How to handle PAL Babylon 5 ? (SOLVED)

[StainlessS]

I'm aware that Babylon 5 NTSC is a bit of a pig, but I've got 5 seasons of it in PAL and am wondering is it quite as bad as in NTSC land ?

Any observations on this (I have not really looked at it, I have been too scared) would be appreciated, truth is, I only liked the shadow wars, rest was rubbish).

Question, how to handle ? (Anybody in PAL land already done it ?)

[ChiDragon]

Really man, is that the most descriptive thread title you could come up with? "How to handle ?"

I have never watched this. I have compared other '90s/'00s shows shot on film and edited on NTSC video with their PAL-converted counterparts. The PAL version always had a slight vertical blur added. All footage that was 60i in the source was blend-converted down to 48i (then sped-up to 50i). Not sure about 30p footage.

The standards conversion used for the shows I'm talking about matches the description of "DEFT (Digital Electronic Film Transfer) (http://www.purpleville.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/rtwebsite/tvm.htm)", which was the best technology available to do this.

DEFT: The trade name for a family of video format conversion devices produced by Snell & Wilcox. The first DEFT device was introduced in 1989 and was recognized with an Emmy award in 1994. The original DEFT corrected 3:2 pulldown errors normally introduced when material shot on film is converted between NTSC and PAL video formats. DEFT+ adds 24p output from standard interlaced video and allows the seamless integration of SD and HD materials in the same program. [An acronym of Digital Electronic Film Transfer.] (https://books.google.ca/books?id=HjmNAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA200&lpg=PA200&dq=snell+wilcox+deft&source=bl&ots=QQGzoPwqkZ&sig=MiMf8wsLTxP8OiMdVye0MQqjMdE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwin2-aV95TMAhUE5WMKHV0vBWoQ6AEIOTAG#v=onepage&q=snell%20wilcox%20deft&f=false) (That sentence about 3:2 pulldown errors is so over-simplified that it's almost completely wrong.)

Snell & Wilcox described their process in a patent (https://www.google.com/patents/US5255091) filed around 1989.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=543996&highlight=digital+electronic+film+transfer#post543996
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=881845&highlight=digital+electronic+film+transfer#post881845
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1018307&highlight=DEFT#post1018307
etc.

[StainlessS]

Really man,

Yes you are correct, sorry. Have Renamed title a bit.

Thank you, that lot of conclusive links pretty much makes this post, Solved Status, and gives me as much as I could have hoped
for, esp the Scharfis / Didee contributions. I have much to think about.

Again thanks. :thanks:

[Katie Boundary]

The only way to properly "handle" Bablyon 5 footage is to somehow acquire the NTSC versions. Converting 30p content to PAL destroys the original rendered frames :(

[StainlessS]

acquire the NTSC versions

Thank You Katie, but that aint gonna happen. :) (I only just recently acquired them)

[Katie Boundary]

Thank You Katie, but that aint gonna happen. :) (I only just recently acquired them)

If you have a Dropbox or some other way to transfer extremely large files over the Internet, I could help you... acquire... the episodes in their proper format...

[StainlessS]

Oooh you are a naughty lil girl but I like you :) (but no thanks )

[Katie Boundary]

If you're hitting on me, you should know that I only date girls.

[StainlessS]

Me Too :D

(And I was only mis-quoting Dick Emery,
should have been "Ooh you are awful, but I like you".)

[burfadel]

See, you have things in common. That's a good start... oh wait!

[Katie Boundary]

According to one of my "associates", the original US DVD releases of Babylon 5 were actually back-converted from the PAL versions because the NTSC masters couldn't be found at the time.

Like, ewwwwwwwww.

[StainlessS]

OK, I finally gotten around to starting on the Babylon 5 PAL set of 5 seasons, just thought I'de post bare bones script that I am going to use
(Much bigger script than this bare bones one that takes care of combing).


