Question about pixel aspect ratio when encoding a DVD in MeGUI

[MaximRecoil]

I'm using MeGUI 2507 to encode a non-anamorphic NTSC DVD, using the x264 codec and the MKV container.

Rather than adding a resizing filter to the AVS script to resize it from 720x480 to e.g. 640x480 (like I would do if I were making an Xvid AVI), I'd like to encode it as is, but have its pixel aspect ratio (or whatever) set so that it displays at 4:3; i.e., I want it to do the same thing that the original DVD does. How do I do this?

[MaximRecoil]

Okay, I was able to do it by encoding to a raw video stream (no container) in MeGUI, and then using mkvmerge GUI to mux it into an MKV container, because mkvmerge GUI has the option to set the display aspect ratio. The "MKV Muxer" tool included with MeGUI has no such option that I can see, even though I assume it is also a GUI for mkvmerge.

So doing it this way must set the display aspect ratio in the MKV container somehow, because the raw video stream isn't touched. Isn't there a way to encode the pixel aspect ratio into the video stream itself, so that it is always there even if you mux it into a different container? I would think that the x264 codec would have this function, but I can't find it in the MeGUI interface anywhere.

[sneaker_ger]

a non-anamorphic NTSC DVD
Such thing does not exist.

So doing it this way must set the display aspect ratio in the MKV container somehow, because the raw video stream isn't touched. Isn't there a way to encode the pixel aspect ratio into the video stream itself, so that it is always there even if you mux it into a different container? I would think that the x264 codec would have this function, but I can't find it in the MeGUI interface anywhere.
Use --sar (I think "Force SAR" in advanved x264 options) with the appropriate value from the following table:

http://www.abload.de/img/mpeg4saronbt6.png

Mkvmerge will read and apply this automatically as well.

The One-Click-Encoder also has an anamorphic option but I don't know how it works.

[hello_hello]

When you open a DVD with MeGUI's script creator (after indexing it) you'll see the script creator has an anamorphic option called "Clever anamorphic encoding". Enable it. There's a few different anamorphic options to choose from, but the "encode non mod16" option just encodes the video "as is" after cropping. It doesn't try to auto-adjust the cropping or allow you to resize.

If you enable anamorphic encoding, MeGUI adds the DAR to the top of the script. It uses that along with the output resolution to set the correct PAR. If you use anamorphic encoding, it's probably an idea to let MeGUI do the work and not set the PAR (SAR) in the x264 encoder configuration.
After you've saved the script you can use the preview button in the video section of MeGUI's main window. It has an option to display the preview with the same aspect ratio that'll be used when encoding. It'll also let you set a new DAR, which MeGUI will use when you add the encoding job to the queue, although there's rarely a need to do so. You could though, create a script without a DAR (just 720x480) and use the preview in the video section to set the DAR to 4:3 or 16:9 etc, then add the encoding job to the queue.

The script creator lets you select the input display aspect ratio. It probably defaults to "ITU 4:3" for 4:3 DVDs. Pretty much all 4:3 DVDs would use ITU resizing. Most 16:9 DVDs use straight 16:9 resizing (not "ITU 16:9") unless they have a reasonable amount of black down each side (8 pixels or more) in which case they'd probably be "ITU 16:9".

I can understand if you might think resizing to square pixels requires resizing to old AVI resolutions, as by default MeGUI doesn't let you resize "up" and it considers resizing a DVD to resolutions such as 854x480 or 1024x576 as resizing "up". If you click on the "Config" button next to the Avisynth Profile drop down box in the script creator, you can enable resizing "up". There's also an option labelled "acceptable anamorphic aspect error". It lets MeGUI fudge the aspect ratio a bit to make outputting nice 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratios easier if you crop. It's set to 1% by default. If you change it to 0% MeGUI will always calculate an exact DAR after cropping. It only applies to anamorphic encoding.

Technically, anamorphic encoding is probably the best method. I resize DVDs "up" myself as a couple of the playback devices in this house don't support anamorphic MKV/MP4. I found resizing "up" can also have a nice side effect of sharpening the video a little if you use a sharp resizer (I use spline36 myself). Naturally though, resizing to 854x480 or 1024x576 etc (for 16:9) requires a higher bitrate to encode at the same quality as anamorphic encoding, as there's more video to encode.

The OneClick encoder has anamorphic options, although I never use the OneClick encoder myself.

[hello_hello]

Such thing does not exist.

I thought the same thing myself at first, but the movie industry uses the term "anamorphic" to distinguish 16:9 DVDs from 4:3 DVDs. That's probably what he was referring to when he said "non-anamorphic"..... 4:3 DVDs.

[MaximRecoil]

Such thing does not exist.

In common-speak it does. It refers to a DVD that displays in a 4:3 aspect ratio rather than a 16:9 aspect ratio. That's because the only time you'll ever see the word "anamorphic" printed on a DVD cover is when it displays in a 16:9 aspect ratio.

Use --sar (I think "Force SAR" in advanved x264 options) with the appropriate value from the following table:

http://www.abload.de/img/mpeg4saronbt6.png

Mkvmerge will read and apply this automatically as well.

The One-Click-Encoder also has an anamorphic option but I don't know how it works.

That works, thanks. But I wonder why 10/11? That results in a display aspect ratio of 1.363:1. If I use an 8/9 SAR in the advanced x264 options, it gives a 1.333:1 display aspect ratio. If I specify 4/3 in mkvmerge, it gives the file a display aspect ratio of exactly 1.333:1 as well. The display aspect ratio of the actual DVD is also 1.333:1.

[sneaker_ger]

That table only holds predefined H.264 aspect ratios (10/11 equals "720x480 4:3 frame with horizontal overscan" et. al.), 8:9 is a custom one. You are free to use 8:9 if it fit's your source better, though. The whole "correct aspect ratio" thing is a discussion of its own, you can search the forum - it has been discussed to death.

[Sharc]

....But I wonder why 10/11? That results in a display aspect ratio of 1.363:1. If I use an 8/9 SAR in the advanced x264 options, it gives a 1.333:1 display aspect ratio. If I specify 4/3 in mkvmerge, it gives the file a display aspect ratio of exactly 1.333:1 as well. The display aspect ratio of the actual DVD is also 1.333:1.
I am not too familiar with MeGui and mkvmerge, but here the rationale for the 10/11:
10/11=0.909090909... is the "practical" mpeg4 approximation of the "exact" ITU-T PAR of 38800/42651=0.9097090337858... for NTSC 4:3 DVDs with 702 pixel width for the movie picture. For mod16 reasons the movie picture on the DVD is normally stored as 704x480 pixels with added 2x8 pixels black borders left and right (pillow).
For playback the 704 pixels are horizontally stretched (in this case actually shrunk) by 10/11 and the movie picture becomes 640x480 which is exactly 4:3.

Edit:
... and oh yes, a story of its own....

[MaximRecoil]

When you open a DVD with MeGUI's script creator (after indexing it) you'll see the script creator has an anamorphic option called "Clever anamorphic encoding". Enable it. There's a few different anamorphic options to choose from, but the "encode non mod16" option just encodes the video "as is" after cropping. It doesn't try to auto-adjust the cropping or allow you to resize.

