Severity of BD Rebuilder problem from program installing new LAV version?

[hbenthow]

I previously had installed BD Rebuilder according to the instructions found at this link (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=143716).

However, I recently ran into a snag. I installed the program Zoom Player Max, which unfortunately automatically installed a new version of LAV Filters (0.69, to be exact) as part of its installation process. As anyone who has read the instructions on how to install BD Rebuilder knows, this can cause BD Rebuilder to output out-of-sync audio.

Clearly, I must remedy this issue. The problem is that I need to know just how severe and deep-rooted the problem now is. Would it suffice to merely uninstall the new version of LAV Filters through Control Panel, then reinstall the recommended version (0.65)? Or has the new version of LAV made other hidden changes to my system to such a severe extent that I will need to revert to the last system image backup that I made (from before installing Zoom Player) in order to solve this issue?

[ggtop]

Uninstall and reinstalling the recommended version should do it. Afterwards run BDRB in admin mode one time, so that BDRB has the authorization to make its specific settings in the registry.
My personal recommendation is using a different frame-server such as DGDecNV or DGDecIM and not rely on DirectShow.
ggtop

[hbenthow]

My personal recommendation is using a different frame-server such as DGDecNV or DGDecIM and not rely on DirectShow.

How would I go about doing that? Is this recommendation specifically because of the LAV incident, or just general advice? And what difference in particular would it make?

[DrinkLyeAndDie]

See if there is a separate uninstall to remove the Zoom Player codec pack under Programs and Features. There might be but my memory is fuzzy on that. I definitely know that from within Zoom Player's Install Center you can add/remove/update codecs and such.

FWIW, I happen to use Zoom Player from time to time and I always uncheck the Run the Install Center and Install Codec Pack options during install. Never had any issues this way.

[hbenthow]

See if there is a separate uninstall to remove the Zoom Player codec pack under Programs and Features. There might be but my memory is fuzzy on that. I definitely know that from within Zoom Player's Install Center you can add/remove/update codecs and such.

It only has options to uninstall Zoom Player itself, and each codec individually. There's no option to remove the codec pack.

The codecs that it installed are LAV Filters 0.69, MadVR, DirectVobSub, DCoder Image Source, Bass Audio Decoder, and 3DYD Youtube Source.

What should I do at this point?

[videoh]

Uninstall all the codecs and then Zoom Player itself. Then re-install BDRB. You're making this way too hard.

[hbenthow]

Uninstall all the codecs and then Zoom Player itself. Then re-install BDRB. You're making this way too hard.

If I were to do all of that, I might as well just go back to the last system image backup that I made. It would be easier and achieve the same result with no risk of leaving any negative changes behind.

Also, it happens that the version of Zoom Player that I installed was part of a temporary giveaway deal that expired last night (meaning that if I uninstall it and reinstall it, it won't be registered).

[videoh]

If I were to do all of that, I might as well just go back to the last system image backup that I made. Nonsense. You would revert the entire system that way.

It would be easier and achieve the same result with no risk of leaving any negative changes behind. If you think so, then go for it.

Also, it happens that the version of Zoom Player that I installed was part of a temporary giveaway deal that expired last night (meaning that if I uninstall it and reinstall it, it won't be registered). Then do what others have already suggested. Just delete the codec (LAV) that is causing problems and then reinstall BDRB's LAV. Take a system backup first if you are paranoid. Stop agonizing and start acting!

[hbenthow]

Nonsense. You would revert the entire system that way.

I know. That's what I usually do whenever I think there's any risk that installing a program messed something up on my system. Reverting to a backup means that I know there are no residual effects of the installation or uninstallation.

Then do what others have already suggested. Just delete the codec (LAV?) that is causing problems and then reinstall BDRB. Stop agonizing and start acting!

Do you believe that this would be enough to ensure that BD Rebuilder would work properly?

Also, what do you make of this statement by ggtop?

