View Full Version : [MadVr] MadVR "RGB Output Levels". TV "Video Mode", and Nvidia "Dynamic Range".
paulescobar
25th April 2015, 00:32
Hardware:
TV: Hannspree ST558MUR 55" LCD HDTV
Graphics Card: Zotac GeForce GTX 770 ZT-70311-10P
Background:
MadVR has an option called "the display expects the following RGB output levels".
My TV has two modes called "PC Mode" & "Video Mode".
My Nvidia graphics card has an option called "Display > Adjust Desktop Color Settings > Digital Color Format (RGB or YCBCR444) & Dynamic Range (Full or Limited)"
Problem:
As I understand it, if I wish to operate an HTPC (rather than gaming or application PC)...I should set my TV to "Video Mode" for color accuracy.
Today is the first day I experimented with this, and I'm not sure I really saw anything different...except for the ability to use my TV Menu's color/sharpness/noise settings to influence the picture on screen. But I digress...
What seems to truly affect the color of my videos are the MadVR & Nvidia options described above.
My original thought was that I should set NVidia to "Limited" & MadVR to "TV Levels 16-235". The thinking was that this would replicate television. But it looks terribly pale and almost grey.
Back when I was in "PC Mode" on my TV...I had set NVidia to "Full" & MadVR to "PC Levels 0-255". Even on TV "Video Mode"...this setting looks a bit too rich & dark. For example, white skin looks almost orange & it's hard to discern folds in black clothing.
If I set Nvidia to "Full" & MadVR to "TV Levels 16-235"...I find it seems slightly pale (but not too much)...and probably looks the best out of the three combinations.
Question:
I guess my main concern is...even though the setting of "Nvidia Full & MadVR TV Levels" looks decent to me...aren't these two settings performing conflicting tasks & just messing with the colors?
Ideally, I'd like to get color accuracy.
So if you can advise me on how I should set the three components (TV, Nvidia, MadVR) to achieve such a thing...it would be really appreciated.
huhn
25th April 2015, 00:49
here load this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9FgjTtNzSy0dTZwZ3p1eGVnTG8/edit
these are test files.
you can use the 1-black clipping test file to check if your TV supports full range or only TV range.
for this test you leave madVR at full range 0-255 and just switch in the GPU driver between full or limited range.
using madVR at limited range and the GPU at limited is always wrong.
for correct color you will need at colorimeter.
paulescobar
25th April 2015, 04:09
you can use the 1-black clipping test file to check if your TV supports full range or only TV range.
for this test you leave madVR at full range 0-255 and just switch in the GPU driver between full or limited range.
I performed this test as you instructed.
When I set Nvidia to "RGB Full", there were very dim flashes.
When I set Nvidia to "RGB Limited", I saw very clear flashes.
for correct color you will need at colorimeter.
Yikes! That looks way beyond my pay-grade lol!
Could I settle for setting those TV/Nvidia/MadVr color options as best as possible?
QBhd
25th April 2015, 05:23
For testing a TV's limited/full range, I suggest using images in a browser or image viewer... Put the GPU into, full... then view the images on the TV. This will bypass anything madVR does and tell you what your TV can do. Then when you have that sorted out, use the test video files with madVR to make sure all is Kosher on that end.
QB
paulescobar
25th April 2015, 12:16
On a whim...I decided to perform a "Recall" (this seems to mean setting reset on my TV).
As far as I can tell, what the reset changed is the brightness, contrast, and backlight setting of my TV.
For some reason, I had set them to 48/100 Brightness, 100/100 Contrast, and 2/10 Backlight.
The resetted settings are 50/100 Brightness, 50/100 Contrast, and 4/10 Backlight.
Maybe something else was affected, but I can't tell.
This greatly improved my perception of a combination I previously dismissed (NVidia "Full" & MadVR "PC Levels 0-255").
It looks more balanced now, and not so dark.
I will use it as my default.
The setting I previously thought looked good (Nvidia "Full" & MadVR "TV Levels 16-235")...now looks greatly faded and unappealing.
