madVR 10-bit Display Support Test

[huhn]

A few more questions if you don't mind: What's your monitor? Is it connected with DisplayPort or HDMI? Does the color format setting in CCC stay at RGB when you switch the output bit depth there to 10 bit?
it's on old Phillips TV from 2011 week 11 (that's what's in the identification at least.).
should be the PFL 4603 12 maybe...
i use HDMI

changing the bit deep in the driver doesn't change to YCbCr or RGB limited. it is by default set to 10 bit anyway.

edit: it's a 42PFL4606H/12
i found this on the back of the screen

[huhn]

True, this would be interesting to test as well. Though it should be easy to determine if 10 bit data was ever reduced to 8 bits. For example, if you sent a 10 bit gradient out to the capture card and then viewed a histogram of the captured gradient, I imagine you would see evenly spaced gaps/peaks in the histogram if it was reduced to 8 bits along the way. Anyway, if nobody has a capture card, I guess we'll never know.

i tested thsi already with my screen.

i disabled the dithering with that registry "hack" and disabled madVR dithering.

when i set the GPU to output 8 bit i saw clearly banding. when i set it to 10 bit i didn't saw banding only a little bit. looks like my 8 bit screen dithered the 10 bit from the GPU.

it would be very strange if the GPU would dither 10 bit to 8 bit if it is set to output 10 bit and didn't dither it when set to 8 bit.
so it is pretty much clear that the registry "hack" has disabled the dithering and my screen is doing this.

[James Freeman]

Good news, the Panasonic ST60 takes 10bit perfectly with Nvidia through HDMI if the digital color format is YCbCr444 Limited;
EDIT: It also takes RGB 10bit if it set to Limited range 16-235, but only 8bit if Full range 0-255.
Or in short, it takes 8-10 (or more) as long as the range is limited.

ryrynz.
You've got the VT50 don't you?
Try the test again, the VT50 and ST60 are practically the same.

[MS-DOS]

it's on old Phillips TV from 2011 week 11 (that's what's in the identification at least.).
should be the PFL 4603 12 maybe...
i use HDMI

changing the bit deep in the driver doesn't change to YCbCr or RGB limited. it is by default set to 10 bit anyway.
Thanks :) Couldn't find anything regarding "PFL 4603" though...

Guess I should just install 14.12 and connect my U2212HM with DisplayPort someday to see what's going on there. Not that there will be any benefits for a 6 bit +A-FRC panel, but it's still interesting if it can handle a 10 bit signal at all.

[huhn]

Thanks :) Couldn't find anything regarding "PFL 4603" though...

Guess I should just install 14.12 and connect my U2212HM with DisplayPort someday to see what's going on there. Not that there will be any benefits for a 6 bit +A-FRC panel, but it's still interesting if it can handle a 10 bit signal at all.

the name of the screen is 42PFL4606H/12

i edit it in my post

[RenderGuy2]

i tested thsi already with my screen.

i disabled the dithering with that registry "hack" and disabled madVR dithering.

when i set the GPU to output 8 bit i saw clearly banding. when i set it to 10 bit i didn't saw banding only a little bit. looks like my 8 bit screen dithered the 10 bit from the GPU.

it would be very strange if the GPU would dither 10 bit to 8 bit if it is set to output 10 bit and didn't dither it when set to 8 bit.
so it is pretty much clear that the registry "hack" has disabled the dithering and my screen is doing this.


Yes, it would be nice to 100% confirm than the gpu isn't performing any dithering. Sounds promising for AMD after the registry edit. Does any one know if something similar needs to be/can be done for Nvidia?

[James Freeman]

Does any one know if something similar needs to be/can be done for Nvidia?
Nvidia does not dither.

[huhn]

Yes, it would be nice to 100% confirm than the gpu isn't performing any dithering. Sounds promising for AMD after the registry edit. Does any one know if something similar needs to be/can be done for Nvidia?

i don't think it is needed to even do this registry edit. it's better to not do it to be honest. if the AMD driver gets 10 bit and can't output 10 bit to the screen is will not dither to 8 bit and the result is bad.

[huhn]

i just tried my HD4400 with my TV.

madVR said the output is 10 bit but the FSE change is instant and the picture looks like undithered 8 bit.
so i guess the intel isn't outputting 10 bit at all.