My personal recommendation is using a different frame-server such as DGDecNV or DGDecIM and not rely on DirectShow.

Is this something that I need to concern myself with?

[videoh]

Do you believe that this would be enough to ensure that BD Rebuilder would work properly? Yes, I believe so. I think the key is to re-install BDRB in toto, letting it install all of its desired codecs.

Also, what do you make of this statement by ggtop?
...
Is this something that I need to concern myself with? ggtop is a smart, experienced guy so I would certainly be inclined to favorably consider his advice. I'm not that familiar with the DG stuff but my understanding is that it is more reliable for any scripts requiring random access, that it works for some streams that may fail with DirectShowSource(), such as interlaced VC1, and that in some cases it can speed up transcoding. On the other hand, it requires a modest donation and it may not bring much to the table for your simple BDRB rebuilding jobs, although I also understand it is used by a good number of BDRB users.

[jdobbs]

I'm not that familiar with the DG stuff...Uhh... ok...

Just as a point of reference -- I use it almost exclusively. :) In fact -- DGDecNV is the main reason I use an NVidia card in my dedicated encoding computer.

[videoh]

Uhh... ok... Of course I meant in the context of BDRB. :) I have done a total of one rebuild using your awesome software. I simply don't do any backing up to speak of, except to troubleshoot issues that occasionally arise. Nevertheless, from that one use of BDRB, I was totally impressed by the simplicity, efficacy, and flexibility of the BDRB interface and the result was flawless. Should I ever need to do any real backups BDRB will be my natural choice.

May the force be with you, jdobbs.

[manolito]

The first page of the BD-Rebuilder thread says that LAVFilters 0.65 is required, any other versions could cause audio/video sync problems.

Sorry, I do not buy it. LAVFilters 0.69 stable was released in December 2016, it is perfectly reliable and I do not see any reason why it would cause sync errors when the old and deprecated version 0.65 would not.


Cheers
manolito


//EDIT//
One additional recommendation for all versions of LAVFilters is to use DSS2Mod by forclip instead of DirectShowSource.dll. Much better results for source clips which are borked at the start (orphaned B-Frames).

[videoh]

You could very well be correct, but jdobbs rightly recommends certain versions that he has tested and can certify to work correctly with his application. I suppose he is always evaluating possible tool upgrades and if users are requesting an update he would respond when possible.

[ggtop]

How would I go about doing that? Is this recommendation specifically because of the LAV incident, or just general advice? And what difference in particular would it make?

When I started using BDRB I also used LAV. While I find LAV perfectly for playback I had issues with glitches in VC1 encoded material which ended in out-of-sync encodings. And I used the recommended version.

The reason this specific version 0.65 is recommended might be because no-one (mainly jdobbs) has the time to test all versions in all usecases.

I "recommended/advised" DGDec for its flawless frame-serving in all my encodings so far and speed boost.
Plus you do not have to check your system every now and then after an installation that may interfere with DirectShow. And that can be a lot...like in your case.

And like jdobbs: That was also the reason for me buying a Nvidia card for a few Euros...nothing spectacular...just a passive GT730

ggtop

[DrinkLyeAndDie]

Personally, I would use the Zoom Player Install Center and remove MadVR and LAV Filters just to be on the safe side. I see no reason to uninstall Zoom Player. Then manually install the standalone installers for MadVR and LAV Filters. You can decide which version to use on your own. YMMV. Personally, I haven't had any issues with LAV Filters 0.69.0 and BD-RB doesn't say anything negative... other than my working drive is running low on space. Need to get around to fixing that.

[06-13-17] Checking System Settings
- BD-Rebuilder v0.50.23
- Windows Version: 6.2 [9200]
- Working Path Free Space: 21.94GB
- AVISYNTH Version: 2.6.0.6, Ok
- LAVFILTERS: Ok
- AnyDVD settings check: Ok.
- X264: Ok
- AFTEN: Ok
- FAAC: Ok
- MP4BOX: Ok
- WAVI: Ok
- TSMUXER: Ok
- FRIMEncode: Ok
- FRIMDecode: Ok
[06-13-17] Systems Settings Check complete


NOTE: I make use of DGDecNV, as well. Absolutely love DGDecNV.

