madVR, Nvidia Optimus and Maxwell (850M)

[Ceremony]

I got a fantastic new laptop with a GTX850M (and Intel HD4400). I setup mpc like i did on my desktop (lav+ffdshow+reclock+xyvobsub+madvr) and configured the Optimus system to default to the nvidia card on playback.

This is where it gets strange:
The card sticks to low clockspeeds when playing a few seconds or minutes after playback started, regardless what the GPU usage is. This causes frame drops (render and present queue not getting filled fast enough) obviously. for some reason however are the render(8ms) and present(15ms) stats way below the movies frame interval (41.71ms), yet unable to fill the queue. Also the present time seems unreasonably large, especially when compared to my desktop times, were its mostly below 1ms.

Setting "maximum performance" in the nvidia control panel gets me smooth playback and roughly halfs the render(4ms) and present(8ms) times. but as I said, present is still unreasonably large.

madVR settings do not seem to have any impact on the present time either. When running on intel HD, i get even lower numbers: 2ms for render and 0.14ms for present.

whats wrong with Optimus?

P.S. GeForce 340.43

[Anime Viewer]

What GPU are you using in your desktop?
How did you tell it to default to the nvidia? Did you rename the mpc-hc exe (if you're using hc as opposed to BE)?
What setting are you using in madVR? Did you enable any NNEDI3 options (like image doubling or image upscaling)? (which will add a registry key for the nvidia in the madVR area).

I find it odd that your present queues are higher than your render queues. For most people (myself included its the opposite).

Optimus isn't a problem on my system with a Nvidia GTX 680m (also 340.43 on 64-bit Windows 8.1) and Intel HD4000 (10.18.10.3621). Something in the Nvidia or Intel settings may be different between the GTX850m and GTX680m defaults or between the Intel HD4400 and Intel HD4000 defaults.

If you go into the Intel Graphics Properties control panel and 3d what is your checked settings there?

In Nvidia control panel what features do you have listed?
The 680m for example has settings for:
Ambiant Occlusion, Anisotropic filtering, Antaliasing - FXAA, Antaliasing - Gamma correction, Antaliasing - Mode, Antaliasing - Setting, Antaliasing - Transparency, CUDA - GPUs, Maxium pre-rendered frames, Multi-display/mixed-GPU acceleration, Power management mode, Shader Cache, Texture filtering - Anisotropic sample optimization, Texture filtering - Negative LOD bias, Texture filtering - Quality, Texture filtering - Trilinear optimization, Threaded optimization, Triple buffering, and Vertical sync. All are set to global settings, and the only global setting I've altered from default is to turn on Triple buffering. If you have other options in addition to those you might want to try disabling them for mpc (since mpc or madVR may not be compatible with any new options/features beyond those).

Edit: forgot to mention ffdshow is usually not recommend to be used with madVR/LAV. I recommend you try uninstalling ffdshow, reboot, and see if that makes a difference.

[Ceremony]

On my desktop I'm running an underclock GTX480 (from 700MHz to 500MHz). GTX850M raw power should be pretty close to my desktop thanks to the underclock the actually, though I didnt run any direct comparisons yet.

As for what options im using:
It doesnt really matter what I pick. Be it exclusive fullscreen mode, NNEDI on/off, dithering or upscaling method... all result in unusually high presentation latencies...
If you want me to try a certain config, tell me what to set and I'll test, whether they change anything. However, the issue isnt really the rendering latency (while still being higher than intels), but the presentation latency.

As for how I make sure its using nvidia: one can rightclick applications and force which gfx to use. I also manually set mpcbe in the nvidia control panel (had to manually add the exe there) to use the nvidia card. I did not change any other options in the control panel (globablly or just for mpcbe) aside from playing with the power option. As I said, its a newly setup laptop, so much much cleaner than windows desktop (roughly 2 years since the last format). once I get home, ill clean the nvidia drivers once more (reinstall with guru3ds driver cleaner tool), just to make sure, alright?

I am using ffdshow for deinterlacing and fixing shitty home made videos (loads of nice filters). i also use it to manually mix down to stereo. I highly doubt that this is the cause of the issue, as I am only processing the RAW decoded content it gets from lav. I'll just remove them from the filter queue i set within mpcbe, and report back, whether that changes anything. However: decoding queue is always full, so i doubt that it mate!

P.S. im on win7 x64

[huhn]

is aero active? without aero you get high presentation times.
of cause this shouldn't matter for FSE mode.

[Ceremony]

it is active, however its impact should be minimal, maybe dropping overall performance of 1% if youre truly unlucky...
and as you already said: exclusive fullscreen mode is not exempted from this.

as for the intel and nvidia settings:
everything is at their default value, except:
- dynamic display brightness is off
- no shitty intel video "enhancements"
there are no new or extra options in nvidias control panel either.

Disabling ffdshow didnt do anything...

[Ceremony]

Is this maybe related to nvidias new maxwell architecture? the 850M is one of those new models that have one of these new chips. Here is a list of other models containing the maxwell chip:
GTX 745, GTX 750 and GTX 750 Ti on desktop
830M, 840M, GTX 850M and GTX 860M* on mobile

*there are 860M out there based on older chips!

Can anyone check with these cards, whether there is an issue with madVR?

[nevcairiel]

Its an optimus problem, not a Maxwell problem. Desktop systems work just perfectly with the new 750/750Ti. Optimus is just broken for advanced video usage.

[Anime Viewer]

Its an optimus problem, not a Maxwell problem. Desktop systems work just perfectly with the new 750/750Ti. Optimus is just broken for advanced video usage.