[fairchild]

I use a 16bit greyscale ramp png (converted from 10 bit test ramp.psd, which should be same as the 1 by AMD) that was made to test OPENGL 30bit support in photoshop.

It is much easier to spot if the panel do 10 bit.

https://mega.co.nz/#!OYoQ2IID!0CzRLlDL7v-RXxTjt4FPqDURwcEqWR70VyqpKROztK4

PS: enable LAV filter RGB48.

I just tested my Sony 32EX400 LCD and it appears to work with dithering using the provided 10 bit test ramp, it's very easy to see and the screen does indeed seem to change modes when going FSE.

I'm going to test my 55VT60 panasonic plasma next and see the results of that.

Edit: Just tested my 55VT60 and same thing, both appear to smooth out both gradient pat'erns that I use when going FSE. (also used the one in the OP) Using 13.12 AMD drivers on my 7870 while in RGB Limited.

Maybe someone can answer something for me though, after I have verified that 10-bit is actually working on my setup, do I have to leave the calibration options the same or can I go back to how it was setup which is saying that my display is calibrated to BT709 and disable GPU gamma ramps was unchecked?

[luk008]

Excuse me, but in the driver panel we must flag 10bit or not?

With EDID my video driver automatically sets YCbCr444 10bit
i think that this maybe a way to understand if the panel support 10bit

there is a way to read edid info?

a similar tool is reliable?
http://developer.amd.com/tools-and-sdks/graphics-development/amd-edid-utility/

For this you can use http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm

[ryrynz]

You've got the VT50 don't you?
Try the test again, the VT50 and ST60 are practically the same.

Can confirm better grey transistioning using YCbCr444, never thought to test that in particular when comparing these modes earlier.
Hard to tell if 10 bit is changing anything compared to 8 bit here (the only way I believe this can be tested quickly is to simply right click and break out of FSE mode) but I'll be keeping it in YCbCr444.

[Francois76l]

Nvidia does not dither.

Hello James.
When I set Madvr to output 10bit, my projector (JVC x35 / RS46) receive a 12bit signal because nvidia driver can't send 10 bit (only 8 or 12bit).
So does it mean that nvidia driver are dithering the signal?

[James Freeman]

...because nvidia driver can't send 10 bit (only 8 or 12bit).


Are you sure about this saying?
Nvidia does not dither any way.

[huhn]

Are you sure about this saying?
Nvidia does not dither any way.

the 362.63 driver didn't let me choice 10 bit so yes i guess it's true that nvidia is limited to 8 or 12 bit. pretty bad if you ask me...

[nevcairiel]

Just as with audio, zero-padding bitdepth to extend it will never harm the quality.

[huhn]

Just as with audio, zero-padding bitdepth to extend it will never harm the quality.

it's not that bad if all TVs would always support 10 bit and 12 bit input at the same time.
but i wouldn't be shocked if some TV only support 10 bit and 8 bit input.

[tobindac]

madVR dithering is better quality than the mystery FRC inside the monitor.

You have no idea if what you just said is true and you know it.

It's possible.

[tobindac]

Maybe those tests would be much easier if each stripe was a completely different color. We don't want to check the differences between colors, but that the colors of the stripes differ.

[James Freeman]

You have no idea if what you just said is true and you know it.
It's possible.

True.

Others claim that FRC in displays actually looks smoother because it is not dependent on the video frame rate like madVR is.
Users claim this at 6bit+dithering in madVR where the pattern is still clearly visible but 6+FRC is less visible.

At 8+ bit it's an absolute guess game.
So how would we actually know without seeing if madVR is better than FRC at 8+ bits?
Maybe it is utterly pointless at this stage.

[tobindac]

The big info for me today is that the AMD driver dithers by default. For me, that makes the case a bit unimportant since a lot of us seeing "10bit" were just seeing the dither of AMD.

I'll just put it on 8bit in madvr myself. Not for anything else, but there is a blank screen for 2sec before going 10bit and I'd rather avoid it if it had no benefits.

I know there may be a theoretical benefit because of madvr doing its calculations on more accurate floating point numbers, but I doubt it can be noticed.

[James Freeman]

If I understand you correctly you want to use madVR in 8bit WITHOUT dithering?.. Don't.
Always use dithering in madVR in 8bit because banding is still very visible.

