General madvr HTPC questions

[NoTechi]

Hi everyone,

hopefully my madvr questions are not too newb for this forum ...

I finally decided to get a HTPC, it's ordered and will arrive next week.

My hardware setup:
The important parts of my setup is a GTX 1080 GPU as part of the new HTPC. I already have a JVC DLA-X 7900 projector (with custom arve curves for HDR) and a Marantz SR7011 will be in between. Sound setup is for DTS-X/Atmos/Auro 3D with Voice of God. Movies are on a NAS.

My current software setup:
So far I use a mix of players without madvr:
- older NUC for 3D mvc content and YouTube
- shield for Kodi 4k HDR and lower and streaming from Netflix/Amazon
- x-Box one X for gaming
- live TV via VU solo 4k with some picture improvements which come with the VTI/enigma2 image

With the new HTPC arriving soon I want to get as much as possible combined on it with the best picture/sound possible.

There are great guides in this and on other forums to get madvr and other stuff setup but I got some general questions on which software to use where I would like to hear your advice.

1. Kodi as main UI for movies and TV:
I like the KODI UI and I would like to keep it. 3D mvc and 4k HDR playback is important and I also want to get madvr improving all of them. I was thinking just sticking with the latest KODI 18 releases combined with external players since DSPlayer seems to be not being developed anymore.
As external player with madvr support for movies I was thinking of MPC-BE since it looks like MPC-HE development has also been stopped. 3D mvc playback should be also possible with it from what I have read.
As external player with madvr support for live TV I was thinking of DVB-Viewer with Kodis DVB-Viewer plugin. DVB-Viewer seems to accept VU streams as source.

2. Streaming with Netflix and Amazon:
As far as I understand since those video streams are kinda encrypted improving them with madvr is not possible and I just have to stick with the windows 10 apps. i am just wondering since I read for madvr/kodi HDR setup I should disable HDR support under Windows 10. If I then would like to watch a Netflix HDR stream I would have to enable it again. Is this correct or is madvr anyhow ignoring the windows setting since it is not using the windows HDR functionality and I can keep the Windows HDR setting to on for Netflix/Amazon?

3. Streaming with Youtube
Thats something I didn't really figured out if it is possible to improve YouTube videos with madvr. Searching for madvr and YouTube just gets me guides to setup madvr in general. Any hints are welcome

4. Gaming
As far as I understand gaming is a whole different story then movies and it does not work or even makes sense to improve them with madvr. Anyhow having a potent gaming PC I most likely will get rid of my xbox

5. Specific to 4k HDR content
I would like to use dynamic HDR as described in some great guides here. The guides always seem to use the method to convert HDR to SDR by keeping the HDR information first and then doing the dynamic HDR magic. My question is if this is just needed to get HDR on projectors/TVs which are not HDR compatible or have not a build in HDR/SDR detection which my JVC 7900 does pretty well. In other words could I also have dynamic HDR without converting to SDR?

6. Nvidia drivers
I read your discussion arround the new and the "latest working version". Considering my setup above and that I would go with fullscreen mode should I also go with 385.28 or would be the newest fine for me?

Really looking forward to "play" with madvr and other settings on upcoming months and hope you could let me know your opinion if the software setup I described above sounds like a good way to go and again sorry if it is too newbish

NoTechi

[Warner306]

Answered in the madVR forum...

[NoTechi]

Answered in the madVR forum...

Many thanks Warner!
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1840479#post1840479

Based on the feedback I got so far I would go for:

1./3. Kodi DSPlayer it is then. I do not use any Kodi apps at all so far but since DSPlayer supports Video adons with madvr support that would be the perfect solution for my YouTube question. If I am lucky even DVBviewer addon works for live TV :)

2. Looks like I have to toggle the windows HDR setting between Kodi and Netflix app but thats ok I am not switching that often

4. no madvr for games but did not expected that anyhow

5. HDR -> SDR or passthrough I will just have to test and figure out what I like more

6. 385.28 it is!

Thanks again and I am sure I will play arround with many different setups/settings soon ... but thats actually more fun then watching a movie anyhow :P

NoTechi

[Warner306]

I don't think DVBviewer works for live TV with DSPlayer 17.6. The need for live TV might foil your use of DSPlayer. External player rules don't always seem to work properly and I don't know how many backends are compatible with DSPlayer, nor do I know who to set up live TV correctly. You may have to post in DSPlayer official thread to find another live TV user with a working backend. Hopefully, if DSPlayer fails, playback falls back to Kodi VideoPlayer.

I recommend Aeon Nox Silvo, Aeon MQ7 or Titan as the best skins in Kodi. Many of the others are underwhelming. Only Titan is found in the official add on repository. You will want to combine any skin with Artwork Beef (https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=258886) because Artwork Downloader has been discontinued even though it is in the official add on repository. I use Aeon Nox Silvo (https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=210069) (download the repo).

[NoTechi]

For the live TV part I am just going to try and see how it goes. Would be anyhow too easy if everything would work out of the box ;)

So far I always used Aeon MQ7 but will take a look at the others. I wasn't aware of Artwork Beef but will try! Many thanks again and now just my new toy has to be delivered ... scheduled for next week Friday which is insanly far away :scared::D

NoTechi

[Warner306]

Also, Git Browser is a good way to access third-party add ons in a reliable way. Using Git Browser requires some Internet searching as you are mostly searching for usernames of developers. The benefit is you link directly to the GitHub source code, so the add on should be more reliable and up-to-date. There are other ways to find add ons not found in the Kodi.org repo, but I'll leave that up to you.

[Warner306]

This might also be of interest. It's only for Kodi v18:

https://github.com/asciidisco/plugin.video.netflix/issues/25.

It is possible to have separate installations of Kodi via a portable installation (https://kodi.wiki/view/Windows_FAQ#Portable).

[e-t172]

3. Streaming with Youtube
Thats something I didn't really figured out if it is possible to improve YouTube videos with madvr. Searching for madvr and YouTube just gets me guides to setup madvr in general. Any hints are welcome

3DYD Youtube Source (https://ys.3dyd.com/) works great for this.

[ashlar42]

3DYD Youtube Source (https://ys.3dyd.com/) works great for this.But it's not needed if he uses Kodi, as far as I know.

[NoTechi]

Thanks for all the hints and tips I really appretiate them!

My new HTPC has a delay of at least one week for shipment so I was wondering if I could prep something else in advance. I read about 3DLUT and it sounds like the optimal way to get a perfect Picture. Since I am a total newb I got some general questions on that as well:
1. Benefits to use a 3DLUT for dummies is that e.g. madvr knows what the display/projector is currently (at the time the 3DLUT gets created) is showing in regards to color, gamma and brightness and what the deviations are to calibrated standard pictures/movies. Knowing those deviations madvr would from then on adjust the input material according to those deviations to get as close as possible to the standard?
2. My projector got professionell calibrated. When I now create a 3DLUT would I change my current callibration or would I just create a file which basically reflects the current status of my projector in regards to color, brightness and so on and would not change the Settings in my projector at all?
3.I could borrow a SPIDER5 to create a 3DLUT now but I am wondering if it is important to run the calibration software (e.g. Calman) to create the 3DLUT on my HTPC directly since it would use the new GPU and so on or could I do it now already using a standard laptop and later once the HTPC arrives just import the created 3DLUT?

