Worst DVD transfers ever (please sticky)

[Katie Boundary]

Hmmm, I wonder if hello has decided to post anything worth paying attention to yet.

(peeks under the Christmas tree)

On the eighth day of Christmas, hello gave to me...

A bunch of Matroska files? Seriously? What the hell am I supposed to do with THESE?

In other news, while I was searching for improved bob-deinterlace filters, I came across this webpage: www.100fps.com. The big news here is that I finally have a name for the "Interlacing from hell": "Color interlacing"! This doesn't make it any more solvable, but it's nice to know. The site, in combination with the native 48i content that I found in Alex Mack, also made me realize that I had completely neglected the possibility of a second type of PAL content: native 50i. I can't confirm that it actually exists, but who knows? Maybe it's what hello has been spending the past 3 pages trying to say, when 3 words would have sufficed. And if that's what's in these matroska files, then holy hell I must be setting off all kinds of troll alarms right now.

[huhn]

A bunch of Matroska files? Seriously? What the hell am I supposed to do with THESE?

play them?

In other news, while I was searching for improved bob-deinterlace filters, I came across this webpage: www.100fps.com. The big news here is that I finally have a name for the "Interlacing from hell": "Color interlacing"! This doesn't make it any more solvable, but it's nice to know.

try this...

http://avisynth.org.ru/yadif/yadif.html

but in the end which PC doesn't have a motion adaptive hardware deinterlancer with cadance/pulldown detection theses days?

The site, in combination with the native 48i content that I found in Alex Mack, also made me realize that I had completely neglected the possibility of a second type of PAL content: native 50i.

why shouldn't 50i with 50 different fields not exist?

there is all kind of stuff out there

[hello_hello]

Hmmm, I wonder if hello has decided to post anything worth paying attention to yet.

(peeks under the Christmas tree)

On the eighth day of Christmas, hello gave to me...

A bunch of Matroska files? Seriously? What the hell am I supposed to do with THESE?

Seriously, that's going to be your excuse for ignoring them? You're really going with that? Not enough knowledge to play an MKV? And you're going with that in a forum dedicated to video?? Awesome Katie. I didn't see that coming.

The site, in combination with the native 48i content that I found in Alex Mack, also made me realize that I had completely neglected the possibility of a second type of PAL content: native 50i. I can't confirm that it actually exists, but who knows? Maybe it's what hello has been spending the past 3 pages trying to say, when 3 words would have sufficed. And if that's what's in these matroska files, then holy hell I must be setting off all kinds of troll alarms right now.

Katie can't confirm 50i actually exists? Okay. I guess confused Katie is preparing to apply her particular flavour of NTSC logic to PAL.

Maybe it's what hello has been spending the past 3 pages trying to say, when 3 words would have sufficed. And if that's what's in these matroska files, then holy hell I must be setting off all kinds of troll alarms right now.

You can set off either the troll alarm or the stupid alarm Katie, if that's what you're asking. Which one are you aiming for?

[Ghitulescu]

You're really going with that? Not enough knowledge to play an MKV?

No kidding? Such short-sight!... How did you dare send her MKVs instead of VCDs? :) :) :)

[wonkey_monkey]

But you do keep recommending it - originally five, now four times in the OP.
If you believe that, then your definition of "recommend" is different from the one that the rest of the English-speaking world uses.

What? You literally recommended using separatefields() several times. I don't know how else to explain your own words to you.

rec·om·mend
verb
1. put forward (someone or something) with approval as being suitable for a particular purpose or role.

This is exactly what your post does.

There's clearly no arguing with you because you simply ignore even the plain evidence of your own words.

And it is the worst possible way to fix the things you're trying to fix.
Wrong. Blending is worse.


I thought blending was one of the problems you were trying to fix.

But fine, if you're really going to insist on absolute pedantry, separatefields() is one of the worst ways to fix the problems you're describing.

I have not made any personal attack. I have attacked your statements.
"You don't know what you're doing" is a personal attack, not an attack on my statements.

No, it's a statement of fact. You don't know what you're doing. The evidence is in the words of your own recommendations.

I'd be extremely interested in a bob-deinterlacer that did both vertical and temporal interpolation to solve this problem, even if it resulted in slight combing at scene changes.