I don't believe that. Some Optimus users (like myself) have no problems, so stating that "Optimus is broken" is not true. Something is different with the 800 series cards. Many people with them haven't been able to run with madVR and VMR 9. Just because a desktop 700 series card you have works you can't assume that 800 series cards will function the same way.

[Asmodian]

Right, Optimus is broken for advanced video usage with the 800 series.

[Ceremony]

That reasoning is strange though:
The three top mobile cards (880M,870M and 860M) employ the same architecture and feature-set as most of the 600 and 700 series: Kepler.
Logically, they should work identical and the drivers shouldnt be that different when comparing the mobile 800 series with that of the 600 and 700 one.

Why should madVR stop working properly with the 800 series... Well, that doesnt matter, as I am not on kepler, but on maxwell. maxwell seems to be working fine on desktops. anyone else out there with maxwell+optimus laptops who can verify?

[Asmodian]

It isn't that only madVR doesn't work well with them, as far as I can tell no modern video renderer does. How is your performance with EVR?

I wonder if it works better in Windows 8.1? Microsoft changed a lot for video playback in 8.1, maybe Nvidia doesn't worry about optimal behavior for older OSes on very new hardware?

[Ceremony]

It isn't that only madVR doesn't work well with them, as far as I can tell no modern video renderer does. How is your performance with EVR?
9ms for NVIDIA
0.2ms for Intel

... how... why... ... damn.

Please please please there is a fix for it. Also, shouldnt this have a major impact on anything handled by the nvidia card?

[Ceremony]

Big news for to all Nvidia Optimus and 850M (or other maxwell) users:

I finally figured out how to (partially) fix this!
1. Grab NVIDIA Inspector (freeware)
2. Start it and open its driver control panel
3. Find your player in the dropdown menu or add the exe to a newly created profile (im using mpcbe)
4. Enable optimus for the player by this setting:
Enable application for Optimus to SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_ENABLE (0x00000001)
5. And now in order to fix the awful performance of madVR with Optimus, also edit the following config:
Shim Rendering Mode Options per application for Optimus to 0x00000019 (other settings may also work, but this one did the trick for me!)

Unfortunately, it isnt 100% fixed with that, as performance in windowed (= not exclusive fullscreen mode) roughly doubled (presentation down from ~15ms to 8ms @ 720 video), we get the full sub 0.2ms back in exclusive fullscreen mode.

@madshi,
if you got any idea what that option does, how to prevent it from causing issue like that, I'll gladly test it for you. I doubt we can hope for a fix from nvidia...

also nnedi3 doubling has that nvidia bug again, where the image gets near-black when enabled. thought that was fixed?

EDIT: Dear reader, pls do NOT use these settings. Refer to this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1696654#post1696654) instead. Thanks!

[cyberbeing]

Shim Rendering Mode Options per application for Optimus to 0x00000019 (other settings may also work, but this one did the trick for me!)
enum EValues_SHIM_RENDERING_MODE {
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_INTEGRATED = 0x00000000,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_ENABLE = 0x00000001,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_USER_EDITABLE = 0x00000002,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_MASK = 0x00000003,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_VIDEO_MASK = 0x00000004,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_VARYING_BIT = 0x00000008,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_AUTO_SELECT = 0x00000010,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_OVERRIDE_BIT = 0x80000000,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_NUM_VALUES = 8,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_DEFAULT = SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_AUTO_SELECT
};

enum EValues_SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS {
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DEFAULT_RENDERING_MODE = 0x00000000,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DISABLE_ASYNC_PRESENT = 0x00000001,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_EHSHELL_DETECT = 0x00000002,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_FLASHPLAYER_HOST_DETECT = 0x00000004,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_VIDEO_DRM_APP_DETECT = 0x00000008,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_IGNORE_OVERRIDES = 0x00000010,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_CHILDPROCESS_DETECT = 0x00000020,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_ENABLE_DWM_ASYNC_PRESENT = 0x00000040,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_PARENTPROCESS_DETECT = 0x00000080,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_ALLOW_INHERITANCE = 0x00000100,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DISABLE_WRAPPERS = 0x00000200,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DISABLE_DXGI_WRAPPERS = 0x00000400,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_PRUNE_UNSUPPORTED_FORMATS = 0x00000800,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_ENABLE_ALPHA_FORMAT = 0x00001000,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_IGPU_TRANSCODING = 0x00002000,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DISABLE_CUDA = 0x00004000,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_ALLOW_CP_CAPS_FOR_VIDEO = 0x00008000,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_ENABLE_NEW_HOOKING = 0x00010000,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DISABLE_DURING_SECURE_BOOT = 0x00020000,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_NUM_VALUES = 19,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DEFAULT = SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DEFAULT_RENDERING_MODE
};


Those are bitmask from NVAPI, so 0x00000019 would be:
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DISABLE_ASYNC_PRESENT
+
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_VIDEO_DRM_APP_DETECT
+
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_IGNORE_OVERRIDES

[Anime Viewer]

[code]

Those are bitmask from NVAPI, so 0x00000019 would be:
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DISABLE_ASYNC_PRESENT
+
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_VIDEO_DRM_APP_DETECT
+
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_IGNORE_OVERRIDES

SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_ENABLE (0x00000001)
5. And now in order to fix the awful performance of madVR with Optimus, also edit the following config:
Shim Rendering Mode Options per application for Optimus to 0x00000019 (other settings may also work, but this one did the trick for me!)

Unfortunately, it isnt 100% fixed with that, as performance in windowed (= not exclusive fullscreen mode) roughly doubled (presentation down from ~15ms to 8ms @ 720 video), we get the full sub 0.2ms back in exclusive fullscreen mode.

@madshi,
if you got any idea what that option does, how to prevent it from causing issue like that, I'll gladly test it for you. I doubt we can hope for a fix from nvidia...