If you enable anamorphic encoding, MeGUI adds the DAR to the top of the script. It uses that along with the output resolution to set the correct PAR. If you use anamorphic encoding, it's probably an idea to let MeGUI do the work and not set the PAR (SAR) in the x264 encoder configuration.
After you've saved the script you can use the preview button in the video section of MeGUI's main window. It has an option to display the preview with the same aspect ratio that'll be used when encoding. It'll also let you set a new DAR, which MeGUI will use when you add the encoding job to the queue, although there's rarely a need to do so. You could though, create a script without a DAR (just 720x480) and use the preview in the video section to set the DAR to 4:3 or 16:9 etc, then add the encoding job to the queue.

The script creator lets you select the input display aspect ratio. It probably defaults to "ITU 4:3" for 4:3 DVDs. Pretty much all 4:3 DVDs would use ITU resizing. Most 16:9 DVDs use straight 16:9 resizing (not "ITU 16:9") unless they have a reasonable amount of black down each side (8 pixels or more) in which case they'd probably be "ITU 16:9".

I can understand if you might think resizing to square pixels requires resizing to old AVI resolutions, as by default MeGUI doesn't let you resize "up" and it considers resizing a DVD to resolutions such as 854x480 or 1024x576 as resizing "up". If you click on the "Config" button next to the Avisynth Profile drop down box in the script creator, you can enable resizing "up". There's also an option labelled "acceptable anamorphic aspect error". It lets MeGUI fudge the aspect ratio a bit to make outputting nice 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratios easier if you crop. It's set to 1% by default. If you change it to 0% MeGUI will always calculate an exact DAR after cropping. It only applies to anamorphic encoding.

Technically, anamorphic encoding is probably the best method. I resize DVDs "up" myself as a couple of the playback devices in this house don't support anamorphic MKV/MP4. I found resizing "up" can also have a nice side effect of sharpening the video a little if you use a sharp resizer (I use spline36 myself). Naturally though, resizing to 854x480 or 1024x576 etc (for 16:9) requires a higher bitrate to encode at the same quality as anamorphic encoding, as there's more video to encode.

The OneClick encoder has anamorphic options, although I never use the OneClick encoder myself.

Thanks for the detailed response. In my case, with this particular DVD, I'm not doing any cropping or resizing, I'm just encoding the 720x480 video stream as-is. I just want it to look and function the same as the original DVD, and setting the SAR in the x264 options does the trick.

I wouldn't even bother with this encode if not for some bizarre problems I'm having with the DVD. For starters, the DVD briefly freezes at times in my old standalone DVD player, but that isn't the bizarre thing. Since the freezing is annoying, I figured I'd watch it on my PC, using an old copy of PowerDVD. When I did that I noticed dark horizontal lines in the picture during certain scenes. So I tried it in Media Player Classic, and it did the same thing. Then I tried it in Media Player Classic Home Cinema, and there were no lines, just as there are no lines on my standalone DVD player.

However, I want to watch it on my TV, so I ripped the DVD to an ISO image (1:1, no re-encoding), and put it on a flash drive to watch it on my WD Live TV media player. Unfortunately, the lines show up on that too. I have no idea what is so special about the MPEG-2 video stream on this DVD that makes it show lines on some players, but not on others. I've never seen anything like it.

I opened one of the VOBs in VirtualDub, and there were no lines in the preview window. So I created a D2V file with DGIndex, and then encoded a short clip to an Xvid AVI, and there were no lines in it on any media player, including my WD Live TV. The same goes for the test x264 encodes I've done through MeGUI.

So I just want to encode a file that is visually ~indistinguishable from the DVD, which I can watch on my TV without the dark lines or without freezing. For the x264 settings I'm going to use constant quality "18" and "film" tuning. I hope that does the trick. I don't have any experience with x264; practically everything I've done in the past has been with Xvid and VirtualDub. I just like the idea that, with MKV I can mimic the pixel aspect ratio "trick" that DVDs use, which will save me from having to use a resizing filter, which slows down the encoding process and can introduce artifacts.

[hello_hello]

That works, thanks. But I wonder why 10/11? That results in a display aspect ratio of 1.363:1. If I use an 8/9 SAR in the advanced x264 options, it gives a 1.333:1 display aspect ratio. If I specify 4/3 in mkvmerge, it gives the file a display aspect ratio of exactly 1.333:1 as well. The display aspect ratio of the actual DVD is also 1.333:1.

The display aspect ratio of a 4:3 DVD isn't 1.33333 (most of the time). It's a little wider. The same can apply to 16:9 DVDs. They can be a little wider than 16:9. Most newer 16:9 DVDs use straight 16:9 resizing though.

Here's a list of pixel aspect ratios:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1058927#post1058927

If you select an "ITU" Input aspect ratio in MeGUI's script creator, I'm pretty sure it calculates the DAR using the PARs in the second table (the "commonly used ITU-PAR").
If you select a straight 4:3 or 16:9 Input aspect ratio in the script creator, it uses the PARs in the fourth table (generic).
You can't set an "ITU" pixel aspect ratio in MeGUI's x264 encoder configuration (using the drop down list), but you can set an MPEG4 pixel aspect ratio (SAR) which is very similar. Or you can add whatever SAR you like in the custom commandline section.
ie --sar 4320:4739

Most software players (MPC-HC etc) just use straight 4:3 or 16:9 resizing when displaying DVD video. That doesn't mean they're getting it right.
I use the "rule of thumb" I mentioned earlier for deciding whether to use an ITU or non-ITU aspect ratio but I'm fairly certain of one thing. 99% of 4:3 DVDs are ITU which means their display aspect ratio is around 1.363.
If you crop away the crud (black bars) what's left might be around 1.333.

So I just want to encode a file that is visually ~indistinguishable from the DVD, which I can watch on my TV without the dark lines or without freezing. For the x264 settings I'm going to use constant quality "18" and "film" tuning. I hope that does the trick. I don't have any experience with x264; practically everything I've done in the past has been with Xvid and VirtualDub. I just like the idea that, with MKV I can mimic the pixel aspect ratio "trick" that DVDs use, which will save me from having to use a resizing filter, which slows down the encoding process and can introduce artifacts.

I use CRF18 for standard definition and 720p myself. I tend to use CRF20 for 1080p. The "film" tuning tends to also be a good idea (it might help retain more fine picture detail).

I'm not trying to talk you out of anamorphic encoding but if you resize to square pixels without changing the height, it tends not to cause too much in the way of resizing artefacts.

Being 4:3 DVDs I assume the chances of them being interlaced are pretty good. If so, are you encoding them as interlaced or de-interlacing them?
I always de-interlace myself, but only to "full frame rate" (59.940fps for NTSC or 50fps for PAL) as motion looks much smoother than 29.970fps or 25fps. The de-interlacing method for doing so in MeGUI is "Yadif with Bob". There's better de-interlacing (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=156028), but "Yadif with Bob" should look about the same as the original DVD looks when it's being de-interlaced on playback.
Of course if the original DVD isn't interlaced, there's no need to worry about any of that.

