Recommended way to source DV AVIs on 64-bit?

[shae]

For DV AVIs sources, what's the recommended way to source them on 64-bit AVS, in terms of quality and speed?

Some options I see:

* ffdshow-tryouts, assuming AviSource is recommended over DirectShowSource. 64-bit version doesn't seem to work, but 32-bit is potentially faster than Windows' stock Mainconcept DV.
* LSMASHSource or FFmpegSource
* Something else?

Dismissed options:

* Cedocida DV (http://www.cithraidt.de/cedocida/index.html) - potentially slower than Windows' stock Mainconcept DV, also in its 64-bit version.

Edit: Actually, knowing the final encode speeds would need more studying. All of them don't max the CPU in wildly different ways.

[jmartinr]

I would still go for cedocida. It's ability to get the chroma placement right is invaluable.

[juhok]

ffmpeg/ffms2 (maybe others too?) defaults to error concealment with DV bitstream errors (there are always some). Cedocida doesn't even have the option. IMHO this is invaluable.

[shae]

I would still go for cedocida. It's ability to get the chroma placement right is invaluable.
I'm still not sure what I should use there. For PAL DV -> AVC, is the "YV12 MPEG2 progressive" decode option the right choice?

juhok: Probably doesn't matter in my case because the source is analog. I guess the vidcam encodes it on the fly for output.

[jmartinr]

For PAL DV -> AVC, is the "YV12 MPEG2 interlaced" decode option the right choice? Yes. Normally it's interlaced.

[shae]

I mean, as opposed to "YV12 DV".

[jmartinr]

I mean, as opposed to "YV12 DV".

If you want to process it and encode to something non-DV, you need MPEG2 chroma placement.

[shae]

It was a bit misleading at first. I guess Cedocida decides automatically what's the native video chroma sampling. I initially thought of the decode setting as choosing "how chroma is stored natively in the decoded video" rather than "what chroma is expected by the post-decode pipeline".

MPEG2 progressive is still a mystery, but I guess it doesn't matter.

[jmartinr]

MPEG2 progressive is still a mystery, but I guess it doesn't matter.
There are some DV-camera's that can produce progressive DV. Saves you the trouble of deinterlacing.

[shae]

So the hardware or software can't necessarily be relied upon to automatically decide if the source is progressive or interlaced?

[jmartinr]

So the hardware or software can't necessarily be relied upon to automatically decide if the source is progressive or interlaced?
Indeed. I've got a camera that can do progressive. The way of storing information is exactly the same for progressive.

[poisondeathray]

You can have progressive content, but DV (from DV cameras) is never native progressive . There is always some pulldown for storage (encoded interaced in fields) , like 3:2 or 2:3:3:2 , so you still have to do something (ie remove pulldown) if not deinterlacing. Whereas native progressive cameras, have completely progressive content and encoding/storage

EDIT: oops but you're talking about PAL right ? I stupidly am assuming the world is NTSC. But even PAL DV 25p is 2:2 (not native progressively encoded, but it's "simpler" in that you can just weave and treat as progressive)

[jmartinr]

But even PAL DV 25p is 2:2 (not native progressively encoded, but it's "simpler" in that you can just weave and treat as progressive)
That's what I was trying to say. It's stored exactly the same way as interlaced.

[poisondeathray]

Dismissed options:

* Cedocida DV (http://www.cithraidt.de/cedocida/index.html) - potentially slower than Windows' stock Mainconcept DV, also in its 64-bit version.

Edit: Actually, knowing the final encode speeds would need more studying. All of them don't max the CPU in wildly different ways.




For the speeds, ffms2 / lsmash are probably 3-4x faster for decoding than cedocida. But that might only translate to +0.5% final encoding speed difference faster when using QTGMC (which I assume you're still doing from your other thread), because the huge bottleneck is QTGMC, not decoding. Unless your encoder is working at a few hundred fps, cedocida is not going to be the bottleneck. Cedocida can easily become bottleneck when gpu encoding (no QTGMC) for example.