If you knew anything about the subject, you'd know that several such filters exist.

I went from the second-least bad to the least bad.

No, you didn't. How would you know? Before I told you about bob() - which you admit you'd never taken the time to understand before - you "knew" that separatefields was the "least bad." Now you "know" that bob is the "least bad." There are many more filters you obviously don't know about which are much better than bob(), as I've already told you.

Of course, if there's an objectively better filter for this purpose than bob()

Again, I've already told you there are many.

then you could have shut down this entire line of discussion days ago with a single link.

DGBob (http://avisynth.org.ru/docs/english/externalfilters/dgbob.htm)
nnedi (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=129953)
yadif (http://avisynth.org.ru/yadif/yadif.html)
tdeint (http://avisynth.org.ru/docs/english/externalfilters/tdeint.htm)
tempgaussmc (http://avisynth.nl/index.php/TempGaussMC)
QTGMC (http://avisynth.nl/index.php/QTGMC)

And these are just the ones I thought of off the top of my head. I even wrote an implementation of one myself: w3fdif (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1734089#post1734089).

See? All you had to do was ask instead of assuming you already knew all the answers.

I had completely neglected the possibility of a second type of PAL content: native 50i. I can't confirm that it actually exists, but who knows?

Who knows? Who knows? Once again you demonstrate you ignorance and, more damningly, your close-mindedness. If you're not sure if it actually exists, why don't you ask someone? Your "who knows" makes it sound like you've decided the question is unanswerable, but you didn't even bother to ask.

The answer to your question "who knows?" is: hundreds of members of this forum.

It exists. It's commonplace. It's still in widespread use. Same as 60i.

[hello_hello]

It exists. It's commonplace. It's still in widespread use. Same as 60i.

Now hang on just a minute. If we've learned nothing from this thread we should know by now nothing exists until Katie says it does and it's only commonplace and in widespread use if she declares it to be. Please try to remember that.

"A second type of PAL". If I let go of my head it will shake so hard it'll come off. I'm sure of it.
Hopefully the second type of PAL won't be like PAL DVDs containing movies, because the recommended method of dealing with those is getting expensive. There's the cost of buying the NTSC version, shipping fees, the time it takes to track them down, and if the NTSC version is hard telecined and fails the Uncomb() diagnostic I've got to send it back and look for another copy.... it's quite a process.... so I'm really hoping this new 50i format will be easier to deal with.

[Stereodude]

C'mon guys... you're only encouraging him/her. Stop responding and the problem will self correct.

[Katie Boundary]

David Horman is now on Ignore for repeating claims that I have already debunked, for making up his own definition of "recommend" (the real definition of which can be found here (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/recommend?s=t)), for failure to stay on topic, and for general failure to understand basic English.

play them?

:rolleyes:

And that's supposed to tell me what, except that they're interlaced? If I'm to do a diagnosis, I need something that I can load into Virtualdub.

try this...

http://avisynth.org.ru/yadif/yadif.html

Yes, that's the next toy that I plan on playing with. I'm a bit suspicious about this "edge-directed" business, though. The "smarter" we try to make software, the worse it screws up when it encounters something that its designers hadn't anticipated.

but in the end which PC doesn't have a motion adaptive hardware deinterlancer with cadance/pulldown detection theses days?

I don't know but Babylon 5 looks like ass on every computer I've played it on.

why shouldn't 50i with 50 different fields not exist?

Natively interlaced content in general should not exist. Are you asking me why I shouldn't expect some idiots out there to have created it anyway? That's a good question. Maybe I just expected Europeans to be smarter than Americans about something other than the obvious superiority of the metric system.

[Groucho2004]

David Horman is now on IgnoreYou need an "allow" instead of an "ignore" list. Much easier in your case.

[Katie Boundary]

Hey I found some examples of that 50i content that you were talking about.

Thank you. Would you care to name them so I can add them to the list?

[Groucho2004]

thank you. Would you care to name them so i can add them to the list?
42

...

[Katie Boundary]

42

...

