HDMI-HDMI vs DVI-HDMI on nvidia ?

[Remicade]

I have GTX 750 ti when I use HDMI-HDMI the graphic card outpout 16-235 and when I use DVI-HDMI 0-255. Why ?

[Ghitulescu]

It's very simple
DVI is for computers.
HDMI is for video.

[hello_hello]

It's very simple
DVI is for computers.
HDMI is for video.

Was he referring to the video output levels or the "global" output levels?

"DVI for computers" and "HDMI for video" doesn't really work in that context as lots of video cards have HDMI out rather than DVI, while TVs have dedicated HDMI/PC inputs and computers are used to play video.

Remicade,
Is there a setting to change the video output levels in the Nvidia control panel under the Video section? Is it available for both HDMI and DVI? If so, do either work?
You weren't very specific with your question in respect to whether you need help changing the levels or if either method produces the "correct" levels or whether you were referring only to the video levels.

I've read lots of complaints in the past regarding HDMI always being limited range with Nvidia drivers, but I think it's only a problem if you're running a version of Windows newer than XP.
Apparently the Nvidia drivers automatically select a "global output range" based on whether the chosen resolution is from the TV or PC list of resolutions in the Nvidia Control Panel. There's a thread here (https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/523992/tip-for-nvidia-users-using-hdmi-and-getting-accurate-color-format/) including a link to a utility for forcing full range video output if you need it and a post explaining how the "global output range" effects the video levels, although I'm not sure I've got my head around it.

It seems like it might be a good idea. Connect at PC resolutions and refresh rates and Windows runs in full range mode as it's always done, or connect at TV resolutions and refresh rates and everything is scaled back to limited range....
Although there's not much of a line between them any more.

This post (https://pcmonitors.info/articles/correcting-hdmi-colour-on-nvidia-and-amd-gpus/) says there's now a "global levels" option under Desktop Colour Settings in the control panel. That might effect the way the Video output range setting works but I don't really know.

My old Nvidia card is dual VGA/DVI and by default they both output 16-235 for video (Windows XP). I've always thought it silly they don't expand video to full range by default, but at least it's pretty simple. Windows full range, video levels expanded to full range or not, some basic colour adjustments and that's about it.

[Ghitulescu]

"DVI for computers" and "HDMI for video" doesn't really work in that context as lots of video cards have HDMI out rather than DVI, while TVs have dedicated HDMI/PC inputs and computers are used to play video.

It does work :).
That some TVs have DVI and some monitors have HDMI inputs, this won't change this. I've carried out a simple test - in amazon there are currently 170 HDMI monitors for PC against 1427 DVI ones (I neglected those models that offer both, these must be less than 170 anyway).
Similarly, that a particular DVD player is able to play DivX, this doesn't change the fact that DivX was created for computers and not for TVs.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I have GTX 750 ti when I use HDMI-HDMI the graphic card outpout 16-235 and when I use DVI-HDMI 0-255. Why ?
The software for some graphics cards permits you to send 0-255 colour directly via the HDMI output: -

http://i61.tinypic.com/epj1vo.png


Cheers

[Asmodian]

The new Nvidia drivers offer range options for each display. It is amazing, after only a decade or two it is possible to actually set the range correctly for each display simply using the driver control panel!

You do not want to use the setting SeeMoreDigital posted, that only changes the video range. You can change the range for the entire display on the display properties page. Sorry not on an Nvidia computer at the moment.

[Remicade]

Remicade,
Is there a setting to change the video output levels in the Nvidia control panel under the Video section? Is it available for both HDMI and DVI? .
Well right now I use HDMI-HDMI connction, I have RGB and Dynamic Range Limited 16-235 in nvidia Control Panel, I cannot switch to 0-255, I hit Apply and the settings are back to 16-235. The video card is connected to Samsung 48H5030 LCD TV, I use madVR and I adjusted brightness and contrast with AVS 709 HD. If I switch to DVI-HDMI will be any benefit ? I watch only movies on TV, I don't play games or use as a monitor.