..........
Also, something strange...
I was not aware of this before, but Nvidia has a video-only dynamic range setting.
Hence, my desktop could be left at full...while video would be limited.
But no matter what, MadVR disregards the video-only settings of Nvidia.
I can set the video-only setting to full or limited, but MadVR shows the same picture regardless.
I also tested by changing the video-only saturation setting...and again, MadVR disregards Nvidia.
So while MadVR respects the desktop Nvidia desktop settings, it seems to disregard the Nvidia video-only settings.
huhn
25th April 2015, 12:49
Also, something strange...
I was not aware of this before, but Nvidia has a video-only dynamic range setting.
Hence, my desktop could be left at full...while video would be limited.
But no matter what, MadVR disregards the video-only settings of Nvidia.
I can set the video-only setting to full or limited, but MadVR shows the same picture regardless.
I also tested by changing the video-only saturation setting...and again, MadVR disregards Nvidia.
So while MadVR respects the desktop Nvidia desktop settings, it seems to disregard the Nvidia video-only settings.
of course madVR avoids the damaging algorithm from the GPU.
but madVR can't avoid what the GPU is finally outputting. madVR can't change if the GPU is outputting full range RGB, limited range RGB, 4:4:4 YCbCr, 4:2:2 YCbCr or 4:2:0 YCbCr.
and you should really check your screen for range output and judge on that.
and when ysou are already at that point check if your display supports 4:4:4: http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png
PC mode may help for this.
stvnsgl
16th May 2015, 21:28
I have had 2 nvidia cards 8800 gts 512 and now I have GTX 750 ti both have been outputting wrong colors/colorspace on default from DVI/HDMI out. This can be fixed disabling yuv-rgb hw conversion in VLC settings for example.
Personally I use Potplayer only way to fix the issue I have found is to make CUDA to decode the video and force RGB 32 as output colorspace.
Nvidia control panel set to RGB FULL, madVR 0-255. Samsung 1080p tv that accepts full rgb signal 'normal' from hdmi settings.
Asmodian
17th May 2015, 13:03
What do you mean by "wrong colors/colorspace on default"? Recently Nvidia added the desktop range option but before that they would only send limited when on HDMI, madshi even made a utility to fix it. Other than that I don't know of any issues?
I have a colorimeter and have measured the colors (setting up a display for calibration and verifying calibrations) with madVR on a variety of devices connected to various Nvidia and AMD cards with both DVI/HDMI and I generally find the colors correct if everything is set up as you state. I almost always use RGB (0-255), madVR 0-255 if the TV works at full range, this allows the desktop to be correct as well. I have had TVs that didn't like full range though. Of course a lot of TVs don't keep it RGB but I have never found sending them RGB to be worse than sending them 4:2:2.
I have used MPC-HC and Zoom Player, LAV with software decoding, and madVR. Win 7 & 8.1 x64. An i1d3 and HCFR to take measurements.
What do you mean by "wrong colors/colorspace on default"? Recently Nvidia added the desktop range option but before that they would only send limited when on HDMI, madshi even made a utility to fix it. Other than that I don't know of any issues?
it's not like nvidia was always sending limited range. a PC display connected with hdmi got unlimited range by default.
nvidia just used the default from the EDID. nearly all TV need limited range at default settings so this was used.
stvnsgl
17th May 2015, 13:27
let me show you an example:
video source: http://i.imgur.com/QYLU9qd.jpg
hw yuv-rgb enabled in VLC: http://i.imgur.com/qaD1W1r.jpg
You can clearly see it ouputs wrong colors. This happened on my old card via both DVI to monitor and HDMI to tv as it does with the new GTX 750 Ti. I have asked people on irc with ATI (AMD) cards to see what output they get and they have exact match to the video source. Without using CUDA in Potplayer and forced RGB 32 output people look orange/yellow like the first poster mentioned.