[MaximRecoil]

I am not too familiar with MeGui and mkvmerge, but here the rationale for the 10/11:
10/11=0.909090909... is the "practical" mpeg4 approximation of the "exact" ITU-T PAR of 38800/42651=0.9097090337858... for NTSC 4:3 DVDs with 702 pixel width for the movie picture. For mod16 reasons the movie picture on the DVD is normally stored as 704x480 pixels with added 2x8 pixels black borders left and right (pillow).
For playback the 704 pixels are horizontally stretched (in this case actually shrunk) by 10/11 and the movie picture becomes 640x480 which is exactly 4:3.

Edit:
... and oh yes, a story of its own....

I wonder what the point of limiting the picture to 704x480 is, because 720x480 is also mod16 of course.

I don't think I've ever seen a DVD with a perfect 8 pixel border on both sides of the picture area. There is usually a thicker border on one side (usually the left side), and a thin border or no border at all on the other side. Also, the borders usually have a vague/fuzzy transition to the picture area.

In any event, if I play the original DVD in Media Player Classic Home Cinema and press number 5 on the number pad, it shows at the bottom that the aspect ratio is 1.333:1 (640x480 is the actual size of the displayed video). If I encode a clip from the DVD, just the full frame with no cropping or resizing, and specify an SAR of 8/9 in the x264 options, I get the exact same result in MPC-HC. On the other hand, if I specify an SAR of 10/11, MPC-HC shows an aspect ratio of 1.363:1.

PowerDVD displays this DVD at 720x540, which is also exactly 1.333:1.

If DVDs use the ITU PAR that you mentioned, I wonder if software players ignore that and just resize them to a 1.333:1 AR.

[MaximRecoil]

Most software players (MPC-HC etc) just use straight 4:3 or 16:9 resizing when displaying DVD video. That doesn't mean they're getting it right.

That's what I was beginning to suspect. I asked another member about that in my previous post.

I use the "rule of thumb" I mentioned earlier for deciding whether to use an ITU or non-ITU aspect ratio but I'm fairly certain of one thing. 99% of 4:3 DVDs are ITU which means their display aspect ratio is around 1.363.

If I use the 10/11 SAR (for a 1.363:1 DAR), it will probably display on my WD Live TV media player in exactly the same AR as the actual DVD does on my standalone DVD player (I assume that standalone DVD players don't "fudge" it to exactly 1.333:1). So I think that's what I'll go with instead of an 8/9 SAR.

Being 4:3 DVDs I assume the chances of them being interlaced are pretty good. If so, are you encoding them as interlaced or de-interlacing them?
I always de-interlace myself, but only to "full frame rate" (59.940fps for NTSC or 50fps for PAL) as motion looks much smoother than 29.970fps or 25fps. The de-interlacing method for doing so in MeGUI is "Yadif with Bob". There's better de-interlacing (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=156028), but "Yadif with Bob" should look about the same as the original DVD looks when it's being de-interlaced on playback.

The DVD is film-source, so I had "Field Operation > Forced Film" checked in DGIndex when I had it generate the D2V file, which inverse telecined it to 23.976 (24000/1001) frames per second, leaving only the original full/progressive frames. When encoding video-source DVD material, I use LeakKernelDeint in the AVS script, which has always looked good enough to me. The video-source DVDs I've dealt with were all shot on Betacam or Betacam SP (sitcoms from the '80s for example), which isn't very high quality to begin with, so I don't make much of a fuss about the encoding.

[Sharc]

I wonder what the point of limiting the picture to 704x480 is, because 720x480 is also mod16 of course.

I don't think I've ever seen a DVD with a perfect 8 pixel border on both sides of the picture area. There is usually a thicker border on one side (usually the left side), and a thin border or no border at all on the other side. Also, the borders usually have a vague/fuzzy transition to the picture area.

See for example here (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1686753&postcount=17) and the preceding and subsequent posts in that thread. The story never ends .... ;)

If DVDs use the ITU PAR that you mentioned, I wonder if software players ignore that and just resize them to a 1.333:1 AR.
I think this is mostly the case for DVD sources.
For x264 streams you have however the choice in MPC-HC to force the playback to 4:3, 16:9 etc. or to display it according to the --sar signalling. You can toggle between the settings and see how the picture adjusts.

[hello_hello]

If I use the 10/11 SAR (for a 1.363:1 DAR), it will probably display on my WD Live TV media player in exactly the same AR as the actual DVD does on my standalone DVD player (I assume that standalone DVD players don't "fudge" it to exactly 1.333:1). So I think that's what I'll go with instead of an 8/9 SAR.

DVD players should use the ITU aspect ratios, although the HDMI specs don't include the ITU aspect ratios, as far as I know. I've read posts where people have claimed their HDMI DVD player outputs an ITU aspect ratio over the composite out but exactly 4:3 or 16:9 if the output is HDMI. Although maybe that's more to do with the way the TV displays the picture than what the DVD player is doing?

I don't know what the advantage is to using 10/11. Is there a player which will only use the correct PAR if it's 10/11 or 40/33 etc?
As far as I know DVDs don't use mpeg4 PARs and while they're similar, they're not exactly the same. I've always used 4320/4739 myself (NTSC 4:3). Well, I let MeGUI set the aspect ratio, and I'm pretty sure that's what it'd use, given that's the source aspect ratio. I assume it'd be a custom PAR for mpeg4, but according to this post, custom mpeg4 aspect ratios are perfectly valid. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=562532

[Sharc]

I don't know what the advantage is to using 10/11. Is there a player which will only use the correct PAR if it's 10/11 or 40/33 etc?
10/11 is included in the H.264 and Blu-Ray standard, while 8/9 is not included. Picky Blu-Ray standalones may reject to play non-standard SAR's or perhaps play it at their default DAR which means either 4:3 or 16:9. SW players are more flexible in this respect.


As far as I know DVDs don't use mpeg4 PARs and while they're similar, they're not exactly the same.
DVD are mpeg1 or mpeg2 only.

[MaximRecoil]

I compared the picture of the 10/11 (1.363:1) MKV file with the original DVD.

The original DVD was played on my old Philips DVP642 DVD player, connected to the TV via component (YPbPr) inputs, and the MKV was played on the my WD Live TV media player, connected to the TV via the A/V (composite) inputs. I paused both of them in the same spot and flipped back and forth between them using the input source selection on the TV.

I held my finger on the screen at a transition point between the movie picture and the letterboxing. The MKV's picture had about a half inch shorter picture (32" 4:3 CRT) on both top and bottom (so about one inch shorter total). I then did the same comparison with a clip I'd encoded to exactly 4:3 (1.333:1), and they were about the same picture height, within an eighth inch total or so, and that slight difference can be accounted for by the fact that the DVD player on the component inputs overscanned the image slightly more than the WD Live TV media player on the composite inputs did.

Based on that, I'm going to go with 8/9 SAR (4:3 [1.333:1] DAR), as that best matches the DVD's DAR.

Unfortunately, I noticed the faint dark horizontal lines are showing up in certain scenes in the MKV when played on the WD Live TV; same deal with an Xvid AVI encode (they don't show up at all when the MKV or AVI is played in MPC-HC on my PC). The original DVD played on the Philips DVD player doesn't have those lines whatsoever either.

