why NTSC/PAL still needed?

[vrpatilisl]

hello all
in this digital Era why we still require NTSC/PAL system.
all latest digital cameras show ntfs or pal option,why it needed today?

[microchip8]

Because there are many legacy devices still in use? And it's NTSC and not NTFS, the latter is a Windows file system ;)

[Sparktank]

Yeah, I would bet money on legacy and old devices still existing.

It will be another 10-25 years before it's all mainstreamed that TV's/monitors are just pure digital and all future bluray mediums start pumping out original 24fps.
or whatever fps was used to film. UK tv series film in 25fps.

[Ghitulescu]

Not only - the technology changes faster than human mind.
PAL and NTSC are the decades-long manner of saying this is for USA, this is for Europe. We all know that there is practically no apparatus in Europe that cannot play or display (pun!) NTSC, netively or as PAL60.

[nevcairiel]

Interestingly in contrast to that, american devices will very often lack 25/50 modes to play PAL content natively.
And as a consequence, you end up with native UK content remastered to 24p for the US market....

[Music Fan]

Interestingly in contrast to that, american devices will very often lack 25/50 modes to play PAL content natively.
And as a consequence, you end up with native UK content remastered to 24p for the US market....
Yes, and because of this, most of native 50i contents are converted into 60i when released in Blu-ray, even for the european market :mad:
This often ruins fluidity and sharpness.
That's the case of a lot of concerts and documentaries, probably because publishers don't want to pay for 2 versions, while they often do with dvd.
I even saw shows filmed in 50i (badly) converted into 24p, that's a nonsense.:rolleyes:
That's stupid because at the end, nobody has the best version.

When Blu-ray was invented, the Blu-ray consortium should have forced a worldwide compatiblity with 50hz (at least for the players if not for the screens) to avoid these conversions.
And even when dvd was released actually, because in the 90's, some VCRs were already capable of Pal<=>NTSC conversions (and all Blu-ray players are capable of 24 to 60 hz conversions, they could also make 50 to 60 hz).
Anyway, as 50hz (or Pal) compatibility is not mandatory worldwide, I imagined another simple solution which consists of putting 2 versions (50 and 60 hz) on the same disc (only useful when native format is 50 hz of course), with a 60hz menu to allow everybody to see it, and let the choice between both formats (when the film is not too long, otherwise there is not enough space on disc).


@ vrpatilisl : you can edit the title of the topic (Ntfs -> Ntsc) ;)

[vivan]

No, it's not really needed - unless you have something to do with TV broadcast or optical media (means legacy).

The only real factor is that 60hz is the most common display refresh rate (however we're moving towards 120/144hz), thus sticking to 60 fps is a good idea (or 30/25/24/whatever if you're in "muh soap opera" party).

[huhn]

soap opera effect != high frame rate
soap opera effect = cheap looking image from interpolation

[Music Fan]

No, it's not really needed
What are you talking about ?

The only real factor is that 60hz is the most common display refresh rate (however we're moving towards 120/144hz), thus sticking to 60 fps is a good idea (or 30/25/24/whatever if you're in "muh soap opera" party).
I real think it's a bad idea, there is no good reason to convert 50 hz while it could stay as is to avoid unuseful and ruining conversions.
Billions people live in 50hz zones and they deserve quality too !

[vivan]

soap opera effect != high frame rate
soap opera effect = cheap looking image from interpolationNo. Hobbit was not interpolated, and yet it still was accused for having this effect.
Interpolation gives artifacts, they are annoying - yes. But it doesn't make video unnatural or cheap. Just take any HFR video and compare.

What are you talking about ?About OP question?

I real think it's a bad idea, there is no good reason to convert 50 hz while it could stay as is to avoid unuseful and ruining conversions.
Billions people live in 50hz zones and they deserve quality too !There're no good reasons to perform any framerate conversions. But OP was asking about filming.
Is there any good reason to film at 50 fps if you can film it at 60? Even in PAL land answer is no (unless you have bad reasons like legacy).

