Archiving DVD's problem

[musicman]

Hi I'm going to be archiving DVD's for our Church, and I started with the oldest from 2005, and I noticed certain motions have jaggies. The jaggies don't go across the screen but are limited to where te motion is. I'm using Handbrake and I've tried different presets. It has to be h.264 in a mp4 container. I've experimented with deinterlacing based on some suggestions online but it hasn't fixed it. Is it even something that's fixable? Or is it because it was an old camera recording on an old dvd recorder?

Thanks

[LoRd_MuldeR]

This is called "interlacing". Or, more specifically, it is what happens when you resize "interlaced" material without deinterlacing it first.

Applying a deinterlacing filter is the right thing to do. But you have to be absolutely sure that you apply the deinterlacing filter on the original "interlaced" material - prior to any resizing.

Once "interlaced" material has been resized without deinterlacing it first, it is pretty much impossible to fix/undo, except by going back to the original unprocessed footage.

If you expect more help, please upload a small(!) and completely unprocessed(!) chunk from your original DVD...

See also: http://100fps.com/

[musicman]

I've began reading the link in your post, is this apply to NTSC? It refers to 25fps, is that what video cameras and VCR's recorded at?

[LoRd_MuldeR]

I've began reading the link in your post, is this apply to NTSC? It refers to 25fps, is that what video cameras and VCR's recorded at?

Actually PAL and NTSC are obsolete analogue TV transmission standards.

In the "digital world" these standards have no meaning, except that a resolution of 720×480 pixels with a framerate of 29.97 is sometimes called "NTSC" for historical reasons. The same goes for "PAL", which refers to 720×576 at 25 fps.

Anyhow, interlacing can be used with "NTSC" as well as "PAL", or even "HD" footage. The frame rate doesn't really matter either. But there always are two "half pictures" stored in each "interlaced" frame.

For example, if you have an "interlaced" stream with 29.97 "interlaced" frames per second, than a "full rate" deinterlacer will output 59.94 progressive frames. Just like a 25 fps "interlaced" stream would result in 50 fps after deinterlacing...

[Gser]

Also you might want to either signal the SD colorspace with the appropriate bitstream flags for NTSC content --colorprim smpte170m --transfer smpte170m --colormatrix smpte170m or convert the colorspace to HD specs with colormatrix mode "Rec.601->Rec.709". https://avisynth.org.ru/docs/english/externalfilters/colormatrix.htm Since it appears you are upscaling to HD resolution. Some DVD's are encoded at Rec.709, there are instructions in the link to see how you can find out which colorspace is used.

[Ghitulescu]

Hi I'm going to be archiving DVD's for our Church...

If the Church would not have enough money for storage, then who else... The IRS?

I gather these are private DVDs, thus no copyright protections of any kind. Therefore, COPY/PASTE :)

[Sharc]

Hi I'm going to be archiving DVD's for our Church, and I started with the oldest from 2005, and I noticed certain motions have jaggies. The jaggies don't go across the screen but are limited to where te motion is. I'm using Handbrake and I've tried different presets. It has to be h.264 in a mp4 container. I've experimented with deinterlacing based on some suggestions online but it hasn't fixed it. Is it even something that's fixable? Or is it because it was an old camera recording on an old dvd recorder?

Thanks
Do you see the jaggies when you play your DVD via a standalone HW player + TV?
If the DVD video is interlaced and you watch it via PC+monitor without deinterlacing you will always see such jaggies or combes, even more so when you downscale the picture for viewing.

Can you upload a few seconds sample of the .vob file? Perhaps the problem is already on the DVD (poor transfer).
For archiving I would recommend to make 1:1 copies of the original DVD as Ghitulescu wrote. If you process the source "somehow" you may introduce irreversible new artefacts.

[musicman]

I've never used a VOB editor before, so let me try playing it in different set top players. I have some "regular" DVD players and I also have an Oppo 93.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

I've never used a VOB editor before, so let me try playing it in different set top players. I have some "regular" DVD players and I also have an Oppo 93.