Based on what cyberbeing said about the three active things in the 19 code the next step would be to test each one to see if only one of them is responsible for fixing the problem. If I were to guess I would say DRM_APP_DETECT would not be responsible, and it would either be the async or the overrides code.
My 680m worked fine with Optimus before, so I can't be of much help in isolating the bug with newer gpu. I'll test to see if the triple code, or one of the three by itself causes the bug reversion you speak of reoccurring. I'll also test to see if my present render times decrease from normal using those settings.

Edit: No re-occurrence of the bug on my system, and my render times didn't change. (My render was ~23ms both ways, and my present was ~2ms both ways). I also have no problems enabling fullscreen exclusive mode on my system with those settings. Guess its up to the 800+ series optimus users to provide more helpful testing results.

[hashanga]

Big news for to all Nvidia Optimus and 850M (or other maxwell) users:

I finally figured out how to (partially) fix this!
1. Grab NVIDIA Inspector (freeware)
2. Start it and open its driver control panel
3. Find your player in the dropdown menu or add the exe to a newly created profile (im using mpcbe)
4. Enable optimus for the player by this setting:
Enable application for Optimus to SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_ENABLE (0x00000001)
5. And now in order to fix the awful performance of madVR with Optimus, also edit the following config:
Shim Rendering Mode Options per application for Optimus to 0x00000019 (other settings may also work, but this one did the trick for me!)

Unfortunately, it isnt 100% fixed with that, as performance in windowed (= not exclusive fullscreen mode) roughly doubled (presentation down from ~15ms to 8ms @ 720 video), we get the full sub 0.2ms back in exclusive fullscreen mode.

@madshi,
if you got any idea what that option does, how to prevent it from causing issue like that, I'll gladly test it for you. I doubt we can hope for a fix from nvidia...

also nnedi3 doubling has that nvidia bug again, where the image gets near-black when enabled. thought that was fixed?

This worked with my 850M (Maxwell) /mpc-hc. Now finally mad-VR works with SVP @1080p without lagging terribly.

I'm willing to do any tests if someone wants me to.

edit: The GPU usage doesn't go beyond 12%. And I'm using really low settings (bilinear) in MadVR. So the problem is still there. Even the GMA4600 is capable of delivering similar performance alone.

edit2: I was wrong. GPU was only used by SVP. So this didn't solve the problem at all. MadVR + 850M => black screen and crash.

[clsid]

Does this also fix the black screen issues that some people were having?

[Ceremony]

enum EValues_SHIM_RENDERING_MODE {
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_INTEGRATED = 0x00000000,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_ENABLE = 0x00000001,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_USER_EDITABLE = 0x00000002,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_MASK = 0x00000003,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_VIDEO_MASK = 0x00000004,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_VARYING_BIT = 0x00000008,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_AUTO_SELECT = 0x00000010,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_OVERRIDE_BIT = 0x80000000,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_NUM_VALUES = 8,
SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_DEFAULT = SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_AUTO_SELECT
};

enum EValues_SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS {
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DEFAULT_RENDERING_MODE = 0x00000000,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DISABLE_ASYNC_PRESENT = 0x00000001,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_EHSHELL_DETECT = 0x00000002,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_FLASHPLAYER_HOST_DETECT = 0x00000004,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_VIDEO_DRM_APP_DETECT = 0x00000008,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_IGNORE_OVERRIDES = 0x00000010,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_CHILDPROCESS_DETECT = 0x00000020,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_ENABLE_DWM_ASYNC_PRESENT = 0x00000040,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_PARENTPROCESS_DETECT = 0x00000080,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_ALLOW_INHERITANCE = 0x00000100,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DISABLE_WRAPPERS = 0x00000200,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DISABLE_DXGI_WRAPPERS = 0x00000400,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_PRUNE_UNSUPPORTED_FORMATS = 0x00000800,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_ENABLE_ALPHA_FORMAT = 0x00001000,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_IGPU_TRANSCODING = 0x00002000,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DISABLE_CUDA = 0x00004000,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_ALLOW_CP_CAPS_FOR_VIDEO = 0x00008000,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_ENABLE_NEW_HOOKING = 0x00010000,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DISABLE_DURING_SECURE_BOOT = 0x00020000,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_NUM_VALUES = 19,
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DEFAULT = SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DEFAULT_RENDERING_MODE
};


Those are bitmask from NVAPI, so 0x00000019 would be:
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_DISABLE_ASYNC_PRESENT
+
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_VIDEO_DRM_APP_DETECT
+
SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_IGNORE_OVERRIDES
The following two (either one of them or both combined) have the desired effect:
0x00000008 - SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_VIDEO_DRM_APP_DETECT
0x00000040 - SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_ENABLE_DWM_ASYNC_PRESENT

@clsid
which issues exactly? nnedi causes blackscreen with my 850m

EDIT: Dear reader, pls do NOT use these settings. Refer to this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1696654#post1696654) instead. Thanks!

[hashanga]

The following two (either one of them or both combined) have the desired effect:
0x00000008 - SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_VIDEO_DRM_APP_DETECT
0x00000040 - SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_ENABLE_DWM_ASYNC_PRESENT

@clsid
which issues exactly? nnedi causes blackscreen with my 850m

After some play/pause and fullscreen/windowed cycles, you can get rid of the black screen.

EDIT: As it seems, that only solves the issue only when mpc is actually using the Intel GPU. For me, nnedi3 or not, MadVR doesn't work at all with 850M in mpc-hc or mpc-be.

[Ceremony]

i dont get it hashnaga - is it now an issue with the igpu or nvidia? also black screen with crash? i never had that issue. I had some trouble with resizing/fullscreen-in-out and a black screen, but never ever did it crash for me. Though i was not using SVP in that setup.

