CCE encodes blurry?

[baly]

Hi,

i am using Total code 6.4 & CCE SP3 1.3.0.3.
I am encoding the same clip with the same settings to both encoders.
The clip from CCE seems a bit blurry in comparison to the one from TC.

Got any ideas? Are there any settings to improve clearness in CCE?

Thanks!

[poisondeathray]

Did you disable the low pass filter ?

[baly]

Hi,
where can I find that?

[baly]

Got it, in the picture settings.
Is that all? I just deselect LPF?

Thanks!

[baly]

Not much of a difference...

[kolak]

Got it, in the picture settings.
Is that all? I just deselect LPF?

Thanks!

No. You have to save new picture setting and than apply it to the whole stream. Read manual.

[baly]

Hi Kolak,

yes I did that but to be honest it seems more blocky in comparison with the LPF.
Shall I deselect both the 'Non Linear Filters' too, below?
Also, my source file is progressive. Does it make any difference? Are these settings for Interlaced only or it does not matter?
Thanks.

PS: Since my picture is progressive I did ZigZag & Progressive and at the end I passed it through restreamer to set it Progressive again.

[Ghitulescu]

Any encodes balances a compromise between a lot of factors.

Any encoder will outcome a blurry result if the bitrate is low enough.
That you mentioned blocks, is a warning signal that your bitrate is too low. What you intend to do? To compress a bluray movie to a 400MB?

[baly]

Hi,
thanks for your reply.

My br settings are 6000 - 2000 - 9000.
I guess that's enough for a trailer.

My point here is that Total Code's output (with same br settings and everything else to default) is more clear in comparison to CCE's and I am not willing to believe that Total Code is better than CCE, so I guess I must be doing something wrong.
That is what I am trying to figure out.

[baly]

Also, what do you mostly use for segment?
Default (Natural1) or MPEG standard?

Shall I deselect NLF also?

Thanks!

[srfscenar]

Did you disable the low pass filter ?

Hi,
do you disable the Non Linear Filter too?
If so, it's as if you set the Natural1 preset.
Is that what you mean?

[kolak]

Hi Kolak,

yes I did that but to be honest it seems more blocky in comparison with the LPF.
Shall I deselect both the 'Non Linear Filters' too, below?
Also, my source file is progressive. Does it make any difference? Are these settings for Interlaced only or it does not matter?
Thanks.

PS: Since my picture is progressive I did ZigZag & Progressive and at the end I passed it through restreamer to set it Progressive again.

SP3 set all flags as per DVD spec, so if you do it for DVD authoring than don't change anything with Restremer as you end up with non-compliant streams.
For progressive sources (specially film based) SP3 is unbeatable.
For interlaced I prefer CarbonCoder results, but it's not strictly DVD compliant.
Not sure why you have problems. Save profile which disables all processing and than apply it to the whole stream. In some cases SP3 can look worse than some other encoders, which tend to soften whole picture. Play with Activity, Luma, Residue settings.

[baly]

Hi kolak,
quick question.
When you apply the picture setting (to the main screen) do you just set it to the first Timecode
or to the whole list (if I have chapter points)? I was setting it to the first only.

[kolak]

To the whole list and if you have many chapters this is annoying as you have to do it manually.

[baly]

Cool! Maybe that's where the problem is.
I will try it to the whole list and get back with results!
Thank you!

[baly]

Now that I set the 'Picture' settings to all the chapters,
in restream the 'Frametype Progressive' is NOT checked.
Will that be a problem? Shall I check that and the 'Progressive Sequence' also?

Thanks!

[kolak]

Set CCE to progressive frame type and than you should have frame type=progressive, but progressive sequence should not be set for DVD to 1! It will work, but DVD spec requires it to be set to 0, so don't try to fix it with Restream. As I said- SP3 is 100% complaint with DVD spec, no fix is ever needed! There is no other more DVD strict encoder on the planet, so don't try to correct it if you want DVD compliant files.

[srfscenar]

To the whole list and if you have many chapters this is annoying as you have to do it manually.

No need to manually set it to all chapters.
All you have to do is set it to the first and the rest will follow that.
I quote part of the CCE manual:
'For example,
if Animation 3: Normal is selected as a picture setting at the first
marker and no setting is specified at other markers, Animation 3:
Normal is applied for all frames.'

[kolak]

Not sure about it. Maybe it has changed in latest update. It definitely wasn't like that. It was using default one for chapters without any specific settings.