You're using PAL, but for NTSC, so this doesn't affect you - but only libav derivatives can return the native 4:1:1 color for NTSC (not that it's any helpful, because you're probably not going to keep it like that, but some people might want to specify or have control over the method/algorithm for conversion)

[shae]

Yeah, decoding anyway takes the least CPU time in the whole transcode pipeline. Considering benchmarking got hairy, I just gave up on that and settled on Cedocida because of its MPEG-compatible chroma output. Other decoders, I have no idea what they do.

[TCmullet]

I'm trying to install Cedocida 0.2.3 via "cedocida_dv_only.inf" on Windows 10, but it gives me the error message "The third-party INF does not contain digital signature information." What does this mean and how can I get around it so I can read my DV AVIs in Avisynth?

[StainlessS]

Plenty on Google:- https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=QRuYXPukNeWMlwS34ZHoAQ&q=The+third-party+INF+does+not+contain+digital+signature+information&btnK=Google+Search&oq=The+third-party+INF+does+not+contain+digital+signature+information&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0j0i22i30l3.1725.1725..2160...0.0..0.143.143.0j1......0....2j1..gws-wiz.....0.V_aaoSBf9Do

You dont say if 32 or 64 bit OS, 64 bit OS requires 64 bit drivers (I think, so could be awkward at the least, also relevent is Cedocida bittage).

Also here with 'Cedocida' added to the search parameters.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=IRyYXKnMNOyW1fAP-r-64Ak&q=The+third-party+INF+does+not+contain+digital+signature+information+%22Cedocida%22&oq=The+third-party+INF+does+not+contain+digital+signature+information+%22Cedocida%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...5950.7964..8236...0.0..0.132.226.1j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71.UFAL4JdSQ0g

[TCmullet]

Well, I have Win 10-64bit, but my Vdub is 32, and I think my Avisynth+ is 32bit b/c it is in "Program Files (x86)" folder. As I gratefully try your Googles, it looks like I have to do "Advanced Startup" and "Disable driver signature enforcement" and reboot. Yukky. But I guess I can do that, install cedocida, then go back and undo the "disable".

This is for Avisynth processing of the DV AVI. Vdub is only the output processor.

I've discovered that I CAN use Directshow to read the AVI, but that is so frame inaccurate esp. if I do any scrubbing of the Vdub timeline that it's ridiculous.

[Asmodian]

You might try DirectShowSource2 and transcode it to something lossless that is easier to work with as a first step. This avoids needing to seek when using DirectShow and you don't need to deal with installing unsigned drivers.

[StainlessS]

If trancode is a viable option, might consider this

Whatever.Bat

REM We DO NOT LIKE SPACES IN FILE NAMES (REM == REMark ie comment)

setlocal

REM Where to Find ffmpeg
set FFMPEG="C:\BIN\ffmpeg.exe"

REM Where to get input file, No terminating Backslash, "." = current directory (ie same as this dir .bat file)
set INDIR="."

REM Where to place output file, No terminating Backslash. "." would be same as .bat file
set OUTDIR="D:"

REM Below, can add extensionas as eg *.WMV (SPACE separated)
FOR %%A IN (*.mp4 *.vob *.mpg *.TS) DO (

REM ****** Un-REM ONLY one of below lines *******.
%FFMPEG% -i "%INDIR%\%%A" -vcodec copy -acodec copy "%OUTDIR%\%%~nxA.MKV"
REM %FFMPEG% -i "%INDIR%\%%A" -vcodec utvideo -acodec copy "%OUTDIR%\%%~nxA.MKV"
REM %FFMPEG% -i "%INDIR%\%%A" -vcodec utvideo -acodec pcm_s16le "%OUTDIR%\%%~nxA.AVI"
REM *********************************************.

)

REM ... Above UN-REM'ed lines :
REM (1) Remux, copy both video and audio (output MKV).
REM (2) UtVideo lossless video, copy audio (output MKV).
REM (3) UtVideo lossless video, PCM audio (output AVI).