[tobindac]

No no no, dithering and all. I'll just turn off 10bit and use all the bells and whistles as normal. I find it a hassle feeding 10bit to an 8bit monitor when it inflicts an annoying 2sec delay every time it goes full screen.

[huhn]

The big info for me today is that the AMD driver dithers by default. For me, that makes the case a bit unimportant since a lot of us seeing "10bit" were just seeing the dither of AMD.

I'll just put it on 8bit in madvr myself. Not for anything else, but there is a blank screen for 2sec before going 10bit and I'd rather avoid it if it had no benefits.

I know there may be a theoretical benefit because of madvr doing its calculations on more accurate floating point numbers, but I doubt it can be noticed.

you miss understand this.

AMD can dither the input to 12, 10 or 8 bit and than send it to the TV. don't forget GPU support 16 bit input. but you can easily choice what you want to output to the display. so you have very high control of the AMD driver.

i'm real impressed by this i usually prefer nvidia driver but in term of high bit deep output AMD has currently the better options.

[tobindac]

you miss understand this.

AMD can dither the input to 12, 10 or 8 bit and than send it to the TV. don't forget GPU support 16 bit input. but you can easily choice what you want to output to the display. so you have very high control of the AMD driver.

i'm real impressed by this i usually prefer nvidia driver but in term of high bit deep output AMD has currently the better options.

I don't get where I said something that opposes that. I realize that there may be even some theoretical benefits to work with 10bit before sending to an 8bit. I just find it not worth it since there is a big delay of about 2seconds before the screen can finally show "10bit"(8bit) (when turning on fullscreen) while I know the "improvements", if any, in such a case would be likely impossible to be noticed by a human.

[huhn]

I don't get where I said something that opposes that. I realize that there may be even some theoretical benefits to work with 10bit before sending to an 8bit. I just find it not worth it since there is a big delay of about 2seconds before the screen can finally show "10bit"(8bit) (when turning on fullscreen) while I know the "improvements", if any, in such a case would be likely impossible to be noticed by a human.

and where does AMD dither play a rule in this?

[luk008]

Is HDMI 2.0 necessary to output 10 bits (I'm using 1.4)?

[James Freeman]

HDMI 1.3 can do 10bit, 12bit, and 16bit in RGB or YCbCr.

Although I think it is in Limited Range (Sometimes called Standard Range) (16-235) only.
EDIT: At least it is what I see with Nvidia GPU and a Panasonic ST60.

[huhn]

HDMI 1.3 can do 10bit, 12bit, and 16bit in RGB or YCbCr.
Although I think it is in Limited Range (Sometimes called Standard Range) (16-235) only.

no can be full range too. at least i'm pretty sure this is the case on my screen.

full range and limited range take the same bandwidth anyway.

[x7007]

it says my Tv 7007 support

here is the full log
Monitor Asset Manager Report, generated 15/05/2015
Copyright (c) 1995-2014, EnTech Taiwan.
---------------------------

Monitor #1 [Real-time 0x0071]
Model name............... Philips FTV
Manufacturer............. Philips
Plug and Play ID......... PHL0000
Serial number............ n/a
Manufacture date......... 2012, ISO week 18
Filter driver............ None
-------------------------
EDID revision............ 1.3
Input signal type........ Digital
Color bit depth.......... Undefined
Display type............. RGB color
Screen size.............. 880 x 490 mm (39.7 in)
Power management......... Not supported
Extension blocs.......... 1 (CEA-EXT)
-------------------------
DDC/CI................... Not supported

Color characteristics
Default color space...... Non-sRGB
Display gamma............ 2.20
Red chromaticity......... Rx 0.640 - Ry 0.330
Green chromaticity....... Gx 0.290 - Gy 0.600
Blue chromaticity........ Bx 0.150 - By 0.060
White point (default).... Wx 0.289 - Wy 0.299
Additional descriptors... None

Timing characteristics
Horizontal scan range.... 15-70kHz
Vertical scan range...... 48-62Hz
Video bandwidth.......... 170MHz
CVT standard............. Not supported
GTF standard............. Not supported
Additional descriptors... None
Preferred timing......... Yes
Native/preferred timing.. 1920x1080p at 60Hz (16:9)
Modeline............... "1920x1080" 148.500 1920 2008 2052 2200 1080 1084 1089 1125 +hsync +vsync
Detailed timing #1....... 1920x1080p at 50Hz (16:9)
Modeline............... "1920x1080" 148.500 1920 2448 2492 2640 1080 1084 1089 1125 +hsync +vsync