[foxyshadis]

DVI-HDMI takes away all of the YUV options (and audio) and leaves you with only RGB. The system trying to force you to use YUV (which also subsamples color to 4:2:0... check out black text on a red background) is Windows and the video driver being too clever for their own good, trying to force it to be a TV instead of a monitor. There are tricks you can use to fix it, like hacking the monitor .ini file in the Windows drivers folder to input your own EDID, but that's a huge pain and only works sometimes. Using DVI makes all the pain go away.

Of course, if you're using it as a TV and not a monitor you need very crisp text and most accurate color on, then it probably won't matter to you either way. Now the fact that it is a TV might mean that the overscan is affected on DVI, you'll have to look into disabling or mitigating that, and it might also mean that the TV can only input YUV and will convert from RGB to YUV and back even on DVI. TVs are a pain.

[SeeMoreDigital]

If I switch to DVI-HDMI will be any benefit ? I watch only movies on TV, I don't play games or use as a monitor.In short... no! Given all commercial video is currently 4.2.0 just use HDMI to HDMI ;)

[hello_hello]

That some TVs have DVI and some monitors have HDMI inputs, this won't change this. I've carried out a simple test - in amazon there are currently 170 HDMI monitors for PC against 1427 DVI ones (I neglected those models that offer both, these must be less than 170 anyway).

PCs are often connected to TVs.
Video card manufacturers have blurred the line between DVI and HDMI for quite a while. DVI cards can often output HDMI signalling. The video card in this PC must be at least six years old. It's capable of YCbCr 4:4:4 output. DVI is officially only RGB.
TVs may be predominantly HDMI but it supports DVI signalling, making DVI on TVs a bit redundant.

Nvidia have a system where the output is considered either HDMI or DVI, I think depending on resolution. This video card has no HDMI out. Only DVI. The Nvidia control panel shows it as being connected to my TV via HDMI.

DVI is going the way of the dodo. Chances are either HDMI and/or Display Port will succeed it. Just ask Intel, four years ago (http://newsroom.intel.com/community/intel_newsroom/blog/2010/12/08/leading-pc-companies-move-to-all-digital-display-technology-phasing-out-analog).

Similarly, that a particular DVD player is able to play DivX, this doesn't change the fact that DivX was created for computers and not for TVs.

It doesn't stop the majority of DVD/Bluray players on the planet from playing DivX video though, does it?

[hello_hello]

DVI-HDMI takes away all of the YUV options (and audio) and leaves you with only RGB.

Not for my 8600GT (re YUV options).
See my previous post.

You had to dare me..... ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_HD_2000_Series#Other_features
Each DVI output includes dual-link HDCP encoder with on-chip decipher key. HDMI was introduced, supporting display resolutions up to 1,920×1,080, with integrated HD audio controller with 5.1-channel LPCM and AC3 encoding support. Audio is transmitted via DVI port, with specially designed DVI-to-HDMI dongle for HDMI output that carries both audio and video.

[foxyshadis]

Not for my 8600GT (re YUV options).
See my previous post.

You had to dare me..... ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_HD_2000_Series#Other_features
Each DVI output includes dual-link HDCP encoder with on-chip decipher key. HDMI was introduced, supporting display resolutions up to 1,920×1,080, with integrated HD audio controller with 5.1-channel LPCM and AC3 encoding support. Audio is transmitted via DVI port, with specially designed DVI-to-HDMI dongle for HDMI output that carries both audio and video.

Huh, I haven't seen that before. I haven't seen 4:4:4 YUV output either, only 4:2:0, and that's on two systems less than two years old. (One Intel, one nVidia.) I guess they just do whatever they feel like, instead of trying to stay consistent.

[nevcairiel]

I haven't seen 4:4:4 YUV output either, only 4:2:0, and that's on two systems less than two years old.

Thats unlikely, considering 4:2:0 YUV was not supported on HDMI at all until the recent HDMI 2.0 spec, before it was just 4:4:4 or 4:2:2
And you specifically need to force YUV output on those cards, they all default to RGB.

Also, many NVIDIA cards can just use a passive generic DVI->HDMI adapter without any change in functionality otherwise, they detect automatically if a TV or PC display is connected.
AMD needs a proprietary adapter, but otherwise should offer similar things.

[hello_hello]

The new Nvidia drivers offer range options for each display. It is amazing, after only a decade or two it is possible to actually set the range correctly for each display simply using the driver control panel!