heres another example off the color shift:
source:
http://i.imgur.com/ncxzday.jpg
potplayer auto colorspace (selects yuy2):
http://i.imgur.com/t7tb01e.jpg
potplayer with rgb 32 output:
http://i.imgur.com/drfVP12.jpg
this thread is about madVR. madVR doesn't use wrong colorspace conversations.
and you are aware that all picture you post here are RGB and jpg...?
you just change the place where the YCbCr->RGB conversation is done that's it. a correct conversation should be based on the source colorspace and output colorspace of the end device.
this topic is about levels and TV setups.
stvnsgl
17th May 2015, 14:37
I use madvr with Potplayer only way to get right colors is to use CUDA and RGB 32 output from potplayer how many times does this have to be said? In MPC-HC i couldnt even get exact color match to the source. Tried all YCbCr->RGB settings in pot too. But whatever I'll shut up just tried to help the original poster. There must be millions of people with nvidia cards watching their videos with wrong colors and he was one of the few that noticed it. He wanted color accuracy I told him how to get it and you start to complain about my screenies being jpg? If they were png or bmp you would still see the colors are off.
the "cuda" decoder CUVID outputs a bit identical picture as software or DXVA decoder if this isn't the case one or the other is buggy.
one of the pictures uses bt 601 and the other bt 709 for YCbCr->RGB a BD soruce needs bt 709 and a SD source needs BT 601.
and the topic was ranges:
correct range limited as limited: http://abload.de/img/normalrangevpon0.png
limited range treated as unlimited: http://abload.de/img/limitedaspcrangeurppj.png
unlimited range treated as limited range: http://abload.de/img/unlimitedaslimiteduwqj9.png
stvnsgl
17th May 2015, 15:27
the topic might've been ranges but the op stated at the end:
'Ideally, I'd like to get color accuracy.'
And if something is buggy its nvidia. Just tried latest MPC-HC x64 internal decoder: gives wrong colors with software decoding, cuvid and dxva2 native and rgb 32 output forcing didnt work either. With all these settings everyone looked like they had a major case of hep c.
the topic might've been ranges but the op stated at the end:
'Ideally, I'd like to get color accuracy.'
And if something is buggy its nvidia. Just tried latest MPC-HC x64 internal decoder: gives wrong colors with software decoding, cuvid and dxva2 native and rgb 32 output forcing didnt work either. With all these settings everyone looked like they had a major case of hep c.
and you have verified that with a calibrated screen and a proper source?
if yes feel free to report that to nev in the lav filter thread here on doom9.
can you please try the madVR setting device-> "your device name" -> calibration -> this display is already calibrated and switch between smpte C and bt 709?
edit: try control+alt+shift+p the device options take quite some time to change the picture you need to use this display is already calibrated to make the option available
sorry this should work better.
stvnsgl
17th May 2015, 15:54
and you have verified that with a calibrated screen and a proper source?
if yes feel free to report that to nev in the lav filter thread here on doom9.
can you please try the madVR setting device-> "your device name" -> calibration -> this display is already calibrated and switch between smpte C and bt 709?
colors look slighty more vivid from switching bt 709 to smpte c but they're still off doesnt fix anything let me show u screenies from source, mpc and pot:
source (http://i.imgur.com/nCwlLLa.jpg)
mpc (http://i.imgur.com/T0yyd1f.jpg)
potplayer (http://i.imgur.com/uDVVLsf.jpg)
colors look slighty more vivid from switching bt 709 to smpte c but they're still off doesnt fix anything let me show u screenies from source, mpc and pot:
source (http://i.imgur.com/nCwlLLa.jpg)
mpc (http://i.imgur.com/T0yyd1f.jpg)
potplayer (http://i.imgur.com/uDVVLsf.jpg)
can you read my edit please. the switch between smpte C and bt709 takes ages for me the way i told you to check.