Not sure if name of TV show that's popular in PAL countries, or Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference...

http://www.socialmemegenerator.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/not-sure-if-fry-meme.jpg

[hello_hello]

David Horman is now on Ignore for repeating claims that I have already debunked, for making up his own definition of "recommend" (the real definition of which can be found here (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/recommend?s=t)), for failure to stay on topic, and for general failure to understand basic English.

She's obviously not playing with a full deck. Realistically, at best she's only holding on to half dozen or so cards from the deck, and her grip on those seems pretty tenuous now.


And that's supposed to tell me what, except that they're interlaced? If I'm to do a diagnosis, I need something that I can load into Virtualdub.

Is Katie claiming she can't create a simple Avisynth script to open an MKV in Virtualdub?
The VirtualDub ffmpeg input plugin something that's just happened for other people?

Here's the name of the MKVs in the zip file I uploaded in response to Katie's put up or shut up demand for samples. Decide for yourself if Katie knows full well they're comparisons of de-interlacing methods. Decide for yourself how smart she must be if she didn't.

Katie knows best version 1 - separatefields.mkv
Katie knows best version 2 - bob.mkv
Even FieldDeinterlace() is smarter than Katie.mkv
Having a clue.mkv
Original.mkv

Yes, that's the next toy that I plan on playing with. I'm a bit suspicious about this "edge-directed" business, though. The "smarter" we try to make software, the worse it screws up when it encounters something that its designers hadn't anticipated.

Katie discovers Yadif! Priceless!

Natively interlaced content in general should not exist. Are you asking me why I shouldn't expect some idiots out there to have created it anyway? That's a good question. Maybe I just expected Europeans to be smarter than Americans about something other than the obvious superiority of the metric system.

Katie discovers PAL! Priceless!

[wonkey_monkey]

David Horman is now on Ignore

And yet you're still reading my posts.

for repeating claims that I have already debunked

Such as?

for making up his own definition of "recommend" (the real definition of which can be found here (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/recommend?s=t))

There is no single "real" definition. English doesn't work that way.

As for the definition you've found, it's practically synonymous with mine, which is hardly surprising since it's a common English word and I'm well aware of its meaning.

You represented as advisable, and presented as worthy of confidence, courses of action which have been demonstrated to be poor.

for failure to stay on topic

I have not once strayed from the topic, which is your recommendations (yes, recommendations, exactly as per "your" definition) made in ignorance of far better methods, several of which I and others have listed, and which you're apparently only now starting to play with.

Natively interlaced content in general should not exist.

What? Are you speaking technically or philosophically? Are you saying it's rare (which it isn't), or just that you wish it were?

Do you even understand why interlacing was invented? Do you think broadcast engineers from decades past invented it just to mess with you? When television first started, it was an absolute necessity.

Backwards compatability - and the fact that it gave a 50% saving for a less-than-50% reduction in perceived quality - kept it going, and eventually this lead to the development of hardware and software deinterlacers. In something of a chicken-and-egg situation, the existence of these deinterlacers meant that interlacing could continue to exist through the transition to digital broadcasting, where it still provides that healthy 50% bandwidth saving before further compression, and which, thanks to the aforementioned and ubiquitous hardware deinterlacers, causes even less of a perceived reduction in quality than it did on CRT screens.

Regardless if you actually do believe it's rare, or just think it should be, interlacing is ubiquitous on broadcast TV, and will be for some time. The increase in purely digital and non-broadcast services will probably put an end to it in years (many) to come - BBC iPlayer, for example, just introduced 720p50 streams and probably won't bother with 1080i50, but their HD broadcasts will continue to be 1080i50 (and purely so, by the way) for some time.

[huhn]

:rolleyes:

And that's supposed to tell me what, except that they're interlaced? If I'm to do a diagnosis, I need something that I can load into Virtualdub.[quote]

than do that?

[quote]Natively interlaced content in general should not exist. Are you asking me why I shouldn't expect some idiots out there to have created it anyway? That's a good question. Maybe I just expected Europeans to be smarter than Americans about something other than the obvious superiority of the metric system.

no that is simply how you get 50 different frames in 50i it is used all the time for sports.

and never forget deinterlancing wasn't needed in the past...

[Katie Boundary]

no that is simply how you get 50 different frames in 50i it is used all the time for sports.

What are these "sports" of which you speak?