You do not want to use the setting SeeMoreDigital posted, that only changes the video range. You can change the range for the entire display on the display properties page. Sorry not on an Nvidia computer at the moment.

You might want to use the setting SeeMoreDigital posted. I do. It depends on the display and what it'll work with in respect to input levels.
I can tell my TV to expect PC levels, which of course means I've got to expand the video levels for it just like a PC monitor, but what happens if the TV/monitor is set to expect TV levels?
I'm asking mainly in respect to image quality with everything reduced to limited range. Does it make a noticeable difference?

Well right now I use HDMI-HDMI connction, I have RGB and Dynamic Range Limited 16-235 in nvidia Control Panel, I cannot switch to 0-255, I hit Apply and the settings are back to 16-235. The video card is connected to Samsung 48H5030 LCD TV, I use madVR and I adjusted brightness and contrast with AVS 709 HD. If I switch to DVI-HDMI will be any benefit ? I watch only movies on TV, I don't play games or use as a monitor.

When you connect via DVI, are you still using the same input on the TV? Can you change the HDMI input level? HDMI black level, I think Samsung call it. "Normal" means PC levels. Go figure. It's a TV and the the PC levels input setting is "normal". For my TV, "Low" sets the TV to expect TV levels.

It may even be possible there's some sort of communication going on between the TV and PC when using HDMI where the TV says "hey, I want TV levels". I don't know if it can, but there's still a lot of variables.
When you compare DVI and HDMI in respect to the way video looks, does it look different? I know you said HDMI is limited levels and DVI is full range but I'm just wondering what the TV's doing?

Apparently Nvidia drivers can send "content type information" over HDMI that says "be a desktop", and then when you run a video full screen, it says "be a TV", or something like that, or you can set it manually. Apparently it's under Display/Adjust Colour settings. If it can get the TV to switch modes, I could only imagine what else it might do.

As a side note:
Here's an example of what I meant in an earlier post when I said Nvidia seem to refer to HDMI and DVI as interchangeable, but not dependant on using a DVI or HDMI out.

http://nvidia.helpmax.net/en/display/colour-settings/how-do-i/improve-image-quality-based-on-the-display-content/
This instruction applies to HDMI monitors (not treated as DVI) and GPUs that support AVI infoframes on Windows Vista and later.
It strongly implies you can connect via HDMI and the drivers will "treat a monitor as DVI" under some circumstances. And logically DVI can be treated as HDMI as seems to be the case for my card and TV. If that's what happens, I don't know how it works though.

[hello_hello]

Huh, I haven't seen that before. I haven't seen 4:4:4 YUV output either, only 4:2:0, and that's on two systems less than two years old. (One Intel, one nVidia.) I guess they just do whatever they feel like, instead of trying to stay consistent.

If you'd care to approve the pic attached....... :)

[Asmodian]

You might want to use the setting SeeMoreDigital posted. I do. It depends on the display and what it'll work with in respect to input levels.
I can tell my TV to expect PC levels, which of course means I've got to expand the video levels for it just like a PC monitor, but what happens if the TV/monitor is set to expect TV levels?
I'm asking mainly in respect to image quality with everything reduced to limited range. Does it make a noticeable difference?

It isn't that you do not want limited range it is that Nvidia recently added an option to set the range for all content, not only video. If you use the setting SeeMoreDigital posted video will be correct on a limited range display but your desktop will be clipped. Using the new limited option everything looks correct.
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd496/asmodian3/NvidiaDrivers-NewLimitedOption_zpsntnhuwkg.png

[hello_hello]

It isn't that you do not want limited range it is that Nvidia recently added an option to set the range for all content, not only video. If you use the setting SeeMoreDigital posted video will be correct on a limited range display but your desktop will be clipped. Using the new limited option everything looks correct.

Given everything would be scaled from bitmaps to images in webpages I was just curious if it'd be noticeable or whether it all looks the same in the end. I've not seen a computer running in "global limited range" mode so I don't know.

Cheers.

