Motion Interpolation / MotionFlow

[Akeno]

Since Motion Interpolation and Motion Flow questions appear from time to time, I thought it would be better to create a thread dedicated to discussion and questions specifically for MotionFlow rather than having people ask in unrelated threads.

What model Bravia do you have? You should be able to use any of the Motionflow settings with any type of input as long as you are using a Scene mode other than Graphics, Game or Auto (which will auto select Graphics with a PC input).

I use Auto/24p on mine which means it uses Graphics for the desktop and gaming to minimise input lag, but auto switches to Cinema Scene mode if it detects a 24fps input.
I can't recall the model off the top of my head, but I have tried setting using different scene modes. Most options are still disabled on the TV. Maybe it's an Optimus issue? Video Playback seems to have a lot of problems when using Optimus on laptops.

I'm starting to warm to the Standard motionflow option lately as it eradicates 24fps stutter on fast pans (not 3:2 pulldown judder as my set handles 24hz properly, but the effect of 24fps simply not been a high enough framerate smoothly display fast panning).

There's an element of 'soap opera effect' as it's usually referred to, which I despised for a long time. But the more I live with it then the more I'm beginning to actually like what it does and appreciate that a higher framerate (even interpolated) is almost always just simply superior for displaying video.
Do you see artifacts when using MotionFlow? I tried SVP last night (disappointed that I couldn't use it with x64 applications) and, while it did make everything seem smoother, the artifacts made videos unenjoyable to watch. Maybe it works better with live film, but SVP does more harm than good when it comes to anime and even CGI content. I adjusted the settings for anime (as per their guide) but the result was downright nauseating as it constantly switched from interpolating to 60fps and maintaining the original at 24fps and still did not lower the artifacts to an acceptable level.

[huhn]

interpolation will never work flawless. and people in the anime industry worked for there shows to let them look like they are looking.

i would never use an frame creation interpolation just out of respect.

[Akeno]

interpolation will never work flawless. and people in the anime industry worked for there shows to let them look like they are looking.

i would never use an frame creation interpolation just out of respect.

I agree with that and used to be in the same boat, but I've recently come to terms that it's more about preserving perceived motion rather than the whole "60fps" aspect that gamers are pretentious about.

If we take a look at this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHPVDXwMxiA) video, there's a lot less blur and it's much easier to follow the motions of the characters.

[Nevilne]

interpolation will never work flawless. and people in the anime industry worked for there shows to let them look like they are looking.

i would never use an frame creation interpolation just out of respect.

This is just about the worst example. Animation is expensive as hell, in-betweens are outsourced to lowest bidders all the time, but if a studio could magically triple their budget you'd see a good number of high fps stuff. Toei is just about the only studio doing 30 fps for One Piece, and mostly for pans, I think?

[RainyDog]

I can't recall the model off the top of my head, but I have tried setting using different scene modes. Most options are still disabled on the TV. Maybe it's an Optimus issue? Video Playback seems to have a lot of problems when using Optimus on laptops.

Do you see artifacts when using MotionFlow? I tried SVP last night (disappointed that I couldn't use it with x64 applications) and, while it did make everything seem smoother, the artifacts made videos unenjoyable to watch. Maybe it works better with live film, but SVP does more harm than good when it comes to anime and even CGI content. I adjusted the settings for anime (as per their guide) but the result was downright nauseating as it constantly switched from interpolating to 60fps and maintaining the original at 24fps and still did not lower the artifacts to an acceptable level.

It shouldn't be anything to do with the Optimus. Try popping your telly on Cinema Scene Select and as long your set has the full compliment of Motionflow settings, then you should be able to use any of them regardless of the input in Cinema mode.

I don't really see any artifacts using the Standard setting, no, and I consider myself quite nit picky when it comes to video. I mostly watch live action but do also watch a fair bit of anime too. Can't compare to SVP though as I've never tried that.

The Smooth setting changes the overall look a bit too much for me though. Motion is extremely smooth to the point where I actually find it distracting. Completely alters the whole feel. I see artifacts with this setting too as I believe it applies extra aggressive de-blur and blending to sharpen frames which has the unwanted side effect of smoothing away some detail like DNR.