Standard timings supported
640 x 480p at 60Hz - IBM VGA
800 x 600p at 60Hz - VESA
1024 x 768p at 60Hz - VESA
1680 x 1050p at 60Hz - VESA STD
1440 x 900p at 60Hz - VESA STD
1600 x 1200p at 60Hz - VESA STD
1400 x 1050p at 60Hz - VESA STD
1280 x 800p at 60Hz - VESA STD
1280 x 1024p at 60Hz - VESA STD
1280 x 960p at 60Hz - VESA STD

EIA/CEA-861 Information
Revision number.......... 3
IT underscan............. Supported
Basic audio.............. Supported
YCbCr 4:4:4.............. Supported
YCbCr 4:2:2.............. Supported
Native formats........... 1
Detailed timing #1....... 1920x1080p at 24Hz (16:9)
Modeline............... "1920x1080" 74.250 1920 2558 2602 2750 1080 1084 1089 1125 +hsync +vsync
Detailed timing #2....... 1920x1080i at 50Hz (16:9)
Modeline............... "1920x1080" 74.250 1920 2448 2492 2640 1080 1084 1094 1124 interlace +hsync +vsync
Detailed timing #3....... 1280x720p at 50Hz (16:9)
Modeline............... "1280x720" 74.250 1280 1720 1760 1980 720 725 730 750 +hsync +vsync
Detailed timing #4....... 1920x1080i at 60Hz (16:9)
Modeline............... "1920x1080" 74.250 1920 2008 2052 2200 1080 1084 1094 1124 interlace +hsync +vsync

CE video identifiers (VICs) - timing/formats supported
1920 x 1080p at 60Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1920 x 1080p at 50Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1920 x 1080p at 24Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1920 x 1080p at 30Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1920 x 1080p at 25Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1920 x 1080i at 60Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1920 x 1080i at 50Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1280 x 720p at 60Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1280 x 720p at 50Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
720 x 576p at 50Hz - EDTV (16:9, 64:45)
720 x 480p at 60Hz - EDTV (16:9, 32:27)
720 x 576p at 50Hz - EDTV (4:3, 16:15)
720 x 480p at 60Hz - EDTV (4:3, 8:9)
720 x 576i at 50Hz - Doublescan (16:9, 64:45)
720 x 480i at 60Hz - Doublescan (16:9, 32:27)
720 x 576i at 50Hz - Doublescan (4:3, 16:15)
720 x 480i at 60Hz - Doublescan (4:3, 8:9)
640 x 480p at 60Hz - Default (4:3, 1:1)
NB: NTSC refresh rate = (Hz*1000)/1001

CE audio data (formats supported)
LPCM 2-channel, 16/20/24 bit depths at 32/44/48/88/96 kHz
AC-3 6-channel, 640k max. bit rate at 32/44/48 kHz

CE speaker allocation data
Channel configuration.... 2.0
Front left/right......... Yes
Front LFE................ No
Front center............. No
Rear left/right.......... No
Rear center.............. No
Front left/right center.. No
Rear left/right center... No
Rear LFE................. No

CE vendor specific data (VSDB)
IEEE registration number. 0x000C03
CEC physical address..... 1.0.0.0
Supports AI (ACP, ISRC).. No
Supports 48bpp........... No
Supports 36bpp........... Yes
Supports 30bpp........... Yes
Supports YCbCr 4:4:4..... Yes
Supports dual-link DVI... No
Maximum TMDS clock....... 225MHz
Video latency (p)........ 181ms
Audio latency (p)........ 181ms
Audio/video latency (i).. n/a
HDMI video capabilities.. Yes
EDID screen size......... Rounded to nearest cm
3D structures supported.. Top-and-bottom, Side-by-side w. horizontal sub-sampling
3D formats supported..... Mandatory formats plus some primary VICs
1920 x 1080p at 60Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1920 x 1080p at 50Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1920 x 1080p at 24Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1920 x 1080p at 30Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1920 x 1080p at 25Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1920 x 1080i at 60Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1920 x 1080i at 50Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1280 x 720p at 60Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
1280 x 720p at 50Hz - HDTV (16:9, 1:1)
NB: NTSC refresh rate = (Hz*1000)/1001
Data payload............. 030C001000382DAF5B5BD004014001FF