Personally I don't have a single device that could refuse to play arbitrary framerate (of course not perfectly because they all use 60hz screens, but that's another question). Even TVs are now basically PCs (more like mobile phones, but you get the idea)...

[nevcairiel]

No. Hobbit was not interpolated, and yet it still was accused for having this effect.
Interpolation gives artifacts, they are annoying - yes. But it doesn't make video unnatural or cheap. Just take any HFR video and compare.


Thats up for debate. Any real HFR video looks much much different (better!) to an interpolated video. But as long as noone is forcing me to interpolate, I won't complain when others want to do it. :)


Is there any good reason to film at 50 fps if you can film it at 60? Even in PAL land answer is no (unless you have bad reasons like legacy).

A lot of expensive hardware that would need to be replaced.
The BBC isn't going to throw away all their 25/50 equipment just because, for example.

[Sparktank]

No. Hobbit was not interpolated, and yet it still was accused for having this effect.
Interpolation gives artifacts, they are annoying - yes. But it doesn't make video unnatural or cheap. Just take any HFR video and compare.

Real HFR material is hard to find.
When I use SVP to watch any of the Hobbit films (or anything else), even to double the fps (47.952fps in NTSC-land), people still call it the "soap opera effect".

It's only "unnatural" because it falls into the "uncanny valley" of not being the standarized 24/23.976 fps rate with motion blur.
The absence of motion blur and the increased detail to any type of lighting (outdoor or studio), enhances that "uncanny valley" effect for most viewers who are not used to (or willing) HFR.

I think the general lighting has a lot to play in what constitutes as solid "uncanny valley".
Some lighting schemes really draw the difference between the real world and what is a prop. Even something so simple as a wig really can look like just a stage/theater wig in HFR.

I think for effective HFR, everything really needs to be more calibrated more than what PJ experienced making The Hobbit trilogy.

[Sparktank]

Thats up for debate. Any real HFR video looks much much different (better!) to an interpolated video. But as long as noone is forcing me to interpolate, I won't complain when others want to do it. :)

Or that, in much shorter terms.

[huhn]

No. Hobbit was not interpolated, and yet it still was accused for having this effect.
Interpolation gives artifacts, they are annoying - yes. But it doesn't make video unnatural or cheap. Just take any HFR video and compare.

people misuse the term for these movies a lot but this doesn't change the fact they misuse it.

any interpolation looks totally cheap compared to real HFR.

[vrpatilisl]

Thanx for reply.
This Color system will cause problem in converting old tv

Programs to Dvd or blu rays.
We never get pure video @24fps .

[Sparktank]

We never get pure video @24fps .

Some blurays you can import are availabe in 24fps.
Mostly PAL regions for bluray will have 24fps BD.

I imported "Rogue (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0479528/)" (2007) from Norway that was in 24fps, rather than 23.976.

NTSC blurays will never use actual 24fps. It's always 23.976.
but Region B blurays might use original 24fps if it's a movie.

[huhn]

the JP eva 3.33 is 24p so even in NTSC region you can get it.

[Sparktank]

I should rephrase to North America.

While Japan uses NTSC like Canada/USA.
The only anime I have is Witch Hunter Robin on DVD.
I'm skeptical about anime on bluray.

[Sharc]

On the positive, the inclusion of legacy formats and framerates in the blu-ray standard allows to include specials in their original (video, mpeg-2, DVD) format. Otherwise we would probably get even more crap from converted material like butchered double conversions which can't be fixed any more.

[foxyshadis]

Interestingly in contrast to that, american devices will very often lack 25/50 modes to play PAL content natively.
And as a consequence, you end up with native UK content remastered to 24p for the US market....

That's just chasing fads and not giving a damn how much damage is done in the pursuit. Funny that TV production is switching to 24p while movie production is experimenting with HFR; Hollywood loathes being in sync with TV.

[hello_hello]

Real HFR material is hard to find.

Technically I guess it's not high frame rate, but I've got a fair amount of PAL video de-interlaced to 50fps with QTGMC, and it often seems a little "uncanny" at first, but that feeling lasts about 30 seconds and when I eventually go back to 24/25fps it can feel a little "jittery" at first.