NoTechi

[arcspin]

Hi all,
I have read this thread and many others on the topic of getting a perfect picture for watching movies from a PC. There are a lot of conflicting answers but that are to be expected.

I have some questions that I would like to address and hopefully some of you can confirm that I’m on the right track.

The first question I have is if a have understood the “full>limited>limited” correctly in my current setup which is as follows: WIN 10 with NVIDIA GTX 1060 -> JRiver with Madvr -> JVC X5500 projector.

This is how I have set it up.
NVIDIA GTX 1060 (385.28 FW) = 32-bit, RGB, 12 bpc and Full dynamic range
MadVR v0.92.14 = RGB output level set to TV levels (16-235)
JVC X5500 = Input level set to Super White* and Color Space set to RGB
Is this a correct “full>limited>limited” setup for watching movies?


And now to my bonus question
If I change the color setup in NVIDIA from the “NVIDIA color settings” to “Default Color Settings” I get 8 bpc and the Black levels drastically change on the calibrated picture.
In the NVIDIA set-up with “NVIDIA color setting” the black bars 17-25 flashes but when I switch to “Default Color Settings” almost all the black bars, 2-25 flashes.
What are the pros and cons of these two setting and which one is preferred for watching movies?
If “Default Color Settings” is to be used, I assume the black levels needs to be calibrated down to 17-25?


* Select this setting when inputting Super White compatible device signals (dynamic range: 16-255)
(Why Super White? Because the professional calibrator used this setting when calibrating the projector.)
http://tinyurl.com/y8a52owz



//Peter

[Warner306]

Thanks for all the hints and tips I really appretiate them!

My new HTPC has a delay of at least one week for shipment so I was wondering if I could prep something else in advance. I read about 3DLUT and it sounds like the optimal way to get a perfect Picture. Since I am a total newb I got some general questions on that as well:
1. Benefits to use a 3DLUT for dummies is that e.g. madvr knows what the display/projector is currently (at the time the 3DLUT gets created) is showing in regards to color, gamma and brightness and what the deviations are to calibrated standard pictures/movies. Knowing those deviations madvr would from then on adjust the input material according to those deviations to get as close as possible to the standard?
2. My projector got professionell calibrated. When I now create a 3DLUT would I change my current callibration or would I just create a file which basically reflects the current status of my projector in regards to color, brightness and so on and would not change the Settings in my projector at all?
3.I could borrow a SPIDER5 to create a 3DLUT now but I am wondering if it is important to run the calibration software (e.g. Calman) to create the 3DLUT on my HTPC directly since it would use the new GPU and so on or could I do it now already using a standard laptop and later once the HTPC arrives just import the created 3DLUT?

NoTechi

I've never created a 3D LUT but can probably answer most of your questions.

1. The 3D LUT table stores corrections based on color errors measured by the display calibration software. These errors will be corrected by changing the hue, saturation and luminance of the color, so it matches the standards of the gamut and gamma chosen. This will always be more precise than a standard calibration with 20 or so controls as there are millions of possible values stored in the table.

2. It is recommended to pick a neutral calibration with a proper white point, but you can you use your existing calibration as the baseline to correct.

3. The colorimeter is doing the measuring, not the GPU, so you can use a laptop. Of course, your HTPC has to be connected to the projector before running the test pattern generator.

[Warner306]

Hi all,
I have read this thread and many others on the topic of getting a perfect picture for watching movies from a PC. There are a lot of conflicting answers but that are to be expected.

I have some questions that I would like to address and hopefully some of you can confirm that I’m on the right track.

The first question I have is if a have understood the “full>limited>limited” correctly in my current setup which is as follows: WIN 10 with NVIDIA GTX 1060 -> JRiver with Madvr -> JVC X5500 projector.

This is how I have set it up.
NVIDIA GTX 1060 (385.28 FW) = 32-bit, RGB, 12 bpc and Full dynamic range
MadVR v0.92.14 = RGB output level set to TV levels (16-235)
JVC X5500 = Input level set to Super White* and Color Space set to RGB
Is this a correct “full>limited>limited” setup for watching movies?


And now to my bonus question
If I change the color setup in NVIDIA from the “NVIDIA color settings” to “Default Color Settings” I get 8 bpc and the Black levels drastically change on the calibrated picture.
In the NVIDIA set-up with “NVIDIA color setting” the black bars 17-25 flashes but when I switch to “Default Color Settings” almost all the black bars, 2-25 flashes.
What are the pros and cons of these two setting and which one is preferred for watching movies?
If “Default Color Settings” is to be used, I assume the black levels needs to be calibrated down to 17-25?


* Select this setting when inputting Super White compatible device signals (dynamic range: 16-255)
(Why Super White? Because the professional calibrator used this setting when calibrating the projector.)
http://tinyurl.com/y8a52owz



//Peter

I don't know if I understand you correctly, but if you have madVR set to limited, the GPU set to full and the projector set to limited, you should be fine. There is more detail on the three possible options in my signature.

You don't want to see bars 2-25 flashing, as this is blacker than black. The first option shows the correct bars flashing, so stick with it.

Super white allows for the display of whiter than white (and blacker than black, I assume). This extends below 16 and above 235 to make it easier to calibrate the grayscale with patterns that send this information. Otherwise, you can't see any blinking bars below 16 or above 235. Real content won't have these values, so this is just for calibration.

[Asmodian]

This is how I have set it up.
NVIDIA GTX 1060 (385.28 FW) = 32-bit, RGB, 12 bpc and Full dynamic range
MadVR v0.92.14 = RGB output level set to TV levels (16-235)
JVC X5500 = Input level set to Super White* and Color Space set to RGB
Is this a correct “full>limited>limited” setup for watching movies?

Yes, that is a correct chain for watching movies (but your desktop will not be correct using those settings). I am not sure what you mean by full>limited>limited though.

And now to my bonus question
If I change the color setup in NVIDIA from the “NVIDIA color settings” to “Default Color Settings” I get 8 bpc and the Black levels drastically change on the calibrated picture.
In the NVIDIA set-up with “NVIDIA color setting” the black bars 17-25 flashes but when I switch to “Default Color Settings” almost all the black bars, 2-25 flashes.
What are the pros and cons of these two setting and which one is preferred for watching movies?
If “Default Color Settings” is to be used, I assume the black levels needs to be calibrated down to 17-25?


"Default Color Settings" is simply using limited range so you get double range compression. madVR does 0-255 -> 16-235 and then the GPU does it again. This is why you can see below 17 flash, the 2 test bar is actually above 16 after the GPU compresses the range again. If you want to use "Default Color Settings" simply set madVR to full range output so you only have one range compression step.