CE colorimetry data
xvYCC709 support......... Yes
xvYCC601 support......... Yes
sYCC601 support.......... No
AdobeYCC601 support...... No
AdobeRGB support......... No
Metadata profile flags... 0x01

Report information
Date generated........... 15/05/2015
Software revision........ 2.90.0.1000
Data source.............. Real-time 0x0071
Operating system......... 6.1.7601.2.Service Pack 1

Raw data
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0F,4A,4C,21,08,00,B3,00,95,00,A9,40,90,40,81,00,81,80,81,40,01,01,02,3A,80,18,71,38,2D,40,58,2C,
45,00,00,D0,52,00,00,1E,02,3A,80,D0,72,38,2D,40,10,2C,45,80,00,D0,52,00,00,1E,00,00,00,FC,00,50,
68,69,6C,69,70,73,20,46,54,56,0A,20,00,00,00,FD,00,30,3E,0F,46,11,00,0A,20,20,20,20,20,20,01,F0,
02,03,37,F1,52,10,1F,20,22,21,05,14,04,13,12,03,11,02,16,07,15,06,01,26,09,1F,07,15,07,50,83,01,
00,00,70,03,0C,00,10,00,38,2D,AF,5B,5B,D0,04,01,40,01,FF,E3,05,03,01,01,1D,80,3E,73,38,2D,40,7E,
2C,45,80,00,D0,52,00,00,1E,01,1D,80,D0,72,1C,16,20,10,2C,25,80,00,D0,52,00,00,9E,01,1D,00,BC,52,
D0,1E,20,B8,28,55,40,00,D0,52,00,00,1E,01,1D,80,18,71,1C,16,20,58,2C,25,00,00,D0,52,00,00,9E,78

---------------------------

Hardware data
BUS_SLOT = PCI00000.PCI00004.PCI00008.PCI0000C.PCI00010.PCI00014.PCI00018.PCI0001C
00000000 = 01508086.20900006.06000009.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000
00000008 = 01518086.00100007.06040009.00810010.00000000.00000000.00010100.2000E0E0
000000A0 = 1E318086.02900406.0C033004.00000000.F7320004.00000000.00000000.00000000
000000B0 = 1E3A8086.00100400.07800004.00800000.F7337004.00000000.00000000.00000000
000000C8 = 15038086.00100406.02000004.00000000.F7300000.F7335000.00000001.00000000
000000D0 = 1E2D8086.02900006.0C032004.00000000.F7334000.00000000.00000000.00000000
000000E0 = 1E108086.00100006.060400C4.00810010.00000000.00000000.00020200.200000F0
000000E4 = 244E8086.00100007.060401C4.00810010.00000000.00000000.00040300.200000F0
000000E7 = 1E1E8086.00100006.060400C4.00810010.00000000.00000000.00050500.200000F0
000000E8 = 1E268086.02900006.0C032004.00000000.F7333000.00000000.00000000.00000000
000000F8 = 1E448086.02100007.06010004.00800000.00000000.00000000.00000000.00000000
000000FA = 28228086.02B00407.01040004.00000000.0000F091.0000F081.0000F071.0000F061
000000FB = 1E228086.02800003.0C050004.00000000.F7331004.00000000.00000000.00000000
00000100 = 13C210DE.00100007.030000A1.00800010.F6000000.E000000C.00000000.F000000C
00000101 = 0FBB10DE.00100006.040300A1.00800010.F7080000.00000000.00000000.00000000
00000200 = 00121102.00100006.04030001.00000010.F7204004.00000000.F7200004.00000000
00000300 = 10801B21.00100007.06040103.00010010.00000000.00000000.20040403.202001F1
00000500 = 10421B21.00100406.0C033000.00000010.F7100004.00000000.00000000.00000000
--------
01070000 = 00FFFFFF.FFFFFF00.410C0000.01010101.12160103.80583178.0AE692A3.544A9926
00000020 = 0F4A4C21.0800B300.9500A940.90408100.81808140.0101023A.80187138.2D40582C
00000040 = 450000D0.5200001E.023A80D0.72382D40.102C4580.00D05200.001E0000.00FC0050
00000060 = 68696C69.70732046.54560A20.000000FD.00303E0F.4611000A.20202020.202001F0
01070100 = 020337F1.52101F20.22210514.04131203.11021607.15060126.091F0715.07508301
00000020 = 00007003.0C001000.382DAF5B.5BD00401.4001FFE3.05030101.1D803E73.382D407E
00000040 = 2C458000.D0520000.1E011D80.D0721C16.20102C25.8000D052.00009E01.1D00BC52
00000060 = D01E20B8.28554000.D0520000.1E011D80.18711C16.20582C25.0000D052.00009E78



