather by the way the technology works. It brings out the inherent flaws in 24 fps media. Some don't notice it as much, or at all, even, but those who do (like me) are forced to use the de-judder setting. And this is where Sony's processing is better than LG's, but supposedly the gap is closing with the 2019 models. After using it for a long time now, I've gotten used to having a little bit of soap opera effect.

[Asmodian]

I do notice the stutter of fast 24 fps pans on OLED but the motion interpolation is terrible on my C7. I recently turned it on to see how it impacted stutter and banding but during non-global motion or unstable lighting I notice all sorts of nasty artifacts. During clean pans it is nice but the mess during a scene with flickering light, like a fire, makes it completely unusable for me. I have not seen Sony's processing but can it really avoid these issues?

[VBB]

From what I've been reading on AVS all these years, the Sony is that much better, yes. But they're the same if you don't use any interpolation, that's the thing. I'm curious what you had de-judder set to when you tried it. I've slowly moved my way up, and I've been happy at 5 for a long time. I do notice the occasional artifact, sure, but it doesn't bother me enough to turn it back down. I cannot stand the stutter.

[Blue_MiSfit]

I keep mine at 0/0 (not off) which has a subtle improvement without introducing any artifacts that I can notice.

[foxyshadis]

Stutter is a huge thing for me. I got an 2016 LG OLED and it's great for everything except fast panning on 24p. The stutter is incredibly bad, and there's nothing you can do except turn motion interpolation on (which is terrible).

I miss that about my plasma...

I didn't take MadVR seriously until I bought a screen with insanely high refresh rate -- and no motion interpolation, to boot. Before then, the only time I'd been able to see visible frame stutter was in 3D theaters, like Avatar, but suddenly it was everywhere. I feel your pain. More perfect is not always better when watching a medium designed to be imperfect.

[huhn]

what has the refreshrate to do with madVR if i may ask?

[tp4tissue]

why do you need high refresh rate to see 24fps stutter ?

[Blue_MiSfit]

I'm not entirely sure, to be honest. I can attest that on both my LG OLEDs and my desktop 144 Hz gaming monitor the 24p stutter is absolutely brutal in camera pans, even with the displays running at 24 Hz.

I'm not aware of a high end display (especially one that has HDR) that is free from this issue today.

@foxyshadis how does MadVR help in this case?

[nevcairiel]

Running high refresh rate input to the screen and using madVR Smooth Motion might prevent that issue, at the expense of sharpness.

The stutter from Low Framerate Input is unfortunately a side-effect of our display technology getting better. Really good ways to resolve that have not been developed quite yet.

[tp4tissue]

Running high refresh rate input to the screen and using madVR Smooth Motion might prevent that issue, at the expense of sharpness.

The stutter from Low Framerate Input is unfortunately a side-effect of our display technology getting better. Really good ways to resolve that have not been developed quite yet.

Save us James Cameron

[huhn]

smoothmotion at high refresh rates is kind of an no brainer and doesn't really have the sharpness loss issues the blended frames are shown for a to short time it's less then 7 ms.

and i have a hard time seeing this changing the stutter issue if you are watching 24p content at 144 hz you can get blended frames with 95% of one frame so this shouldn't blur motion or you can get the "worst" case with 50% and the most important part this will change every time you play the same file.

is stutter really an issue from new display technology we had CRT in the past with even faster response times with backlightstrobing.

[nevcairiel]

and i have a hard time seeing this changing the stutter issue if you are watching 24p content at 144 hz you can get blended frames with 95% of one frame so this shouldn't blur motion or you can get the "worst" case with 50% and the most important part this will change every time you play the same file.

Stutter come from frames being static for too long, which is caused by fast response times on Sample-and-Hold displays - ie. when the monitor can switch the image instantly, then the jump between two images is more sudden, and you perceive a notion of stutter, since 24p is only borderline enough for smooth motion.

As such, smooth motion can help, as it reduces the "hold time" of each 24p frame by filling the gaps with blended frames. You get significantly less sudden jumps between frames, less perceived stutter.