Try it without svp?

[hashanga]

i dont get it hashnaga - is it now an issue with the igpu or nvidia? also black screen with crash? i never had that issue. I had some trouble with resizing/fullscreen-in-out and a black screen, but never ever did it crash for me. Though i was not using SVP in that setup.

Try it without svp?

The problem only arises when choosing to run using the NVidia GPU. I tried mpc-be without SVP. Still I get a black screen and crashes afterwards. I noticed it crashes when i try to pause or seek(even before then ,the video output is black).


PS: I don't think my intel GPU being a 4600 causes this (instead of being a 4400)

[Ceremony]

I never encountered a crash - be it with intel GMA or the NVIDIA chip.

I do however get a black screen when resizing the window (more often than not), but only when I'm using Intel and using Windowed Overlay in madVR. Never got it to crash though.

Sorry, but I cannot replicated the issue youre having :(
My setup:
Splitter: LAV Splitter
Audio: LAV Decoder -> ffdshow (filter & mix) -> ReClock
Video: LAV Decoder -> ffdshow (filter & deinterlacing) -> madVR
Subs: XySubFilter -> madVR

ALSO, ANOTHER UPDATE FOR 850M USERS!
I recently wrote about the compatibility flag. These settings were partially wrong! The correct configuration is:
Enable application for Optimus = SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_ENABLE (0x00000001)
Shim Rendering Mode Options per application for Optimus = SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_ENABLE_DWM_ASYNC_PRESENT (0x00000040)

SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_VIDEO_DRM_APP_DETECT does not work. It forces the application to use the Intel GPU regardless of your Optimus setting!

[Ceremony]

@madshi,
for some reason, EVR does not suffer from the presentation lag in windowed mode (= not exclusive D3D fullscreen) like madVR does: ~0.25ms for EVR, ~6ms for madVR.
madVR only performs well once I enter the exclusive fullscreen mode (evr and madvr @ ~0.35ms). Any chance you can look into this? I'll help as much as I possibly can!

[hashanga]

I never encountered a crash - be it with intel GMA or the NVIDIA chip.

ALSO, ANOTHER UPDATE FOR 850M USERS!
Enable application for Optimus = SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_ENABLE (0x00000001)
Shim Rendering Mode Options per application for Optimus = SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_ENABLE_DWM_ASYNC_PRESENT (0x00000040)


I thought it's a problem with Intel drivers. But the situation is the same with the latest Intel and NVidia drivers along with latest fresh copy of mpc-be (without SVP).

So the difference between your setup and mine is the OS. Windows 8.1 Pro (64-bit) and Intel HD 4600. But they aren't much different from your Windows 7 (64-bit) and Intel HD 4400.

I'm really confused about what's causing this.

[Asmodian]

Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 are very different when it comes to video. It is not surprising there are differences though I would have expected Windows 8.1 to work better not Windows 7.

[Ceremony]

Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 are very different when it comes to video. It is not surprising there are differences though I would have expected Windows 8.1 to work better not Windows 7.how so? I actually didnt think that it would matter that much. The core of win 8 is more or less the same as win 7. To me, Vista, 7 and 8 are somewhat of a family, only differing slightly under the hood. It's even reflected in their NT revisions (6.0, 6.1, 6.2 and 6.3). How is win 8 different from 7 when it comes to video and how does win 8 benefit?

@hashanga,
Isnt win 8 horrible to use? being intended for tablets and such? why not go for a win7 downgrade?

[huhn]

@hashanga,
Isnt win 8 horrible to use? being intended for tablets and such? why not go for a win7 downgrade?

such none sense. people don't like it that's. it fixed a lot of aero bugs and playback is generally more stable. it is totally impossible to use madVR (ok everything with moving picture games and so on...) on windows 7 with a 120 hz screen and a 60 hz screen because windows 7 aero can only have one desktop composition that is ether 120 hz or 60 hz for both... such issue doesn't exist for win 8 and there are a lot more issue.

[Littleman]

Hi, I'm trying to decode 4k files with my new Lenovo Y50 (4k screen + 860m GTX) but I only get sub-par performance so far.
I've already tried a few players / codecs but nothing satisfying so far. I'm under the impression that the nvidia chip is never used to decode video files (All frames go through Intel's IGP in any case - 4600hd).
Can anyone point me in the best direction?

PS: the only fluid player for now has been Powerdvd 10, that was shipped with the laptop. It decodes big bucks bunny 4K 30 fps quite well, but fails on other samples. I don't know what it uses to decode the file (pure cpu? Intel Quicksync? Nvidia?).

[hashanga]

Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 are very different when it comes to video. It is not surprising there are differences though I would have expected Windows 8.1 to work better not Windows 7.
how so? I actually didnt think that it would matter that much. The core of win 8 is more or less the same as win 7.
Actually I've heard that Windows 8 is is different when it comes to rendering. But it's hard to imagine how it would just break Optimus and work without it just fine. I thought only rendering the final image on screen would be affected. SVP works with Optimus in my system. So I expected at least resizing to use the Nvidia GPU.


@hashanga,
Isnt win 8 horrible to use? being intended for tablets and such? why not go for a win7 downgrade?
In terms of stability and performance, Windows 8.1 to Win 7 is like Win 7 to Vista. Win 8 handles I/O and RAM/memory really well. It doesn't slow down with age as Win 7. Has things like background defragmenting when idle.
A minor reason is that my laptop has a touch screen that I sometimes use along with the touchpad when I'm bored to reach for the mouse.
BTW: I don't think Tiles are that bad. Even in win 7, you'd still often search for and launch apps. Besides there are somewhat useful default live/tile apps like mail and news.