Pause

I usually only ever use anything else if DVD VOB (DGIndex), saves me a lot of wasted time not having to try figure out which is best decoder/args.
Above a sort of demo for use.

[TCmullet]

I really really don't want to add a transcode step. I have many dozens of videos to process; an already huge project. (I had already considered that as a lazy way to avoid having to seek out a codec.)

I am not finding the google searching for answers to be helpful. The one thing I found that seemed hopeful says "Click Start, then type...." Dang, you can't type anything by clicking Start; you have to pick a PROGRAM! So I'm feeling rather lost now. Isn't there a DV codec out there that DOES (with no fudging) install on Win 10?? (Or if fudging required, then something that is straightforward enough AND easily reversible?)

[StainlessS]

"Click Start, then type...."

Would that perhaps mean, Click START/RUN/ etc, Ie use the command line (probably as Admin).

(probably slightly different on W10 which I dont have running at the moment, but just start the command processor as Admin and type into that)

[TCmullet]

Well, that would make sense, but man oh man, if someone's writing a precise lists of steps for a layman to go through and publishing it on the web, you'd think they'd proofread it carefully, esp. for such a gross omission. I'll give it a try.

[Asmodian]

If I simply start typing after clicking start in Windows 10 it works fine, no need to select a program.

e.g. simply typing "cmd" will show the Command Prompt desktop application with options for Open, Run as administrator, etc.

[Stereodude]

The one thing I found that seemed hopeful says "Click Start, then type...." Dang, you can't type anything by clicking Start; you have to pick a PROGRAM! So I'm feeling rather lost now. Isn't there a DV codec out there that DOES (with no fudging) install on Win 10?? (Or if fudging required, then something that is straightforward enough AND easily reversible?)
:confused: Windows 10's start menu works precisely that way. Click the Windows icon to open it and you can start typing. I think 8 and 8.1 work the same way. Now granted I use OpenShell so that doesn't work for me. I'd have to click in the search box first, but it sounds the directions are perfectly reasonable.

[TCmullet]

I use Classic Shell. So I guess I'll try "search" for "files and folders".

[StainlessS]

I dont use Classic Shell under W10 (I do under W7), but in W10, Command Prompt is in Windows System folder (Right click More ... / Run As Administrator).

[Stereodude]

I use Classic Shell. So I guess I'll try "search" for "files and folders".
Why don't you show us the instructions and we'll tell you how else to get there?

[TCmullet]

Why don't you show us the instructions and we'll tell you how else to get there?

https://www.urtech.ca/2016/01/solved-the-third-party-inf-does-not-contain-digital-signature-information/
2nd option "GUI".

[Stereodude]

https://www.urtech.ca/2016/01/solved-the-third-party-inf-does-not-contain-digital-signature-information/
2nd option "GUI".
Bring up the Settings in Windows 10 and do a search for RECOVERY OPTIONS in the "Find a setting" box and then follow the rest of the instructions.

[TCmullet]

Well.... a bunch of strange things have happened. All this came about because I could not read my DV files in Avisynth. Got temporary access by using DirectShowSource. But I wanted more frame-accurate processing, so I found that Cedocida DV Codec v0.2.3 was what I wanted. (I had had an earlier version on XP years before.) The Cedocida .INF is what gave me an error like "The Third-Party INF Does Not Contain Digital Signature Information" This led me to the link above, which "surface failure" led me to find this thread here to ask you smart guys about this.

I was able to use the very strange recovery reboot sequence. (Two reboots are involved. The 2nd one was very contra-intuitive. It said pick this to change various items including "DISABLE DRIVER SIGNATURE ENFORCEMENT" but only gave "Restart" as an option. But after picking that, it DID let me do the "DISABLE". (Had to press the "7" key.)