EDID revision............ 1.3
Input signal type........ Digital
Color bit depth.......... Undefined
Display type............. RGB color
Screen size.............. 880 x 490 mm (39.7 in)
Power management......... Not supported
Extension blocs.......... 1 (CEA-EXT)

CE colorimetry data
xvYCC709 support......... Yes
xvYCC601 support......... Yes


Supports 48bpp........... No
Supports 36bpp........... Yes
Supports 30bpp........... Yes
Supports YCbCr 4:4:4..... Yes
YCbCr 4:2:2.............. Supported

Color characteristics
Default color space...... Non-sRGB
Display gamma............ 2.20
Red chromaticity......... Rx 0.640 - Ry 0.330
Green chromaticity....... Gx 0.290 - Gy 0.600
Blue chromaticity........ Bx 0.150 - By 0.060
White point (default).... Wx 0.289 - Wy 0.299
Additional descriptors... None

Does it mean I can choose 10 bit ? Do I need a video that is 10 bit ? cause 8 bit still works the same and not RGB48.

the Color characteristics means I need to set it like that ?

http://i.imgur.com/fUo4HcU.png

[mhourousha]

no can be full range too. at least i'm pretty sure this is the case on my screen.
full range and limited range take the same bandwidth anyway.
it depends on gpu and display device.
for example,a playstation3(2006)can output 12bit full range through HDMI 1.3
and for my tv(a sony HX750),AMD card ouput bit depends on catalyst CC setting.NV card(a very old GT240) output 12bit in both 10bit/16bit D3D11 scan-out format.and Intel(HD4000) output 8bit in 10bit scan-out,and 12bit for 16bit scan-out format.
there is also a R10G10B10_XR_BIAS scan-out format mapping to xvYcc gamut.all 3 GPU above support that format but I can't comfirm if the HDMI signal is xvYcc.

[huhn]

it says my Tv 7007 support
...~...
Supports 48bpp........... No
Supports 36bpp........... Yes
Supports 30bpp........... Yes
Supports YCbCr 4:4:4..... Yes
YCbCr 4:2:2.............. Supported

Color characteristics
Default color space...... Non-sRGB
Display gamma............ 2.20
Red chromaticity......... Rx 0.640 - Ry 0.330
Green chromaticity....... Gx 0.290 - Gy 0.600
Blue chromaticity........ Bx 0.150 - By 0.060
White point (default).... Wx 0.289 - Wy 0.299
Additional descriptors... None

Does it mean I can choose 10 bit ? Do I need a video that is 10 bit ? cause 8 bit still works the same and not RGB48.
http://i.imgur.com/fUo4HcU.png
your TV supports 8, 10 and 12 bit input. this doesn't mean it can output 10 bit what so ever.
depending on how your TV handles these input bit deeps you can get a worse picture and unlikely a better picture.

you don't need 10 bit videos to make use of this.

the Color characteristics means I need to set it like that ?

if you have calibrated your TV to bt 709 gamma 2.2 yes. but without calibration your Tv is "something else".

but setting it to these settings shouldn't harm and most likely didn't change colors at all.

Does it mean I can choose 10 bit ? Do I need a video that is 10 bit ? cause 8 bit still works the same and not RGB48.

i don't get this part.

[x7007]

your TV supports 8, 10 and 12 bit input. this doesn't mean it can output 10 bit what so ever.
depending on how your TV handles these input bit deeps you can get a worse picture and unlikely a better picture.

you don't need 10 bit videos to make use of this.



if you have calibrated your TV to bt 709 gamma 2.2 yes. but without calibration your Tv is "something else".

but setting it to these settings shouldn't harm and most likely didn't change colors at all.



i don't get this part.


Thanks for answering !

How may I able to check the 8bit vs 10bit quality, I have no idea what to search or which file will show me the obvious different.

madshi said to be able to see the 10bit you need to select RGB48 in LAVFilter Video. I didn't understand that. cause even when I select it I only see NV12 8bit or YV12 8bit in CTRL + J on Bluray MKV movies.