I'm under the impression that the nvidia chip is never used to decode video files (All frames go through Intel's IGP in any case - 4600hd).
I don't know what it uses to decode the file (pure cpu? Intel Quicksync? Nvidia?).
You can use GPU-Z along with task manager (or Process Explorer) to check if your Intel and NVidia GPU usage along with the CPU usage. You can have some idea what components are being used. If you're having quality issues, one of those 3 components should be maxed out.

[hashanga]

Does anyone know if it's at least remotely possible to use MadVR as a filter, not the final renderer. Like SVP.

[Anime Viewer]

Out of curiosity has anyone still encountering madVR / Nvidia Optimus issues tried the current version of MPDN (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=171120) running in its Direct3D 10.1 render mode? (Make sure to add, and change it to Nvidia gpu in Nvidia control panel). The 2.6.3 64-bit MPDN version (http://www.zachsaw.com/downloads/MediaPlayerDotNet/MediaPlayerDotNet_x64_2_6_3_1912.zip) running in Direct3D 10.1 mode seems to work extremely well on my optimus system - granted madVR works on my system as well.

[hashanga]

Out of curiosity has anyone still encountering madVR / Nvidia Optimus issues tried the current version of MPDN (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=171120) running in its Direct3D 10.1 render mode?
I have tried MediaPlayerDotNet_x64_2_5_0_1889 . Didn't work as I expected. I'll try the latest and report back. Maybe I didn't use it because it lacks frame/motion interpolation .

[Anime Viewer]

I have tried MediaPlayerDotNet_x64_2_5_0_1889 . Didn't work as I expected. I'll try the latest and report back. Maybe I didn't use it because it lacks frame/motion interpolation .

Serving as more than just an alternative media player it working with (newer) Optimus cards/systems could be an indication that Direct3d 10.1 (or in the case of the x64 version - x64 drivers) doesn't have the same issues as the DirectX/3d used by madVR, and could be a way for madshi to get madVR working for people with Optimus problems. That is part of why I ask(ed).

By the way MPDN version 2.7 (http://www.zachsaw.com/downloads/MediaPlayerDotNet/MediaPlayerDotNet_x64_2_7_1_2370.zip) is out, so try that newest version instead.

[Littleman]

Serving as more than just an alternative media player it working with (newer) Optimus cards/systems could be an indication that Direct3d 10.1 (or in the case of the x64 version - x64 drivers) doesn't have the same issues as the DirectX/3d used by madVR, and could be a way for madshi to get madVR working for people with Optimus problems. That is part of why I ask(ed).

By the way MPDN version 2.7 (http://www.zachsaw.com/downloads/MediaPlayerDotNet/MediaPlayerDotNet_x64_2_7_1_2370.zip) is out, so try that newest version instead.

Great find! The player works nicely in dx10 mode + full screen. It plays almost all my samples correctly. It stutters in windowed mode. 860mGTX at 65% and intel igp at 45%.

[hashanga]

I tried the latest MPDN and it worked. But it doesn't have NNEDI3 (For very low res videos I have). But biggest dealbreaker is it doesn't work with SVP (or ffdshow). I'm so used to SVP now that I feel dizzy when watching stuttering 24-30 fps videos. Also subtitles are added before resizing so they look like old DVD player subs.

BTW: NVidia GPU usage is 4%~9% but after sometime it goes to 24%~48% probably MPDN switches to a more expensive algo. Intel GPU usage is 5%~10%.

[Anime Viewer]

I tried the latest MPDN and it worked. But it doesn't have NNEDI3 (For very low res videos I have).


How low resolution are you talking about. Truthfully I don't see any quality difference between Jinc and NNEDI3 even at the low resolution of 320x240. Have you tried the higher Jinc settings (up to 16 taps) that are now available in MPDN as of version 2.7 to see if that looks better for you?


But biggest dealbreaker is it doesn't work with SVP (or ffdshow). I'm so used to SVP now that I feel dizzy when watching stuttering 24-30 fps videos.

I wouldn't say SVP works with madVR. madshi and others have said they shouldn't be used together, and every person who I've heard that has tried them together has complained about problems.


Also subtitles are added before resizing so they look like old DVD player subs.

What resolution/format videos are you see that with, and what resolution are you expanding to? I've watched 400p videos expanded to 1080p using both madVR and MPDN, and the subtitles look very similar if not identical.


BTW: NVidia GPU usage is 4%~9% but after sometime it goes to 24%~48% probably MPDN switches to a more expensive algo. Intel GPU usage is 5%~10%.
That would be odd, I don't see why the Nvidia would start consuming more resources out of the blue. I also don't think MPDN would change algorithms in the middle of playback (what would make you think that is whats happening). You sure nothing else has started running in the background? When you see the Nvidia GPU resource increase do you see any problems resulting? If you don't see performance in something else suffering at those times, and your fan doesn't turn on full bore then what does it matter how much resources its using. Windows is supposed to make use of as much resources as possible to give the best performance possible at any given task, and relinquish resources if a program requests them thus its not necessarily a bad thing.
Are you using the 64-bit or 32-bit version of MPDN? As I mentioned recently in the MPDN thread the 64-bit version renders twice as fast as the 32-bit version for some reason (better optimized 64-bit drivers, perhaps?). If you haven't tried the 64-bit version, and you're using a 64-bit version of Windows give it a try and see if you get better results.

[Ceremony]

actually i doubt that its switching to a more expensive algorithm. my guess is, that the gpu clocks at a high frequency in the beginning and then throttles back to idle or something, as the load isnt that great. thus, more of the gpu is being used to complete the same workload at a lower frequency.