If it's really "interlaced" footage, then most likely either the DVD Player or the TV Screen will do the required de-interlacing. So if you don't see the "combing" artifacts on the TV Screen, don't be surprised ;)

The same goes for "software" DVD players on your PC. Therefore it is very important that you look at the original footage in some editor that does not apply any kind of post-processing...

(Again: The best thing would be to provide an unprocessed chunk of the original VOB files. You may use, for example, DGSplit (http://rationalqm.us/dgsplit/dgsplit12.zip) for this purpose - provided you have ripped the VOB's to your HDD already)

[musicman]

Ok, I just realized that there is no tearing when I play the DVD in my computer using Media Player HC. When I copied the .vob onto my computer and played it with the same player, it had lots of tearing.

[Sharc]

What do mean by tearing? MPC-HC has a lot of settings how to play a video source. It may or may not deinterlace, may blend the fields etc.
So how does it look when you play the DVD with your DVD player(s) and watch on TV?
The original source was perhaps a VHS tape which has been - more or less correctly - transferred to DVD.

Without a sample it is difficult to give you good advice.

[Ghitulescu]

He means interlacing.

Probably a teaching to him to archive them as DVDs and not, WRONGLY, as VOBs or whatever. The OP must understand how interlacing works, because, if I would be the priest of the parish he destroyed the recorded memories I'd excommunicate him... :) :) :)

[musicman]

He means interlacing.

Probably a teaching to him to archive them as DVDs and not, WRONGLY, as VOBs or whatever. The OP must understand how interlacing works, because, if I would be the priest of the parish he destroyed the recorded memories I'd excommunicate him... :) :) :)

Only the Pope has that authority. :)

I will try the BGSplit tonight to make a clip.

[musicman]

So just to recap, when I play the DVD in my computer using MPC-HC, there is no problem. But when I rip it using Handbrake using H.264 codec in a MP4 container, I get video lines wherever there is motion. They don't occur across the entire screen. I'd like to rip them and archive them without loosing any quality but be playable using an "average office PC or Mac."

Thanks

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=81908695894408675023

Attachment

[LoRd_MuldeR]

So, yeah, definitely interlaced video. Here you see the "original" interlaced frame (left) and the two separated fields, stacked vertically (right):

https://i.imgur.com/fJHDEQM.jpg

...as you can see, the hand has moved in between the two fields (the fields are from different time indices!), which is why you get those "combing" artifacts if the fields are weaved into a single frame.

[StainlessS]

I dont have Handbrake installed at the moment and long time since I used it,
Looks like you are upsizing without deinterlacing, you should not do that.
I presume that there is an option to deinterlace first, try it.

[Sharc]

So just to recap, when I play the DVD in my computer using MPC-HC, there is no problem. But when I rip it using Handbrake using H.264 codec in a MP4 container, I get video lines wherever there is motion. They don't occur across the entire screen. I'd like to rip them and archive them without loosing any quality but be playable using an "average office PC or Mac."

Thanks

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=81908695894408675023

Attachment
The video is interlaced, 720x480, 29.97 fps or 59.94 fields per second.

... when I play the DVD in my computer using MPC-HC, there is no problem....
Because MPC-HC apparently kicks its deinterlacer or bobber in, and you see it on the monitor as progressive video without the combing artefacts.

... But when I rip it using Handbrake using H.264 codec in a MP4 container, I get video lines wherever there is motion ....
I am not familiar with Handbrake, but I suspect that Handbrake encodes the video as interlaced, and for some reason the player does not recognize it as interlaced and plays it without deinterlacing - hence you see the combes on the PC monitor.
Try to enable a deinterlacer in Handbrake, or force the deinterlacer (or bobber) in MPC-HC so the video gets deinterlaced during playback.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

musicman, here is what a script as simple as this (https://gist.github.com/anonymous/acc0b7538ea87193d2cf51ac4bcbd23c) can do to your sample :)
musicman_sample_v2.zip (http://www.mediafire.com/file/26a513kdo3osfno/musicman_sample_v2.zip)

[StainlessS]

This tab (Deinterlace)

https://s20.postimg.org/6p5h7nk25/Handbrake.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

EDIT: Maybe try Deinterlace=Slower

Dont know where you would choose field order, perhaps is automatic.