It's only "unnatural" because it falls into the "uncanny valley" of not being the standarized 24/23.976 fps rate with motion blur.
The absence of motion blur and the increased detail to any type of lighting (outdoor or studio), enhances that "uncanny valley" effect for most viewers who are not used to (or willing) HFR.

For me, it seems it can be both better and worse. Would some of the undesirable effect of low frame rates be due to the way our TVs display video (sample and hold effect maybe?).

I was playing with this sample a while back. It probably won't be perfectly smooth on a 60Hz screen (I'm in PAL-Land) but the middle of the clip where the camera pans looks decidedly horrible on my Plasma at 25fps. That's the main thing that bugs me when it comes to low frame rates. There's a jittery/strobing kind of effect where there's a lot of contrast (black clothing against a white background) combined with movement at slower speeds. After re-encoding with Interframe the camera pan looks way better to me at 50fps, but for last 10 seconds there's a hand-held close-up shot that feels a bit wrong at 50fps, although I've not been able to quite put my finger on "why".

http://www.filedropper.com/25fpsvs50fps

[huhn]

is full of terrible blending artefacts and objects messed up.

[hello_hello]

It was just an Xvid AVI I used for playing around, because I wanted something where motion looked bad and the camera pan in question stuck in my mind, so that's what I used.

It definitely looks smoother at 50fps, but I agree, the frame interpolation isn't necessarily pretty. You'd probably get away with it for "casual watching" but for anything where quality is a priority I wouldn't encode with it. Mind you those files have been sitting on my hard drive for a couple of years. Maybe InterFrame has improved?

I still can't put my finger on exactly why the close up of the actors faces at the end doesn't "feel right". Maybe it's just because it's not something I'm used to.

[Sparktank]

I don't know what version of InterFrame was used, but it has improved, as with SVP.

I use mostly SVP to do interpolated encodes.

I've been watching interpolated for a long time, so I've gotten used to it.
The end looks okay. Really looks like it depends on the camera work for any given scene.
You'll definitely see a punctuation on free-held/hand-held scenes.

Between the libraries for InterFrame/SVP, there's a lot of customizing you can do to change the look of interpolated content..

[vrpatilisl]

@ Sharc
hello dear u have shown something positive in this discussion but can u please elaborate with some pics so newbie like me able to get it properly.
thanx

[vrpatilisl]

hello
In india now movies in theater are digitaly brodcasted by united film organization (UFO) instead of film reel. but i clearly seen that colors on screen appears more vivid than natural some times washed also and film does look like TV serial. That fil look is not there at all,But audio quality is improved over reel .
any comments.?

[Ghitulescu]

Indian movies are always too coloured. It's not a digital defect :) :)

[movmasty]

hello all
in this digital Era why we still require NTSC/PAL system.
all latest digital cameras show ntfs or pal option,why it needed today?Because no one made some unified standard?

NTSC and PAL guys walk each one their own way

But the core of video electronic is in NTSC countries, i still have to see any 1152p.
And i am not sure what the HD european TV is actually transmitting.

And you forget SECAM. :D

[movmasty]

I don't know what version of InterFrame was used, but it has improved, as with SVP.

I use mostly SVP to do interpolated encodes.

I've been watching interpolated for a long time, so I've gotten used to it.
The end looks okay. Really looks like it depends on the camera work for any given scene.
You'll definitely see a punctuation on free-held/hand-held scenes.

Between the libraries for InterFrame/SVP, there's a lot of customizing you can do to change the look of interpolated content..
Is there such a thing for the players?
Since 24 is still good for big movies, i do my encodes for the small pc screen at 15fps(15.625 actually)
this saves to me time and space, but i'd like to double this frame rate on playing.

[Sparktank]

Is there such a thing for the players?

SVP 3.1.7a is still available in archived downloads.
It works with other players. I use MPC-HC.

SVP 4 has free and pro version.
Works with a lot of players too.
They're also working on a MAC version.

https://www.svp-team.com/wiki/SVP:Video_players

PotPlayer is very popular.
But it breaks licence agreements for the software it uses and refuses to acknowledge it.