[Anime Viewer]

But biggest dealbreaker is it doesn't work with SVP (or ffdshow). I'm so used to SVP now that I feel dizzy when watching stuttering 24-30 fps videos.

patul posted in the MPDN thread that he/she has ffdshow and SVP working with MPDN, so you may want to give it another try.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1697499#post1697499
(Version 2.8 and above does indeed work with SVP).

[hashanga]

patul posted in the MPDN thread that he/she has ffdshow and SVP working with MPDN, so you may want to give it another try.
(Version 2.8 and above does indeed work with SVP).
Yes, after you said, I tried again and got SVP and ffdshow working again in the 32-bit build. I have only installed 32-bit ffdshow and SVP doesn't support 64-bit which is why I didn't see the ffdshow option in the previously (64-bit MPDN). As you've noted in the MPDN thread there are subtitle (and video) smearing issues(only in MPDN). But it still is better than without SVP.


The 64-bit version renders twice as fast as the 32-bit version for some reason.
Wish there were 64-bit binaries for SVP.

How low resolution are you talking about. Truthfully I don't see any quality difference between Jinc and NNEDI3 even at the low resolution of 320x240. Have you tried the higher Jinc settings (up to 16 taps) that are now available in MPDN as of version 2.7 to see if that looks better for you?
Actually it's a very low resolution (256x108). At such low resolutions, there's a NNEDI3's impact is higher. Anyway I thought taps are just recursively applying the same Jinc algorithm again (So very high values might ruin the output). Or does it consider higher number of neighbouring pixels?


What resolution/format videos are you see that with, and what resolution are you expanding to? I've watched 400p videos expanded to 1080p using both madVR and MPDN, and the subtitles look very similar if not identical.
Don't they look too soft like hard-coded subs? I was using 360p videos expanded to 1080p and subs were like slightly blurred. I don't think it's yet possible to apply post-resize subs in MPDN. But that's a very nice feature of MPC-HC that I miss (along with subtitle downloading)


I wouldn't say SVP works with madVR. madshi and others have said they shouldn't be used together, and every person who I've heard that has tried them together has complained about problems.
I don't see any technical issues of them being used together other than madVR having to render twice (or more) as much frames per second. Dithering and other issues could have been a problem if SVP applied after madVR but that's not the case. And i personally don't see any big issues other than some glitches on fast moving scenes.



That would be odd, I don't see why the Nvidia would start consuming more resources out of the blue. I also don't think MPDN would change algorithms in the middle of playback..
actually i doubt that its switching to a more expensive algorithm. my guess is, that the gpu clocks at a high frequency in the beginning and then throttles back to idle or something, as the load isnt that great. thus, more of the gpu is being used to complete the same workload at a lower frequency.
Oh. I totally forgot that the frequency changes dynamically. You must be correct.

[Anime Viewer]

As you've noted in the MPDN thread there are subtitle (and video) smearing issues(only in MPDN). But it still is better than without SVP.

Some changes to the SVP manager profiles got rid of the smearing, but I still see the occasional glitch (ghosting, repeat, placement jumping) of subtitles.
The SVP guide for anime is dated, and its hard to know what settings (if any) of those are still the best to stick with. I'm not convinced that the recommend 2. Sharp (for anime) choice is actually the best option to use for watching anime. I think the 11b. By blocks may give the best subtitle display. I'm still unsure about the px setting for motion vectors grid and motion vectors precision settings (6 px. Small 2 seems to work pretty well). I think Half pixel maybe a better choice than the 2 pixel setting recommended on that webpage.

I'm still up in the air about if I want to stick with MVP or go without it. I think the subtitle corruption may be more annoying to me then studder during panning scenes (SVP off)


Don't they look too soft like hard-coded subs? I was using 360p videos expanded to 1080p and subs were like slightly blurred. I don't think it's yet possible to apply post-resize subs in MPDN. But that's a very nice feature of MPC-HC that I miss (along with subtitle downloading)

I did notice that they looked blurred as did the overall picture. Later I found that ffdshow had Postprocessing checked in its settings, and once I unchecked that both the subtitles and the picture cleared up / sharpened without any negatives to SVP effects.

[hashanga]

Some changes to the SVP manager profiles got rid of the smearing, but I still see the occasional glitch (ghosting, repeat, placement jumping) of subtitles.
Did you try SVP default settings? I'm using 4.g default settings. 5.g should be better. For anime, get the 5.g default setings and only change the first and the second settings. For me subtitle glitches are very rare. And almost unnoticeable.
And I think for anime, 1 pixel would be a good choice if the source isn't smaller than say 320p.


I did notice that they looked blurred as did the overall picture. Later I found that ffdshow had Postprocessing checked in its settings, and once I unchecked that both the subtitles and the picture cleared up / sharpened without any negatives to SVP effects.
Most of my sources are highly compressed. So I can't disable ffdshow postprocessing (too many artifacts). Even though I disable it, I don't see any improvement with the subtitles.

[Anime Viewer]

Did you try SVP default settings? I'm using 4.g default settings. 5.g should be better. For anime, get the 5.g default setings and only change the first and the second settings. For me subtitle glitches are very rare. And almost unnoticeable.
And I think for anime, 1 pixel would be a good choice if the source isn't smaller than say 320p.

I'm not sure what you mean by 4.g default, and 5.g default settings. The only default option I see with SVP is the single one under profiles that reads "reset to defaults", so I don't see a 4.g or 5.g


Most of my sources are highly compressed. So I can't disable ffdshow postprocessing (too many artifacts). Even though I disable it, I don't see any improvement with the subtitles.