# AVS auto created via DGIndex template
VideoFileName ="D:\BABYLON5-S01E01\VIDEO_TS\BAB01.d2v"
AudioFileName ="D:\BABYLON5-S01E01\VIDEO_TS\BAB01 T80 3_2ch 384Kbps DELAY 0ms.ac3"
AudioDelay =Value("0.000")
MPEG2Source(VideoFileName,UpConv=1) # YUY2
Audio=NICAC3Source(AudioFileName,channels=2,DRC=0)
AudioDub(Audio).DelayAudio(AudioDelay)
ResampleAudio(44100)
Trim(0,0)

AssumeTFF
UNLACED=NNedi3(Field=-2, nns=2)

EVEN=False
SHOW=False
COMBEDTHRESH=20

UNLACED=(EVEN)?UNLACED.SelectEven:UNLACED.SelectOdd
UNLACED=(SHOW)?UNLACED.Subtitle("COMBED",align=5,size=48):UNLACED
SSS=RT_String("IsCombed(%d)",COMBEDTHRESH)

ORG=Last

ConditionalFilter(Last,UNLACED,Last,SSS,"=","true")

(SHOW)?StackVertical(ORG,Last):NOP

Return Last


Seems to cope with it pretty well. (Already done Twin Peaks Season 1, PAL, got rid of all combing very well).
EDIT: We used ODD fields (EVEN=False) for Twin Peaks, as even ones were a bit dodgy/blurry.
Twin Peaks was a bit odd, in that there were sequences of maybe 10 seconds of combing where rest of scene
had none, no apparent reason for the combed sections.

I should have used something like above for Pulp Fiction, that one is real weird
(PAL version got well screwed up, I guess Quentin was furious with results).

[StainlessS]

Heads up for anybody doing DVD PAL Bab5, swaps from Interlaced encoding to Progressive at Season 2, Disk 3, Episode 31 (first episode on disk).
Still has combing in CGI scenes despite Progressive encode, suggest UpConv=1 in MPeg2Source to up convert all to YUY2
(for entire set of 5 seasons).

Having a helluva time with this lot, having to do Dynamic Border cropping to removing varying sized borders (using DBSC),
as well as decombing beforehand. Gonna take weeks to do em all :(
EDIT: Even with a fully automated decomb/dynamic crop, script. And secondary Denoise/encode script (is quite grainy too).

EDIT: Episode 32 switches back to Interlaced encode, take care !

[burfadel]

Most shows are filmed in 24, slowed to 23.976, then telecined to 29.97. If doing encoding properly where the telecined is reversed, the framerate should be 23.976. For PAL, this is then sped up to 25 fps, but you have a higher vertical resolution. I believe for Babylon 5 they did the special effects in native 29.97 or something, meaning that for modern digital encodes it never looks right. I guess if they thought it was worth it they'd redo the special effects like they did with Star Trek TNG, and seeing as it was filmed in 16:9 originally they wouldn't have to worry about what was meant to be offscreen stuff. This is why with TNG they couldn't do it in 16:9. They had the 16:9 originals but there was stuff in the shot outside of the 4:3 window. Stargate SG-1 was another 90's show that was filmed natively in 16:9, despite TV's typically being 4:3 at the time.

It's not a bad show, but it was a little annoying in parts :), and one epside basically ruined the whole purpose of the series from then on. For 90's scifi, Stargate SG-1, Farscape, and Space:Above and Beyond are all good choices.

[StainlessS]

My fav was undoubtedly Lexx, what a wonderfully strange mix of Canadian and German humour (whoever would have guessed anybody ever
saying anything +ve about German humour :) ).
I think the US version was cut significantly for their more delicate disposition, twas not really a comedy, just strange situations
that induced a lot of head scratching. Dont think Lexx was terribly popular in the UK, was I think cancelled twice mid run, and for no apparent reason.
I also liked Voyager, but only after Seven of Nine came into view, along with some foam rubber support equipment.

[wonkey_monkey]

This is why with TNG they couldn't do it in 16:9.

From what I've read they wouldn't have done it with TNG even if they could. They've presented it as it was shot and intended to be seen.