[hbenthow]

When I started using BDRB I also used LAV. While I find LAV perfectly for playback I had issues with glitches in VC1 encoded material which ended in out-of-sync encodings. And I used the recommended version.

The reason this specific version 0.65 is recommended might be because no-one (mainly jdobbs) has the time to test all versions in all usecases.

I "recommended/advised" DGDec for its flawless frame-serving in all my encodings so far and speed boost.
Plus you do not have to check your system every now and then after an instalaltion that may interfere with DirectShow. And that can be a lot...like in your case.

I don't know whether DGDecNV (which apparently isn't freeware) or DGDecIM (which appears not to have been updated for three years) are very trustworthy at this point, and I'm not sure that I could master the complexities of using them (I don't even see an option to use them in BD Rebuilder). And then there's the possibility that they might encode with less-than-optimal picture quality (even if there's less chance of sync issues).

And my computer has an integrated graphics card (AMD Radeon HD 7480D) and what I've read of DGDecNV or DGDecIM seems to imply that they need a special type of video card.

Personally, I would use the Zoom Player Install Center and remove MadVR and LAV Filters just to be on the safe side. I see no reason to uninstall Zoom Player. Then manually install the standalone installers for MadVR and LAV Filters. You can decide which version to use on your own.

Does BD Rebuilder need MadVR? Part of the problem with these installed codecs is that other than LAV, I don't know whether I had any of the others installed (or need them) before Zoom Player installed its new versions. The only way to find out exactly what I had before is to revert to the last system image backup that i made before installing Zoom Player

Also, Zoom Player installed various other codecs (DirectVobSub, DCoder Image Source, Bass Audio Decoder, and 3DYD Youtube Source), none of which I trust not to mess with BD Rebuilder or some other program in some way or another, so I'm rather pessimistic about the possibility of getting my system back to normal without reverting to my last system image (and thus eliminating Zoom Player as well).

I'm not sure whether Zoom Player is any good or not. It looks like it might be better for me just to do without it and use VLC.

[videoh]

I don't know whether DGDecNV (which apparently isn't freeware) or DGDecIM (which appears not to have been updated for three years) are very trustworthy at this point, and I'm not sure that I could master the complexities of using them (I don't even see an option to use them in BD Rebuilder). And then there's the possibility that they might encode with less-than-optimal picture quality (even if there's less chance of sync issues). LOL. First, you are wrong about when DGDecIM was last updated. The last update was March 18, 2017. Second, they are both highly trustworthy, as you been told in this thread. If you bothered to do even a small amount of research about it, you would find all the reassurance you could possibly need. And the fact that the author of BDRB specifically purchased an nVidia card to be able to use DGDecNV should give you another clue. Third, your talk about less-than-optimal picture quality is nonsense. It's a decoder. It's a binary matter whether it decodes correctly or not. Finally, regarding complexity, it is no worse that BDRB or any other similar application. There are many thousands of normal users that use it productively. And once you enable it in BDRB (yes, it is quite simple if you'd only ask), it's transparent to you.

And my computer has an integrated graphics card (AMD Radeon HD 7480D) and what I've read of DGDecNV or DGDecIM seems to imply that they need a special type of video card. OK, then you can't run DGDecNV (though you may be able to run DGDecIM depending on your processor). But there's no excuse for the ignorant FUD you just spewed.

I'm rather pessimistic about the possibility of getting my system back to normal without reverting to my last system image (and thus eliminating Zoom Player as well). So revert it. You have had several experts advise you but won't try following their advice. So do whatever you have to do and get over it. Just in case you didn't think of it, you can try the offered advice and if it doesn't work out, then you can revert. That may allow you to retain your beloved Zoom Player.