Odd, rechecking postprocessing didn't recreate the blurring error, so maybe I changed something else (even though I thought I was only changing one setting at a time in my testing). Post a screen shot of the blurred subtitles from the 360>1080 you are seeing, and I'll confirm it was the same thing I was seeing. (My 360->1080 upscaled subtitles currently appear perfectly clear).

[hashanga]

I'm not sure what you mean by 4.g default, and 5.g default settings. The only default option I see with SVP is the single one under profiles that reads "reset to defaults", so I don't see a 4.g or 5.g

It's there. When you click reset to defaults, you get can choose a template/profile along with the suggestion for your system. 1~5 are the performance levels and c is for cpu only, g for GPU acceleration.


Odd, rechecking postprocessing didn't recreate the blurring error, so maybe I changed something else (even though I thought I was only changing one setting at a time in my testing). Post a screen shot of the blurred subtitles from the 360>1080 you are seeing, and I'll confirm it was the same thing I was seeing. (My 360->1080 upscaled subtitles currently appear perfectly clear).

Here's a screenshot (http://s29.postimg.org/ai47x9wk7/mpc_hc_ffdshowresize_OR_madvr.png).
http://s29.postimg.org/5w83oxb0z/mpc_hc_ffdshowresize_OR_madvr.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/5w83oxb0z/)

[Anime Viewer]

Here's a screenshot (http://s29.postimg.org/ai47x9wk7/mpc_hc_ffdshowresize_OR_madvr.png).
http://s29.postimg.org/5w83oxb0z/mpc_hc_ffdshowresize_OR_madvr.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/5w83oxb0z/)

Are you using XySubFilters in that MPC-HC configuration, and Xy-VSFilters in the ffdshow cases. If so the High resolution subtitle rendering that XySubfilters can do that Xy-VSFilters can't may explain the blurriness.

[Thunderbolt8]

I never encountered a crash - be it with intel GMA or the NVIDIA chip.

I do however get a black screen when resizing the window (more often than not), but only when I'm using Intel and using Windowed Overlay in madVR. Never got it to crash though.

Sorry, but I cannot replicated the issue youre having :(
My setup:
Splitter: LAV Splitter
Audio: LAV Decoder -> ffdshow (filter & mix) -> ReClock
Video: LAV Decoder -> ffdshow (filter & deinterlacing) -> madVR
Subs: XySubFilter -> madVR

ALSO, ANOTHER UPDATE FOR 850M USERS!
I recently wrote about the compatibility flag. These settings were partially wrong! The correct configuration is:
Enable application for Optimus = SHIM_RENDERING_MODE_ENABLE (0x00000001)
Shim Rendering Mode Options per application for Optimus = SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_ENABLE_DWM_ASYNC_PRESENT (0x00000040)

SHIM_RENDERING_OPTIONS_VIDEO_DRM_APP_DETECT does not work. It forces the application to use the Intel GPU regardless of your Optimus setting!these settings dont help with my GTX860M, I still got a black screen -.-

[Ceremony]

these settings dont help with my GTX860M, I still got a black screen -.-

black screen is an entirely different issue.

[Thunderbolt8]

so whats causing the black screen here? that vid I try to play is working fine with VLC, the intel card or on my laptop with a GTX760M (all on windows 8.1)

[wanezhiling]

On my new 'hd4600+gtx860m' laptop, almost all players work fine with vmr7/9 renderless, evr-cp, madVR under dGPU (Of course I already use Nvidia Inspector to remove those igpu-only-player's profiles) except mpc-hc, mpc-hc just can not play anything..:scared:

Well all players show blackscreen when using vmr7/9 windowed, vanilla evr...:o

[nekromantik]

Anyone found anything to fix black screen issue?
Right plot thickens, now I can get Nvidia to work on potplayer with EVR and others but madvr still shows black screen.

[Zachs]

Hi guys, need some help from all you Optimus owners.

It would seem that Nvidia Optimus technology isn't exactly mature for prime time yet seeing how many issues its users have reported.

One of MPDN's user reported that using certain settings can cause render time to gradually increase until it becomes double after half an hour. Since I don't have access to an Optimus laptop, I was wondering if any of you could help out by testing MPDN to see if the same problem occurs.

Relevant posts starting from
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1704290#post1704290

Thanks in advance!

[Ceremony]

i dunno, but i get black screen only sometimes when resizing or going fullscreen/windowed.

@zachs, ill take a look

EDIT1:
880M is NOT a maxwell card btw, so replicating it will be difficult due to obvious reasons (maxwell+optimus+madVR has lots of issues. read this thread for more info)

EDIT2:
I haven't tested it yet, but I do suspect that the gpu is either overheating, battery is low or that some other auto power state change... either way, something that throttles. I somewhat doubt that its caused by your application, as for one, it would probably happen on more systems than just his laptop

[nekromantik]

Mine is Keplar 860m not the maxwell variant. But I still have that issue.

[Zachs]

@nekromantik

Which issue? Render time increasing with MPDN?

[nekromantik]

No black screen when using madvr.

[Haxton Fale]

Not that it's very constructive, but I too have the same issue - namely madVR giving me a black screen and crashing the players (MPC-HC, MPC-BE) whenever I try to run it with my GTX860M (Maxwell, I believe? that's what I found for Lenovo Y50-70). Is anyone still looking into it? It's not a constant issue, but every once in a while I do have trouble with playing stuff on the Intel GPU. MPDN does the trick, but only if I don't have subs in a separate file, and even then it tends to be not particularly stable (plus lacking support for my remote :P ).

[hashanga]

MPDN is so far the only method that worked. It does almost all of the things I wanted from MadVR (+with GPU acceleration). Even NNEDI is there. Anyway SVP, if you're using, suffers from a noticeable video jitter, almost unusable with recent versions.