Note: Super white is not a great calibration option when using well mastered digital video (e.g. not raw camcorder footage that was shot using super white). You are only getting 92% of the contrast your display is capable of because nothing will actually use the top 8% of your dynamic range (236-255). However, you can use custom levels in madVR to use your full range of 16-255. In Display -> properties select "custom levels..." and set black to 16 and white to 255, keep Nvidia on your current “NVIDIA color settings” with full dynamic range.

[arcspin]

Hi and thank you for great answers both of you.

Regarding Super White, it was a professional calibrator at my house calibrating the projector using Super White, I will ask him about that. I’m sure that Warner306 explanation is what the calibrator will also say to me.



I have now tried to set the custom level to 16-255, excellent suggestion Asmodian.

When I analyze the result with Madvr custom level 16-255 and JVC input set to Super white, this is what I have found:
White clipping test picture: I get the bars 230-234 to flash. (I can´t get the bars to flash higher than 234 no matter how much I change the contrast.)
Grayscale steps test picture: I get perfect white (235).
Color clipping test picture: Just a few bars on red, blue and green are flashing

When I analyze the result with Madvr tv level level 16-235 and JVC input to standard, this is what I have found:
White clipping test picture: I get the bars 230-234 to flash. (I can´t get the bars to flash higher than 234 no matter how much I change the contrast.)
Grayscale steps test picture: I get perfect white (235).
Color clipping test picture: I get up to and beyond 235 bars on red and blue to flash, green just a few bars.

Summary: If a change the settings to Tv level 16-235 in Madvr and set input level to normal in JVC I get similar results but when I analyze this result with a Color clipping test pattern I get more bars flashing in Madvr Tv level 16-235 and JVC Standard than in Madvr custom level 16-255 and JVC Super white.

I also notice that the picture gets a little bit of punch when using the Madvr Tv level 16-235 and JVC Standard setting.

Question: I can’t draw any conclusions from this test, I am interested in your opinion regarding the Color clip testing pattern, I assume all bars (Red, Green and Blue) are supposed to flash up to 235 when analyzing a Color clip testing pattern?
If I can't get the bars to flash uniformly up to 235, is it better to have them uniformly flash to a lover number?
I.E, use the setting with Madvr custom level 16-255 and JVC input set to Super white.


I think I read something by Manni01 (it might not have been him at all, if so I apologize.) and he used the term “full>limited>limited” to illustrate the setup chain: GPU to Full dynamic range > Madvr to TV levels (16-235) > Projector to Standard dynamic range (16-235).

That kind of stuck in my head and got me interested in pursuing better understanding of the rendering chain. Warner 306 setup faq is a treasure trove of information and I thank you for maintaining and keeping it up to date.

And again, thank you both, I really appreciate the answers.

[NoTechi]

I've never created a 3D LUT but can probably answer most of your questions.

1. The 3D LUT table stores corrections based on color errors measured by the display calibration software. These errors will be corrected by changing the hue, saturation and luminance of the color, so it matches the standards of the gamut and gamma chosen. This will always be more precise than a standard calibration with 20 or so controls as there are millions of possible values stored in the table.

2. It is recommended to pick a neutral calibration with a proper white point, but you can you use your existing calibration as the baseline to correct.

3. The colorimeter is doing the measuring, not the GPU, so you can use a laptop. Of course, your HTPC has to be connected to the projector before running the test pattern generator.

Many thanks Warner question 1 and 2 are clear to me now and I am definitely going to give it a go :)


As for question 3 I don't have my HTPC yet so I was thinking of creating the 3DLUT just with my Laptop but I guess thats not a good idea since the test pattern will be different using my Laptop instead of the HTPC. Well I will have to be patient and wait for it to arrive … :D

[Warner306]

Hi and thank you for great answers both of you.

Regarding Super White, it was a professional calibrator at my house calibrating the projector using Super White, I will ask him about that. I’m sure that Warner306 explanation is what the calibrator will also say to me.



I have now tried to set the custom level to 16-255, excellent suggestion Asmodian.

When I analyze the result with Madvr custom level 16-255 and JVC input set to Super white, this is what I have found:
White clipping test picture: I get the bars 230-234 to flash. (I can´t get the bars to flash higher than 234 no matter how much I change the contrast.)
Grayscale steps test picture: I get perfect white (235).
Color clipping test picture: Just a few bars on red, blue and green are flashing

When I analyze the result with Madvr tv level level 16-235 and JVC input to standard, this is what I have found:
White clipping test picture: I get the bars 230-234 to flash. (I can´t get the bars to flash higher than 234 no matter how much I change the contrast.)
Grayscale steps test picture: I get perfect white (235).
Color clipping test picture: I get up to and beyond 235 bars on red and blue to flash, green just a few bars.

Summary: If a change the settings to Tv level 16-235 in Madvr and set input level to normal in JVC I get similar results but when I analyze this result with a Color clipping test pattern I get more bars flashing in Madvr Tv level 16-235 and JVC Standard than in Madvr custom level 16-255 and JVC Super white.

I also notice that the picture gets a little bit of punch when using the Madvr Tv level 16-235 and JVC Standard setting.

Question: I can’t draw any conclusions from this test, I am interested in your opinion regarding the Color clip testing pattern, I assume all bars (Red, Green and Blue) are supposed to flash up to 235 when analyzing a Color clip testing pattern?
If I can't get the bars to flash uniformly up to 235, is it better to have them uniformly flash to a lover number?
I.E, use the setting with Madvr custom level 16-255 and JVC input set to Super white.


I think I read something by Manni01 (it might not have been him at all, if so I apologize.) and he used the term “full>limited>limited” to illustrate the setup chain: GPU to Full dynamic range > Madvr to TV levels (16-235) > Projector to Standard dynamic range (16-235).

That kind of stuck in my head and got me interested in pursuing better understanding of the rendering chain. Warner 306 setup faq is a treasure trove of information and I thank you for maintaining and keeping it up to date.

And again, thank you both, I really appreciate the answers.

Asmodian is an expert on calibration, so he would be a better person than me to answer this.

The white clipping test pattern may not include values above 235 or your projector simply can't get any more white. Not an issue as your grayscale up to 235 appears to be correct.

The color clipping test pattern may not be perfect but you should aim to have all bars flashing up to and beyond 235. It is better to have bars flashing above 235 than below, so setting madVR to 16-235 appears to be the better option. Your grayscale is more important, so you probably don't want to change the white point to improve color clipping if your projector was professionally calibrated. This is the kind of error that might be improved by a 3D LUT. And two of the three colors appear accurate.

I find this manual helpful for understanding these patterns: http://www.w6rz.net/avshd709/Patterns-Manual.pdf.

[arcspin]

Hi,
Here is a quick update on the different set-ups that I have tried.

