I cannot figure out if I have 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 (special case)

[XMonarchY]

I am using this image from madVR thread - http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png . The test was done outside of madVR, using Windows Photo Viewer.

Eizo Foris FG2421 MVA monitor - DisplayPort, Full range, RGB, 8bit:
- the image shows 4:2:2 in barely noticeable lines and 4:4:4 very clearly

ASUS IPS monitor - DisplayPort, Full range, RGB, 8bit:
- the image shows 4:2:2 in barely noticeable lines and 4:4:4 very clearly

Samsung SPVA HDTV - High-Speed HDMI, Full range, RGB, 8bit/12bit (bit-depth settings do not affect the results in my case):
A. Movie mode
- the image shows 4:2:2 very clearly and does not show 4:4:4
- text looks awful
B. Standard mode
- the image shows 4:2:2 in rather clear lines, but also shows 4:4:4 just as clearly as on Eizo Foris FG2421 MVA monitor and ASUS IPS monitor! Not kidding!
- text looks really good, but not as nice and perfect as in true PC mode

What does this mean?

Here's how I have my Samsung HDTV (CCFL SPVA screen from 2009) set up:
- I do not use true PC mode, which shows 4:2:2 in barely noticeable lines and 4:4:4 very clearly like my monitors because PC mode color gamut / colorspace cannot be adjusted on my set
- I use Standard mode instead of Movie mode because it allows me to use calibrated color gamut / colorspace settings, shows both 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 clearly, and allows me enable Gaming mode, which reduces input lag, TV's internal processing, and also utilizes calibrated color gamut / colorspace

- Does this mean there is actually a hybrid mode between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 when Standard mode is used on my HDTV?
- Does make any difference when it comes to madVR's settings and using Full/Limited range + RGB?

[mindbomb]

i think displayport always implies 4:4:4 full range, so you don't have to worry about the first 2.

[QBhd]

Are you sure you are looking at that image at 1:1 (100% zoom)? If you are sure about that, it sounds like your TV is doing all kinds of Voodoo behind your back in Standard mode, and that is something I would steer clear of!

QB

[XMonarchY]

i think displayport always implies 4:4:4 full range, so you don't have to worry about the first 2.

I could care less for monitors connected to DisplayPort - they are obviously 4:4:4. Its the HDTV I am interested in.

[XMonarchY]

Are you sure you are looking at that image at 1:1 (100% zoom)? If you are sure about that, it sounds like your TV is doing all kinds of Voodoo behind your back in Standard mode, and that is something I would steer clear of!

QB

Yup, 100% zoom. Whatever TV is doing, its doing it with very low latency and in Gaming mode, which removes some internal TV processing.

I can tell you this much - Movie mode (definite 4:2:2) text looks awful, but Standard mode text looks 100x better (than text in Movie mode), but not as perfectly good/fine as in true PC mode.

[huhn]

so it is most likely just sharping (which is pretty bad if you would ask me). if you have an sharping option try to play with that for some time and look at the results.

[James Freeman]

Why don't you set the tv to PC mode and use 3DLUT for calibration?

*Sharpness might give you false 4:4:4 reading.

[XMonarchY]

so it is most likely just sharping (which is pretty bad if you would ask me). if you have an sharping option try to play with that for some time and look at the results.

NOPE or at least I don't think so... I spent a lot of time in my TV's Service Mode, which was required for color gamut / colorspace calibration and I eradicated sharpness/edge enhancement beyond anything regular menu allows. This HDTV passes this test - http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/sharpness.php with flying colors. Besides, no matter how you adjust sharpening/Edge Enhancement in Movie mode, text will always look awful, but not in Standard mode. In Standard mode any amount of sharpening or disabled sharpening/Edge Enhancement has no effect on text or the 4:4:4 test. I already stated that 4:4:4 test shows "4:4:4" very vividly/solid, and 4:2:2 in lines, but in lines more obvious than in PC mode.

What is it with you always trying to put down my HDTV or monitors as being bad? I just have slightly unique cases with my HDTV in Standard mode and with Eizo Foris FG2421 8bit input setting in NVidia CP and 10bit setting in madVR with maVR dithering disabled. I don't claim them to be some top-of-the-line special units, but I can't deny the truth about the way they function!

There are 3 reasons NOT to use PC mode on this TV:
- I want to do both - watch films AND play games with calibrated color gamut / colorspace. PC mode colorspace on this TV is out of whack and cannot be adjusted. Its not a problem when it comes to video playback due to madVR's awesome 3DLUT capability, but it does create a problem if you want to play and see games the way they were developed or as close to it as possible.
- My TV supports judder-free 48Hz mode, which flickers a bit during white scenes, but overall motion is much better than 60Hz mode + madVR's Smooth Motion.
- PC mode colors seem very dim no matter how brightness, contrast, and/or backlight are adjusted. 1DLUT or even 3DLUT do not really have an effect this "luminance" issue.

