Black Clipping problem

[huhn]

1-Black Clipping
If madVR's "devices | <my_monitor> | properties | the display expects the following RGB output levels:" is set to "PC levels (0-255)" (default setting), the reference black bar isn't flashed while Brightness is set to 46/100. To be precise the picture doesn't change much even if I raise Brightness to max.
If this setting is set to "TV levels (16-235)" I cannot make bars 2-16 blend together even if I set Brigtness to minimum. The same result for VMR9.
3-White Clipping
"PC levels (0-255)": bar 234 is the highest flashing bar regardless of Contrast setting.
"TV levels (16-235)": bar 244 is the highest flashing bar while Contrast is set to 91/100, all bars are flashing while Contrast is set to 86/100.


Questions:

Should I set madVR to use "PC levels" or "TV levels"? "TV levels" will give me more details but I confused with this "reference black". The guide says that I should definitely not want to see any bars below reference black but why? The picture details will be loosing this way.
If I use "TV levels" what Brightness value should I use? 46/100 has no sense in this case, hasn't it?
If I use "TV levels" what Brightness value should I use? I think of 86/100 since it should give me more details than 91/100, right?


Thanks in advance for the help. AVSHD guide seems to be to complicated for me. For example I cannot understand how to use 2-APL Clipping test correctly (what to look at in this test).

looks like your display clips same black level that pretty normal they are simply created with this problem and no one usually cares. this can be fixed with a calibration.

first of all you can use custom level settings try to change the settings that only 17 and higher flash you can do this in combination with your display settings.

if the problem is still there after you have done this check the file name please in the end both should have that problem VMR and MadVR.

Should I set madVR to use "PC levels" or "TV levels"? "TV levels" will give me more details but I confused with this "reference black". The guide says that I should definitely not want to see any bars below reference black but why? The picture details will be loosing this way.

in a video there are no infos in the 0-16 part that a simple standard this test video is full range with infos in the 0-16 part but flagged like a BD/DVD with limited to make the problem visible. a normal encode shouldn't do this so it is totally fine to remove this no it's a must for good blacks.

the rest should be answered already.

[GCRaistlin]

huhn, thanks for your answer, but let's begin ab ovo though - should I use "TV levels" instead of "PC levels"? I believe it's "TV levels" but just in case.
I have tried to use custom levels. I have had set black to 2 to make bars 2-16 blend. Then I have opened a BD Remux from my collection and compared the black area of the picture with custom levels and TV levels. TV levels definitely give more details! So I'm not sure about
a normal encode shouldn't do this so it is totally fine to remove this no it's a must for good blacks.

the rest should be answered already
Should be but isn't. I would appreciate your kindness if you answer my questions about good Brightness and Contrast values taking into account the info I gave. Thank you again!

[huhn]

Should be but isn't. I would appreciate your kindness if you answer my questions about good Brightness and Contrast values taking into account the info I gave. Thank you again!

i can't answer this i don't have your display the right settings depend on your display. everything is fine as long as 17-25 flash.

huhn, thanks for your answer, but let's begin ab ovo though - should I use "TV levels" instead of "PC levels"? I believe it's "TV levels" but just in case.
I have tried to use custom levels. I have had set black to 2 to make bars 2-16 blend. Then I have opened a BD Remux from my collection and compared the black area of the picture with custom levels and TV levels. TV levels definitely give more details! So I'm not sure about

if only 17-25 flash with custom black 2 than this is right.
tv level shouldn't give more details the detail are just brighter or at least should be. if you aim for 100 % right settings think about a colorimeter and use that it really worth it!

if you use tv limited it's fine you lose a ton of contrast thx to this and blacks aren't black at all. but if you like it this way it's fine no detail is removed the hole picture is visible so you can do this. but this display is mean to be used as PC unlimited.

can you post a screenshoot with PC unlimited and TV limited (you have to use print screen)?

is Dynamic contrast or something like this used? if yes can you please disable it for a test. things like this can make a lot of problems.

[Asmodian]

huhn, thanks for your answer, but let's begin ab ovo though - should I use "TV levels" instead of "PC levels"? I believe it's "TV levels" but just in case.
I have tried to use custom levels. I have had set black to 2 to make bars 2-16 blend. Then I have opened a BD Remux from my collection and compared the black area of the picture with custom levels and TV levels. TV levels definitely give more details! So I'm not sure about

As huhn stated, it sounds like your TV is crushing blacks, this is very common in my experience. Again reiterating huhn; MadVR should be set to output PC levels if you can get your TV to handle it correctly (full range input), from your description your's does except for the slightly crushed blacks. Calibrating to BT.1886 should fix that and restore the lost shadow detail using PC levels without raising the black level, no one likes gray blacks.