[Asmodian]

The option in "Adjust video image settings" doesn't change bitmaps, web pages, the OS, thumbnails, etc. The new one does. To me it is instantly noticeable but I notice shadow crush pretty quickly. It is a very obvious change toggling between them. This option is screen specific so your normal monitor is still full range. Nvidia finally gave an option to override the default global output levels for HDMI, DVI, etc. With display port becoming main stream I assume they could not decide what a good default was so they added the option. :p

My desktop image looks so much better at the correct range. ;)

As I never do much browsing on a TV the biggest benefit for me is thumbnails and the OS in general. The faint shades of gray are visible again.

[hello_hello]

The option in "Adjust video image settings" doesn't change bitmaps, web pages, the OS, thumbnails, etc. The new one does. To me it is instantly noticeable but I notice shadow crush pretty quickly. It is a very obvious change toggling between them.

I'm still not sure we're on exactly the same wavelength. The question I've been trying to ask would be this:

Setup 1: TV set to expect PC levels, Nvidia global output range PC levels. Windpws displays correctly.
Setup 2: TV set to expect TV levels, Nvidia global output range TV levels. Windows displays correctly.

Now comes the question...... do they look the same?
I'm wondering if the scaling has a negative effect on the way Windows and programs look. I'm pretty sure I've read posts in the past where someone's claimed the expanding of video levels to PC levels for a PC monitor increases the likelihood of banding, which seems plausible if there's rounding errors, but I'm not sure I've seen a difference between PC levels in and out and TV levels in and out in that respect.
It's almost impossible to make valid comparisons without two identical TVs and two identical video cards etc so you could compare them side by side.

My desktop image looks so much better at the correct range. ;)

It would.
I don't have the "global" levels option (still using XP) but I can set the output to YCbCr 4:4:4, and when I do the TV defaults to expecting TV levels and won't let me change it. Video looks fine without expanding the levels but Windows itself looks a bit off/crushed/dark. I assume it's still full range.

[Asmodian]

I'm still not sure we're on exactly the same wavelength. The question I've been trying to ask would be this:

Setup 1: TV set to expect PC levels, Nvidia global output range PC levels. Windpws displays correctly.
Setup 2: TV set to expect TV levels, Nvidia global output range TV levels. Windows displays correctly.

Now comes the question...... do they look the same?

Ah I see, yes they look the same.

[Remicade]

In the latest nvidia's drivers I can change between 16-235 and 0-255. Problem solved. I use 16-235.

[Remicade]

Well it's wrong. If the source is PC I must choose 0-255 and if the source is a bluray player i must choose 16-235.

[hello_hello]

Ah I see, yes they look the same.

Cheers.

Well it's wrong. If the source is PC I must choose 0-255 and if the source is a bluray player i must choose 16-235.

Are you referring to the input levels you'd configure in the TV's setup? I'm not sure what you mean.

My TV (Samsung Plasma) lets me set the input level. The option's called "HDMI black level" (I think). "Normal" is PC levels and "Low" is TV levels. I can't remember if that applies to all the HDMI inputs, or only the dedicated HDMI/PC input. I'd need to check (the PC connected via HDMI isn't on at the moment), but the default would be TV levels and each HDMI input would be configured independently (as are most of the picture settings).

In the past (ie when using XP) the levels used by Windows itself were always full range. Therefore to get the TV to display Windows correctly, I set the TV to expect full range (PC) levels. I set the video card to expand the video levels to full range and video displays correctly also.

For newer Windows and drivers there's now two options. One sets the "global" levels (I think it's under Display Colours or something like that), so you can reduce Windows itself to limited range, connect to a TV expecting limited range levels, Windows would display correctly and no expansion of video levels is required (that's the levels option under the Video section).

Previously there was no "global" levels setting under "Display" and the drivers chose the global levels. That may have been the cause of your inability to change the "Video" levels previously and the reason for the "force full range" utility I linked to earlier. I don't fully understand that problem as I'm still using XP so it didn't effect me.

Anyway, I don't quite understand your "if the source is PC I must choose 0-255 and if the source is a bluray player i must choose 16-235" comment as the way I understand it this thread's only concerned with connecting a PC to a TV/Monitor so I'm not sure where Bluray comes into it.

[Asmodian]

Well it's wrong. If the source is PC I must choose 0-255 and if the source is a bluray player i must choose 16-235.