[huhn]

I agree with that and used to be in the same boat, but I've recently come to terms that it's more about preserving perceived motion rather than the whole "60fps" aspect that gamers are pretentious about.

If we take a look at this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHPVDXwMxiA) video, there's a lot less blur and it's much easier to follow the motions of the characters.

the video gives a wrong speed impression and the 24 fps is juddering like crazy no wonder it is play at 60 hz ...

i don't see any motion blur issue. but i see a ton of artefact's created by SVP...

This is just about the worst example. Animation is expensive as hell, in-betweens are outsourced to lowest bidders all the time, but if a studio could magically triple their budget you'd see a good number of high fps stuff. Toei is just about the only studio doing 30 fps for One Piece, and mostly for pans, I think?

a 30 FPS pan doesn't cost a lot more money but they they use a mix of 24/30 fps which makes a lot of problems. animations are usually at 15, 10, 6 or even lower FPS. while 24 fps based amines usually are done with 12, 8, 6 or 4 FPS. pans just look more smooth.

and toei animation has usually low animation quality. but there is no wonder they have little time to make an whole episode.

[Keiyakusha]

This is just about the worst example. Animation is expensive as hell, in-betweens are outsourced to lowest bidders all the time, but if a studio could magically triple their budget you'd see a good number of high fps stuff. Toei is just about the only studio doing 30 fps for One Piece, and mostly for pans, I think?
Have no experience with onepiece but pans require 0 additional cost for any fps.
Also if we are to compate TVs to Movies, which can have high budgets, we can see that any additional costs will likely go towards more detailed backgrounds (people moving at the background instead of being a still picture or absent at all), more complicated textures, (hopefully, less 3D) and stuff like this.
But never mind me. I am not trying to make any point by this.


If we take a look at this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHPVDXwMxiA) video, there's a lot less blur and it's much easier to follow the motions of the characters.

This is so badly made, it does not even worth to be discussed.

In general, I fully support huhn.

[XRyche]

I personally like JanWillem32's Motion Adaptive Frame Interpolation http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=161047 . You get smooth motion without the fake "soap opera" (SVP) look when using "Motion Adaptive - High Motion" setting ("Basic" settings produces major "ghosting" since it's basically de-interlacing frame doubling). Major downside is that because of the way the frame interpolation is done it can produce some rather distracting aliasing artifacts. These aren't too bad if viewed from a distance, hardly noticeable in fact. If your sitting right in front of your monitor it can be extremely distracting. Just a layman's two cents though. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Akeno]

Aliasing artifacts are preferable to the artifacts SVP generates. I wasn't aware that MPC-HC had motion interpolation as a feature. I'll be sure to check it out later tonight.

[XRyche]

Aliasing artifacts are preferable to the artifacts SVP generates. I wasn't aware that MPC-HC had motion interpolation as a feature. I'll be sure to check it out later tonight.

Only JanWillem32's Custom EVR renderer has it. I highly doubt it will ever be merged with the main MPC-HC. JanWillem32's version has deviated to far from the main. It would take him a huge amount of effort to merge and update his renderer to be compatible with the main branch at this point. If in fact, if it is even possible to merge now.

Also you can't use madVR since madVR would replace the custom EVR render which has the Motion Adaptive - Frame Interpolation.

[Akeno]

That's too bad then. I guess I'll have to live with 24fps judder for now.

[Q-the-STORM]

I myself find SVP a LOT better than any motion interpolation from TVs... though I haven't checked recent TVs (latest I really compared is my own, european VT50)...
though I did tweak settings a bit, since I got some artifacts with small objects like the winglets (https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/Images/airplane.jpg) on planes... since the tweak I mostly see artifacts on window shutters, fences and other grid like objects...
But I still prefer SVP to no SVP, even though there are sometimes artifacts, simply because I consider strobing as an artifact as well... and yes there are movies/show that don't have much strobing, but these are also the ones that have no to almost no artifacts with SVP... usually SVP has problems with very strobed scenes, in that case sometimes it works great and sometimes it doesn't.... but since I consider strobing itself an artifact, so in my point of view the image either gets a lot better or it still has artifacts, it doesn't get worse... but all other scenes look better with the exception of before mentioned grid like objects...
So is it worth it to have strobing artifacts removed and some new artifacts added? yes, because 90% of the movie looks a lot better than before... this is opinion... You should at least use SVP for a month, watching a LOT of content before making any decisions.... when I first tried it out I didn't like it much... but I stuck with it for a while and now I don't want to watch anything without it, except for telecined content, since SVP doesn't IVTC... it would be perfect if it would be integrated to madVR, then we could have al benefits from madVRs deinterlacing/IVTC and also have SVP... using SVP means you have to render 60fps with madVR, which means if you use NNEDI3 like I do, you have to have a much more powerful GPU, since your render times need to be under 16,7ms instead of 41,7ms... I'm totally fine watching something that had a good camera operator and doesn't have strobing, but even then, when I turn on SVP, suddenly it looks a lot more pleasing... again, opinion...