Time for me to walk away from this thread, just as jdobbs did from one of your other threads. ;)

[ggtop]

I don't know whether DGDecNV (which apparently isn't freeware) or DGDecIM (which appears not to have been updated for three years) are very trustworthy at this point, and I'm not sure that I could master the complexities of using them (I don't even see an option to use them in BD Rebuilder). And then there's the possibility that they might encode with less-than-optimal picture quality (even if there's less chance of sync issues).

And my computer has an integrated graphics card (AMD Radeon HD 7480D) and what I've read of DGDecNV or DGDecIM seems to imply that they need a special type of video card.

DGDecNV uses NVidia while DGDecIM works on Intel Chips (incl. SW Decoding)

DGDecNV frameserver can easily activated through settings menu while DecIM has to be activated through ini file. In case you need it:
BDREBUILDER.ini
DGDECIM=1
DGDECIM_SW_DECODE=n n = 0/1 - 1=(Default) use software decoding; if set to 0 automatic detection is enabled
[Paths]
DGIndexIM=(path to DGIndexIM.exe)
DGDecIM=(path to DGDecodeIM.dll)


It's true you need specific hardware and have to buy a licence. So far it is worth every penny for me.

If the output wasn't perfect I wouldn't use it and I guess it's the same for all others using it.

But I don't want to say you have to use it. It's your decision of course. There is no best or worst. It all depends on your personal needs.

Regarding your player software I cannot help. I just use MPC (LAV is integrated as internal filters) with MadVR.

ggtop

[clsid]

Why don't you just test if the resulting file has any sync issues? LAV Filters are very reliable, so the 'problem' is most likely just hypothetical.

[manolito]

You could very well be correct, but jdobbs rightly recommends certain versions that he has tested and can certify to work correctly with his application. I suppose he is always evaluating possible tool upgrades and if users are requesting an update he would respond when possible.

Unfortunately not... :p

jdobbs only updates the required versions of the additional tools after some PITA users like me nag him to do so - like here:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1728448#post1728448


Cheers
manolito

[hbenthow]

So revert it. You have had several experts advise you but won't try following their advice. So do whatever you have to do and get over it. Just in case you didn't think of it, you can try the offered advice and if it doesn't work out, then you can revert. That may allow you to retain your beloved Zoom Player.

I'd hardly call Zoom Player "beloved" at this point. I have yet to even try it out and find out whether I like it.

Time for me to walk away from this thread, just as jdobbs did from one of your other threads. ;)

I can't blame you. I'm extremely paranoid when it comes to all things digital, due to a combination of obsessive-compulsive disorder and previous experiences with serious computer problems (in a nutshell, two computers in the past year had serious problems due to problems that have never been identified despite myriad tests, so the slightest hint of a problem with my current computer sends my stress levels through the roof and typically causes me to scurry for the most "nuclear" option to make sure the threat is gone). The results can unfortunately be extremely frustrating for anyone attempting to advise me on such matters.

Regarding my mistake about when DGDecIM was last updated, that was due to my finding a web page that I assumed was from the codec's creator which claimed to feature the newest version but which hadn't been updated since 2014.


It's true you need specific hardware and have to buy a licence. So far it is worth every penny for me.

If the output wasn't perfect I wouldn't use it and I guess it's the same for all others using it.

But I don't want to say you have to use it. It's your decision of course. There is no best or worst. It all depends on your personal needs.

I see. I think that I'll stick with DirectShow for the time being, as it has worked well for me so far.

Regarding your player software I cannot help. I just use MPC with MadVR.

I also have MPC-HC, although I don't remember whether it installed MadVR.

Is there any chance that MadVR, DirectVobSub, DCoder Image Source, Bass Audio Decoder, or 3DYD Youtube Source could interfere with BD Rebuilder in any way? I'm not familiar enough with any of these codecs to know.