I'm almost out of options. I could try burning the ISO to another DVD and hope it doesn't freeze in my DVD player, but it is double-layer (DVD-9), and my burner doesn't make very good burns on the blank DL DVDs that I have. I can make excellent burns on the blank SL DVDs that I have, but the ISO is 6.15 GB with everything stripped out of it except for the English 2-channel 192 kbps AC-3 audio stream, and I think using e.g. DVD Shrink to fit it to a DVD-5 would result in noticeable quality loss, particularly during high-motion scenes. My DVD player is one of the early Divx/Xvid players, so I could make an Xvid AVI and burn it to a disc, and see how that looks.

[hello_hello]

10/11 is included in the H.264 and Blu-Ray standard, while 8/9 is not included. Picky Blu-Ray standalones may reject to play non-standard SAR's or perhaps play it at their default DAR which means either 4:3 or 16:9. SW players are more flexible in this respect.

I could see when encoding for Bluray you'd want to stick to standard resolutions and aspect ratios, but when it comes to playing MKVs with even standalone Bluray players, in my experience they either obey the aspect ratio or they don't.

Most of the time I crop when encoding, as I suspect do most people, and even if you don't resize at all you're still no longer using a standard resolution for Bluray. Might as well use the original SAR too. I know there's only a tiny difference, but still....

[hello_hello]

Based on that, I'm going to go with 8/9 SAR (4:3 [1.333:1] DAR), as that best matches the DVD's DAR.

Well the difference is only about 2.5% so it's not worth getting too excited about. I can't explain the difference between the WD and the DVD player in respect to aspect ratio.

If in doubt, I try to find a straight-on shot of something round. A clock face, a car wheel, that sort of thing. Then I try each aspect ratio to see which one makes the round object look round. Quite a few times I've taken screenshots and opened them in an image viewer and drawn circles around them as it can be hard to tell.... your brain quickly adjusts and often makes things which should be round look round even when they're not.
Mind you sometimes there's nothing which would obviously be "round" in the video so you just have to guess, but if anybody's come across 4:3 DVDs which aren't ITU I'd be keen to know as I'm not sure I have.

For the dark lines problem.... maybe you could split off a small sample and upload it somewhere for someone else to look at?

[MaximRecoil]

For the dark lines problem.... maybe you could split off a small sample and upload it somewhere for someone else to look at?

Well, for me the dark lines only happen on certain players:

With the original DVD and/or its 1:1 ISO:

PowerDVD 4.0, Media Player Classic 6.4.9.1, and my WD Live TV hardware media player show the dark lines in certain scenes, while Media Player Classic Home Cinema 1.7.6 and my Philips DVP642 do not show the lines whatsoever.

With the MKV encode:

That old version of PowerDVD won't play it, and my Philips DVD player can't play it either. Media Player Classic 6.4.9.1 and Media Player Classic Home Cinema 1.7.6 do not show the lines whatsoever (and neither did VirtualDub's or MeGUI's preview windows when the D2V file was loaded in them), but the WD Live TV shows the lines.

This is a PowerDVD screenshot (playing the original DVD) in which you can see the lines:

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/4645/horizontallines.jpg

And like I said, those lines don't show when playing the DVD on my Philips DVD player, or on my PC with Media Player Classic Home Cinema. But in any event, if you want to have a look at the original DVD (which is the ultimate source of the issue, albeit a player-dependent issue), here is a short clip of that scene cut from the DVD (1:1, i.e., no re-compression, ISO image; either mount in a virtual drive or extract to a folder):

https://app.box.com/s/oyuzhr23zgn8rw36p6ph

These DVDs are the Star Wars original trilogy unaltered theatrical release bonus discs which were included with the 2006 "SE" DVD boxset (and in a 2008 re-release of the boxset). All 3 of them have the lines when played in certain players, to varying degrees (and none of them have the lines when played in other players); TESB seems to be the worst.

The release was hamfisted in the first place because of George Lucas' bizarre desire to bury the theatrical releases of these movies. So they just threw whatever they had lying around onto DVDs, which really didn't cost them anything. Releasing 4:3 letterboxed DVDs in 2006 was absurd (it would have been acceptable by late 1990s standards). Plus, they are heavily DNR'd "LaserDisc ports", i.e., they are sourced from a D1 or D2 LaserDisc master which was created in 1993. So they are crap, but they are the only official releases of the original unaltered trilogy on DVD.

I did run Star Wars through DVD Shrink, and the results were excellent. I can't tell the difference compared to the original DVD. Here are some screenshots from a high-motion scene (fast moving scenery plus an explosion):

This first screenshot is from the original DVD:

http://i.imgur.com/jkQiQdf.png

This next screenshot is from the DVD Shrink DVD-5 version, ~70% compression, no deep analysis or AEC:

http://i.imgur.com/cykdN24.png

The next one is with deep analysis and the "maximum sharpness" AEC option:

http://i.imgur.com/74YISto.png

I can't tell the difference between any of them. Even 2 of the screenshots (the original DVD and the one with deep analysis and AEC) are identical in file size (lossless PNGs). The screenshot from the one done quickly with no deep analysis or AEC is one KB larger in file size. I even scrolled rapidly through all three of them in an image viewer, making it like a fast animation, and it just looked like a static image.

If you add a screenshot from the MKV to the mix ...

http://i.imgur.com/SNdofNG.png

... you will see a slight flutter on that image when rapidly scrolling through them, because it is the most different (which is reflected by the significantly smaller file size of the PNG screenshot, as compared to the other 3).

So I think these DVD Shrink versions burned to SL DVDs and played on my Philips DVD player will work out fine.

[Sharc]

My conclusions from your uploaded sample:
- The frame resolution (including the borders) is 720x480 which is NTSC DVD compliant.
- The movie picture (without the borders) is 712x276 pixels
- Applying ITU PAR of 4320:4739 displays the movie picture with a aspect ratio of 0.91158x712/276=2.352 which is VERY close to 2.35 which is a standard movie aspect ratio.
Hence I am pretty sure that the PAR of the DVD movie is according to ITU, and the full picture (including borders) should then be displayed as 1.367 rather than 1.33333.
If the full frame (including borders) is forced by the playback device to 4:3 then the movie picture is actually slightly horizontally squeezed by 2.5%. But who cares....

P.S.
The mpeg4 10/11 is a very good approximation to the ITU. So if you encode with x264 I would suggest to use --sar 10/11 because whenever a playback device will follow the --sar the movie will be displayed correctly.

[sneaker_ger]

With the MKV encode:

That old version of PowerDVD won't play it, and my Philips DVD player can't play it either. Media Player Classic 6.4.9.1 and Media Player Classic Home Cinema 1.7.6 do not show the lines whatsoever (and neither did VirtualDub's or MeGUI's preview windows when the D2V file was loaded in them), but the WD Live TV shows the lines.
It could be an artifact resulting from wrong telecine handling. If you encode to MKV you should do IVTC so the resulting file has 23.976 fps, not 29.94. The lines are likely to disappear then. Search the forum for IVTC if you need more info.

[hello_hello]

Do the lines come and go in a pattern? I'm wondering if it's something to do with the 3:2 pulldown. I live in PAL-Land so I'm far from and expert on NTSC (edit: I see sneaker_ger beat me to that one).