EDIT: Handbrake help seems to be Offline.
Also try Preview before render.

EDIT: A forum thread on deinterlace field order (I have not read it).
http://forum.digital-digest.com/f114/handbrake-help-94946-2.html

Another one:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/388097-Handbrake-Home-Recorded-DVDs-to-MP4s-Best-Deinterlace-Settings

More:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=QlCYWq74DIKYgAaPoLawDg&q=handbrake+field+order&oq=handbrake+field+order&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1557.5834.0.6020.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.RYJQyPAfrXk

[Sharc]

musicman

I just tried Handbrake. No problem with settings like:

Filters Tab:
Detelecine: off
Deinterlace: yadif
others leave at default

Video Tab:
Framerate 29.97
Constant Framerate

You will get a deinterlace video without combes.
Good luck.

[StainlessS]

musicman

I just tried Handbrake. No problem with settings like:

Filters Tab:
Detelecine: off
Deinterlace: yadif
others leave at default

Video Tab:
Framerate 29.97
Constant Framerate

You will get a deinterlace video without combes.
Good luck.

Yadif, guess I need a new version HandBrake, cheers for that.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

As for Yadif: There surely are worse deinterlacers, so it's quite okay for "quick and dirty" deinterlacing, but it doesn't get anywhere close to QTGMC ;)

[StainlessS]

Yadif, guess I need a new version HandBrake, cheers for that.

Actually, my version HB was already v0.9.9-1, which was last for WinXP, current is v1.0.7, ie VISTA+ [EDIT: With SP2].

EDIT: HandBrake on VideoHelp:- https://www.videohelp.com/software/HandBrake

[Sharc]

As for Yadif: There surely are worse deinterlacers, so it's quite okay for "quick and dirty" deinterlacing, but it doesn't get anywhere close to QTGMC ;)
True, but (some) people may have problems with making QTGMC working.... ;)

[StainlessS]

In actual fact, Yadif mode was present in 2014, so maybe version I have is updated compared to Sharc's version.
I'm guessin that Slower is maybe QTGMC, but cannot find working manual as yet, site is down.

EDIT: Current docs seem to be incomplete:-
https://handbrake.fr/docs/en/latest/technical/filters-summary.html

EDIT: There are several HandBrake alternatives (GUI's which use the CLI version of HandBrake), eg EasyBrake,and VidCoder.

EDIT: HandBrake Forum:- https://forum.handbrake.fr/
EDIT: Suggest search on above forum, with eg "Deinterlace,Slower" or whatever valid options are available in your version HandBrake,
eg "Deinterlace,Yadif" for old version about 2014. Forum seems quite active.

[manolito]

The title of this thread says that the OP wants to "Archive" these DVDs. Being able to deinterlace the footage using the best possible methods is nice, but it has absolutely nothing to do with "Archiving".

As Ghitulescu pointed out, for "archiving" the original DVDs should not be processed in any way. Do not filter, do not resize, do not reencode to a different format. If the DVD has extras and menus then just make an ISO out of it (ImgBurn is one of the many tools for this). If there is only the main movie without extras and menus then you can use MakeMKV to repack the title into an MKV container (this will keep the chapter points and subs).


Cheers
manolito

[StainlessS]

I guess that it depends upon your definition of archive.
To a video processing specialist, it may well mean as you describe,
to more normal people (not that video specialists aren't normal), it might just mean store
for posterity, not necessarily in an exact original unprocessed format.
As OP mentions deinterlacing, it is clearly not the former definition that is intended nor required.

[musicman]

The title of this thread says that the OP wants to "Archive" these DVDs. Being able to deinterlace the footage using the best possible methods is nice, but it has absolutely nothing to do with "Archiving".