[huhn]

this test is pure luma not chroma 4:2:2 or 4.4:4 doesn't matter for luma.


I already stated that 4:4:4 test shows "4:4:4" very vividly/solid, and 4:2:2 in lines, but in lines more obvious than in PC mode.

this is the typical result of an sharped 4:2:2/4:2:0 of this chroma test image.

[XMonarchY]

this test is pure luma not chroma 4:2:2 or 4.4:4 doesn't matter for luma.



this is the typical result of an sharped 4:2:2/4:2:0 of this chroma test image.


So what is another good way to test it? You completed ignored the fact that in Standard mode, this TV passes Sharpness tests!

[huhn]

yes an luma sharping test.

count the numbers in the 4:2:2.
i personally look at the pixel structure. so the 4:4:4 and the 4:2:2 on the image are just for the first impression.

is the number of lines in the 4:2:2 the same as on the PC monitor?

this image has only 3 colors 255 red 255 blue and only at the 4:4:4 128 red/blue.

[James Freeman]

Go to windows Paint, fill the background black and paint a single red pixel.
Stick your nose into the TV and see if only one red sub-pixel of that pixel lights.
See how it looks in PC mode and compare.

This is a last resort method, works every time.

Cheers

[huhn]

this really works?

[James Freeman]

Try it.

[huhn]

my TV in 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 mode turned that pixel into something like 255 red 200 blue 200 green but still only on one pixel. i'm pretty sure that's not the default behavior of a display with 4:2:2 but what ever worked in my case.

[James Freeman]

Try one horizontal line higher.
Try two red pixel in a diagonal.

[huhn]

for what?

it is clearly subsampling and that pretty bad. r255 g200 b200 is a way brighter pixel than r255 g0 b0.

[vomanci]

Whatever you think or do, Samsung TV's only do 4:4:4 on PC MODE and at 60HZ. The rest is 4:2:2.

[XMonarchY]

Whatever you think or do, Samsung TV's only do 4:4:4 on PC MODE and at 60HZ. The rest is 4:2:2.

Hmmm... OK I guess its 4:2:2, although the dot test indicates 4:4:$. PC Mode sucks - doesn't pass any sharpness tests, text looks only a tiny bit better than in Standard + Gaming mode, input lag only a tiny bit better than in Standard + Gaming mode, colorspace calibration accepted, but most importantly the image sucks.

It is still beyond me WHAT causes my TV's 4:2:2 to look like 4:4:4 because it is undeniably NOT sharpness.

OK, let's assume it is 4:2:2, 4:4:4 sucks, and I want to stick to 4:2:2 for both video games and video playback. Right now RGB Full Range 12bit depth is selected. Whether I select Full Range or Limited Range has no effect on banding or anything like that. However, I wondering whether selecting YCbCr444 would be a better than selecting RGB since there would be less up-down conversion from to/from RGB? I can only select RGB (Full or Limited) and YCbCr444 (Limited).

[huhn]

Hmmm... OK I guess its 4:2:2, although the dot test indicates 4:4:$. PC Mode sucks - doesn't pass any sharpness tests, text looks only a tiny bit better than in Standard + Gaming mode, input lag only a tiny bit better than in Standard + Gaming mode, colorspace calibration accepted, but most importantly the image sucks.
than your PC mode is broken not on uncommon on older TVs...

the whole idea about PC mode is a mode that doesn't sharp or do anything like that a pure "direct mode".
However, I wondering whether selecting YCbCr444 would be a better than selecting RGB since there would be less up-down conversion from to/from RGB? I can only select RGB (Full or Limited) and YCbCr444 (Limited).

is the same number of conversation.

[pirlouy]

but most importantly the image sucks.
I had this feeling too. But I realized if I wanted to have the same image as Samsung 4:2:2 mode, I had to go in madVR and add saturation (+15).

Whatever tools you'll use to have the perfect image, there's a good chance you'll prefer an improved image over the real one. In my case, I noticed I liked saturated images.

[XMonarchY]

than your PC mode is broken not on uncommon on older TVs...

the whole idea about PC mode is a mode that doesn't sharp or do anything like that a pure "direct mode".


is the same number of conversation.

So is my ASUS IPS monitor also broke? It sharps as much as PC Mode on Samsung HDTV, even though Sharpness is set to 0. The same goes for Eizo Foris FG2421... ALL BROKEN?