If not, I suppose that I could try uninstalling LAV Filters through the Zoom Player Install Center, then manually reinstalling it.

Are there any other of the codecs that you would recommend either uninstalling or reinstalling?

[videoh]

OK, you may be sincere so I won't walk away (yet).

Do you have any indication at all that BDRB is not working correctly after you installed Zoom Player, other than jdobbs' CYA statement? It's quite possible and indeed likely that ggtop, manolito, clsid, and others here (all of them are experts) are correct that the latest LAV won't cause any issues at all. Can't you just run a few backups and see, just as clsid suggested?

Nobody is going to give you any guarantees about what Zoom Player may or may not have screwed up. If you are paranoid then revert. Why waste the time of experts and this forum's bandwidth with paranoid speculations, when you could so easily answer your own questions? Enjoying the attention?

BTW, DGDecIM is not a codec. Just out of curiosity, what web site was it? Weren't looking for cracks, were you? If you are too poor for the donation I'll be happy to give you a free license, though since you're happy with DSS, why bother, right?

[videoh]

Unfortunately not... :p

jdobbs only updates the required versions of the additional tools after some PITA users like me nag him to do so - like here:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1728448#post1728448
Well, he did update to LAV 0.65 as requested, didn't he? Maybe it's just that you would like to see things happen faster, while jdobbs is more conservative and cautious so as not to introduce possible issues to an application that is tightly coupled to a lot of third-party tools. If it were me, I would err on the side of caution too. Maybe polite and respectful requests would work better than shaming.

[hbenthow]

Do you have any indication at all that BDRB is not working correctly after you installed Zoom Player, other than jdobbs' CYA statement? It's quite possible and indeed likely that manolito, clsid, and others here (all of them are experts) are correct that the latest LAV won't cause any issues at all. Can't you just run a few backups and see, just as clsid suggested?

I haven't opened BD Rebuilder since the incident, as I thought that it might sense the changes, make adjustments because of them, and thus make it more difficult to later go back to the recommended version of LAV.

Nobody is going to give you any guarantees about what Zoom Player may or may not have screwed up. If you are paranoid then revert. Why waste the time of experts and this forum's bandwidth with paranoid speculations, when you could so easily answer your own questions? Enjoying the attention?

I just hoped that someone knew for sure whether each codec generally runs a risk of messing up BD Rebuilder or some commonly-used software.

BTW, DGDecIM is not a codec. Just out of curiosity, what web site was it? Weren't looking for cracks, were you?

I had simply googled DGDecIM (just the name by itself) in order to find more information about it and found this page (the OP of which was last edited in 2014):

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=170237

As most of the other Google results appeared to be from amateur blogs, the Avisynth Wiki page, etc, I assumed that the program itself was only available on that page, and that the version linked to in the OP must be the latest.

By the way, before I received your last reply (the one which I am currently responding to), I had gone ahead and used the Zoom Player Install Center to uninstall LAV in order to prepare to manually reinstall jdobbs' recommended version (0.65). Should I now go ahead with the reinstallation of LAV Filters 0.65?

If you are too poor for the donation I'll be happy to give you a free license, though since you're happy with DSS, why bother, right?

I am in general happy with DirectShow. I've only had problems with it about three times (EDIT: actually I don't know if DirectShow had anything to do with the problems, I can only narrow them down so far as BD Rebuilder itself - "problems while using it" would have been a better phrase to use than "problems with it"), and I think that those were due to problems with how the source files themselves were encoded (and I found work-arounds for all but one of them anyhow).

My main concern right now is with getting my system "back to normal" as far as BD Rebuilder is concerned (rather than trying anything new). Afterward, I would have all the time in the world to choose to change codecs, frameservers, etc, at my leisure if I so wished.

As for DGDecIM, please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the quote below mean that it only runs on Intel processors?