I've now brought the system back up. I elected to try avisource("myDVfile.avi") just to see the error again, as I had not yet re-attempted the Cedocida install. It did not give me an error. In fact, when I open the .avi directly in Vdub, it says that the decompressor is Cedocida 0.2.3! I go to WMP and sure enough that codec is in place! But I never successfully installed it! It failed before I made the change to Windows to disable signature enforcement!

How the hell is this happening??

[poisondeathray]

Why don' t you use ffms2 ? Is this for NTSC DV or PAL DV ?

[ChaosKing]

I just tried to open my DV.avi captures via ffms2 and lsmash, both can read the file and seeking is frame accurate.
Format : DV
Commercial name : DVCPRO
Codec ID : dvsd
Codec ID/Hint : Sony

[Metal-HTPC]

I'm trying to install Cedocida 0.2.3 via "cedocida_dv_only.inf" on Windows 10, but it gives me the error message "The third-party INF does not contain digital signature information." What does this mean and how can I get around it so I can read my DV AVIs in Avisynth?

I'm having the same problem and basically searched for hours for a solution which sadly isnt there. It seems that with an up to date version of Windows 10 it is impossible to install this driver.
The mostly suggested cmd commands

bcdedit /set loadoptions DDISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS & bcdedit /set testsigning on

also don't help here.

It's a bummer as cedocida was an awesome lossless compression avi codec which got all the chroma placement right

[richardpl]

Whats wrong with ffms/ffmpeg chroma placement in DV?

[Metal-HTPC]

nothing wrong with ffmpeg's -vcodec utvideo which is using fourcc ULY0 and can be decompressed with directshow in avs as suggested by StainlessS.
However I was looking for a way to use an avi format with lossless compression which aside from avs can also be used as an encoder in tmpegenc. Cedocida was perfect for it.

[poisondeathray]

However I was looking for a way to use an avi format with lossless compression which aside from avs can also be used as an encoder in tmpegenc. Cedocida was perfect for it.

DV is lossy compression; Cedocida is not lossless

[FranceBB]

cedocida was an awesome lossless compression avi codec


Isn't Cedocida a lossy DV encoder limited to 8bit anyway?
I mean, the last version is 0.2.3 from 2012 and I'm pretty sure it's yv12, YUY2, RGB24 and RGB32 only anyway.
You're better off using anything more modern. Personally I capture any analog sources in v210 lossless 4:2:2 and then I re-encode them to HuffYUV 4:2:2 10bit lossless.
There are plenty of other really lossless codecs like UTVideo and FFV1 that are high bit depth and of course you could always use the lossless modes of x264 and x265 too!


got all the chroma placement right


About the chroma location, if you're in PAL-Land and you have DV sources, it's really nothing special as it's top_left with yv12 sampling.
Now, chroma location is a concept that only exists in yv12 (and the relative high bit depth version) where it can have 6 possible values, but it doesn't apply to other sampling like 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 where chroma can have only one location.
Given that back in the days Avisynth didn't support any kind of chroma_location other than the standard "left" and DV sources were top_left, all indexers were outputting YUY2, i.e 4:2:2 interleaved (with the chroma upscaled), so that it could have been easily converted back to yv12 with chroma_location set as left automatically.


Now, let's jump back to 2022 and your use-case:

Nowadays, this thing is no longer true 'cause Avisynth supports lots of things, including, of course, all 6 possible yv12 chroma_location values (which includes DV's top_left).
Not only this, it's also possible to convert the chroma_location directly inside Avisynth as a frameserver or indeed using other things like FFMpeg before re-encoding to whatever is needed.
Speaking of codecs that do support top_left chroma location for yv12 and that are either lossy or have a lossless mode, your best shot would be x265 with the lossless option. ;)


p.s @Metal-HTPC... speaking of lossless, Cedocida isn't a codec, it was an encoder (and decoder) for DV flavors like DVCPRO25, DVCPRO50 etc which are lossy, not lossless.

DV is lossy compression; Cedocida is not lossless

+1
Indeed

[Metal-HTPC]

thanks a lot FranceBB. I guess I will stay with UT video then :-)