Without any further calibration, this is how the different settings will output:

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Enhance = all bars flashing. Grey scale is off
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color, 219-233 red blue and green flashing. Grey scale is good
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-233 red blue and green flashing. Grey scale is good
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Standard = Nothing flashes. Grey scale white and black are to much
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Super White= White all flashing, Black no flashing, Color all flashing. Grey scale is good
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Super White = White all flashing, Black 25-17 flashes, Color all flashing. Grey scale white is off, black is good

NVIDIA Full > Madvr Tv level > JVC Enhance = all bars, except green flashing. Grey scale is off
NVIDIA Full > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-233 red and blue flashing, no green flashing. Grey scale in good
NVIDIA Full > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-243 red and blue flashing, no green flashing. Grey scale is good
NVIDIA Full > Madvr Pc level > JVC Standard = Nothing flashes. Grey scale white and black are to much



To get uniform flashing bars in all test pictures and a good gray scale these two set-ups looks to be able to accomplish that:
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard

Question: Which one of these would be a better set up, if I do not want to mess around with other settings due to the fact that my PJ has been professional calibrated.



Cheers,

//Peter

[Asmodian]

Your JVC’s “Enhance” setting is full range 0-255 and “Standard” is limited range 16-235.

Ideally you should always see 16-234 flashing for both black and white and color bars. Since the pattern for color goes up in steps of two you only see up to 233 flash. After a software white point calibration the color bars will not match.

I have explained what each step in the rendering chain is doing below:

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Enhance = all bars flashing. Grey scale is off
madVR 0-255 -> 0-255, GPU no change, JVC displays full range.

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color, 219-233 red blue and green flashing. Grey scale is good
madVR 16-235 -> 0-255, GPU no change, JVC displays full range.

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-233 red blue and green flashing. Grey scale is good
madVR 0-255 -> 0-255, GPU no change, JVC displays limited range.

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Standard = Nothing flashes. Grey scale white and black are to much
madVR 16-235 -> 0-255, GPU no change, JVC displays limited range

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Super White= White all flashing, Black no flashing, Color all flashing. Grey scale is good
madVR 16-235 -> 0-255, GPU no change, JVC displays 16-255 but only 230-235 white should be flashing

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Super White = White all flashing, Black 25-17 flashes, Color all flashing. Grey scale white is off, black is good
madVR 0-255 -> 0-255, GPU no change, JVC displays 16-255

I am not sure why you get different results with Nvidia full vs Nvidia standard. Your black and white results are the same too. :confused:

Your first bolded mode is the ideal option based on pure madVR, both Windows and madVR will be correct. NVIDIA Standard and Full range should give the same results in all cases, unless it uses a calibration in one mode but not the other? However, I don’t like changing modes after a calibration.

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance

[Warner306]

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance

Manni has mentioned that levels are inverted for him for several drivers. It seems more like the JVC is inverting the levels it receives. If this is the case and Nvidia Standard is actually Nvidia Full, then you would have the same Full -> Full -> Full chain that everyone else uses. But no one else besides three JVC owners I know of claims that Nvidia Standard produces Nvidia Full. Seems very strange for such a chain to produce the best results.

[Asmodian]

I just tested it on my system, Nvidia's "use default color settings" produces full for me, limited does produce limited too. :confused:

[arcspin]

Hi and thank you Asmodian for your input. It is highly appreciated.
Asmodian, could you please further explain your findings above and the implications it might have.
Hi Warner306, yes I also read that Manni have had different findings depending on different drivers, I use the driver that Manni recommends which is the NVIDIA 385.28 driver.

I find it weird that the greens are not shoving when using NVIDIA Full.
I also cant explain that when using "NVIDIA Full > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard" I get Red and Blue Color flashing to 219-243 (no green flashing) but in "NVIDIA Full > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance" the colors Red and Blue only goes up to 233 (no green flashing). In both these settings the black and white bars flashes the same and Gray scale is good.



Let me take the time and be a little more specific and further explain my settings.

This is what I use:
WIN 10 64-bit, version 1709 (no spring update) with NVIDIA GTX 1060 (385.28 driver)
JRiver (24.0.20, 64-bit) with Madvr (0.92.14)
JVC RS420/X5500 projector (4K, capable of receiving 12-bit).

Under display and Change resolution:
"NVIDIA Standard" is when I use standard color setting in the NVIDIA control panel = 32-bit, 8bpc, RGB and Limited
"NVIDIA Full" is when I use NVIDIA color setting in the NVIDIA control panel = 32-bit 12bpc, RGB and Full

Question: In the NVIDIA control panel under Video, there are two options, Adjust video color settings and Adjust video image settings.
Both are set to "With the video player settings" is this correct?

[Asmodian]

OK, I was probably not correct about what was happening in my last post. It is possible to get the same results multiple ways but also some of your results don't match the GPU set to limited range. :confused:

A good test is to put madVR on limited range. With madVR set to TV levels it leaves the pattern as intended, 16 is still 16 and 235 is still 235. With madVR set to full range it expands the pattern so 16=0 and 235=255, clipping everything in the pattern below 16 and above 235.


NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Enhance = all bars flashing. Grey scale is off

This makes sense if NVIDIA is in limited mode so it compresses the pattern, 0 becomes 16 and 255 becomes 235. The projector can be set to anything (we don't know), it should have a gray background with "Enhance" because according to the user manual "Enhance" does mean full range.


NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color, 219-233 red blue and green flashing. Grey scale is good


This makes sense, using madVR with PC levels we have clipped everything above 235 and below 16 so we could never see them flash.


NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-233 red blue and green flashing. Grey scale is good


I cannot figure out how this works with both madVR and Nvidia set to limited range, the GPU compresses 0-255 into 16-235 and the projector is in limited range. You should see all bars flash and the background being full black. :confused:


NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Standard = Nothing flashes. Grey scale white and black are to much


madVR expands 16 to 0 and 235 to 255. Then the GPU compresses 0 back to 16 and 255 back to 235, everything outside of 16-235 is 16 or 235 now. Like above but now you should only see 17-25 and 230-235 flash.

You know, I think your projector has been calibrated to show double compressed video properly while it is in limited range mode.
Edit: But only if the GPU is set to limited range, if the GPU is full range it seems to be calibrated to show normal limited range video properly in Standard. In the user manual it doesn't sound like your projector has any input range detection method when not using "Auto", is it possible it changes calibrations based on the GPU's dynamic range setting? I wouldn't have thought so.

Question: In the NVIDIA control panel under Video, there are two options, Adjust video color settings and Adjust video image settings.
Both are set to "With the video player settings" is this correct?

Yes, keep both those options on "Use the video player setting" or "With the video player settings".

Edit:
These results with the GPU in full range do not match above.
NVIDIA Full > Madvr Tv level > JVC Enhance = all bars, except green flashing. Grey scale is off
NVIDIA Full > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-233 red and blue flashing, no green flashing. Grey scale in good
NVIDIA Full > Madvr Pc level > JVC Standard = Nothing flashes. Grey scale white and black are to much
NVIDIA Full > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-243 red and blue flashing, no green flashing. Grey scale is good


Out of these results this looks optimal to me:
NVIDIA Full > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-233 red and blue flashing, no green flashing. Grey scale in good

I don't see how both this (also a good option):
NVIDIA Full > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-243 red and blue flashing, no green flashing. Grey scale is good
and:
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = White 230-235 flashes, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-233 red blue and green flashing. Grey scale is good
Can be true at the same time. :confused:

Edit2: Also, since you know the calibration was done in super white mode I would also like to see how that looks with madVR in limited range and the GPU in both full and limited ranges. More data is needed to figure this out. :)

[arcspin]

Edit2: Also, since you know the calibration was done in super white mode I would also like to see how that looks with madVR in limited range and the GPU in both full and limited ranges. More data is needed to figure this out. :)

I have made a more granular inspection of the color flashing bars and are reporting those findings in more detail down below.