[huhn]

Thanks for answering !

How may I able to check the 8bit vs 10bit quality, I have no idea what to search or which file will show me the obvious different.

madshi said to be able to see the 10bit you need to select RGB48 in LAVFilter Video. I didn't understand that. cause even when I select it I only see NV12 8bit or YV12 8bit in CTRL + J on Bluray MKV movies.
you need to enable RGB48 so lavfilter gives you the possibility to send 16 bit png to madVR and disable dithering to make the effect even more obvious. on a normal BD source this does nothing ok disabling dithering can have a huge effect.

look at the first post in this thread.

[baii]

There had not have any "proven" visual evidence or test that say 10bit(with or w/o dither) will look better than 8bit +dither even everything is working as intended.

Theoretically/ Mathematically, 10bit > 8bit but that's pretty much it for now.

[ryrynz]

There had not have any "proven" visual evidence or test that say 10bit(with or w/o dither) will look better than 8bit +dither even everything is working as intended.

Theoretically/ Mathematically, 10bit > 8bit but that's pretty much it for now.
You sure? Wasn't it James that showed otherwise?

[James Freeman]

You sure? Wasn't it James that showed otherwise?

baii is right, If one can't see it why is it better?
I myself can't see any difference between 10 vs 8+D at all.

As baii noted Theoretically/ Mathematically 10bit may have less error but it is on the edge of visibility anyway, therefor it has less importance with real content.
For now 8+d will do until HDR displays with 100,000:1 will come.

It's a fine line this 8 vs 10 bit discussion, why do you think 8bit lasted 30 years without much complaint?
Because its already almost enough with a revealing test pattern, but with real content (especially already dithered BluRay) it can be practically invisible.
10bit - 16bit is there in the Studio/Grading monitors so that no extra dithering is added, but I bet even for the trained eye 10 vs 8+d will be indistinguishable.

[aufkrawall]

Is there a way to be sure that the Nvidia driver doesn't do dithering?
I'm not seeing banding with my Qnix QX2710 (PLS panel, DL-DVI input without scaler).

How to prevent exiting FSE when the "video" is done with playing? Pressing space doesn't help.

[huhn]

Is there a way to be sure that the Nvidia driver doesn't do dithering?
I'm not seeing banding with my Qnix QX2710 (PLS panel, DL-DVI input without scaler).

How to prevent exiting FSE when the "video" is done with playing? Pressing space doesn't help.

input 10 bit in the driver and force nvidia to output 8 bit that's all.

[aufkrawall]

How can I do this, please? :)

[James Freeman]

Is there a way to be sure that the Nvidia driver doesn't do dithering?
I'm not seeing banding with my Qnix QX2710 (PLS panel, DL-DVI input without scaler).

Input a 10bit signal into a different monitor that you sure is only 8bit, you should see the gradient because Nvidia does not dither.
With windows 10 and latest driver keep the bit depth on 8bit (this is bypassed in FSE mode anyway).

AMD on the other hand always dither the image without a registry hack, an 8bit only monitor will look smooth with a 10bit signal because AMD already dithered it down to 8bit.
This is true if you leave the bit depth in the control panel on 8bit (I don't own an AMD card so I'm not sure about the name of the setting).

How to prevent exiting FSE when the "video" is done with playing? Pressing space doesn't help.
MPC-HC?
View->Options->Playback->After Playback->Do Nothing.

[aufkrawall]

Input a 10bit signal into a different monitor that you sure is only 8bit, you should see the gradient because Nvidia does not dither.
With windows 10 and latest driver keep the bit depth on 8bit (this is bypassed in FSE mode anyway).

Oh well, I'd have to get an old 19" from the attic...
With DVI, you don't have any input control regarding color depth in the control panel.

[huhn]

you don't need to do it this way.

you don't want to know if your display is 10 bit you want to know if nvidia is dithering right?

for this you just need to disable dithering in madVR look at the test picture in 8 bit and you must see clear banding.

install the newest nvidia driver for windows 10 (352.83 or something like that). this should be easy because you are on windows 10 right? you will find an option for bit deep in the same place you find an option for RGB, YCbCr and limited full range. set it to 8 bit.
after this use d3d11 10 bit mode and look at the picture if you see banding nvidia isn't dithering.