[huhn]

So is my ASUS IPS monitor also broke? It sharps as much as PC Mode on Samsung HDTV, even though Sharpness is set to 0. The same goes for Eizo Foris FG2421... ALL BROKEN?

so your monitors didn't pass the sharpness test? if this is the case tis a little bit longer about this.

[XMonarchY]

so your monitors didn't pass the sharpness test? if this is the case tis a little bit longer about this.

It appears no monitor passes that test! I went by local PC shop that had all kinds of IPS and TN monitors + internet on a completely different AMD video card and none of them passed this specific test - http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/sharpness.php .

[nevcairiel]

It appears no monitor passes that test! I went by local PC shop that had all kinds of IPS and TN monitors + internet on a completely different AMD video card and none of them passed this specific test - http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/sharpness.php .

Sounds like you are doing the test wrong. If I look at the pattern on any of my PC screens from the other side of the room, it blends into plain gray.

[huhn]

i'm not a huge fan of these test pictures anyway. you can apply as much lumasharpen as you pleases and it doesn't change the out come.

the usually neutral sharpness values are 0, 50% and very rare 100%. i'm pretty happy that my monitors doesn't have this useless option.

[James Freeman]

The Lagom Sharpness test will be off if your gamma is not 2.20.

[XMonarchY]

The Lagom Sharpness test will be off if your gamma is not 2.20.

I use BT.1886 gamma. I guess I need to create a 1DLUT with power-law 2.2 gamma to test it again.

[James Freeman]

Don't use bt1886 in your worst nightmares, on an LCD it will result in a very bright image.
FACT: All movies are graded on 2.2 gamma displays.

Please note that all the DVDs and Blu-Rays you will be watching will have been professionally graded and mastered on displays calibrated to Rec709 with a gamma of 2.2 to 2.35.
We do a lot of the calibration for the professional grading and mastering rooms, so know this well.
(LightSpace CMS is one of the most used calibration systems in the professional market)
And 2.2 is the more common 'standard' used.
BT.1886, with a gamma of 2.4, will get adopted in time, but that time is not yet.
Steve

On all the Sony CRTs we have profiled the ALL measured closer to 2.2... and I mean ALL (and we have profiled MANY over the years,,,,).
We have calibrated displays to Rec709 and BT.1886, and Rec709 is always closer to the traditional Sony CRT.
Steve

There is not any BT.1886 Workflow from my experience running Light Illusion LightSpace CMS & THX CineSpace, the 2 world-leader software that is used at blu-ray post-production houses around the world.
THX Cinespace has 2 worklows: ITU-R_709_g2.2 + ITU-R_709_g2.4. I don't know if it's possible to request a specific workflow from THX.
In Light Illusion LightSpace CMS you can set the gamma by entering the value you want based at power curve.
I have no info about FilmLight Truelight color management system BT.1886 support because it's a Linux/Mac OS X software.
Currently i don't believe there is any reason to follow BT.1886 curve as the blu-ray movies are not mastered to this standard.
* LightSpace has added BT.1886 at October 2012, i don't think any studio has used it yet for any blu-ray release.

These posts are from men whom actually calibrates the displays in major studios.
Listen to them.

Use this in dispcalgui for any 1000:1 contrast display (LCDs):
Tone Curve: Gamma 2.2 Relative.
Black output offset 70%.
Black point correction: 0%, Rate 4.00.
Calibration Speed: Low

These settings are my Secret "creme de la creme" for my IPS.

[baii]

Don't use bt1886 in your worst nightmares, on an LCD it will result in a very bright image.
FACT: All movies are graded on 2.2 gamma displays.







These posts are from men whom actually calibrates the displays in major studios.
Listen to them.

Use this in dispcalgui for any 1000:1 contrast display (LCDs):
Tone Curve: Gamma 2.2 Relative.
Black output offset 70%.
Black point correction: 0%, Rate 4.00.
Calibration Speed: Low

These settings are my Secret "creme de la creme" for my IPS.

hmm, that's mean we should use pure 2.2/bt.709 2.2 for 3dlut? kind of weird ~
I think the calibration curves(by dispcal) does not matter much if a 3dlut is used though.

[James Freeman]

Dispcalgui (argyllCMS) can generate any gamma in the 3DLUT as you choose AFTER the calibration.
In the calibration tab, tone curve should be set to "As Measured" if you don't need an ICC for the OS, else, use same settings as posted.

I suggest starting from:
Tone Curve: Gamma 2.2 Relative.
Black output offset 100%.

And slowly (5% each time) lowering the Black output offset till you see level 17.
In my case at 100% 17-19 are clipped to black until I lower the % to around 70%.