NVIDIA Full > Madvr Tv level > JVC Super White = White all flashing, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-243 red flashing, 219-239 blue flashing, 219 green flashing, Grey scale white is off and black is good
I can adjust contrast to calibrate Gray scale to good white.

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Tv level > JVC Super White = White all flashing, Black 25-17 flashes, All Colors are flashing. Grey scale white is off, black is good
I can adjust contrast to calibrate Gray scale to good white and subsequently the White flashes 230-234 and Red, Green and Blue flashes 219-233.

With JVC set to Super White I can easily raise the white flashing bars, however the white will then be off when inspecting Grey Scale but calibrated I will get perfect white in gray scale. I can´t go any higher than 26-17 with the black bars.


Test number 2 - this time with Madvr set to custom 16-255

NVIDIA Full > Madvr Custom level 16-255 > JVC Super White = White 230-234 flashing, Black 25-17 flashes, Color 219-231 red flashing, 219-221 blue flashing, no green flashing. Grey scale white is good, black is good

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Custom level 16-255 > JVC Super White = White 230-234 flashing, Black 25-17 flashes, All Colors 219-233 flashing. Grey scale white is good, black is good
Update: With this setting I do not have to change the professional calibrators contrast and brightness settings.


It seems like the "NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Custom level 16-255 > JVC Super White" is the best set up in regards of not having to change the professional calibrators settings.
However I am in this set up stuck in 8 bit (as reported by thc JVC PJ) but upon reading in other threads this is not a big issue and as Asmodian earlier stated "people are not noticing a change in image quality"
So I'm good with that.

[Asmodian]

Very interesting, not needing to change the calibrators contrast and brightness settings is always a good sign. ;)

However, you get the right flashing bars at the high end because madVR is clipping everything above 235 to 235 when it is set to output 16-255, so you don't really know what your projector is doing.

I think you may have found a good option but you still seem to have an extra range compression step and you want as little range compression as you can while seeing only 17-234 flashing. It is OK if you can see 235 or 6 as well but you really don't want to be able to see 16.
How do these look using the calibrator's settings?
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance
Or
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Super White

Also try a video with some shadows, you can usually tell if you are stretching and clipping shadows pretty quickly with video while the test bars just get more distinct.

[NoTechi]

I really like the discussion on the full chain since I will have to deal with it also with a JVC shortly as well :D

I got some more questions in regards to 3DLUT and dynamic HDR. I was thinking even though most projector users seem to use HDR to SDR conversion and then have dynamic HDR if thats needed at all.
Question 1: Are 3DLUT corrections made by madvr also used for HDR and 3D content?
Question 2: Are 3DLUT corrections by madvr dynamic? In other words is madvr correcting the output depending on each frame or is it more a general correction independend from the content played?
Question 3: Are 3DLUT corrections also made while having HDR on passthrough? I would guess not since passthrough somehow implies it is not getting touched just want to be sure :). If passthrough is not the right setting which one would be better to use 3DLUT or other optimizations on HDR content without performing a HDR to SDR conversion first?

NoTechi

[arcspin]

How do these look using the calibrator's settings?
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance
Or
NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Super White

Also try a video with some shadows, you can usually tell if you are stretching and clipping shadows pretty quickly with video while the test bars just get more distinct.

They basically looks the same but with the distinct difference that JVC Enhance is more bright and entire picture looks washed out.
I cant get the bars to go any further by changing the contrast or the brightness, so max 17 in black and max 234 in white.

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Enhance = White 230-234 flashing, Black 25-17 flashes, All Colors 219-233 flashing. Grey scale white is good, black is good
=The picture looks washed out as it is much brigher.

NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Pc level > JVC Super White = White 230-234 flashing, Black 25-17 flashes, All Colors 219-233 flashing. Grey scale white is good, black is good
=Can't see any difference between this and "NVIDIA Standard > Madvr Custom level 16-255 > JVC Super White"

Movies looks good, I have tested it with the 2017 IT where there are a lot of darkness and shades.

[Warner306]

I really like the discussion on the full chain since I will have to deal with it also with a JVC shortly as well :D

I got some more questions in regards to 3DLUT and dynamic HDR. I was thinking even though most projector users seem to use HDR to SDR conversion and then have dynamic HDR if thats needed at all.
Question 1: Are 3DLUT corrections made by madvr also used for HDR and 3D content?
Question 2: Are 3DLUT corrections by madvr dynamic? In other words is madvr correcting the output depending on each frame or is it more a general correction independend from the content played?
Question 3: Are 3DLUT corrections also made while having HDR on passthrough? I would guess not since passthrough somehow implies it is not getting touched just want to be sure :). If passthrough is not the right setting which one would be better to use 3DLUT or other optimizations on HDR content without performing a HDR to SDR conversion first?

NoTechi

1. You can use a 3D LUT. See below.

2. I believe the 3D LUT corrects each pixel: input -> correction -> output.

3. HDR passthrough is unaffected by 3D LUTs. A 3D LUT is used for HDR -> SDR conversion if it is selected in the SDR calibration menu. madVR converts HDR to SDR and the 3D LUT is left to process the SDR output as it would any other video.

If you are using custom curves with HDR passthrough, you may not see much benefit from using madVR's tone mapping in its current state. If you aren't using custom curves, then madVR's tone mapping will offer more flexibility in customizing the brightness of the HDR image.

Here is a copy-and-paste of the information I've collected on the various HDR options:

madVR offers five methods for dealing with HDR metadata:

