OGG 5.1 How would you play it?

[oddball]

I heard about probable support for the ability to have 5.1 OGG audio. The thing is. How would you play it back as 5.1 surround sound? I know that I can get AC3 output from my SPDIF to my AC3 decoder/amplifier. But there would be no way to get that to output if it was in OGG format. Or are we talking about the people who have 5.1 surround sound speaker systems on their PC's? In essence sending those 5.1 channels to the PC speakers via the soundcard somehow?

[BlackSun]

Not yet, but Tobias will work on this when the file splitter will be done.

[oddball]

Not yet to which aspect? Will there be some kind of transcoder for SPDIF out (That would require a realtime AC3 encoder which is doubtfull)? I have the feeling that only people with 5.1 PC speaker systems would benefit from such a setup. In which case I would prefer people stuck to 5.1 AC3 streams where possible. I can see the benefit of OGG stereo and multichannel support for things like multiple languages/commentaries etc. But not on the surround sound side of things purely because of the hardware support.

[sibe]

The way I see it you would need a 5.1 soundcard with 6ch output and corresponding speakers/amp with 6ch input. If you connect your Dolby Digital amp via SPDIF it will only understand ...well, Dolby Digital (or of course stereo/surround encoded strereo, but we're talking about 5.1), which 5.1 OGG is clearly not.
A realtime AC3 encoder might work, but I think that such a thing doesn't yet exist and even if it would, it would probably need more cpu power than any current PCs can deliver.

Sibe

[Doom9]

r/t ac3 encoding should be possible with the nvidia nforce 420D chipset.. but I've never seen it tested. In fact it's a shame how one of the most interesting features of that chipset goes almost comletely unnoticed. But.. it's true.. if you need spdif output you must keep AC3.. mc ogg is intended only for people who have multichannel output via analogue connectors. But.. I guess not so far in the future most PCs will have that.. just look at the increasing number of 6 channel audio solutions on MBs.. they may not be high quality but they're there anyways. And I have a stereo with 5.1 input but no spdif input.. so I wouldn't object to a lower bitrate 5.0 or 4.0 ogg file instead of an ac3.

[ChristianHJW]

I agree here ( well .. with all posting here :D ) ... if you want 5.1 via SPDIF you have to stick with AC3 for now.

But let me bring up an advantage of Vorbis 5.1, even if we have to fiddle around with the 5.1 analog outputs :

If we get Vorbis 5.1 t move we will finally be masters of the freakin DirectShowFilter problem again, and i think this i something pretty annoying for AC3 now. Dont forget, Vorbis is GPL and we can do eveything with it we want !

Is anybody reading here who was finally able to get AC3 SPDIF out on WinXP ? What player ? What DirectShowFilter ? Soundcard and driver ?

I bet only 1 of 10 combinations is working on WinXP for now ....

[DarkAvenger]

What you guys must achive, after vorbis is ready, make the a/v hardware manufacturers include vorbis support into their amps! Then some experts need to find out how to push vorbis over sp/dif, but I guess that is not a big problem, as you just have to nest it into a wav file, just like ac3. The problem is only VBR. Or you need a manufacturer who makes a external HQ vorbis decoder with 6analog outs and digital vorbis in (vorbis over sp/dif). This will be better then souncard out, but yet not as good as native vorbis decoding my amps. Nevertheless a good interims solution. So who is up to the task of informing manufacturers of the future? :)

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW

Is anybody reading here who was finally able to get AC3 SPDIF out on WinXP ? What player ? What DirectShowFilter ? Soundcard and driver ?

I bet only 1 of 10 combinations is working on WinXP for now ....
Chris,

I've got 3 different XP systems here and have had no problems whatsoever getting SPDIF to work. My key ingredient is a Zoltrix Nightingale sound card though. Tried 2 flavors of the SoundBlaster and neither worked on any system I had.

I can use ZoomPlayer, BSPlayer or PD 3.12 (and PD4a8). I'm using the filters from Tsunami's 3.91 pack. I suspect your problem might be your sound card.

EDIT- The Nightingale card has both 5.1 analog outputs, coax and optical out. Playing the 5.1 Vorbis files on either port still results in the same effect(dialog on all right channels).

[Taric25]

Originally posted by DarkAvenger
What you guys must achive, after vorbis is ready, make the a/v hardware manufacturers include vorbis support into their amps!

Ha! Doubtful. Can you imagine the hassle of having DD, DTS, and Ogg on DVD?! 1/20 DVDs I rent/own has DTS on it. Even when DTS is selected on DVDs a warning message is brought up saying that you have to have a DTS compatible DVD player and decoder. Dolby 5.1 is the standard and IMHO I doubt that a day will come when Ogg will also be a standard. Just look at MPEG-2 or AAC: they're RARELY used.