If you have everything set correctly there should not be an obvious difference in shadow detail using PC or TV levels, you need to change other settings if you change between them to compensate for their differences. If you see a lot more shadow detail using TV levels you probably raised the black level until it was significantly above where your TV clips; this is very bad IMHO as a low black level is one of the most important aspects of a good TV. I prefer slightly crushed blacks to a raised black level if you cannot calibrate.

I don't think anyone can accurately answer your questions about brightness/contrast without having experience with your TV, which TV make and model is it?

Quick and dirty; with brightness at a "reasonable midpoint" raise contrast as high as you can and still see bar 234 then raise brightness as high as you can and still see bar 17. Then check that you can still see both 234 and 17. This is not correct on a lot of TVs as brightness and contrast can mean different things on different displays. :p

If you do not want max brightness you can set brightness as desired and then raise contrast as described. Sometimes the picture starts to go weird as you raise contrast but bar 234 is still visible, in that case you should lower contrast below the "weird" threshold. :D

[GCRaistlin]

My monitor is ASUS VS229 (IPS) connected via DVI.
As far as I understand the biggest issue with using TV levels is gray instead of black, but on the other hand you'll get all details of the picture - on an uncalibrated monitor. I don't know as for others but in my case I definitely prefer more details than "honest black":
http://i57.tinypic.com/2dlrj9x.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/6q9o95.jpg

is Dynamic contrast or something like this used?
No.

rom your description your's does except for the slightly crushed blacks. Calibrating to BT.1886 should fix that
But the calibrator is required for this, right?
The calibration process consists of changing R, G, B, Brightness and Contrast values? What do you think about software monitor customize tools like CLTest (http://victal.at.tut.by/CLTest.rar)? The guide says that test image (http://victal.at.tut.by/SharpTest.PNG) should look "gray, without squares" from far distance - on my display it looks like this from ~2 meter:
http://i59.tinypic.com/313hdsy.jpg
I don't really understand if any "squares" that should not be presented are present in my case. No I do see squares but I cannot imagine that they can blend on this picture somehow!

with brightness at a "reasonable midpoint"
What is "reasonable midpoint" of brightness?

raise contrast as high as you can and still see bar 234 then raise brightness as high as you can and still see bar 17.
As I wrote I am able only to find right Contrast value by which I see bar 234 flashing. But I could barely see bar 17 flashing at any Contrast level higher than 46/100 (I cannot see bar 16 by Contrast 100/100).
Bar 17 and above blend with the background when Contrast is lower than 46/100.

[YxP]

Stare at the sharpness test image's center without blinking for a moment, or squint your eyes. On my monitor and TV I only see the black and white rectangles on a smooth grey background after a while.

Oh and it really is sharpness test, I don't think I ever used that image when I tried to calibrate the colours by eye. I have sharpness set to zero on both devices.

[GCRaistlin]

Stare at the sharpness test image's center without blinking for a moment, or squint your eyes. On my monitor and TV I only see the black and white rectangles on a smooth grey background after a while.

Oh so that was meaned? That we should see rectangles, not squares? Thank you.

[GCRaistlin]

I am able only to find right Contrast value by which I see bar 234 flashing.
I was wrong. 234 is the highest flashing bar regardless of Contrast value.

[GCRaistlin]

Should I choose sRGB preset in monitor settings? As per CLTest guide, it's one of the possible start point of monitor customizing - either sRGB preset or Standard preset. But in case of sRGB Brightness and Contrast are disabled in the monitor menu.

[YxP]

If you don't have a colorimeter, the best you can do is follow instructions on http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/. Or at least that's what I did before I managed to borrow one :)

[GCRaistlin]

YxP, thanks for the link! I've discovered that sharpness level in Normal mode (that's what I always started from when customizing my monitor) was too high and, what is more, locked for some reason that is known only to ASUS. Also, gamma calibration result confuses me - I'm able to adjust curves for each channel to make them blend at 2.2 (48% bars) but then gray 48% bar blends at ~1.7. So I don't know what to choose - to adjust "all leves" curve and make gray bar blend at 2.2 (but then color bars won't blend at 2.2) or to adjust each channel separately. White saturation test isn't passed completely - I can't see patterns 253 and 254 regardless of the monitor settings. All other things seem to be OK: contrast, sharpness, black level.
But TV levels still gives better result (more details on dark scenes) than PC levels or custom levels (4-254, according to 1-Black Clipping and 3-White Clipping tests result). Can you guys please check TV levels on your well-calibrated monitors? Won't they give more details than PC levels? I'm just curious.

[huhn]

detail are just brighter and easier to spot at tv level but i don't lose them at pc level.

[Asmodian]

Can you guys please check TV levels on your well-calibrated monitors? Won't they give more details than PC levels? I'm just curious.