let madVR decide: The display capabilities are detected by madVR. Displays that are HDR-compatible receive the metadata via passthrough (untouched). Not HDR-compatible? The metadata is converted to SDR via pixel shader math at reasonable quality but not the highest quality.
passthrough HDR content to the display: The display receives the regular HDR content untouched for conversion by the display (a setting of let madVR decide will also accomplish this). HDR passthrough should only be used for displays which natively support HDR playback. Send HDR metadata to the display: Use Nvidia's/AMD's private API: requires a Nvidia/AMD GPU with recent drivers and a minimum of Windows 7. Use Windows 10 API (D3D 11 only): For Intel users; requires Windows 10 and use Direct3D 11 for presentation (Windows 7 and newer). HDR and Advanced Color should be enabled in Windows display settings. This is important as the Windows API will not dynamically switch in and out of HDR mode. HDR mode must be enabled by default. By comparison, the Nvidia/AMD API does dynamically switch HDR on and off when an HDR video is stopped and started allowing for perfect SDR and HDR playback. The Windows 10 API is all or nothing -- all HDR all the time. The Nvidia/AMD API requires the Windows OS HDR and Advanced Color is deactivated. AMD also requires 10-bit output and Direct3D 11 for presentation (Windows 7 and newer). You do not need to select 10-bit output in the madVR control panel for Nvidia GPUs; dithered 8-bit output is acceptable and sometimes preferable for some displays. Using enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode is recommended for Nvidia users when outputting 10-bits from madVR and 12-bits from the GPU. This is due to a driver bug that is creating banding with 12-bit, fullscreen windowed output. This only applies to HDR passthrough without FSE; SDR content is unaffected by 10-bit windowed mode.
convert HDR content to SDR by using pixel shader math: HDR is converted to SDR. The display receives SDR content.
convert HDR content to SDR by using an external 3DLUT: HDR content is converted to SDR. The display receives SDR content. If you supply multiple 3DLUT files, the one which best matches the source gamut will be used. The 3DLUT receives untouched R'G'B' HDR (PQ) data, applies tone & gamut mapping, then outputs R'G'B' data in the display's native gamut and transfer function.
process HDR content by using pixel shader math: The display receives HDR content, but the HDR source is downconverted to the target specs.
process HDR content by using an external 3DLUT: The display receives HDR content, but the 3DLUT downconverts the HDR source to some extent. The 3DLUT input/output is R'G'B' HDR (PQ). The 3DLUT applies some tone and/or gamut mapping.

[NoTechi]

process HDR content by using an external 3DLUT: The display receives HDR content, but the 3DLUT downconverts the HDR source to some extent. The 3DLUT input/output is R'G'B' HDR (PQ). The 3DLUT applies some tone and/or gamut mapping.

Yes I am using custom curves atm but the downside of those is they are not dynamic.

Very nice collection of the HDR options! The last one sounds like the one I was looking for if I get it right. There would be no HDR to SDR conversion but the HDR signal would be dynamically corrected according to the 3DLUT.

Anyhow many thanks again for all the great and fast replies getting me on track and in the end I am sure I will just have to try some options to find the solution I like most :)

NoTechi

[arcspin]

Hi all,
I think I have figured out what is wrong with my settings.


In NVIDIA control panel when I switched from Full to Limited I did not change the color bit depth at all, it was always on 12bpc.
(and that is why the greens always were messed up)
When I switched to use the standard color settings in NVIDIA control panel the bit depth went to 8bpc by default.
(and the greens went ok)

So, with that in mind I have now tried a few set ups with NVIDIA in Full and 8bpc:
(If I understod our previous conversation correctly it is preferred to have NVIDIA to FULL and Madvr to TV level)

NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Super White = If I increase the contrast I will get perfect white, gray scale ok and all color bars flashing 219-233. Blacks I can't raise above 17.
NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Enhance = If I change contrast and brightness I will get perfect white, gray scale ok and color bars flashing 219-233. I can get all White, Black and Color bars to flash or disappear by changing contrast and brightness.
NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = Blacks I can't raise above 17, whites I can't raise above 234 and all color bars flashing 219-233 and I can't raise those either.

With these new test results, is NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Enhance to be the preferred set up?
Movies also looks good with calibrated contrasts and brightness

[Asmodian]

NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard = Blacks I can't raise above 17, whites I can't raise above 234 and all color bars flashing 219-233 and I can't raise those either.


If you have to use different contrast and brightness then the calibrator to use JVC Enhance I recommend the option above with the calibrator set contrast and brightness. If not, I agree with your pick.

Starting to making more sense now. :)

[arcspin]

Hi and thanx for a quick response,
yeah, I did not quite understand why the green color messed everything up, I still can't understand why this only works in 8bpc and not 12bpc?
Could it be that the equipment* he used is in 8bpc and therefor calibrated to give perfect values only in 8bpc?

yes, with the calibrators settings everything looks good in NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard

Just for good measures I did a test with Madvr set to custom level 16-255 and JVC to Super White.
I did get the exact same result as in NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard.


I think in the end that we solved it, many thank you´s for taking the time and debugging my system.



*This is what he used calibrating my PJ.
METER: SpectraCal C6
Manufacturer: X‐Rite
Serial #: 00103663

SOURCE: Murideo 6G Generator
Manufacturer: Murideo
Info: Murideo 6G Generator 115200 baud

[Asmodian]

I do not think it is a matter of equipment, I am not sure what it is, maybe your projector simply doesn't like 12 bit full range RGB for some reason?

The SpectraCal 6 is Calman's bundled version of the i1 Display Pro, a good meter. I have the retail one (and Calman) and they have no issues with higher bitdepths, bit depth is not something meters notice, they are only looking at the screens brightness, hue, saturation, etc based on light sensors behind color filters.
edit: That generator was generating 8bit patterns but the projector should show the same image when receiving 8 or 12 bit 100% white.

I am glad you found a good option and "NVIDIA Full 8bpc > Madvr Tv level > JVC Standard" is a normal calibration mode without anything that makes me think it shouldn't be like that. :D

[NoTechi]

I have a X-Rite i1Display Pro arriving next week to start the 3DLUT fun :)


Beside that I am really happy with the results I get so far with madvr!


Just one think bothers me is when it comes to playing 3D mvc titles I need to enable the "stereoscopic 3D-function" within the nvidia driver. Thats working perfectly and I love the results I get in regards to picture quality. However if I leave this setting enabled all players (dsplayer, mpc-hc, mpc-be) will crash once they switch to full screen exclusive mode playing a non 3D movie. Knowing this I can live with it to always enable/disable the stereoscopic function manually it just bothers me since I will not achieve my goal to be able to play everything in one media center without the need to leave it ;)


NoTechi

[Warner306]

I have a X-Rite i1Display Pro arriving next week to start the 3DLUT fun :)


Beside that I am really happy with the results I get so far with madvr!


Just one think bothers me is when it comes to playing 3D mvc titles I need to enable the "stereoscopic 3D-function" within the nvidia driver. Thats working perfectly and I love the results I get in regards to picture quality. However if I leave this setting enabled all players (dsplayer, mpc-hc, mpc-be) will crash once they switch to full screen exclusive mode playing a non 3D movie. Knowing this I can live with it to always enable/disable the stereoscopic function manually it just bothers me since I will not achieve my goal to be able to play everything in one media center without the need to leave it ;)


NoTechi

You can create a profile for your 3D content and then have a batch file run when that profile is selected. The batch file should trigger 3D mode and then turn it off at playback end. Unfortunately, I don't have a batch file to provide as an example.

[NoTechi]

You can create a profile for your 3D content and then have a batch file run when that profile is selected. The batch file should trigger 3D mode and then turn it off at playback end. Unfortunately, I don't have a batch file to provide as an example.