EDIT: digging through some of my older threads for a post that someone else made, I came across this thing that I said:

I mostly use resizers to correct the aspect ratios of anamorphic footage; to mix sources with different aspect ratios at a single intermediate aspect ratio (like warping 1.85:1 and 2.35:1 footage to 2.1:1 so they can be mixed); and to do crappy pseudo-IVTC with separatefields and selecteven.

That was posted over a year ago. That would have been the ideal time and thread to discuss less crappy ways of dealing with hard interlacing. Just FYI. Links can be provided to these old threads for anyone who wishes to continue discussing bob-deinterlacing.

[wonkey_monkey]

That was posted over a year ago. That would have been the ideal time and thread to discuss less crappy ways of dealing with hard interlacing.

So, what, now you're blaming everyone else for failing to pick up on that comment (where you openly admit that the pseudo-IVTC you were doing - and are still recommending over a year later - was "crappy") and to take it upon themselves to illuminate you, even though you seemingly gave no firm indication of being ignorant of better methods and didn't ask for any?

[mandarinka]

This has to be a troll thread.

Definitely.

[colours]

That would have been the ideal time and thread to discuss less crappy ways of dealing with hard interlacing.

Just to give a bit more context here, the thread in question (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1711616#post1711616) was about image resizing and you were the only one to bring up anything about IVTC.

Also, here are some ~quotes~ from another thread you started last year:

Try Telecide().Decimate() instead. […] If for whatever reason you must have perfect inverse telecine, YATTA is the tool of choice.
Ever tried TFM/TDecimate?

[hello_hello]

So, what, now you're blaming everyone else for failing to pick up on that comment (where you openly admit that the pseudo-IVTC you were doing - and are still recommending over a year later - was "crappy") and to take it upon themselves to illuminate you, even though you seemingly gave no firm indication of being ignorant of better methods and didn't ask for any?

I can see why Katie removed the link from her quote, although I noticed another example of failing to pick up on a comment for which I'm holding ChiDragon and colours equally accountable. ;)

.....and other scenes (like the exterior shots of the Enterprise) that were telecined by duplicating every fourth field rather than every fourth frame

Could this be the basis for the misconception leading to all this arguing, ignoring and refusing to listen we're witnessing today. I discussed field matching earlier in this thread but even so I still didn't consider that might be the problem.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but combined with several frame blending comments I hadn't given much thought till now....

Oh wow. I abandoned Decomb long ago in favor of separatefields/selecteven/resize specifically because I hated the idea that the filter would just go and blend frames without my permission....
Decomb has a funny habit of blending everything that it can't properly match, regardless of whether you want it to or not. Or at least, that was the case the last time I checked. It's been a while.

When does Decomb blend frames? I thought the blended frame comments must have referred to blend de-interlacing, but now I'm not sure.
I live in Pal-land so I could be looking at it the wrong way, but I can't ask these questions as I no longer have rational discussion privileges as a result of too many attempts at rational discussion, so if someone else would care to ask....

[hello_hello]

That was posted over a year ago. That would have been the ideal time and thread to discuss less crappy ways of dealing with hard interlacing. Just FYI. Links can be provided to these old threads for anyone who wishes to continue discussing bob-deinterlacing.

That's the problem. I must have missed the discussion cut-off date. Was it advertised?

"60i content"? Isn't that the definition of NTSC interlaced video? There's de-interlacers for that sort of thing, rather than throwing away half the fields.

[manono]

When does Decomb blend frames? I thought the blended frame comments must have referred to blend de-interlacing, but now I'm not sure.

I believe that once upon a time, when Telecide couldn't find a match the post processor would kick in and blend the interlaced frame. That's no longer true and the post processor will interpolate by default. In any event, a quick read of the Decomb Reference Manual will show anyone how to interpolate rather than blend.

Telecide(Blend=False)###or True

[mandarinka]

I'd suggest anyone who still thinks about posting in this thread to look at the post history of this Katie Boundary person, just check their post history, it is mostly threads that scream trolling with more or less thin veiling.

BTW, please read the forum rules that are linked in the page header, particularly 4) Be nice to each other...
Now read your posts #7, #12, #25, #27 and probably more in this thread.