I'll confess if I was re-encoding the video in question, I'd probably break all the "rules". Given it's wide-screen on a 4:3 frame, I'd be cropping, so when it's displayed on a 16:9 screen you don't get borders top and bottom and down each side. It's never going to look wonderful given the low resolution, but....

And given I'd be copping anyway, I'd just resize to square pixels and be done with it. A bit of noise removal mightn't hurt either, although I only had a quick play there and what I did blurred a bit.

My money's on it being ITU 4:3. There's two encoded versions here, both resized to square pixels. One assumes an ITU 4:3 input aspect ratio (resized to 700x296), the other just 4:3 (700x304). They're both 23.976fps progressive. Any lines on playback?

http://speedy.sh/Se55U/samples.zip

PS. If you cropped the same way I did and encoded anamorphically, the remaining picture area would be 700x270 (I cropped a total of 20 pixels from the sides and 210 from the height). You'd still set a 10/11 or 8/9 SAR.

[MaximRecoil]

It could be an artifact resulting from wrong telecine handling. If you encode to MKV you should do IVTC so the resulting file has 23.976 fps, not 29.94. The lines are likely to disappear then. Search the forum for IVTC if you need more info.

The lines aren't interlacing artifacts. They look different than interlacing artifacts, plus they show up in the original DVD when played on certain players, but not on certain other player, which is the same thing the MKV does. Here's what I typed about IVTC earlier in this thread:

The DVD is film-source, so I had "Field Operation > Forced Film" checked in DGIndex when I had it generate the D2V file, which inverse telecined it to 23.976 (24000/1001) frames per second, leaving only the original full/progressive frames.

Interlacing artifacts, which happen when you encode natively interlaced content (video) or NTSC film-source content that hasn't been IVTC'd, get hard-coded into the video stream, thus they show up regardless of the player you use. I made my fair share of interlace-artifact-filled encodes when I first tried encoding my DVDs to AVIs back in the early '00s, using FlaskMPEG (remember that program?) and Divx 5.02. When I discovered DVD2AVI (now known as DGIndex), AviSynth, and VirtualDub, in 2003 or so, which solved that problem.

[MaximRecoil]

Do the lines come and go in a pattern? I'm wondering if it's something to do with the 3:2 pulldown. I live in PAL-Land so I'm far from and expert on NTSC (edit: I see sneaker_ger beat me to that one).

They do come and go, but there isn't really a pattern to it. In some scenes they are more visible than in others, and even in the scenes in which they are visible, they fluctuate in visibility. If you download Media Player Classic 6.4.9.1 and watch the clip I posted, you might see the lines too. They have nothing to do with interlacing. Here's the screenshot from PowerDVD (playing the original DVD) of the lines again:

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/4645/horizontallines.jpg

On the other hand, interlacing artifacts look like this:

http://i.imgur.com/Qu2ycB8.jpg

You will see them in motion scenes surrounding the object in motion; in this case, they are around R2D2 as he is being flung out of the water. You can see this on any video-source DVD material, or NTSC film-source DVD material which hasn't been IVTC'd. In this case, in order to make that example screen shot, I used the TESB clip I linked to in an earlier post, generated a D2V file for it without checking the "forced film" (IVTC) option, opened it in VirtualDub via an AviSynth script, and scrolled through it to find the interlacing artifacts.

I'll confess if I was re-encoding the video in question, I'd probably break all the rules. Given it's wide-screen on a 4:3 frame, I'd be cropping, so when it's displayed on a 16:9 screen you don't get borders top and bottom and down each side. It's never going to look wonderful given the low resolution, but....

And given I'd be copping anyway, I'd just resize to square pixels and be done with it. A bit of noise removal mightn't hurt either, although I only had a quick play there and what I did blurred a bit.

My TV is a 4:3 standard resolution CRT, which is ideal for a 4:3 DVD. When encoding a DVD to an e.g. AVI, I normally crop the image and then resize using Lanczos4 to a mod16 resolution which is close to its intended aspect ratio. In the case of this movie for example, I'd normally crop it and resize it to 640x272, like so:

Crop(4, 104, -4, -104)
Lanczos4Resize(640,272)

I do this simply because I normally don't want to waste any of the bitrate on encoding the black bars which make up the letterboxing. There is no other reason for me to be concerned about it because both my PC monitor and TV are 4:3 CRTs, though my PC monitor is capable of much high resolution of course (1920x1440). I am a diehard CRT fan.

In the case of this MKV encode, I simply wanted to mimic the original DVD, without concern for the file size. And another reason I wanted to keep the original letterboxing in there is because I hard-coded the alien language subtitles into it (Greedo in Star Wars and Jabba the Hutt in Return of the Jedi), and without letterboxing, hard subs have to go onto the movie picture itself. That's okay I suppose; that's obviously how it was done on these movies' original film prints which were shown in the theaters, but I'd rather have them down below the picture, like so:

http://i.imgur.com/SBsaCMy.jpg

Instead of:

http://i.imgur.com/2xGfVSI.jpg

My money's on it being ITU 4:3. There's two encoded versions here, both resized to square pixels. One assumes an ITU 4:3 input aspect ratio (resized to 700x296), the other just 4:3 (700x304). They're both 23.976fps progressive. Any lines on playback?

http://speedy.sh/Se55U/samples.zip

With my encodes (whether Xvid AVIs or x264 MKVs), rather than the original DVD or its ISO image, I don't see lines in any of the software media players I've tried on my PC. However, I do see the lines on my WD Live TV hardware media player which is connected to my TV (and that also shows the lines when playing the DVD ISO image). The same applies to your encodes. Note that this issue is unique to these three Star Wars trilogy DVDs, which is why I consider it to be so bizarre. I've encoded hundreds of video files in the past dozen years or so, and I've never encountered anything like this before. What makes it even more bizarre is that the problem is rooted in the original DVDs themselves, and I don't even have a wild guess as to why.

[TheSkiller]

Can you please cut out a short sample (like 10 seconds or so) of the original DVD VOB where the lines show up using DGIndex (mark and demux to m2v) and upload it? I would like to take a look at it.

Edit. Ooops, sorry, just noticed you already uploaded a sample...



I've read posts where people have claimed their HDMI DVD player outputs an ITU aspect ratio over the composite out but exactly 4:3 or 16:9 if the output is HDMI.That's not unusual at all. For analog SD output players stick to the only existing general formula of sampling 720 pixels at 13.5 Mhz (or rather multiples of it) which results in 702 of the original 720 pixels making up the active analog picture of 52 µs in PAL (and likewise but with different numbers in NTSC). This means composite out is always ITU while with anything pre-upscaled by the player (like scaling to 1080p) it really varies – I've seen ITU and non-ITU via upscaled HDMI.

To be precise, if a player is really strict, for upscaling it should stick to the Sequence_Display_Extension (SDE). If the encoded frame is 720 pixels wide and the SDE is set to 704 the image must be scaled according to ITU; if the SDE is set to 720 or not present, the image is supposed to be scaled straight to the specified DAR of either 4:3 or 16:9. This is, however, not in accordance with the behaviour for analog SD output which is fixed to 13.5 MHz, so it's basically useless this way round. So the SDE's use is to flag 720 ITU content and to make upscaling players scale accordingly, if all goes well.
VLC player actually does take the SDE into account, which makes it the only software player to my knowledge that plays ITU 720x576/480 properly out of the box on a PC (if the SDE is set of course).
Problem is, no one really sets the SDE properly.