I don't think there is a way to toggle the "Stereoscopic 3D" within the Nividia control panel by just running a script. It might be possible by using the Nvidia API (https://developer.nvidia.com/nvapi) but thats something more time consuming and I need to setup all the other stuff first. Might be an option in the future :)


NoTechi

[Asmodian]

I do remember other users using such a batch file. Unfortunately I also don't have an example as I don't use 3D at all. :(

[Warner306]

A quick search for 3D batch files came up with the following link:

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1828671&highlight=nvidia+batch+file#post1828671

[NoTechi]

A quick search for 3D batch files came up with the following link:

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1828671&highlight=nvidia+batch+file#post1828671


Thanks Warner! I just did a quick google search and gave up since there are other setup priorities atm. I should have searched this forum first ;)
My setup priorities atm:
1. Get the best picture for live TV and all types of movies (madvr with 3DLUT)

2. Get it all automated and combined within Kodi (here is where I will need the batch but it will take some more time to finish 1.)


Way to go ;)


NoTechi

[arcspin]

Hi,
I have been wondering about the 8bpc vs. 10bpc difference in color reproduction I have with my setup in NVIDIA controll panel as I mentioned in previous posts.

I have one question regarding the OSD information "Ctrl+J"
When I change to Exclusive mode in Madvr the OSD states:
D3D11 exclusive (10bit)
P010, 10bit, 4.2.0

https://photos.app.goo.gl/dmJGphQ1sqx5y9qQ2

(The information is taken from a "2160 4K, HEVC 10bit, UltraHD)

Can anyone please explain what the 10 bit information means in regards to that in NVIDIA I have the output color depth to 8bpc (32-bit, RGB, 8 bpc, Full).
Are there any correlation between these two bit depth numbers or am I totally out of my depth here *smile*

Best regards,

[huhn]

the nvidia setting controls what is send to the display this is the driver.
the madVR setting is what you send to the GPU driver.
if they don't match up the driver has to fix it in your case it has to change the bit deep 8 bit.

[arcspin]

Thank you for a quick and concise answer.
I appreciate that!

[NoTechi]

Just a quick update and some more questions :)

I am really happy with my Setup atm but I did some changes since the original plan. Since I also use the pc as gaming machine and I love to watch 3D movies I decided to go with latest Nvidia Drivers. As far as I understand there are probelms in windowed mode like 8bit only but I am ok to use exclusive full screen.

Next to Kodi DS Player I also added some external Players like mpc-hc and mpc-be. So far I use mpc-be most since I never had any troubles (e.g. playing iso). I am even thinking of moving to Kodi 18 and mpc-be as Standard (external) Player. :D

I did a new calibration of my projector and created SDR 3DLUTs which I now use with madvr with really good results.

So my first goal to improve movie and live tv Picture quality is achieved already. I would like to also be able to use madvr with Netflix but I doubt that will ever happen.

My current construction sides where I have some questions are:
1. madvr custom refresh rates
I was a bit worried playing with custom refresh rates but after some trying it's really giving me good results. I often get a the error "The GPU Driver rejected this mode, for unknown reasons". This is espcially not good since I get the error with 3840x216024p when testing the mode even though the resolution was switched ok I get the error when applying the setting. I was wondering if the problem is that there is already a 2160 24p in nvidia custom mode and madvr can't override it. I tried to delete the nividea custom mode but somehow I can't delete it, it just stays there. Any ideas what else I could try?
Also I am getting a bit confused with 30Hz vs 40Hz since the 30Hz setting is very close to 40Hz. Shouldn't 30Hz be close to 30Hz?

2. HDR
I am a bit dissapointed by the results I get with HDR so far. I was expecting to get a better experience in HDR. Well this is whining on a high level since my out of the box without madvr HDR results are really nice already but I was thinking I could further improve it especially with "dynamic HDR". So I tried the HDR->SDR but my impression is it is same level or worse as passthrough at least in my setup. I did not managed to create a 3DLUT especially for HDR yet. I tried to create a BT2020 UHD 3DLUT but it got declined by madvr. Is there a HDR 3DLUT creation guide (e.g. with Calman) which you would recommend?

Summary so far:
All the madvr, lavfilter, nvidia, Windows, kodi, player settings is really time consuming and without the help and good forums like this one I would be totally lost. I have a setup now which I am quite happy with but still some steps to go to reach the all in one play everything in best quality solution. The journey is the reward :)

NoTechi

[Warner306]

There is a Netflix add-on for Kodi v18. It is 1080p only, as far as I know. Link (https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=329767).

I would read this tutorial (https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=223175&pid=2721280#pid2721280) on custom modes. If your refresh rate is stuck in the GPU control panel, you will have to use DDU to remove the drivers and reinstall them. The end of the posted tutorial covers the use of DDU.

I don't know what you mean about 30 Hz and 40 Hz. Custom resolutions will cover a small range of refresh rates (e.g. 22-25 Hz).

madVR's HDR -> SDR conversion is still a work-in-progress with a long ways to go. There is a means to calculate a rolling average of the scene peak luminance, but the tone mapping curve is still fixed. Gamut mapping is still being corrected, so new tone mapping curves won't be added for sometime. I would wait for future builds before returning to this feature. It will continue to evolve as madshi experiments with different formulas. I think it is always at a disadvantage because it has to convert to an SDR gamma, but it definitely has room to improve.

The JVC projector owners I know who are most happy with HDR playback are using a combination of arve custom curves provided by Manni01 and Javs at AVSForums and an HDfury Vertex.

As for HDR 3D LUTs, it seems to be difficult to develop one LUT that works well for all content. Unlike SDR, there are several standards for HDR10 content. The 3D LUT needs to predict the tone mapping done by the display. The problem is the tone mapping curve is not a smooth curve like an SDR gamma curve or grayscale; it is more of an S shape, and the shape of the curve will change based on the set white point of the 3D LUT. If you set the target curve high, dimmer titles will be overcorrected and too dark. If you set the target curve low, brighter titles may go over the limit imposed by the 3D LUT and you will get clipping artifacts. It may be advisable to create a least a couple of 3D LUTs and use the next madVR build, which will allow for different profiles to match the peak nits of the source. I have no idea how many 3D LUTs it would take to get good coverage for all titles.

For questions related to HDR 3D LUTs, I would create an account and post here (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1471169-madvr-argyllcms.html). There is other software out there, but that is the only official forum I know of.

[NoTechi]

Warner many thanks again!

The Kodi Netflix addon sounds promising and I am def going to try it once I decide to switch to Kodi 18.

--------------
Hz/Custom mode
Ok my Hz question was not well phrased. Let me try again :)
In madvr under custom settings I got next to others this two resolutions:
1. 3840x2160 23hz my status is "custom timings, optimization data available"
2. 3840x2160 24hz my status is "custom timings, not measured yet"

For 1. I can optimize using the EDIT mode and according to madvr I should be at 1 frame drop every hour (modes with better results bring the gpu error but 1 hour would be fine)
For 2. I can't get a test "saved" without gpu error message. So I can't optimize this one. I tried some stuff since I don't get why I can't save it even though the test switching into this mode works fine.