As for Ogg mutlichannel, don't forget about 5.1 EX, 6.1, or 7.1. How will those be played even on PCs?

[MaTTeR]

@Taric25

Why not have an Ogg stream on a DVD? I mean a nice high quality 2/0 stream would only be about a 70MB file. A 5.1 file could be around 250MB. This is very little space on a DVD. Techinally, I don't seen any reason why it couldn't be included. I've been hearing the dooms day argument against DTS for 6 months now and yet more and more DVD's are coming out with it. Of course 1/10 DVD's have DTS. Why would you waste time encoding audio to DTS on a movie like "Something About Mary"?

Once you listen to a DTS track and then compare it to 5.1 you hear the difference and then understand why the industry will continue to develop action packed DTS DVD's;)

[ChristianHJW]

tarc25, DA was not talking about exclusive Vorbis support in the amps but in addition to the existing AC3 and/or DTTS support they already have ...

[MaTTeR]

During my MC Ogg tests yesterday I discovered that I get the same speaker mapping either from my 5.1 analog outputs or my optical SPDIF. I found this pretty interesting as I assumed MC Ogg would only be mapped properly using the seperate 5.1 analogs.

This is really good news as I think most of us would prefer optical over analog:)

EDIT- To make it clear though...the DSF is still mapping the dialog to the wrong speakers. Doesn't matter if it's SPDIF or Analog.

[sibe]

@MaTTer

Just curious: how did you get to play 5.1 OGG via SPDIF? What did you connect your soundcard to?

Sibe

[MaTTeR]

@sibe

I'm playing the 5.1 clips with WinAmp3 and 2.78. I only use the Optical outputs on my soundcard unless I'm forced to use the analog ports for some reason.

[sibe]

I rather wanted to know what kind of amp you connect your soundcard to that can understand digital 5.1 OGG. Sorry for not beeing that clear before.

Sibe

[MaTTeR]

I have a Sony 675 DD/DTS amp. The sound card I'm using is a Zoltrix Nightingale, which is key;)

[oddball]

I cannot see how he would get MC OGG via digi out to 5.1 channels on the receiver (Except 5.1 analog outs to 5.1 analog ins on the reciever). My guess is he is just sending the standard 2.0 stereo PCM via digi out to the reciever and getting standard DPL surround decoded from it on the reciever.

[ChristianHJW]

Matter, i am confused also :confused: ...

5.1 PCM via SPDIF ? Never heard of it, but i dont want to say its impossible. SPDIF was designed as a studio link also in the beginning ( but never made its way i guess ) and i seem to remember the standard will support more than two PCM streams ... but i had no idea modern soundcards would support this for output and surround receivers to understand it ... maybe oddball is correct and this is the downmixed DPL via Stereo out ?? But who is doing the downmixing then ?? The DSF ?? Soundcard ?? Remember, this is a directly transcoded 5.1 from AC3, so there is no DPL information in the L and R channels .... :confused: :confused:

[sibe]

That's why I asked, too. I don't think any DD amp can understand MC OGG sent via SPDIF, because it doesn't have a built in OGG Vorbis decoder, which would be needed for this. That you hear sound when doing so doesn't necessarily mean it's working correctly. I, too, suppose that the 5.1 OGG track is decoded by the software OGG Vorbis decoder and then sent as (maybe surround encoded) 2.0 via SPDIF.
Anyone to verify this?

Sibe

[MaTTeR]

Sorry guys, I should have been a little more clear.

My testing of MC Ogg files begins using the 5.1 analog outputs from the Nightingale sound card and into the Sony's 5.1/MC inputs. This way I know if the Ogg file is mapping the channels correctly.

However, over the weekend I decided to try the SPDIF and play around with my amp settings as well. The Sony 675 has a feature called A.F.D(Auto Format Detect) and when I have this set, then play a MC Ogg, the amp turns on a "Normal surround mode". What is this mode? I have no idea to be honest, I've been looking for documentation. I suspect the amp is using DPL or some sort of pseudo surround mode:) My point is that when I use this method it still sounds the same(dialog=RF & RS) as when I use the "proper" analog multi-channel mode. So I'm hoping that when Tobias gets the DSF worked out I'll still be able to use this SPDIF/A.F.D mode.

[oddball]

As suspected it's just using the 2.0 stereo signal and decoding DPL.

[DarkAvenger]

I once had one of these crappy sony amps (is yours from the "str" series? If yes, it *is* crap considering quality and sound, and I pity you. ;) I am so happy that I now have a "real" amp: Denon AVR 1801, not high end, but at least decent sounding in contrast to Sony. I was "lucky" that my Sony amp went defective after 3month and they didn't got it repaired within 3weeks, so I got my money back...) When I remember correctly, the amp tries to find out whether it is a stereo signal or DS encoded and switches to either stereo or DPL, but I may be mistaken. Uhh, what is RF and RS? R and SR? That would be very strange. It might be that on spdif your soundcard downmixes and the Sony does decode it via DPL. Have you listened to the rear channels with the test ac3 I sent you? Are they correctly mapped, ie. the SR is really only SR and not a mono surround coming out from both rears. I really doubt that a 6ch pcm is sent over the sp/dif, but I could of course be wrong and you are lucky. :) Doesn't the display say which mode it actually choose? Perhaps it takes the anaolog in, so disconect your 6ch analog in, when you try sp/dif, or did I get you wrong?