these are the settings I use on SVP
http://justpic.info/images1/ec05/qMHym.jpg
according to the dev, turning down search radius can fix the grid object artifacts (he calls it window blinds artifacts) but bigger search radius is usually better overall...

note that for anime you have to set wildly different settings
http://www.svp-team.com/wiki/Watching_anime


and also let me note this...
don't say "soap opera effect/look" if you don't actually mean what it actually means.... simply said: the soap opera effect is psychological effect people in the US that watch a lot if soap operas have...
what happens is they watch good movies and primetime TV shows in 24fps and associate the smoothness of 24fps with good writing, good stories and a good visual picture...
then they also watch soap operas which because of budget and time restraints, usually have bad writing, bad stories and worste directors, worse acting, worse coloring etc etc etc... AND they are historically shot with video cameras at 30/60fps.... so people that watched a lot of bad soap operas associate the increased smoothness with bad writing, bad acting and a generally worse experience than movies... and THAT is the soap opera effect...
sadly in a lot of articles and stuff the soap opera effect is being used synonymously to the smoother look of higher frame rate, but what the soap opera effect is, is simply the association in your brain of higher framerate with bad TV....
So if you are not from the US or have not watched a lot of soap operas shot at higher framerate, then you don't suffer from the soap opera effect....
if you don't like how higher framerate looks, then it's just because (artifacts of interpolation aside) you are not used to it...
had to get that off my chest :P

[XRyche]

and also let me note this...
don't say "soap opera effect/look" if you don't actually mean what it actually means.... simply said: the soap opera effect is psychological effect people in the US that watch a lot if soap operas have...
what happens is they watch good movies and primetime TV shows in 24fps and associate the smoothness of 24fps with good writing, good stories and a good visual picture...
then they also watch soap operas which because of budget and time restraints, usually have bad writing, bad stories and worste directors, worse acting, worse coloring etc etc etc... AND they are historically shot with video cameras at 30/60fps.... so people that watched a lot of bad soap operas associate the increased smoothness with bad writing, bad acting and a generally worse experience than movies... and THAT is the soap opera effect...
sadly in a lot of articles and stuff the soap opera effect is being used synonymously to the smoother look of higher frame rate, but what the soap opera effect is, is simply the association in your brain of higher framerate with bad TV....
So if you are not from the US or have not watched a lot of soap operas shot at higher framerate, then you don't suffer from the soap opera effect....
if you don't like how higher framerate looks, then it's just because (artifacts of interpolation aside) you are not used to it...
had to get that off my chest :P

That is not completely correct. Although, I can understand the basis of your statement.

I, for one, have almost never seen a soap opera myself. Well, never sat down and watched one completely. So I do not associate the smoothness of SVP with soap operas. Although I do have to admit some of the "fakeness" I associate with SVP is probably due to 24 fps in movies.

I don't see the "fakeness" with JanWillem32's motion interpolation. I would best describe it as a happy medium between madVR's "smooth motion" and SVP.

Anyway, since madVR would replace JanWillem32's renderer it's rather a moot point. Most people would not give up madVR and nnedi3 for frame interpolation in any form as long as it has smooth motion.