A perfect BFI implementation would also help, if it doesn't result in losing too much brightness. BFI helps because when the image is turned off, our brain starts to interpolate between images - which doesn't work when the image is still being shown.
The BFI on my Sony TV makes motion super clear and fluid, its like magic. Unfortunately the brightness loss is quite strong, so I don't use it. But newer TVs cope much better with the brightness problem.

CRTs didn't suffer from this issue at all, its purely a characteristic of Sample-and-Hold displays. The way CRTs scan the image allowed our eye interpolation to function, in a similar manner as BFI tries to replicate, because pixels are not always "on".

[huhn]

the problem with smoothmotion is it doesn't do that for every frame.

if you get 50% blended frames yes you get a result like a lower response time of about 7 ms on a 144 hz display but if the blended frames are 95& to 5% there is no real difference even using smoothmotion you can end up watching a whole movie with 98% to "% blended frames so there is pretty much no difference between SM on or off and this will change every time you start playback. so i have a huge problem seeing how this will lower stuttering as the results vary heavily.

i'm personally not affect by the stuttering from response times and i like BFI at at least 120 hz to stop the flickering and to have the sharp motion.

[chros]

I'm not entirely sure, to be honest. I can attest that on both my LG OLEDs and my desktop 144 Hz gaming monitor the 24p stutter is absolutely brutal in camera pans, even with the displays running at 24 Hz.

Doesn't RealCinema On setting help with this? (not TrueMotion)
I just watched couple of 23p content during the weekend (65B8) with RealCiname On and I didn't see stutter, it was smooth as butter, maybe too smooth as well :)

I just found this - not too old - thread (https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-real-cinema-on-or-off.2004928/#post-25216520) and people still can't decide what RealCiname does. I thought I knew it with my previous LG CCFL LCD TV, but I'm not sure anymore :)

Stutter come from frames being static for too long, which is caused by fast response times on Sample-and-Hold displays - ie. when the monitor can switch the image instantly, then the jump between two images is more sudden, and you perceive a notion of stutter, since 24p is only borderline enough for smooth motion.

That's interesting.
A month ago I set up custom refresh rates for my 1080p monitor (VA panel, nothing special) for 23/24p content with the help of madVR (47.9xx/48Hz) and it produced massive stutter in panning scenes, I was shocked.

[huhn]

have you checked if your custom rate is dropping frames at the end device side. not that uncommon happen a ton when overclocking screens.

[chros]

have you checked if your custom rate is dropping frames at the end device side
How do you check this?

[huhn]

does 60hz plus smoothmotion stutter like crazy?

[QBhd]

LG's Real Cinema is used to remove Judder not Stutter... From RTings review of the C8:

24p Judder (https://prnt.sc/n9cg2i)

I am currently trying it out with OTA HDTV... not sure if I want to use it yet for PC input

QB

EDIT: LOL... I'm still such a newb with my 5 day old C8... Real Cinema, De-Judder and De-Blur... PC input has none of those :P

[nevcairiel]

24p Judder removal is a must with every new TV. If it cannot do that, it fails a basic requirement.
Judder-free playback is basically simply the ability to drive the panel at 24Hz (or a multiplier off of it), so that frame times are constant. Bonus points for support of IVTC in 60p signals.

However, "Stutter" is different from "Judder". It has its own categeory on RTings as well, and OLEDs usually fare terrible in it, due to their really fast response time.
"Judder" is an un-even motion effect, which is far more obvious to many people, while "Stutter" is even and regular, but just not overly smooth when you notice it (many people are not that bothered by it).

[huhn]

because it is part of the topic.

judder free TVs are sadly not as common as they should be and TVs that are judder free with PC mode are pretty rare.
2018 was terrible in this regard with all these native 60 hz panels.
small example: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/nu7100

with the better tested TV only sony was able to do something like 48 hz with 60 hz panels the rest pretty much failed. rtings doesn't put much worth on to something as essential as this and labels it as "Most people aren't very sensitive to judder and won't see it." seriously?

brands which have reliable PC modes for all refreshrates are:
Philips and sony.
if you know more brands that have a PC mode that works at all refeshrates feel free to add them stuff like this isn't tested on rtings while high refreshrate PC mode is tested.
i can tell that panasonic is intentional doing this wrong.

[e-t172]

the problem with smoothmotion is it doesn't do that for every frame.