Absolutely not, if calibrated to BT.1886 with PC levels changing to TV levels gives a much worse contrast. Shadow detail does become more obvious as moving up the the gamma curve has larger differences between steps but this is not how the video was meant to be viewed. If you cannot tell the difference between bar 16 and 17 you lose shadow detail. If you can see bar 16 than you have a raised black level. After calibration I can see bar 17 but not 16.

If I switch to TV levels and recalibrate there is no difference in shadow detail or black level in madVR. The only obvious change is that the desktop has clipped blacks and whites. Calibration is like that.

[GCRaistlin]

After calibration I can see bar 17 but not 16.

That's what I can see too but I lose details in real movies by that.

If I switch to TV levels and recalibrate there is no difference in shadow detail or black level in madVR. The only obvious change is that the desktop has clipped blacks and whites. Calibration is like that.
No I mean try TV levels on non-recalibrated monitor and make comparison screenshots of the whole screen like I did for a dark scene of a movie. Please if it won't disturb you much.

[huhn]

you have problems in seeing detail in dark scene with custom pc level and flashing 17-25 right?

you can chance the gamma by setting MadVR to this display is already calibrated at calibration and set a lower gamma in color & gamma use pure power cure.

this makes dark scene more bright without rising the black level like TV level does.

normally you want something like 2.4 in a dark room but in a well lit room even 1.8 can be right.

[GCRaistlin]

Thanks, huhn. It seems that I have finally customized my monitor in the right way 'cause now I don't see more details with TV levels and even with gamma correction. Also, I don't see lack of details in madVR screenshots I have posted as examples to the topic before. Thanks a lot again!

[GCRaistlin]

Also, I wish to thank Asmodian and YxP!

[GCRaistlin]

Should I use custom levels if I cannot see pattern 254 in White Saturation test (http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/white.php)?

[huhn]

yes.
but it's a unlimited png so i don't know if that's really important

[GCRaistlin]

What level values should I use in this case?

[huhn]

254 i guess. i don't use this feature so not sure.

[GCRaistlin]

I have an issue with Gamma calibration (http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gamma_calibration.php) test. I have adjusted my monitor for daylight environment - bars blend at the right values, sharpness test gives the completely blended rectangle, all is fine. Then I tried to adjust my monitor for lamplight environment - I have changed R, G, B monitor settings, then adjusted gamma curves. Bars blend at the right values again - but sharpness test gives the rectangle with visible circle inside. That's not good. By adjusting gamma curves I have achieved the completely blended rectangle but now 10% green bar blend at 1.8 instead of 2.17 and 10% gray bar blend at 2.1 instead of 2.17.
So now I should choose between good look of sharpness test and good look of gamma calibration test. The gamma calibration test description says that 10% isn't very important but we always want best, not just good. What could be the reason of the issue? Wrong R, G, B values I believe 'cause I haven't changed anything else. So actually I have 3 choices: two ones I wrote above and non-ideally RGB for lamplight. So what to choose? Or maybe is there a soft test that will help me to change R, G, B correctly?

[huhn]

you can get "best" with a calibration like this it's totally impossible to get a good picture you need a gut device plus a colorimeter. else colors gamma and the rest are never perfect.

[GCRaistlin]

huhn, that's understood, but I'm talking about "best with what we have for now". So my question is simple - what is more important in my case: good-looking Gamma calibration test (bar blend at the right values), good-looking Sharpness test (the circle blends with the rectangle), or correct RGB monitor values? 'Cause I'm able to get only any 2 of 3 at the same time.

[foxyshadis]

Most monitors just can't be calibrated completely, even to sRGB, let alone to multiple targets or wider gamut. You're lucky you can get close enough to eyeball it as good in one viewing condition, so you might have to stick with that or something close. If your monitor doesn't have multiple user presets for multiple viewing conditions, it's way more trouble than it's worth to constantly change them back and forth; I just picked my usual (evening time) and stuck with it.

Ultimately, only you can say what's actually most important, but you're already 90% there or more, and the more tuning you do the less payoff is left. Getting 2 of 3 right and the third close is fantastic, given the dismal state of color on most monitors.

[GCRaistlin]

If your monitor doesn't have multiple user presets for multiple viewing conditions, it's way more trouble than it's worth to constantly change them back and forth; I just picked my usual (evening time) and stuck with it.
That's just the point that the usual conditions for me is lamplight while I've achieved best results for daylight. And no, my monitor doesn't really support multiple presets (to be precise, it does but RGB values aren't included to presets).
So am I right that the reason of my non-ideal adjusting for lamplight is non-ideal RGB monitor settings, not the fundamental impossibility of the ideal adjusting - 'cause for daylight I've found settings that are closer to the ideal?

[GCRaistlin]

I've made another attempt and finally got 3 of 3 for the lamplight! :)