[Akeno]

Going by your logic, we're essentially trading one artifact for another. The problem with that is, however, the artifact we are gaining is detrimental to the quality of the video. With scaling artifacts, we're displeased by the result but it does not necessarily damage the core experience. The distortion created by SVP does damage our experience and is more distracting to me than the judder of 24hz. Also, I tried their anime settings but those are even worse than the default. While they minimize the artifacts, it's nauseating to watch video that constantly switches from 24hz to 60hz. I did not enable global refinement however as even my i7-4720HQ could not render it properly without dropping frames.

As for the "Soap Opera" affect, I'm in the same boat as XRyche. I have never seen a soap opera in my life but it is very easy for me to tell 30hz from 24hz and likewise for 60hz. There is truth in the fact that we are trained to identify 24hz as more cinematic but I don't think it has anything to do with distaste for higher framerates. Since 30hz is commonly used for TV and 24hz for film, the framerate does play an important role in the viewer's experience but there is still such a thing as too smooth. This is the soap opera effect that most people talk about. This is only a personal observation, but I feel as though the movements and motions in 24hz feel more purposeful while 30hz is more improvised or sloppy.

[huhn]

when you compare a true 60 FPS recoding with a 30 FPS to 60 interpolation you will understand what the soap opera effect is. the normal 60 fps doesn't have it.

i don't have the right words for it. it let motion standout this comes from removed motion blur and from issue with the interpolation. so a arm move is more smooth but doesn't look real. it hard to take acceleration into account and stuff like this.

[Q-the-STORM]

when you compare a true 60 FPS recoding with a 30 FPS to 60 interpolation you will understand what the soap opera effect is. the normal 60 fps doesn't have it.
it is called soap opera effect because soap operas are/were actually filmed at that rate... there were not interpolated... so calling something soap opera effect because something is interpolated is simply wrong...

note that my issue is mostly about using the term "soap opera effect" in the wrong context... if you don't like the way interpolation looks, that's fine... if you don't like the way stuff filmed at 60fps looks that is fine too... (I have both seen and filmed content myself at 60fps and you are right, there is a difference between watching interpolation and true 60fps)

note that the most notable film using a higher frame rate is The Hobbit which was actually filmed at 48fps and a lot of people still hated it, said it looked fake and that it was the soap opera effect that they hated, they missed the "cinematic look" of 24fps...
what they actually meant is that they simply didn't like the way it looked... and the reason for that would mostly be because they weren't used to it... in the future when (hopefully) all content will be shot at higher framerate, people will not have an issue with it, simply because they won't grow up with 24fps and will be used to higher framerate...
what I'm mostly saying is that people use the term synonymously to interpolation, which is wrong... And it bugs me... :P

also note that people can like the way true 60 fps looks, but not like the way interpolation looks...

btw your comment of it not looking real reminds me a lot of motion interpolation on my TV and other TVs I have seen... that motion accelerates when it shouldn't or not accelerates when it should... looks like when someone walks, some steps they take seem to be faster than others, or waving with an arm seems to speed up for no reason... which does not happen with SVP...


now that I'm thinking about it, I should probably take some time in the future to do some testing on the exact differences between interpolation and true 60fps filmed content.. simply filming at 60fps and encoding a clip using SelectEven() and interpolate back to 60fps... every second frame would be interpolated on one clip, on the original I would have the real frame to compare to...
would be interesting to see them side by side...

[Akeno]

It would be interesting to see a test video. I'm certainly not against 60fps content (especially when it comes to video games).

I have also read that theaters are able to minimize the perceived judder of 24hz due to the double shutter action of the projector. Frames are displayed at 1/48 speed with black frames in between each. The blanking allows our brain to fill in the gaps. Either that, or 24hz judder may just be extremely noticeable on LCDs due to slow color transitions.

In the case of either, would a digital projector actually work better than TVs in reducing perceived judder?

[huhn]

it is called soap opera effect because soap operas are/were actually filmed at that rate... there were not interpolated... so calling something soap opera effect because something is interpolated is simply wrong...


the german wiki says something else:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap-Opera-Effekt


The soap opera effect caused by inter-frame calculation for movie playback and referred to a significant withdrawal of moving actors and objects from the background.

and SVP isn't any better than TV interpolation i even have to say the total opposite TV interpolations are way less aggressive than SVP default settings and they usually have the freedom to interpolate up to 120 HZ and it is way easier to convert 24 fps to 120 hz than24 hz to 60 hz.