BTW. on my calibrated screen the mpc picture looks more correct. but i can't say for sure.
but i don't know what the source primaries are and how it should look. or is this supposed to be a serious sunburn?
and how did you made the "source" screen.
stvnsgl
17th May 2015, 16:39
video->capture->save current source frame as... in potplayer. its 1080p scene bluray encode of mad men s07e01 bt.709
it cant be so that i should play all my videos with yellow/orange tint on everyones faces looking like they got hep-c instead of 1:1 color match from the source? :D
that family guy screen for example from before a fella with ati(amd) got exact same colors as source so its obviously something thats been wrong with nvidia for ages
video->capture->save current source frame as... in potplayer. its 1080p scene bluray encode of mad men s07e01 bt.709
it cant be so that i should play all my videos with yellow/orange tint on everyones faces looking like they got hep-c instead of 1:1 color match from the source? :D
the pot player save screen option is worthless it just takes the playback screen and saves it.
i guess your problem is that your screen isn't displaying BT 709 correctly and it's more like bt 601. if your screen is uncalibrated tthis si totally normal and even with that RGB thing you don't have accurate colors just colors you like more.
don't forget this is maybe the case with your screen that doesn't it's the general case!
set madVR to smpte C and it should look like the RGB thing from potplayer.
btw. the fact that potplayers RGB output looks different from ny12 is a bug in potplayer.
Do you use 3dlut in madvr?
I mean you can just throw a image into either player and manually pick/toggle the primaries you want using keyboard shortcut from madvr, then cap the results. Then you can compare the image to result from other color conversion engine say photoshop etc.
If the problem is limtied vs full range then this probably wont work, but that seems not to be the problem here?
potplayer processing should not have any effect if you are using madvr.
So you don't really need to have anything calibrated to test if the conversion is doing it right.
stvnsgl
17th May 2015, 17:01
the pot player save screen option is worthless it just takes the playback screen and saves it.
i guess your problem is that your screen isn't displaying BT 709 correctly and it's more like bt 601. if your screen is uncalibrated tthis si totally normal and even with that RGB thing you don't have accurate colors just colors you like more.
don't forget this is maybe the case with your screen that doesn't it's the general case!
set madVR to smpte C and it should look like the RGB thing from potplayer.
btw. the fact that potplayers RGB output looks different from ny12 is a bug in potplayer.
theres two options: save source frame or current screen fame. so you are wrong on that.
if the bt 601/709 error is the case i have this problem on my pc monitor via dvi and tv with hdmi (both nvidia cards i've had) yet the vga output looks exactly the same as does the picture on my monitor/tv when i disable hw rgb-yuv in vlc or force rgb32 out of pot.
setting madvr to smpte c and playing video with mpc-hc doesnt look anything like rgb32 does on potplayer.
Do you use 3dlut in madvr?
I mean you can just throw a image into either player and manually pick/toggle the primaries you want using keyboard shortcut from madvr, then cap the results. Then you can compare the image to result from other color conversion engine say photoshop etc.
If the problem is limtied vs full range then this probably wont work, but that seems not to be the problem here?
potplayer processing should not have any effect if you are using madvr.
the problem is that forced RGB with "CUDA" CUVID (not sure if it is limited to this) looks different than normal output.
and that's for sure a bug in potplayer.
i guess it is just using blind bt 601 here.
and i'm not putting any time in this player to find out what is wrong.
just as a reminder:
- This software includes a video decoder based on FFmpeg (http://www.ffmpeg.org) which is licensed under LGPL license.(To review the LGPL license, look for LGPL.txt in install directory) The modified FFmpeg source can be downloaded from http://potplayer.daum.net/devel/ffmpeg.zip.
dfsgsfg doesn't sound as a modified ffmepg source to me...
So you don't really need to have anything calibrated~
what? how do you get accurate color than?
theres two options: save source frame or current screen fame. so you are wrong on that.
if the bt 601/709 error is the case i have this problem on my pc monitor via dvi and tv with hdmi (both nvidia cards i've had) yet the vga output looks exactly the same as does the picture on my monitor/tv when i disable hw rgb-yuv in vlc or force rgb32 out of pot.
setting madvr to smpte c and playing video with mpc-hc doesnt look anything like rgb32 does on potplayer.
restart the player it take time to take effect.
is the source encoded to SD and not flagged as bt 709?
the problem could be even worse.
stvnsgl
17th May 2015, 17:10
Do you use 3dlut in madvr?