As Ghitulescu pointed out, for "archiving" the original DVDs should not be processed in any way. Do not filter, do not resize, do not reencode to a different format. If the DVD has extras and menus then just make an ISO out of it (ImgBurn is one of the many tools for this). If there is only the main movie without extras and menus then you can use MakeMKV to repack the title into an MKV container (this will keep the chapter points and subs).


Cheers
manolito

I use MakeMKV for my personal DVD collection, but these need to be compatible with Windows Media player 12 to current version. Also iMac needs to have native support and neither support MKV out of the box. Not sure about High Sierra though. ISO is a nice option but for personal use because I'm computer savvy.

musicman

I just tried Handbrake. No problem with settings like:

Filters Tab:
Detelecine: off
Deinterlace: yadif
others leave at default

Video Tab:
Framerate 29.97
Constant Framerate

You will get a deinterlace video without combes.
Good luck.

I tried this but it didn't work unfortunately.

[Sharc]

I tried this but it didn't work unfortunately.
Strange. Maybe something is broken with your Handbrake installation?
Upload a sample of your encoded video.

[musicman]

Strange. Maybe something is broken with your Handbrake installation?
Upload a sample of your encoded video.

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=05542886157687997279

[Sharc]

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=05542886157687997279
Your encode is correctly deinterlaced except a few frames around frame #220. Strange. Maybe a problem with the deinterlacer or with the source video.
I may do few more tests tomorrow .....

[Sharc]

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=05542886157687997279
In Handbrake disable yadif's interlace detection by setting Interlace Detection: OFF.
This will force yadif to deinterlace ALL frames.

[musicman]

In Handbrake disable yadif's interlace detection by setting Interlace Detection: OFF.
This will force yadif to deinterlace ALL frames.

Awesome! Thanks Sharc!

Now as far is video quality, is ISO the only option that retains all quality? Even using the settings Optimize Video: VerySlow & Quality Constant 16, there is still a noticeable difference. The DVD is more "smoother", and the encoded version has what I would call noise artifacts and a little blurriness in motion.

Thanks again

[Sharc]

Awesome! Thanks Sharc!

Now as far is video quality, is ISO the only option that retains all quality? Even using the settings Optimize Video: VerySlow & Quality Constant 16, there is still a noticeable difference. The DVD is more "smoother", and the encoded version has what I would call noise artifacts and a little blurriness in motion.

Thanks again
As long as you don't process the video stream, the quality will be preserved. You can repack the video into a different container, as long as you don't touch the video the quality will be kept.
Now you deinterlace and re-encode the video. That means you process it. Therefore you will inevitably affect the quality in some aspect. Deinterlacing for example reduces (halves!) the temporal resolution which can give the impression of lost sharpness and crispiness, in addition to introducing artefacts due to the synthetization of the missing field.
As has been mentioned, there are better deinterlacers than yadif.

Edit:
You won't loose temporal resolution when you bob-deinterlace your video, means doubling the framerate
In Handbrake:
Deinterlace: yadif Preset: bob Interlace Detection: Off
Framerate (FPS): 59.94, Constant Framerate

Still, for every frame the missing field will be synthesized (interpolated), hence it is also not free of artifacts

But perhaps you like the result better.

[musicman]

As long as you don't process the video stream, the quality will be preserved. You can repack the video into a different container, as long as you don't touch the video the quality will be kept.
Now you deinterlace and re-encode the video. That means you process it. Therefore you will inevitably affect the quality in some aspect. Deinterlacing for example reduces (halves!) the temporal resolution which can give the impression of lost sharpness and crispiness, in addition to introducing artefacts due to the synthetization of the missing field.
As has been mentioned, there are better deinterlacers than yadif.

Edit:
You won't loose temporal resolution when you bob-deinterlace your video, means doubling the framerate
In Handbrake:
Deinterlace: yadif Preset: bob Interlace Detection: Off
Framerate (FPS): 59.94, Constant Framerate

Still, for every frame the missing field will be synthesized (interpolated), hence it is also not free of artifacts

But perhaps you like the result better.

Thanks! Those presets did improve the video quality. It's probably as good as it will get unless I do ISO.