[MaTTeR]

Sigh. You guys totally took my post out of context. I never said that the MC Ogg was being decoded properly using SPDIF. What I did say was that the sound going from SPDIF was mapped exactly as if I were using the multi-channel analog ports. There was no difference at all to where the speakers was mapped to.

@D A,
No I'm not using the nasty STR series amp:p I'm using the newer "DE" series. Before I bought it, I did a listening test to the Denon 1801 and for the price difference I chose the Sony. If I use the AC3 file you sent me all the speaker mappings work perfectly. Which goes way back to my original point, MC Ogg files are not mapped properly. During my tests I would disconnect either the optical or analogs to ensure it was only using one of the output methods.

[DarkAvenger]

Ok, then we all just misunderstood. My goodness! This is compicated matter. ;)

Abpout that amp: I am not that sure, the full name of mine was either STR 545DE or DE545 STR (EDIT: it was the 5x100Watt version 545, not 445), I dunno remember. I think yours is just the bigger model, so basically has the same problems. (The case: Is it smaller than other amps, so rather compact? Then it is the standard series.) I can't belive that you took the Sony in favour to Denon!! If had compared them that day, I would have def. picked the Denon. Sony's good deries are qs (quality series), but then you have to pay loads of money, where it is doubtful whether it is worth. But as long as you are happy. ;)

[MaTTeR]

No offense was meant D A:)

The amp I have does not contain the letters STR in the model and no it's not compact at all. It's about the same size as the Denon 1801. Like I said, for the money difference I stuck with the Sony. If I were rich then I would have chosen the 1801. Perhaps the demo speakers that was being used in the store didn't do the Denon justice:)

[Tes]

@Dark Avenger,

I also have a Denon AVR-1801 and have been enjoying AC3 sound in my divx movies for some time. :)

But I fail to see any use for 5.1 Vorbis encoding at the moment. Anyone who owns a decent receiver and a sound card with SPDIF digital out can use the original AC3 track from the DVD in their rip. Transcoding 5.1ch AC3 to 6ch Vorbis can only result in lower quality audio (due mostly to re-encoding) at almost the same bitrate. Not to mention that using the MC analog outputs of a sound card to send to a receiver almost defeats the purpose of having a good receiver (with high quality DAC(s)) in the first place.

Currently the only reason I would have to use Vorbis in a DVD rip is if I want to make a single CD rip with stereo sound. On the other hand, if it was possible, transcoding DTS to MC Vorbis could prove to be worthwhile. Starting from higher quality DTS material and transcoding to MC Vorbis could actually show a benefit over 5.1ch AC3.

Just my 2c

[ChristianHJW]

@DA : Dont forget, SONY might be selling completely different models in USA.

@MaTTer : I still dont understand how you can have any form of surround effect when sending the transcoded 5.1 Vorbis via SPDIF to the amp :
a. No amp will understand Vorbis and the soundcard very probably wouldnt even send it via SPDIF
b. The L/R channels on a 5.1 AC3 stream won't AFAIK contain any DPL surround info
c. I can not believe Tobias DSF is 'intelligent' enough to make a DPL downmix when 'meeting' a 6 channel Vorbis .... or is PP's winamp plugin for Vorbis doing this ????

@DA, MaTTer : When i was in bussiness ( long time ago ) there were only 3 names mentioned when talking about well sounding surround receivers : Harman Kardon, Yamaha and Denon.

@Tes : Right now DA's vorbis.dll will create 6 channels of identical bitrates, which doesnt make much sense ( why encode the sub with 64 kbps ?? ). But in prinicipal it should be possible to create a 5.1 Vorbis stream with 160 - 200 kbps, with very similar quality to original AC3. But we have to say please to DA :D to make him look at
- channel coupling for different channels ( masters and slaves, like center being coupled to Left or right )
- different encoding qualities ( bitrates ) for different channels

We were also discussing 4 channel surround with 4 separate channels at bitrates of 100 - 120 kbps ( non DPL coding ) .... but given the low number of 4 channel soundcard and the high number of DPL capable equipment we would probably be better off doing a high quality Stereo at these bitrates, containing DPL matrixed surround ...

[ivan_alias]

I have a 4 channel soundcard!

Would be good to have the best use of my 4 speakers using 4 ogg chammels :)

[MaTTeR]

@Chris

Good point. Maybe the US does have different model numbers.