This. I would be interested if madshi could provide an option to blend every single frame, it would be interesting to see how that would look on, say, a 120 Hz OLED.

The mpv wiki (https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/Interpolation) has a very interesting discussion of these approaches. I think it would be interesting to see the "convolution" approach implemented in madVR.

[huhn]

madVR fixes the audio clock at the same time to get repetitive results you have to stop this function too.
so not that simple.

if you really want to know you could try it in avisynth.

[chros]

does 60hz plus smoothmotion stutter like crazy?
I will check this on my monitor, but I remember that I had this problem with my previous LG LCD TV (sm + 60Hz).

From RTings review of the C8:24p Judder (https://prnt.sc/n9cg2i)

"To enable this feature when playing 24p content from an external player, the 'Real Cinema' option must be turned on, and 'TrueMotion' must be set to 'User' with both the 'De-Judder' and 'De-Blur' sliders set to zero."

Wha'? I thought TrueMotion has to be Off to RealCiname work at all.
While they say this about B8 (https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b8-oled):

"The LG B8P has excellent handling of judder as it can display 24p movies without judder from the most common sources. To remove judder the Real Cinema option must be turned on.
Update 10/05/2018: We have retested the B8 after firmware 04.10.06, and it is no longer necessary to set TruMotion to 'User' to remove Judder. Simply enabling Real Cinema will remove Judder from all sources on the B8."

So that means it also depends on the used firmware version as LG may fix/screw things up.

I wanted to ask how they tested (https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p) this but I just found it.

PC input has none of those :P
Yep, that's correct, this is the LG way of doing things in the last 10 years at least. How hard would implement it in PC mode for only 24p content??? (Especially with 120Hz native displays.)
So you have 2 options with those displays for now:
- enable the true (?) fps content (in case of LG it means you'll get only 4:2:2 chroma at best)
- use 60Hz and SmoothMotion in madvr in PC mode (and get 4:4:4 chroma)

However, "Stutter" is different from "Judder". It has its own categeory on RTings as well, and OLEDs usually fare terrible in it, due to their really fast response time.
"Judder" is an un-even motion effect, which is far more obvious to many people, while "Stutter" is even and regular, but just not overly smooth when you notice it (many people are not that bothered by it).
Thanks, yes, I don't have issues with stutter at all since the whole motion already smooth (most of the time), at least it gives us the "movie" feeling.

TVs that are judder free with PC mode are pretty rare.
That's the really sad part, in 2019. It means manufacturers doesn't care at all about this.

brands which have reliable PC modes for all refreshrates are: Philips and sony.
Hmm. But this isn't enough info: we need proper model numbers and firmware versions as well :)

i can tell that panasonic is intentional doing this wrong.
:D But why???????!!! :)

[huhn]

Yep, that's correct, this is the LG way of doing things in the last 10 years at least. How hard would implement it in PC mode for only 24p content??? (Especially with 120Hz native displays.)
trivial. if you can do it for 60 you can do it for 24p.

That's the really sad part, in 2019. It means manufacturers doesn't care at all about this.
60 hz panel add an additional limitation to 24p so you have to do something "new".

Hmm. But this isn't enough info: we need proper model numbers and firmware versions as well :)
it's a default feature on not low end sony screens firmware doesn't matter they are not LG...
they have a proper PC mode for like ever.
philips has one too is very very limited compared to sony most options are disabled.
TCL is supposed to have a perfect PC mode too with auto detection i never tested one so i can't tell if those claims hold for 23/24p.

and as always i can't test all screen i can test only a very low number
:D But why???????!!! :)
it's extra work to screw it up so i have to give that to them it has PC mode for 23/24p input hell for all types of input but it
is doing 6:4 with 23p pc mode and 5:5 without and i don't test newer screens they can always improve.
i even talk to a tech guy from panasonic that instantly know what i was talking about and just said to me sorry but i can't find anything in the specs that say it has to do it correctly.

the normal support didn't have a clue what i was talking about and wanted me to buy a panasonic UBD player because my PC can't send the signal and they replaced the mainboard later... i said waste of money. they did it anyway.

[chros]

60 hz panel add an additional limitation to 24p so you have to do something "new".
Yes, but what about the 120Hz ones?! Ridiculous :)

i can't test all screen i can test only a very low number
Of course, and thanks for your insight.
What I meant is that people on this forum can check their displays against the bullet points and they/we should report back the exact model and firmware of it.