This didn't stop them with the DVDs of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, though, which Joss Whedon is probably still annoyed about.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Not 90's but it's Firefly for me. Which thankfully looks pretty good on Blu-ray ;)

[ilovejedd]

This didn't stop them with the DVDs of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, though, which Joss Whedon is probably still annoyed about.
I'm thinking he's probably more annoyed by the recent "HD remaster". Interesting, didn't know the Buffy DVDs were ever released in 16:9. I've got the US release and all the seasons are in 4:3.

Ugh, need to brush up on my AviSynth in order to convert my DVD rips to mobile-friendly format. On-the-fly transcoding of MPEG-2 to H.264 with Plex for streaming to smartphones and tablets is pretty ugly. Handbrake's not doing well either.

[Groucho2004]

whoever would have guessed anybody ever saying anything +ve about German humour :)It exists but only Germans understand it. :p

[StainlessS]

Just out of interest, I googled "german sense of humour", and got this lot:- https://www.google.com/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=tAFqVuTzKdLS8AfknKK4BQ&gws_rd=ssl,cr&fg=1#q=german+sense+of+humour

seems much of it is just lost in translation, and once explained, is no longer amusing.

I recently finally got a BBC series DVD set of 'Private Schulz':- https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Private+Schulz&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=0LDFV_nEKYOL6ATO8aLQCw

from 1981, actually English series (Michael Elphick, Ian Richardson, Billie Whitelaw) but situated in (mostly) Germany WWII, I had originally seen it when 1st shown, but
missed the very last episode, I now finally got closure :)
Cex, 2nd user IT, DVD, type stuff has some in stock, I had to travel a few miles to get my copy, here:- https://uk.webuy.com/search/index.php?stext=private+schultz&section=
[EDIT: they have it on-line too] although you have to spell it wrong to find it (Schultz instead of Schulz). You can click on above link graphic and enter postcode to find nearest branch where in stock.


Here first part of 2 part (DGIndex template) script used for Bab5 (I'm up to ~ ep 92 of 110)


Function Bab_1(clip c,string VideoFileName,int "CombTh",Bool "Even",Bool "Show") {
c # Input is YUY2
myName="BabUnC: "
CombTh=Default(CombTh,20)
Even=Default(Even,True)
Show=Default(Show,False)
RootName = RT_GetFullPathName(RT_FilenameSplit(VideoFileName,4))
Fn = RootName+"_Clop.txt"
RT_DebugF("RootName=%s",RootName,name=myName)
RT_DebugF("Fn=%s",Fn,name=myName)
RT_DebugF("Scanning for Combing",name=myName)
qCombed(Last,FileName=FN,CombTh,Range=True)
RT_DebugF("Nnedi3",name=myName)
NED=NNedi3(Field=-2, nns=2) # Field -2 = double rate, internal parity value to start
YAD=YadifMod(Order=-1,Mode=1,edeint=NED) # Order -1 = Internal Parity. Mode 1=double rate do spactial check (3=no spatial check).
MC =YAD.MCDegrainSharp(2) # MC on double rate
MC =(EVEN)?MC.SelectEven:MC.SelectOdd # Back to single rate
UNLACED=(SHOW)?MC.Subtitle("COMBED",align=5,size=48):MC
RT_DebugF("ClipClop",name=myName)
ClipClop(Last,UNLACED,Cmd=Fn).ConvertToYV12 # Fast access to non decombed frames EDIT: And only deinterlace combed frames
# RT_FileDelete(Fn)
Return Last
}


EDIT: I chose to keep Even fields (of deinterlaced frames) as some Odd fields in bab5 are blended fields where @ scene cut.

EDIT: Edited MCDegrainSharp(2), from 1 to 2.

[StainlessS]

Finished the whole lot, 110 eps. Unfortunately have decided to go back and redo the first 90 ( aarrh :eek: )or so episodes as I used
MCDegrainSharp(1), instead or the redo MCDegrainSharp(2) [as double rate, then select even to single rate].
Here we go again.