[srfscenar]

Well, what I meant (and the manual meant) is that you apply your setting to the first marker, i.e. frame 0)
and that will be applied to the rest unless you set a different setting to another marker.
That makes sense in case you need a different setting for a different part of your movie.
At least it works for me?
Maybe someone else can clear out our difference?! ;)

[manolito]

Set CCE to progressive frame type and than you should have frame type=progressive, but progressive sequence should not be set for DVD to 1! It will work, but DVD spec requires it to be set to 0, so don't try to fix it with Restream.

I don't believe you, can you please provide some proof for this statement?

From an older post:
mp3dom
25th December 2011, 21:18
Yes, if you set the progressive sequence it means that ALL the stream is indeed progressive so a progressive scan player doesn't ever need to deinterlace. If you mark only frametype progressive, it means that *that* frame is progressive but the sequence can potentially have a mixture of both progressive and interlaced contents.
Progressive sequence is in specs as long as frametype progressive is ON and TopField is OFF. I've made a lot of commercial dvds in that way and none of them have created any problem.


Cheers
manolito

[srfscenar]

I too agree. Apart Progressive Frametype CCE sets, you have to set it to Progressive Sequence in restreamer too.
If you don't, some players will try to play some parts as interlaced and the result is flickering.
At least, I always set it and it always passes QC reports.

[kolak]

No. I also thought that some time ago, but this is incorrect.

DVD spec does not support Progressive Sequence=1 as DVD spec was never made for the real progressive footage.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Pa7pAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA399&lpg=PA399&dq=ben+dvd+Progressive+Sequence&source=bl&ots=IdUGjpOGgq&sig=iRagPsT7ST7Reu_qkISD1H9myBo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAWoVChMI7IqB66rwyAIVCtoaCh3yKwWR#v=onepage&q=ben%20dvd%20Progressive%20Sequence&f=false

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4yXVZYMd-q4C&pg=PA291&lpg=PA291&dq=Progressive+Sequence+dvd+ben&source=bl&ots=KG32vA5oN7&sig=E8ZIiRjkoZgF8YZzyrB4SPI4Dnc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAmoVChMI6KfRy7DwyAIVjHEUCh3qqQ1k#v=onepage&q=Progressive%20Sequence%20dvd%20ben&f=false

As I said many times- SP3 encoder is all about strict DVD compliancy. It uses same header signalling as Toshiba encoder and Sony Vizaro.

Fact that some software/hardware players make video flickering has nothing to do with DVD spec. This is player issue and comes from fact that DVD spec was "made" for interlaced chains/TVs.

Which QC reports? Strict check with proper DVD video stream verifiers?

[manolito]

Still not convinced...

So far Mr. Waggoner seems to be the only person to make this statement (and he may be wrong). The original DVD specs are not public, and everybody else (like DVD Demystified and others plus several encoder manuals) seem to agree that the Progressive Sequence flag is not illegal for DVDs.

Of course you cannot set the Progressive Sequence flag if you also set the TFF flag, this is in fact illegal.

Just for fun I checked all the MPEG2 encoders on my HDD, and this is how they behave:

Libavcodec based encoders (FFMpeg and QuEnc):
Both the Progressive Frame Type and the Progressive Sequence flags are set.

ProCoder 2 and 3:
Exactly the same behavior.

CCE SP 2.5 and 2.67:
Progressive Sequence flag not set, but Progressive Frame Type plus the TFF flags are set.

HCenc:
Also sets Progressive Frame Type and TFF flags when the "progressive" option is used. The Progressive Sequence flag can be specified separately.


Another strong indication that the Progressive Sequence flag is legal for DVDs is that MuxMan accepts these streams for authoring. I always found that if MuxMan accepts elementary streams for authoring, then these streams are 100% DVD compliant.



Cheers
manolito

[kolak]

I'm rather convinced as Toshiba and Sony Vizaro encoders use the same signalling as SP3. I also had good relationship with Cinemacraft and know that their software is 100% DVD/BD complaint (they had both specs). There is a reason why Progressive Sequence is set to 0 and this reason is that this is required by DVD spec.
Mr Waggoner will be one of not many people who could have access to DVD spec, so I don't think that he is wrong. He may give us an answer as he is still an active doom9 user.

ProCoder DVD output never was strictly DVD complaint (some players don't like streams from ProCoder)- this is not a reference source at all, neither HCenc or Muxman. Has any of these tools been written by person with DVD spec in hand? SP3 was and has even settings which are not required by the spec, but has been reported as problematic for some players (which I have also seen), e.g. GOPs without B frames.

Scenarist will also import files with Progressive Sequence=1, but Scenarist is not checking mpeg2 files deeply. Does only some checks needed for correct muxing.
You need to run your project through Panasonic verifier, to claim that it's strictly DVD complaint. Your source of validation are very weak in my opinion.

Saying this I have not seen any problems with such a such a files, so this shouldn't be a problem in real world, specially with current generation of players.