[baii]

well, some of my display does need to go through the dispcal calibation before 3dlut.

I will try a new 3dlut, though I don't really lose much contrast ratio when using bt.1886 2.4.

[James Freeman]

You don't lose actual contrast ratio but you lose apparent contrast with BT.1886.
Gamma 2.2 is the de-facto standard of yesterday, today, and tomorrow with static contrast ratio displays of TV or Home Video content.
Want to see what the grading studio saw? Use 2.2 Gamma curve with compensated blacks.

[baii]

You don't lose actual contrast ratio but you lose apparent contrast with BT.1886.
Gamma 2.2 is the de-facto standard of yesterday, today, and tomorrow with static contrast ratio displays of TV or Home Video content.
Want to see what the grading studio saw? Use 2.2 Gamma curve with compensated blacks.

I just tested it out, it does indeed fix one of my display (dell u2711) which I thought the color is little bit washout. For another display with deeper blacks (~1000:1), the difference is not that much.

[XMonarchY]

I won't go into gamma argument here. I've been on AVS Display Calibration forums for a long time, have seen all the sides of this argument, and made a decision for myself.

[James Freeman]

I won't go into gamma argument here. I've been on AVS Display Calibration forums for a long time and have seen all the sides of this argument and made a decision for myself.

That's right.
Nothing matters except what looks good to you.

I like the look of 2.2 gamma + compensated blacks on a low contrast IPS display, that is my preference.

[Asmodian]

Don't use bt1886 in your worst nightmares, on an LCD it will result in a very bright image.
FACT: All movies are graded on 2.2 gamma displays.

Your quotes seem to indicate your FACT: isn't a fact; the gamma could be anything between 2.2 and 2.35/2.4. BT.1886 is for watching well mastered content on a lower contrast display. If you cannot match all the characteristics of the mastering display and environment you do not want to try to match the mastering display's gamma curve.

Use this in dispcalgui for any 1000:1 contrast display (LCDs):
Tone Curve: Gamma 2.2 Relative.
Black output offset 70%.
Black point correction: 0%, Rate 4.00.
Calibration Speed: Low

These settings are my Secret "creme de la creme" for my IPS.

Don't you get some black crush with those settings? Anyway, I disagree with your settings based on calibrating my ~1000:1 IPS displays so I guess "calibrate to what you like" is the best advice.

[huhn]

bt 1886 is the standard for dark rooms now it is trying to create the gamma from a CRT. it is even right for perfect CR display it turns into gamma 2.4 for them which is the "correct" gamma for dark rooms.

gamma 2.2 is "right" in a well lit room and supposed to be used for mastering.

in the end it should be choicen on the performance of the display and the room ambient light.

gamma 2.4 in a daylight lit room is for sure not a good idea and the usually 100-120 cm² are not good choice there too.

and like said by XMonarchY before talking about gamma is getting us no where

[XMonarchY]

Here's how I see it.

1. We don't know which exact gamma was used to master whichever content. It isn't always power-law 2.2 tone curve
2. Mastering studio displays have excellent black levels that are better than 99% of consumer TV's black levels, therefore using the gamma tone that was used for mastering on consumer displays will not produce the same image as the one seen in mastering studios
3. Power-law 2.2 does clamp lower black levels and higher white levels visually on most consumer displays, unlike BT.1886 gamma that creates a gradual change from black to white at exactly the same visual rate
4. Slowly and gradually, BT.1886 is becoming the new standard - take a look at the ASUS ROG (TN version) and several other new monitors that come with BT.1886-like presets
5. While BT.1886 gamma is most helpful on displays with low contrast ratio, it works very well even on high-end plasma TV's like VT/ZT60

Some people report "washed out" blacks with BT.1886, but such blacks shows more detail and often add a sense of volume to the image. In the same scenes, power-law 2.2 gamma would also show slightly washed out blacks because the lowest 0-level black was not used in that image. Films like Batman (all 3 films), X-Files - Fight the Future (and TV series), and well... 90% of the films I own look incredible with BT.1886 gamma. The other 90% look bad even with power-law 2.2 gamma curve.

There IS one reason to use power-law 2.2 on monitors. The reason for that is GAMES! See, unlike mastering studios that use very high-end displays with super-low black levels, game developers mostly use IPS monitors calibrated to power-law 2.2 gamma. Therefore, using power-law 2.2 gamma for games would technically result in you seeing the image exactly as it was made. I, however, still stick to BT.1886 in games because it looks better IMHO. Witcher 3, for example, with power-law 2.2 gamma in caves produces some major black crushing.

I never heard of "daylight" or "dark room" gamma. The same gamma should be used in both cases.