[Sharc]

...To be precise, if a player is really strict, for upscaling it should stick to the Sequence_Display_Extension (SDE). If the encoded frame is 720 pixels wide and the SDE is set to 704 the image must be scaled according to ITU; if the SDE is set to 720 or not present, the image is supposed to be scaled straight to the specified DAR of either 4:3 or 16:9. This is, however, not in accordance with the behaviour for analog SD output which is fixed to 13.5 MHz, so it's basically useless this way round. So the SDE's use is to flag 720 ITU content and to make upscaling players scale accordingly, if all goes well.
VLC player actually does take the SDE into account, which makes it the only software player to my knowledge that plays ITU 720x576/480 properly out of the box on a PC (if the SDE is set of course).
Problem is, no one really sets the SDE properly.
Yes, unfortunately. The poster's sample indicates in the "sequence_header()" a "horizintal_size_value" of 720, and in the "sequence_extension()" a "horizontal_size_extension" of 0, means undefined. For the reason given here (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1692812&postcount=20)ITU seems however most likely IMO.
Moreover, in addition to the information possibly found in the stream itself, containers may contain conflicting information, and in such case it's left to the player which one to believe, AFAIK.

[MaximRecoil]

Has anyone tried watching the sample clip I linked to (https://app.box.com/s/oyuzhr23zgn8rw36p6ph) on Media Player Classic 6.4.9.1 (http://filehippo.com/download_media_player_classic) yet? I'm wondering if other people see the lines on that player.

Does anyone have a guess as to why some players show the lines and others don't?

[hello_hello]

Has anyone tried watching the sample clip I linked to (https://app.box.com/s/oyuzhr23zgn8rw36p6ph) on Media Player Classic 6.4.9.1 (http://filehippo.com/download_media_player_classic) yet? I'm wondering if other people see the lines on that player.

Does anyone have a guess as to why some players show the lines and others don't?

I tried it. The video displays fine.
Mind you I recall having problems in the past with MPC/MPC-HC and DVD video in respect to de-interlacing. I think I always used to disable the internal mpeg2 filter (before LAV filters) and used ffdshow instead, because the internal filter's de-interlacing was really bad.
That's probably unrelated though. Maybe check your video card's settings to see if it's got any de-interlacing/IVTC options enabled.

[hello_hello]

My TV is a 4:3 standard resolution CRT, which is ideal for a 4:3 DVD. When encoding a DVD to an e.g. AVI, I normally crop the image and then resize using Lanczos4 to a mod16 resolution which is close to its intended aspect ratio. In the case of this movie for example, I'd normally crop it and resize it to 640x272, like so:

Crop(4, 104, -4, -104)
Lanczos4Resize(640,272)

I do this simply because I normally don't want to waste any of the bitrate on encoding the black bars which make up the letterboxing. There is no other reason for me to be concerned about it because both my PC monitor and TV are 4:3 CRTs, though my PC monitor is capable of much high resolution of course (1920x1440). I am a diehard CRT fan.

I'm a die hard CRT fan too. I'm viewing this page using a 22" CRT. I don't like LCDs much.
Having said that, I replaced my CRT TV with a 51" Plasma a couple of years ago and never looked back. The downside though.... now I'm fully aware of how average Xvid is and how ordinary those 640x272 encodes look.

That's okay I suppose; that's obviously how it was done on these movies' original film prints which were shown in the theaters, but I'd rather have them down below the picture, like so:

Each to their own. On a larger screen I prefer subtitles over the the video as you're not having to keep "looking down" and taking your eyes off the action.
You could reduce the size of the bars to just enough to hold the text and maybe make the total aspect ratio closer to 16:9 that way. Mind you, you can always re-encode it later anyway, but my concern when encoding 4:3 DVDs with widescreen video would be to avoid it looking like this when running fullscreen on a 16:9 TV.

http://imgur.com/HikqQSh.jpg

With my encodes (whether Xvid AVIs or x264 MKVs), rather than the original DVD or its ISO image, I don't see lines in any of the software media players I've tried on my PC. However, I do see the lines on my WD Live TV hardware media player which is connected to my TV (and that also shows the lines when playing the DVD ISO image). The same applies to your encodes.

I can't explain any of that. I'd have assumed the WD player isn't all that great, but you said it only happens when playing these DVDs or encodes of these DVDs, or if you use PowerDVD or MPC with these DVDs. I don't understand that.
Does it happen when viewing the video on your PC monitor with PowerDVD or MPC or only when you're viewing it on the TV? Is your PC connected to the TV?

[hello_hello]

@ TheSkiller,

Thanks for all the info!

[MaximRecoil]

I tried it. The video displays fine.
Mind you I recall having problems in the past with MPC/MPC-HC and DVD video in respect to de-interlacing. I think I always used to disable the internal mpeg2 filter (before LAV filters) and used ffdshow instead, because the internal filter's de-interlacing was really bad.
That's probably unrelated though. Maybe check your video card's settings to see if it's got any de-interlacing/IVTC options enabled.

In my case, the lines show up in MPC, PowerDVD 4.0, and Windows Media Player 9. The lines do not show up in the current versions of MPC-HC or VLC media player. I wonder if these older players which show the lines all use the same decoder. I vaguely recall something about certain media players won't play DVDs until you've installed something like PowerDVD (on Windows XP at least). I wonder if that means that once PowerDVD is installed, those other media players use its decoder. If that's the case, it would explain why some of my media players show the exact same lines as that old version of PowerDVD that I have installed.

Of course, the real problem is that my WD TV Live (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD_TV#WD_TV_Live_Streaming_.28WD_TV_Live_3rd_Gen.29) shows the lines, which means it is probably using an MPEG-2 decoder similar or identical to the one that PowerDVD 4.0 uses.

[MaximRecoil]

I'm a die hard CRT fan too. I'm viewing this page using a 22" CRT. I don't like LCDs much.
Having said that, I replaced my CRT TV with a 51" Plasma a couple of years ago and never looked back. The downside though.... now I'm fully aware of how average Xvid is and how ordinary those 640x272 encodes look.

My PC monitor is also 22", a Mitsubishi Diamondtron. I love it, but it has been in pretty much constant use for about 10 years and has lost some brightness. It is still fine for internet use, but for watching certain movies or viewing certain images, I have to increase brightness through software in order to see the dark areas better. At some point I need to find another one that is closer to new.

My TV is a run of the mill 32" RCA standard resolution (~15 kHz) CRT which I bought new in 2006, and since I rarely use it, it still has a beautiful picture. It is perfect for classic video game consoles (e.g., Atari 2600/7800, NES, SNES, PlayStation), and for DVDs. As a bonus, the common mod16 Xvid encodes, e.g., 640x480 (1.33:1), 512x384 (1.33:1), 640x272 (2.35:1), 624x336 (1.85:1), 624x352 (1.77:1), look good on it too. I can watch HD encodes on it via my WD TV Live, and they look the same as DVDs or Xvid encodes, because the WD TV Live generates a ~480i NTSC video signal from them to send over the composite outputs.