[aufkrawall]

you don't need to do it this way.

you don't want to know if your display is 10 bit you want to know if nvidia is dithering right?

for this you just need to disable dithering in madVR look at the test picture in 8 bit and you must see clear banding.

Yes, but maybe the driver does a conversion from 10 bit to 8 bit with dithering when I "try" to output 10 bit?


install the newest nvidia driver for windows 10 (352.83 or something like that). this should be easy because you are on windows 10 right? you will find an option for bit deep in the same place you find an option for RGB, YCbCr and limited full range. set it to 8 bit.
after this use d3d11 10 bit mode and look at the picture if you see banding nvidia isn't dithering.
As I said, there are no options for any of these when using DVI.

But how do you know if the signal is actually 10 bit (and probably converted to 8 bit in the monitor panel with dithering) or if it's just 8 bit, already dithered by the GPU?
In the end, couldn't those bit depth settings just be dither options?

[huhn]

Yes, but maybe the driver does a conversion from 10 bit to 8 bit with dithering when I "try" to output 10 bit?

than this option would be useless and there is no reason for this option in the first place.

As I said, there are no options for any of these when using DVI.
i have this option with DVI.
http://abload.de/img/dvihru0n.png
if your display doesn't support 10/12 bit input you can't test it anyway.
But how do you know if the signal is actually 10 bit (and probably converted to 8 bit in the monitor panel with dithering) or if it's just 8 bit, already dithered by the GPU?
In the end, couldn't those bit depth settings just be dither options?

they should be dithering to the selected output bit deep.
but James freeman said they are not dithering.
i my test this may self later.

i know it for AMD for sure the only thing i don't know for sure is if my display is 10 bit or dithering. ok it is dithering but i can't say this for sure.

[iSunrise]

baii is right...
You always want to be as close to madVR's 16fp output as possible, irregardless of whether you might see differences with one setup. Secondly, only if we currectly had screens cheap enough, who would accept such a high bitdepth, we could forget about anything else like dithering and be safe.

Since that isn't the case, everyone should enable 10bit if performance and compatibility permits and there aren't any drawbacks like displays or display firmware that behave strangely with such a bitdepth. That's why everyone needs to test this for themselves.

Don't forget that each post-processing step incuded with madVR, irregardless of it's precision, will always alter the input and so you always want the highest possible bitdepth at every stage you can get. There's a rule in the audio world which also applies here. Always use the highest bitdepth possible, especially when you're post-processing, because every step has the potential to degrade your final result. Technically, if we would really be anal about this, every step you post-process does degrade the image. It is however, when handled properly, hardly (if at all) recognizable.

Therefore, everyone should be advised to keep on testing and shouldn't just "assume" that something couldn't be better, just because you cannot see it. Our eyes are quite limited, some things are hard to catch. Also, our displays are limited, so there's might be differences, but the display is unable to show them (for whatever reason there may be).

If performance is an issue, however, it probably does make sense to lower quality first in areas where you cannot recognize changes, but if there's no limitation, always try to output with max. bitdepth and dithering (if something else doesn't dither, this will greatly improve quality, too). ONLY disable dithering, when input and output = same bitdepth.

It's pretty simple, really.

[huhn]

first of all you win nothing if you feed a 8 bit panel 10 bit that doesn't even use dither.

the only case where dither isn't need is 16 bit output because madVR doesn't store result higher.

and the next most important thing is if you don't see a difference between 8 and 10 bit output 8 bit is a lot safer so why bother with something like that.

[Warner306]

I notice ReClock reports 12 bit output when I bring up the filter during playback. Is this confirmation the TV is receiving this output?

I was able to determine my TV is 12-bit by viewing its parts page. Under Specifications, the gradations of colors was listed.

[huhn]

I notice ReClock reports 12 bit output when I bring up the filter during playback. Is this confirmation the TV is receiving this output?

I was able to determine my TV is 12-bit by viewing its parts page. Under Specifications, the gradations of colors was listed.

nearly all TV support 12 bit input. but where do you see this information in reclock?

AMD send 10 bit by default and nvidia 8 bit without 10 bit input and 12 with 10 bit input.

[Warner306]

ReClock is reporting 12-bit input, not output. My bad.

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Warner306/Kodi%20Illustrations/ReClock_zpsbopcrfim.png