When I now play a 4k HDR movie it shows following in the madvr overlay
display 23,97814 Hz
composition rate 23,980 Hz
According to madvr overlay info I have a frame repeat every 4 minutes in average. But when I go back to madvr custom settings and look at the 3840x2160 23 hz optimize data it still says measured 1 frame drop every one hour. So thats what is confusing to me.

My first question is if the movie is using 3840x2160 23hz or 24hz mode. I would guess it is the 23Hz mode even though the rate is with 23,9xxx closer to 24Hz but I can't check since I am in the madvr full screen exclusive mode and can't get madvr settings on top.
Is madvr always adjusting/improving the optimization data in custom modes or do I have to reset it somehow and watch a movie again for 30+ minutes.

My use cases are 3D mvc, native 4k hdr, everything else upscaled to 3840x2160. So my guess is the follwing modes are the only one I need to care about:
1920x1080 23hz --> 3D mvc? (I can optimize those)
3840x2160 23hz --> 4k native and all other upsacled movies beside some uncommen one with 50Hz
3840x2160 50hz --> upscaled live tv. This is working fine and I can otpimize

I would just have to fully deinstall and fresh install the driver if I would need the 3840x2160 24hz mode which I am not sure if I need it at all and if it would work after a fresh install.

----------------------------------
HDR

Yes I get good results with custom curves on my jvc as well but it always leaves the taste that it is just a compromise since it is never really using a curve based on current played scenes/movies. Even though the 1000/1100 and 4000 nits curves are covering the average.

I guess the whole HDR topic I stay with passthrough and custom curves for now and wait for madshi releasing a new version improving the whole HDR topic especially in regards to becoming more "dynamic". If I get bored I might try to create a 3DLUT for HDR again follwing your link since I still would like to know what the results would be using a HDR 3DLUT without downconverting to SDR.
---------------

Again many thanks :)

NoTechi

[Warner306]

I would run DDU from the link posted earlier and start again. It sounds like you can't choose any of the optimized modes. That is the only hope you have of correcting this. Even then, I can't guarantee it will work. I don't know why you're not getting the same timing as the EDID selected for optimization. This might be another reason to run DDU if the custom mode is there but being ignored. This has happened. The custom modes tab could also have an incorrect estimate of the actual frame drops/repeats. As soon as you start playing with custom modes, you run the risk of messing up your drivers. That's just how temperamental it is.

As for HDR, you could consider using your SDR 3D LUT with HDR -> SDR conversion, if you aren't already. It should be selected if you created a BT.2020 3D LUT and selected it in calibration. Using a 3D LUT to get reference color from a tone mapped image isn't always possible.

The problem is a color is more than just a bright pixel. In Y'CbCr color spaces, it is a combination of luminance, hue and saturation. If you reduce the luminance of a set of pixels, you also change the hue and saturation. A hue is how you describe a color: red, green, blue, etc. If you add luminance to a hue, you get a tint (it gets brighter). If you remove luminance from a hue, you get a shade (it gets darker). Saturation is the intensity of a hue. If you reduce luminance, dark colors get brighter (more saturated) and bright colors get darker (less saturated). So, if you change the luminance of an image, you radically alter the colorfulness of any tone mapped pixels. This makes tone mapping more about getting the image to look good with proper color treatment, but not having the ability to create the original colors of the HDR image due to the different positioning of the pixel in the gamut. The 3D LUT is correcting an estimate of color so that it looks good on a display, but this color is still an estimate of what it should be and the 3D LUT can't fix that without making the display brighter. Tone mapped images can still look good, but they won't have perfect color accuracy.

[NoTechi]

I did run DDU now and installed latest drivers (398.11) but without luck. Just tried with 3840x2160 23Hz. The only option which I can "save" is the EDID mode which is basically just in one value different than the native one. It has pixel clock 296,06mhz instead of 296,11mhz which should bring the estimated frame drops from 4 minutes to 1 hour (all other modes still don't work). After applying the EDID mode and rebooting and watching a movie in very first seconds frame drops go up to like 20minutes but then they go back down to 4 minutes and stay there stable. I have the impression the custom mode gets ignored or somehow overwritten a few seconds after running it.
Only thing which comes to my mind now which I could try is going back to an older driver but I don't want to loose the improvements e.g. in 3D or for games with the new drivers. Well I might be just stuck with a 4 minute frame drop for now.

Many thanks for your detailed explanation on 3D LUT even though it takes away my hope for a just calculated perfect image due to a 3D LUT. I can life with not reaching perfection as long as the result is still looking great ;)
And yes I am still jumping between passthrough and HDR->SDR with 3D LUT to figure out which I like more. The results are very close at least thats my personal impression by just watching a movie without any measurements or direct image comparing.
To be honest I did not really understood so far what the difference is between a HDR image with BT2020 in 10 or 12bit and a SDR image with BT2020 in 10 or 12 bit. But the question I ask myself is why do I have to down convert to SDR if my projector is fine receiving HDR. I understand those who are doing this since their projector/TV is not HDR enabled or those with older JVCs where switching resolution is a pain due to long HDMI syncs but in my setup thats not a reason to convert to SDR.

NoTechi

[Warner306]

If you pass through a tone mapped result to the projector's HDR mode, it will often use apply its own tone mapping, which will destroy the result. So, you have to convert to SDR to ensure the display doesn't meddle with the output. It is a limitation necessary to offer another tone mapping option for projector owners and those who don't own HDR displays.

Sorry about the hassle with DDU. I thought it was worth trying:o

[NoTechi]

And if a HDR 3DLUT would have been created with projectors HDR mode on that could/should work without HDR-->SDR transformation wouldn't it? Well I think I just have to test a bit more :)

But a more general question if SDR would be limited to 8bit (which is like the definition for SDR isn't it?) that would be bad. I remember the banding I got on my former projector which was limitied to 8bit. But since HDR --> SDR from madvr is putting out 10 bit it is ok again. But if that is true what is the difference between HDR and SDR in 10bit at all? :)

The DDU advise was a good one which I most likely will use more often then I would like to ;) Manni just posted his experience with the new nvidia driver in main madvr thread which made me think again and I might try 385.28 again ... ;)

NoTechi

[Warner306]

And if a HDR 3DLUT would have been created with projectors HDR mode on that could/should work without HDR-->SDR transformation wouldn't it? Well I think I just have to test a bit more :)

But a more general question if SDR would be limited to 8bit (which is like the definition for SDR isn't it?) that would be bad. I remember the banding I got on my former projector which was limitied to 8bit. But since HDR --> SDR from madvr is putting out 10 bit it is ok again. But if that is true what is the difference between HDR and SDR in 10bit at all? :)

The DDU advise was a good one which I most likely will use more often then I would like to ;) Manni just posted his experience with the new nvidia driver in main madvr thread which made me think again and I might try 385.28 again ... ;)

NoTechi

Yes, an HDR 3D LUT can work with the projector's HDR mode and provide correction.

When madVR converts from Y'CbCr to RGB, the result is 32-bit floating point, so it can be dithered to any output bit depth, 8-bit or 10-bit. The key point is dithering is used, so it can be very difficult to tell the difference between 8-bit and 10-bit when watching anything.