I just wish CRTs could be made in truly large sizes without being massive and weighing a ton. There are too many aspects of a CRT picture that I love for me to abandon them for a digital display.

Each to their own. On a larger screen I prefer subtitles over the the video as you're not having to keep "looking down" and taking your eyes off the action.

You could reduce the size of the bars to just enough to hold the text and maybe make the total aspect ratio closer to 16:9 that way. Mind you, you can always re-encode it later anyway, but my concern when encoding 4:3 DVDs with widescreen video would be to avoid it looking like this when running fullscreen on a 16:9 TV.

http://imgur.com/HikqQSh.jpg

Yes, pillarboxing in addition to letterboxing (AKA: windowboxing) sucks, but like I said, it isn't an issue for me, as I don't own any widescreen displays. I wouldn't even want to watch these particular DVDs (nor any other 4:3 DVDs) on a widescreen display, unless it was on a widescreen multisync CRT display, which is more forgiving of low resolutions and the effects of "zooming in" to get rid of the pillarboxing. My brother had a JVC HV-M300VSU (http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/specs.jsp?model_id=MDL100107&feature_id=03) widescreen CRT display, which retailed for ~$4,500 when new, and that thing was simply brilliant. I've never seen a better picture on any display in my life, and it looked good with practically everything you threw at it, including 640x272 Xvid encodes. The only downside was its relatively small size (30"). We also hooked a Sega Dreamcast with RGB output (480p) to it and it looked amazing.

I can't explain any of that. I'd have assumed the WD player isn't all that great, but you said it only happens when playing these DVDs or encodes of these DVDs, or if you use PowerDVD or MPC with these DVDs. I don't understand that.
Does it happen when viewing the video on your PC monitor with PowerDVD or MPC or only when you're viewing it on the TV? Is your PC connected to the TV?

My PC is not connected to my TV, it is only connected to my 22" CRT PC monitor. The only devices connected to my 32" CRT TV are a Philips DVP642 DVD player (which will also play certain types of media files burned to a data disc, e.g., Xvid, Divx, WMV, MPG, and so on) connected via 480i component (YPbPr), and a WD TV Live (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD_TV#WD_TV_Live_Streaming_.28WD_TV_Live_3rd_Gen.29) media player connected via A/V cables (composite video). The Philips DVD player does not show the lines whatsoever when playing the original DVD, and if not for the brief freezing problems here and there on all 3 of the DVDs, I would simply watch them that way and be happy, because the picture looks great. The only thing which could possibly make it look better is if I had a 4:3 CRT which also had component inputs, but could sync to ~30 kHz instead of only ~15 kHz (i.e., something like a 36" Sony Trinitron Wega). In that case I could watch the DVD with progressive scan enabled (480p instead of 480i). That's an absolute best case scenario for watching a 4:3 DVD in my opinion.

[hello_hello]

I still use XP and yes, I'm fairly sure it requires third party software to play DVDs, although I can't remember if that applies to the whole DVD video structure or also to opening vob files individually, but maybe you're onto something.
That old version of MPC you linked to.... it opened the vob file from your sample but the "Open DVD" menu doesn't work for me. It says "can't find DVD directory" without browsing for one. When I try to open your sample with WMP it doesn't show any DVD files unless I tell it to "show all files" in which case it'll open the video.

You could try installing ffdshow and using it for mpeg2 decoding with MPC and/or WMP. If you can decode with it and the lines go away it'd point to a decoder problem, although when it comes to the WD player, that'd still be a mystery, especially if it does the same thing for the x264 encoded versions, given they were cropped and resized to square pixels.

[hello_hello]

My PC monitor is also 22", a Mitsubishi Diamondtron. I love it, but it has been in pretty much constant use for about 10 years and has lost some brightness. It is still fine for internet use, but for watching certain movies or viewing certain images, I have to increase brightness through software in order to see the dark areas better. At some point I need to find another one that is closer to new.

I had about six of them. Mine are Compaq's with a Trinitron tube. There's one connected to both the PCs in this room and I've got two (maybe three) spares in the shed. Two of them died this year. One went all "blue-ish" while the other one stopped displaying an image fullscreen (it was like the electron gun would "stick" halfway up the screen) so I'm down to two spares.
I bought them all quite cheap years ago when everyone was virtually giving CRTs away to replace them with crappy looking LCDs (they were mostly pretty crappy at the time). So hopefully I'll still be in CRT, PC monitor-land for a while.

I think there's also three Samsung 21" CRTs buried in the shed. I bought them for young relatives years ago but they were eventually replaced with LCDs, or the PCs were replaced with laptops. I kept the monitors, but they don't look as good as the Trinitron tubes. I'm not sure I'll ever use them now.

16:9 isn't a great aspect ratio for a PC monitor, in my opinion. Unless all you do is watch video, or flip one on it's side. 16:10 was a bit more sensible, but I don't think anyone makes them any more and I'd imagine the same applies to 4:3 LCDs.

I've still got old Xvid AVIs which looked fine on my CRT TV, but they're pretty damn ordinary even on my CRT PC monitor, which is much smaller. In the case of CRT TVs, I think it's often what they can't display which makes them look good, if that makes sense. I really couldn't tell an Xvid/AVI encode from the original DVD using my CRT TV, but viewed on the Plasma I certainly can. With the Plasma I can see the difference between VGA and HDMI easily enough. Not that VGA looks bad, it looks quite good, but it also looks like HDMI when the TV's noise filtering is enabled. There's a little less fine picture detail.... and a little less noise.

[MaximRecoil]

I still use XP and yes, I'm fairly sure it requires third party software to play DVDs, although I can't remember if that applies to the whole DVD video structure or also to opening vob files individually, but maybe you're onto something.
That old version of MPC you linked to.... it opened the vob file from your sample but the "Open DVD" menu doesn't work for me. It says "can't find DVD directory" without browsing for one. When I try to open your sample with WMP it doesn't show any DVD files unless I tell it to "show all files" in which case it'll open the video.

You could try installing ffdshow and using it for mpeg2 decoding with MPC and/or WMP. If you can decode with it and the lines go away it'd point to a decoder problem, although when it comes to the WD player, that'd still be a mystery, especially if it does the same thing for the x264 encoded versions, given they were cropped and resized to square pixels.

I enabled libavcodec for the MPEG-2 video decoder in ffdshow, and now there are no lines in regular MPC. Windows Media Player 9 apparently doesn't get along with ffdshow at all, at least not with regard to MPEG-2 decoding, because all I get is a garbled screen with it. MPC-HC apparently ignores ffdshow, and uses its own internal decoders instead, because the ffdshow system tray icons don't come up when I open the DVD ISO image with it. The same applies to VLC.

So, that explains the difference, i.e., regular MPC and Windows Media Player 9 must normally be using a common system MPEG-2 decoder, in all likelihood the one that PowerDVD installs, which is why they all have the same lines on these particular DVDs. It follows that the WD TV Live media player (which is essentially just a small, specialized Linux computer) is using an MPEG-2 decoder that is similar or identical to the one that PowerDVD 4.0 uses.