DGDecNV uses NVidia while DGDecIM works on Intel Chips (incl. SW Decoding)

If it can run on AMD graphics, could you please show me a link to a resource where I can read more information about it?

[DrinkLyeAndDie]

Does BD Rebuilder need MadVR? Part of the problem with these installed codecs is that other than LAV, I don't know whether I had any of the others installed (or need them) before Zoom Player installed its new versions. The only way to find out exactly what I had before is to revert to the last system image backup that i made before installing Zoom Player

BD-RB does not use MadVR at all, AFAIK. But, Zoom Player can make use of MadVR and LAV Filters as does other software. So I have both installed.

Also, Zoom Player installed various other codecs (DirectVobSub, DCoder Image Source, Bass Audio Decoder, and 3DYD Youtube Source), none of which I trust not to mess with BD Rebuilder or some other program in some way or another, so I'm rather pessimistic about the possibility of getting my system back to normal without reverting to my last system image (and thus eliminating Zoom Player as well).

Looking at Install Center on my system I have LAV Filters, MadVR, DirectVobSub, 7-zip Archive Extractor, FFDShow, and Haali's Media Splitter installed. None of them were installed by Zoom Player and the rest are not installed at all on my system.

Note: Minus LAV Filters the FFDShow and Haali Media Splitter are the versions linked to from the first post in the BD-RB Bug Report thread. MadVR was manually installed as was 7-zip. Have no recollection of where DirectVobSub came in.

I'm not sure whether Zoom Player is any good or not. It looks like it might be better for me just to do without it and use VLC.

Zoom Player has pluses and minuses. I've used it on and off for years as I have with VLC. It's really up to the individual user to decide which is better for them and their needs.

[hbenthow]

BD-RB does not use MadVR at all, AFAIK. But, Zoom Player can MadVR and LAV Filters as does other software. So I have both installed.

I think I'll leave MadVR and the other non-LAV programs and codecs installed by Zoom Player alone, then. If BD Rebuilder doesn't access them, it shouldn't harm anything.

I'll install LAV Filters 0.65, then open BD Rebuilder as an administrator. That will hopefully be enough to avoid any future problems with BD Rebuilder.

[videoh]

...could you please show me a link to a resource where I can read more information about it? Only at an amateur blog.

Anyway, it's obvious you're a troll because no-one could be so clueless. Congratulations, you got me.

[hbenthow]

I have now reinstalled LAV Filters and opened BD Rebuilder as an administrator (which seemingly caused it to apply the proper settings).

Anyway, it's obvious you're a troll because no-one could be so clueless. Congratulations, you got me.

I'm not a troll.

I just try to find out about as many details about the computer issues that I face as possible, in case one of the questions turns out to have an answer that involves real consequences.

One quote has been my motto when asking computer-related questions for some time now is one that a user on Ten Forums uses as his signature: "There are no dumb questions, just the people who do not ask them." (Its meaning is that there's no question too dumb to ask, as it would be dumber to avoid asking a potentially important question because it seems like a dumb one at the time). I've taken that message to heart ever since I read it, largely because there have been times when asking a question that seemed like a dumb one that didn't need asking at the time would have saved me trouble that not asking it wound up causing me to endure. I take the saying "It's better to be safe than sorry" to extremes at times, but it's partially because experience has told me that it's better to be too cautious than not cautious enough (not that either is without its negatives).

In any case, I hope that the course of action which I have taken avoids any future issues. Thank you for your help, and I'm sorry for any aggravation that I've caused you.

[Sharc]

Well, he did update to LAV 0.65 as requested, didn't he? Maybe it's just that you would like to see things happen faster, while jdobbs is more conservative and cautious so as not to introduce possible issues to an application that is tightly coupled to a lot of third-party tools. If it were me, I would err on the side of caution too. Maybe polite and respectful requests would work better than shaming.
But there is always hope that people who request something are just too shy or too modest to add the sentence "Donation is on the way ...." ;)