Why must you chose full range on the PC? What goes wrong if you do not?

If your TV is expecting limited set the PC to limited, if your TV is expecting full range set your PC to full. Full is naive for PC so if possible use full but it isn't wrong if you don't (finally). :confused:

[Remicade]

Well I found this post in avs and I think it's right : "Never output anything other than RGB 0-255 from a PC source unless you have no other option. Everything other than video is rendered natively in the 0-255 range, so you are compressing levels to achieve a 16-235 output. Most video cards do not do this with especially high precision and will introduce banding into the image."

nvidia control panel it's a mistery for me: right now I'm stuck again at 16-235 I cannot change to 0-255 anymore. I give up :(.

[Ghitulescu]

... right now I'm stuck again at 16-235 I cannot change to 0-255 anymore. I give up :(.

Yes, the EDID is stronger than you :)

[pandy]

0-255 is allowed only in DVI mode, for HDMI or 16-235/16-240 (limited quantization range) or 1-254 (full quantization range) is allowed.

[Asmodian]

I do agree with that quote from avs but you seem to fall into the "unless you have no other option" category. You might as well do it correctly even if your display will not do optimally. :)

[hello_hello]

0-255 is allowed only in DVI mode, for HDMI or 16-235/16-240 (limited quantization range) or 1-254 (full quantization range) is allowed.

But.....
The HDMI spec says YCbCr 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 can only be limited levels. My TV follows that rule. When the input is YCbCr the option to change the levels is greyed out. The Nvidia control panel on the other hand (keep in mind I'm running XP with older drivers) will still happily expand the video levels to full range even when the output is YCbCr.
To add to the fun, my TV will put itself intp "PC mode" when the right criteria are met, regardless of the input type (HDMI/PC input at 60Hz etc), so due to the "YCbCr always being limited" rule, PC mode can be limited levels. That seems counter-intuitive at first. For RGB, it lets you select what you want.

[SeeMoreDigital]

nvidia control panel it's a mistery for me: right now I'm stuck again at 16-235 I cannot change to 0-255 anymore. I give up :(.Out of interest, what options are under the 'Digital color format:' and 'Content type reported to the display:' options?

http://forum.doom9.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14606&stc=1&d=1422248228


Cheers

[hello_hello]

nvidia control panel it's a mistery for me: right now I'm stuck again at 16-235 I cannot change to 0-255 anymore. I give up :(.

I wonder if it's because it knows the TV is set to expect TV levels. If you change the TV setting to PC levels, maybe then the video card will let you select 0-255.

If that's the way it works it'd make sense, reducing the likelihood of mismatched levels. Whether it does or not I don't know. I'm using XP and old drivers that probably don't communicate that way and it doesn't work that way for me anyway, but maybe for newer windows versions.

I don't have the "report content type" option either. Apparently that can get the TV to switch modes. Maybe input levels too, or would that be silly? Probably.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I wonder if it's because it knows the TV is set to expect TV levels. If you change the TV setting to PC levels, maybe then the video card will let you select 0-255.Could well be... The HDMI communication protocols between devices can throw-up some weird results...

[hello_hello]

Out of interest, what options are under the 'Digital color format:' and 'Content type reported to the display:' options?

I found an nvidia guide for a slightly older driver version, but for content type it says:

Auto select, Desktop programs, Full-screen videos, Photos, Movie, Games
Window Vista and later; Some HDMI displays only
- available values dependent on display support

Digital color format is RGB or YCbCr for HDMI and DisplayPort connections.

In my case when the connection is VGA the option disappears. Maybe the same thing happens for DVI but I'm not sure how Nvidia actually distinguish between HDMI and DVI. As I reported previously, my card only has DVI, but the control panels still shows the connection to my TV as being HDMI and it'll let me select either RGB or YCbCr.

[hello_hello]

The content type option seems like something that'd have a fair potential to cause lots of "what's going on?".
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2257420

[nevcairiel]

The content type option seems like something that'd have a fair potential to cause lots of "what's going on?".
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2257420

If left on "Auto", it can cause weirdness in some setups. Best to just set it to your main use-case, on my HTPC thats Video, and no problems.

That said, my current TV has never caused me any problems.