By the way, is there any way to force MPC-HC to use ffdshow decoders? I especially want it to call on ffdshow decoders for typical media files such as Xvid AVI, x264 MKV, and so on, the same as regular MPC does. I like the real-time processing options that ffdshow offers, such as brightness, contrast, levels, etc.

[hello_hello]

Well at least you might be part way to solving the mystery....

By the way, is there any way to force MPC-HC to use ffdshow decoders? I especially want it to call on ffdshow decoders for typical media files such as Xvid AVI, x264 MKV, and so on, the same as regular MPC does. I like the real-time processing options that ffdshow offers, such as brightness, contrast, levels, etc.

MPC-HC: View/Options/Internal Filters.
Just disable the appropriate transform filter. If ffdshow doesn't take over, you can try increasing it's merit (under directshow control in ffdshow's settings) or you can add ffdshow as an external filter in MPC-HC's options. That should get MPC-HC to bypass the usual directshow merit system for deciding on which codec to use.

MadVR (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228) would be worth a look. It has colour, brightness and gamma adjustments etc, and it's pretty good at getting the colorimetry and levels correct. Or you can change them or set custom levels. MadVR is also a pretty good renderer.
Once it's installed you can select it as a renderer in MPC-HC and by default it displays an icon in the system tray which you can use to adjust it when it's running. It can be taxing on a video card but mine's an old 8600GT and it seems to cope with the default settings, although I think I changed the resizers to something softer than the defaults.... just personal taste.

MPC-HC also has it's own brightness and contrast settings under Miscellaneous in it's options. It's probably not as convenient as ffdshow but might allow you to continue using hardware decoding (as opposed to ffdshow and CPU decoding). They'll probably only work if your video card is set to allow it. In my case if I have the Nvidia control panel set to "use player settings" for displaying video they work. When set to "use Nvidia settings" they don't.
I have the video card set to "use Nvidia settings" to expand video to full range levels (that way they should be correct regardless of the player being used) so the MPC-HC colour/brightness settings don't work.
I'm not sure if they work with MadVR either.

[MaximRecoil]

I've still got old Xvid AVIs which looked fine on my CRT TV, but they're pretty damn ordinary even on my CRT PC monitor, which is much smaller. In the case of CRT TVs, I think it's often what they can't display which makes them look good, if that makes sense. I really couldn't tell an Xvid/AVI encode from the original DVD using my CRT TV, but viewed on the Plasma I certainly can. With the Plasma I can see the difference between VGA and HDMI easily enough. Not that VGA looks bad, it looks quite good, but it also looks like HDMI when the TV's noise filtering is enabled. There's a little less fine picture detail.... and a little less noise.

The reason that old Xvid AVIs look good on 15 kHz CRT TVs is because of the relatively large dot pitch of the phosphors and the relatively coarse RGB triad shadow mask. These two things combine to make for the world's greatest natural antialiaser. This is the reason that the Pac-Man sprite on an original arcade machine's monitor (which uses the same type of CRT that a standard 15 kHz TV uses; the difference being that its chassis has RGB inputs and no TV tuner) looks nice and round, but it looks like it was made with Lego blocks if you view it on a modern CRT or LCD monitor. Here's a comparison I made a while ago, using a picture of my Ikari Warriors (1986) arcade machine screen (new Happ Vision Pro 15 kHz RGB arcade monitor) vs. a screenshot from MAME (an arcade game emulator which runs the original arcade code on a PC) - link (http://i.imgur.com/F1Cz4Op.png).

The 15 kHz CRT makes those ultra low-resolution graphics look more natural/organic. The intended effect of the metallic sheen on the rifle cartridge and the IKARI text comes through, as well as the shading effect on the two characters. A high resolution PC monitor on the other hand (whether it be a CRT or LCD), reveals that there is nothing there but razor sharp square pixels, like a crude rendition in an old version of MS Paint. It is flat, lifeless, and ugly.

Old Xvid AVIs don't look so great on my PC monitor either, though it helps (in my opinion) to reduce my desktop resolution to something which is close to or the same as the resolution of the video file (one of the advantages of multisync CRTs is that you can do that without introducing scaling effects like with a fixed-resolution digital display). For example, for a 640x272 video, I reduce my desktop resolution to 640x480. That way it fills the screen horizontally in its native resolution, no scaling/resizing needed. I can still tell the difference between a ~700 MB, 640 x whatever Xvid AVI and a DVD though on this monitor. The DVD has more detail, especially noticeable on film-source DVDs (e.g., film grain).

As for my brother's JVC HV-M300VSU, it just beat all; everything we threw at it looked great on it. Some real talent went into engineering that thing, and it is a shame that it is now pretty much a lost/forgotten technology.

[hello_hello]

Here's a comparison I made a while ago, using a picture of my Ikari Warriors (1986) arcade machine screen (new Happ Vision Pro 15 kHz RGB arcade monitor) vs. a screenshot from MAME (an arcade game emulator which runs the original arcade code on a PC) - link (http://i.imgur.com/F1Cz4Op.png).

The 15 kHz CRT makes those ultra low-resolution graphics look more natural/organic. The intended effect of the metallic sheen on the rifle cartridge and the IKARI text comes through, as well as the shading effect on the two characters. A high resolution PC monitor on the other hand (whether it be a CRT or LCD), reveals that there is nothing there but razor sharp square pixels, like a crude rendition in an old version of MS Paint. It is flat, lifeless, and ugly..

So I guess if I said I preferred the one on the right we'd not be in agreement there? :scared:

I do understand your point though.
The 3.5mm to 6.35mm stereo jack/headphone adaptor in the pics..... is that a rifle cartridge? ;)
As you might imagine, games have never been my thing....

[MaximRecoil]

Well at least you might be part way to solving the mystery....

MPC-HC: View/Options/Internal Filters.
Just disable the appropriate transform filter. If ffdshow doesn't take over, you can try increasing it's merit (under directshow control in ffdshow's settings) or you can add ffdshow as an external filter in MPC-HC's options. That should get MPC-HC to bypass the usual directshow merit system for deciding on which codec to use.

That did the trick, thanks. The thing I like about the ffdshow processing options is that I can just click the system tray icon and uncheck the processing to disable it without affecting the settings for when I want to use them next time; quick, easy, and convenient.

[MaximRecoil]

So I guess if I said I preferred the one on the right we'd not be in agreement there? :scared:

Definitely not. The CRT image reflects the graphic designer's intentions, i.e., the shading and sheen effects he was going for don't work at all in raw razor-sharp pixel form, as you get from neatly filling in blocks on a grid, and as is displayed on a high-resolution monitor. This is what it looks like in motion and from a slight distance (watch in 720p and full screen to get the full video height, though my camera isn't nearly good enough in video mode to do it justice):

http://youtu.be/-lijJ5hKizo

I love the phosphor glow of a CRT in the dark with strong tube.

[hello_hello]

That did the trick, thanks. The thing I like about the ffdshow processing options is that I can just click the system tray icon and uncheck the processing to disable it without affecting the settings for when I want to use them next time; quick, easy, and convenient.

And being able to save a set up as a Profile/Preset and switch between them the same way. I'm not sure if you see Profiles listed in the right click menu unless there's more than one, but when there is you do.
That way, as well as enabling/disabling filters, you can also change the filters and settings completely while still keeping the previous filters and their settings intact. :)