I can't really explain the SPDIF/MC Ogg issue. All I know is it's working just like the analog ports and vice versa:) IMO the amp is downmixing the Ogg to DPL, it just sees it as another PCM audio stream. Maybe? I'm just guessing. Keep in mind I'm using PP's plugin so that's another variable. When Tobias and D A fixes the DSF to map the speakers properly then I seriously doubt using my SPDIF will work. Multi-Channel/analog should though:D

Just found another variable...when playing the 5.1 Ogg files i have to use a Direct Sound source instead of a Wave Out. Wave Out makes the sound stutter over SPDIF. Perhaps the downmixing is occuring before the amp recieves the signal?

I'm no expert just reporting my findings;) I know D A is use to this:D

[DarkAvenger]

Hey Matter, I won't take anything from you as offense, as I know better, so don't worry. I suspected that I should add more smilies. *sigh* It seems I have a rough tone, which isn't meant like that.
It really seems you have a better Sony model. BTW, for me the price difference between the Sony and Denon amp was about €50, so not much...

@Tes

Currently it is rather experimental stage and I would keep the original ac3 as well, but there are many people who want 1cd rips... But when vorbis succeeds in the internet, perhaps it will come into hardware one day. I have a dream... :) But as I said some posts above, you must spread the news already now.

@Chris

OK, then Sony just hates Germany. :mad:

I personally never listened to a Yamaha amp, but they are said to be on a eual level as Denon, but have a different sound, so it is a matter of taste. HK on the other hand is considered as "low bugdet" high end, as they are esp good in stereo and 5.1 (Denon sucks in stereo, but I don't use it in that mode). But the HK doesn't have power nor bass (at the same amount of money you would spend) in comparison to a Denon - so HK was no choice for me. Another good choice would be Marantz, which is high-end, you still can afford, but I only heard stereos and they did sound good.

I am not a vorbis dev, so don't expect any miracles from me. I think I said that already three times. :rolleyes: Once the devs have done it, I will make it available. SO don't puch me, push the devs. BTW, in a week or so I won't have much time, as well. Starting finals/diploma...

If you have a DPL2 amp, probably 2channels are better at the same bitrate as 4ch, at least I think so. I never actually listened to DPL2, so I don't know whether it is just another crappy DSP program or something good (ie. it is not just "guessing" channels, but really reacreating as intended). Ohn the other hand I think a 3channel (with matrixed center+LFE in Lt + Rt plus a seperate mono full bandwidth St consisting of SL and SR) file would be better than a 2ch file decoded by DPL (rears wil sound rather shitty in comparison). Of course the center from the 3ch file should be decoded via DPL... About the 4ch solution, I dunno, but it would be the best for most computers. Furthermore by a simple circuit you could make a passive center decoding, so you would have 5ch. (Of course DPL for recreating the center would be better, like in the 3ch file.)

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by DarkAvenger
I am not a vorbis dev, so don't expect any miracles from me. I think I said that already three times. :rolleyes: Once the devs have done it, I will make it available. SO don't puch me, push the devs

Allow me to give you an update here :

I was talking to some Vorbis dev team members yesterday and they stated that channel coupling for multichannel encodings would for sure not be implemented in RC4 :( ....

They were not even sure if it would be existing in 1.0 :cry: ....

[MaTTeR]

That's pretty disappointing news since that's not what the developers were saying a month ago:(

I'm really starting to think about looking into AAC.The development seems to be moving much faster for MC than that of Vorbis. Roberto(Rare Wares) seems to like it over most of the codecs. I might be wrong but that's my take on it.

I was also thinking Nic had a partial DSF for AAC in the works:D

[Doom9]

@matter, christian: do you recall my comments on the "underground issues" that the vorbis team might have? Seems I wasn't so wrong. I think that vorbis would have a much better stand to be integrated in hardware devices if they have the ripping community behind them.. there's a large userbase that is very interested in vorbis, but if these interests are not taken seriously (optimization for 48khz and multichannel issues specifically) ogg may definitely never replace mp3 for ripping purposes.

[MaTTeR]

@Doom9,

I remember the comments. Unfortunately it looks like you could be right. I'm not sure what the developers are concentrating on here:confused: I mean it appears to me the ripping community is slanted to use Vorbis right now and it's certainly picking up steam. Dare I say we might be the larger portion of the Vorbis user base ATM? So at issue is why we are being ignored somewhat.

Maybe it's time for me or better yet, Mr. Marketing guru(Christian) to post our alarm in the Vorbis dev list. For now I can deal with Vorbis VBR 48kHz but on the other hand I have to agree with you that it certainly needs optimized on the other fronts(ABR & CBR).

IMO the developers have a very real chance to make the MC more effecient than say something like AAC or even AC3. I think it would be a big mistake to ignore this area. That's just my opinion though;)