The purpose of this thread is to find an (or more) exact model(s) that we can recommend to each other. And if it doesn't exists then maybe in the future it will.

[huhn]

Yes, but what about the 120Hz ones?! Ridiculous :)
they usually can do 24p fine outside of PC mode.

Of course, and thanks for your insight.
What I meant is that people on this forum can check their displays against the bullet points and they/we should report back the exact model and firmware of it.
you don't need to do that every sony that not entry level will have a PC mode nearly if not all options it's a default feature.
there was one issue in the past where the first sony UHD screen didn't support hdmi 2.0 that was updated with a firmware so they ship them with 2.0 but didn't update there processing to it and even before that update it was able to do 23p-30p in PC mode with "all" settings.
The purpose of this thread is to find an (or more) exact model(s) that we can recommend to each other. And if it doesn't exists then maybe in the future it will.
you can not recommend something in general because not everyone needs the same.

if you want 4:4:4 no matter what with the most possible option sony is the way to go.
if you want freesync you get an samsung.
if you want ambilight for what ever reason you get an Philips.

the more you learn about TVs the more it hurts: https://www.rtings.com/tv/discussions/i1mltNBlHQqtcENa/p55-f1-inferior-pc-usage-with-staggered-sub-pixels
it's just they do what ever they want there is no proper regulation so a screen that doesn't even have RGB for every pixel can be sold as an UHD screen...
screen can have different panels with the same name on the package even stuff like IPS and VA they can be day night different in different region. hell even a 3K TV is still shipped with build in advertisement that can't be disabled.

[chros]

they usually can do 24p fine outside of PC mode.
Yes, but we have been talking about PC mode :)

you can not recommend something in general because not everyone needs the same.

I don't agree with this: this topic was created only for madVR, including list of points that a given display has to fulfill.
The list can be (and will be) extended but things like freesync, ambient light won't be amongst them :)

they do what ever they want there is no proper regulation so a screen that doesn't even have RGB for every pixel can be sold as an UHD screen... screen can have different panels with the same name on the package even stuff like IPS and VA they can be day night different in different region.
:D You're absolutely right. And the good old panel lottery: if they run out of stock of panels temporary or they want to reduce the cost of the set.

[huhn]

you can apply this to all not every user cares about 4:4:4 because they simply can see the different or are using frame interpolation anyway. not every user cares about a TV that can do 24p properly and in PC mode because they are fine with smoothmotion.

so has a TV to fullfil your points to be a proper display for madVR. it clearly doesn't your points are still forcing OLEDs.

[chros]

you can apply this to all not every user cares about 4:4:4 because they simply can see the different or are using frame interpolation anyway. not every user cares about a TV that can do 24p properly and in PC mode because they are fine with smoothmotion.
:) I get this that some don't care, but they won't come here and read this topic :)

so has a TV to fullfil your points to be a proper display for madVR. it clearly doesn't your points are still forcing OLEDs.
Sorry, I don't understand this part (language barrier).

[huhn]

you still have 0.005 black in your list that still eliminates all LCDs but LCDs are still great choice for madVR screens.

[chros]

you still have 0.005 black in your list that still eliminates all LCDs but LCDs are still great choice for madVR screens.
And projectors, as I was told.
No problem, what value would you recommend instead? (Clearly my previous LCD with its 0.14 nits value doesn't seem to be so appealing :) )

[tp4tissue]

And projectors, as I was told.
No problem, what value would you recommend instead? (Clearly my previous LCD with its 0.14 nits value doesn't seem to be so appealing :) )


I think IPS is out, 1000:1 contrast, 100nit on 0.1 black

VA, 4000-5000:1 contrast ratio, 300nit on 0.06 black

Projectors will NEVER EVER do HDR well due to low ansi-contrast. it's worse than IPS
There is no Best HDR projector. -At least not until- they release projector graded material under the HDR branding

I know people want 500/1000nit on TVs, but TBH, it just blows up black level, and make highlights uncomfortable to look at.

HDR has been a bit of a scam if we really think about it. Didn't deliver on all the advertisement.