[movmasty]

SVP 3.1.7a is still available in archived downloads.
It works with other players. I use MPC-HC.

MPC-HC. always crashes my win XP,(also MPC-BE does) im using SMplayer, and GOM when SM has troubles on some file.

Anyone has the same problem? any workaround?

[Sparktank]

MPC-HC. always crashes my win XP,(also MPC-BE does) im using SMplayer, and GOM when SM has troubles on some file.

Anyone has the same problem? any workaround?

You'd have to look up older versions of MPC-HC that are still compatible with XP.
Someone else might be able to better help with all the WinXP versions.

[hello_hello]

MPC-HC 1.7.10 works fine on both my XP PCs.
Well there's a few minor issues such as not being able to use VMR7 (from memory) and the "View/Renderer Settings/Output Range" option doesn't work (it should for the EVR renderer), the new audio options aren't an option, and there's no DXVA2, but none of that should cause MPC-HC to crash.

If you're using something like Interframe or SVP, or opening Avisynths scripts with slow filtering, or running Avisynth scripts in ffdshow, the crash reporter thingy seems to want to report a crash when you close MPC-HC. Deleting the CrashReport sub-folder from the MPC-HC folder stops it annoying you with false alarms. After I deleted it, I couldn't find any evidence the player was actually crashing. It opens and closes normally. I'm not sure if that's just an XP problem or if it applies to newer flavours of Windows.

Other than that, you might have to look at what MPC-HC and MPC-BE have in common, namely the renderer they're using. I'm not sure which renderer they use with XP by default, or if they use the same one, but try changing it to something else. VMR9 (renderless) is generally recommended for XP. If they're both crashing, it might be a problem with your Windows installation (they're both DirectShow players).

[geometer]

I live in PAL universe and regret it as 60Hz can only be better than 50! :)
It came from the historical power line. 240V 50Hz vs. 110V 60Hz.

But I also had the idea that movie shooting at 24 fps in a 50Hz environment creates flickering unless you have expensive special lighting.

[roo1234]

I live in PAL universe and regret it as 60Hz can only be better than 50! :)
It came from the historical power line. 240V 50Hz vs. 110V 60Hz.

But I also had the idea that movie shooting at 24 fps in a 50Hz environment creates flickering unless you have expensive special lighting.
PAL is not necessarily tied with 50hz. I live in a country with PAL and M-system...

[hello_hello]

I live in PAL universe and regret it as 60Hz can only be better than 50! :)
It came from the historical power line. 240V 50Hz vs. 110V 60Hz.

The best refresh rate is an exact multiple of the frame rate. 60Hz isn't an exact multiple of 24. Anything else and you have frames being dropped or repeated, or NTSC pulldown (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#2:3_pulldown) etc.

I live in PAL-Land and I can see still images slightly flicker on my Plasma at 60Hz but not at 50Hz. It's to do with the way Plasmas work and sub-field refresh rates.... a long explanation I only half understand.

I kind of prefer living in PAL land because most HD PAL TVs can also run at a refresh rate of 60Hz and most Bluray players should automatically switch a TV to the correct refresh rate when playing an NTSC DVD or 24fps Bluray, so you get the best of both worlds. My "PAL" Bluray player switches the TV to 60Hz when displaying it's settings and I'm pretty sure my "PAL" Plasma TV runs at 60Hz when playing video via it's internal media player. It's kind of like most PAL devices are NTSC devices with PAL capabilities added on. ;)

50Hz is an exact multiple of 25fps, so all 25fps video will be free of "judder".

Many PAL TVs can also run at a refresh rate of 24Hz, or an exact multiple of it (film mode).

If you're using a PC as a media player you should have complete control over the TV refresh rate.
I leave my TV refreshing at 50Hz, and I use MPC-HC as my media player and Reclock to change the frame rate if need be so I watch 24fps "film" at 25fps most of the time.

But I also had the idea that movie shooting at 24 fps in a 50Hz environment creates flickering unless you have expensive special lighting.

Probably, although it may only apply to certain types of lighting. I'm sure someone else will know.