MPDN does the trick, but only if I don't have subs in a separate file

I don't really get what you meant with the subtitle problem. I use ffdshow (via ffdshow raw video filter in MPDN) to apply subtitles, post processing and SVP. The subtitles will be of the resolution of the source video (so not always as crispy as in mpc-hc). I use a software called "dsrt" when subtitles are muxed into the video file(when there isn't a separate subtitle file). ffdshow can load external subtitles. What method are you using for subtitles?

PS: Welcome to doom9 :)

[Asmodian]

Not that it's very constructive, but I too have the same issue - namely madVR giving me a black screen and crashing the players (MPC-HC, MPC-BE) whenever I try to run it with my GTX860M (Maxwell, I believe? that's what I found for Lenovo Y50-70). Is anyone still looking into it? It's not a constant issue, but every once in a while I do have trouble with playing stuff on the Intel GPU. MPDN does the trick, but only if I don't have subs in a separate file, and even then it tends to be not particularly stable (plus lacking support for my remote :P ).

I understand this was determined to be driver issues that would take a lot of changes in madVR to workaround. I would not expect a change from madVR to fix it (anytime soon at least) but maybe Nvidia will improve the drivers.

MPDN is so far the only method that worked. It does almost all of the things I wanted from MadVR (+with GPU acceleration). Even NNEDI is there. Anyway SVP, if you're using, suffers from a noticeable video jitter, almost unusable with recent versions.

NEDI is not NNEDI3, they work very differently; NEDI does not use a neural net. NNEDI3 is better IMO (and slower).

[hashanga]

NEDI is not NNEDI3, they work very differently; NEDI does not use a neural net. NNEDI3 is better IMO (and slower).

Very true. But I omitted that fact as NEDI+SuperRes looks almost as good as NNEDI3 or maybe better. For me, I don't see any difference(someone might, but still better than nothing) . On the plus side, MPDNs (GPU assisted?) NEDI implementation of MPDN runs much faster than NNEDI3 of MadVR with close-enough quality. Also, SVP is nearly impossible in my system with NNEDI3.

And thanks for mentioning the fact that NEDI doesn't use a neural net. Somewhere after I started using MPDN, I totally forgot that fact!

EDIT: @Asmodian thanks for pointing out that NEDI is the correct term (not NNEDI)

[Asmodian]

It is simply NEDI, no double "N". Helps reduce confusion. ;)

[Haxton Fale]

I understand this was determined to be driver issues that would take a lot of changes in madVR to workaround. I would not expect a change from madVR to fix it (anytime soon at least) but maybe Nvidia will improve the drivers.


Alright, guess I'll have to simply wait.

I don't really get what you meant with the subtitle problem. I use ffdshow (via ffdshow raw video filter in MPDN) to apply subtitles, post processing and SVP. The subtitles will be of the resolution of the source video (so not always as crispy as in mpc-hc). I use a software called "dsrt" when subtitles are muxed into the video file(when there isn't a separate subtitle file). ffdshow can load external subtitles. What method are you using for subtitles?

I guess I did not expect to have to go to filter options to simply load subtitles. The subs in question are in plain SRT and usually they load by default and/or get a separate but universal option under File. I'm using XySubFilter and it seems to open the stuff just fine if I load a film, go to filter options, and load the file.

PS: Welcome to doom9 :)

Thanks :)

[Kevin Gilmore]

Just wanted to say optimus driver fixes by Ceremony (I presume for all Mobile Maxwell Architecture/ say 980M too) work ENTIRELY

Makes me very happy. The super-xbr filters by Hyllian are particularly excellent for the laptops! (I'm on a 4kIGZO+Quantum-dot) 15.6 display, so really appreciate the ability to get some real-world, ocassional very practical use from these renders (definitely for say 1080p files, so far). XBR is so low power consumption that the fan-speeds are basically negligible (relative to bog-standard rendering).
I like it

Thanks to all affiliated with making the numerous renders out there happen. This turned out well! People shouldn't be so hard on laptop hw: apparently, through this frankly easy/forthright fix, it works.
Special-thanks to Ceremony.

Will cross-examine/reference the stats with others findings and the Intel hd4600 -to see if the delays/some sort of incompatibility still seems to exist in the NV/Optimus driver), driver; So far seems good though.
This type of fix may be useful for Arctic-Islands or Pascal mobile in the future!

[Ironclad]

You guys are life savers. I was going through hell getting my HP Omen configured with it's 860M. Still choosing between SVP and madVR is disappointing. I figured with an i7 quadcore, hyperthreading, SVP would be no trouble but as usually it just doesn't agree with madVR. I really hope Vapoursynth integration comes soon to madVR. I'll try with Interframe+madVR next.

[jerryleungwh]

Guys I'm an optimus user too and the problems I've encounter are that I've used the copy-rename method to enable MPC-HC to use the nvidia GPU(gtx 960M) with madVR but I can only play a video in D3D11 windowed mode. I wish to use the D3D11 fullscreen exclusive mode for 10bit output but when I do that it says "exclusive mode failed". How can I fix this problem?

[CarlosCaco]

Guys I'm an optimus user too and the problems I've encounter are that I've used the copy-rename method to enable MPC-HC to use the nvidia GPU(gtx 960M) with madVR but I can only play a video in D3D11 windowed mode. I wish to use the D3D11 fullscreen exclusive mode for 10bit output but when I do that it says "exclusive mode failed". How can I fix this problem?

Try remove the driver and do a clean reinstall... I recomend DDU tão remove the driver... Also you can reset madvr settings even redownload and reinstall madvr

[Asmodian]

UHD bluray is 10 bit HEVC, the i7-4700HQ does not have hardware decoding for 10 bit HEVC and it is too slow to decode it in software. Sorry. :(