I mean you can just throw a image into either player and manually pick/toggle the primaries you want using keyboard shortcut from madvr, then cap the results. Then you can compare the image to result from other color conversion engine say photoshop etc.
If the problem is limtied vs full range then this probably wont work, but that seems not to be the problem here?
potplayer processing should not have any effect if you are using madvr.
So you don't really need to have anything calibrated to test if the conversion is doing it right.
i dont use 3dlut i've disabled the calibration option.
i dont think i have any problem to be honest i get right colors from vlc disabling yuv-rgb conversion and same thing in potplayer using opencodec cuda with rgb32 output and madvr. if these two settings result in exact same colors than people get with radeon cards why couldnt it be right? anyway i've given a link to my settings in pm to the original poster he can check them out to see if he gets what he is after.
one thing for sure is that the next gfx card i get wont be nvidia :D
years ago before i found madvr i used to use coreavc with haali in mpc-hc that gave me same match to vlc with disabled hw-yuv conversion.
stvnsgl
17th May 2015, 17:12
restart the player it take time to take effect.
is the source encoded to SD and not flagged as bt 709?
the problem could be even worse.
1080p .mkv
i dont use 3dlut i've disabled the calibration option.
i dont think i have any problem to be honest i get right colors from vlc disabling yuv-rgb conversion and same thing in potplayer using opencodec cuda with rgb32 output and madvr. if these two settings result in exact same colors than people get with radeon cards why couldnt it be right? anyway i've given a link to my settings in pm to the original poster he can check them out to see if he gets what he is after.
one thing for sure is that the next gfx card i get wont be nvidia :D
years ago before i found madvr i used to use coreavc with haali in mpc-hc that gave me same match to vlc with disabled hw-yuv conversion.
and why does the mpc picture look correct on my calibrated TV?
theres two options: save source frame or current screen fame. so you are wrong on that.
and what colorspace conversation does it use? do you see the issue?
on a proper source you take the source have a look at it and use the flagged colorspace.
stvnsgl
20th May 2015, 11:55
nevermind
Akeno
19th July 2015, 22:34
here load this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9FgjTtNzSy0dTZwZ3p1eGVnTG8/edit
these are test files.
you can use the 1-black clipping test file to check if your TV supports full range or only TV range.
for this test you leave madVR at full range 0-255 and just switch in the GPU driver between full or limited range.
using madVR at limited range and the GPU at limited is always wrong.
Using the test videos and setting the output bitdepth to 1bit to clearly see the bars with dithering, I determined that madVR was best set to PC Levels for my monitor. Graphics settings did not affect madVR output at all.
On the other hand, playing the videos in Chrome, I found that the Full Range setting in the settings produced different results and setting it back to limited produced what I saw in madVR. The "Use application settings" button seemed to use limited range as well. Strangely enough, I only saw a difference in Chrome with the test videos. None of the settings seem to apply to normal videos loaded into Chrome whether it be from my hard drive or in streaming.
huhn
20th July 2015, 01:12
why do you even tried 1 bit? even a screen that is clipping some levels will still show the dither noise
this test is very simple.
just set everything to full range/0-255.
look at this picture.
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php
if your TV doesn't have an option for full range it is limited range. at default it simply has to think everything it is limited range.
can you see at least the difference between 6 and 7(on an perfect calibrated screen you can easily see the difference between 1 and 2) your screen is full range. if not your screen is limited range or not setup properly.
madVR should be full range/0-255 even if the display is limited range there is only one case where is makes sense to set madVR to 16-235 and by that you ruin everything that isn't displayed by madVR. use the GPU driver to switch to limited range if you care about other things too.
tried the chrome "player" showed the same result.
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