Splitting 1000-page threads?

[MysteryX]

One question. What's the deal with 1000-page-long threads? That's very poorly structured, hard to ask anything and hard to track answers to that question.

madVR thread, for example, is very popular and currently has 1304 pages!

Just a suggestion. Why not create sub-forums for popular products instead of a single thread so that the comments can be organized? This would save a lot of time for a lot of people.

[Guest]

I don't think creating a bunch of subforums really is going to help with long threads. I recommend you learn to follow the current pages as they come and go by for the threads that are important to you, and use search. A long thread usually covers a fairly long history, and that's something worth keeping intact, IMHO.

Maybe Doom9 will explain his subforum policy but in the past he has been cautious about proliferating subforums, quite rightly I think.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

I also don't think that a lot of sub-forums are the solution here.

But if a thread grows to ~1000 pages, it is probably time for the author create separate threads for his product. For example, one thread for "general questions" (for users) and one for discussing technical details (for developers). Moderators might help to split the thread and move the posts. But with a thread that has like ~1000 pages this probably is kind of hopeless! So, at a certain point, you might want to simply close the old thread and start from the scratch ;)

Also: You don't need new sub-forums to create new threads for a specific topic/question. For example, if you which to discuss a specific aspect of MadVR, you don't need to post in the MadVR "main" thread. Instead, you could simply create a new thread in the "software players" forum - given that there is no thread for this specific aspect of MadVR already, of course!

After all, we have tons of threads discussing different aspects of x264, not just one monstrous x264 thread. So I don't see why this should be different with other software, such as MadVR...

[Doom9]

The thing with subforums is that if they don't generate enough traffic by themselves, they tend to wither and die. Likewise, the more subforums, the longer the list to scroll through from the top, thus making the ones at the bottom potentially less attractive as people who don't bother to scroll down will miss out.

If one topic keeps generating thread after thread over an extended period, then I'll create a new subforum. However, if there's one thread, even gigantic, that's not enough.
But if a thread grows to ~1000 pages, it is probably time for the author create separate threads for his product.Or users could just use different threads and mention the product in the title.

I think for madvr, the first step would be to start off perhaps a handful of threads and encourage the opening of new threads when something pops up.
I'd rather not force that on madshi though - as much as possible this forum should cater to the needs of the users and creators of the different software that is being discussed here.

I see your point about long threads being hard to navigate - why don't you ask madshi what he things about splitting things up in a few different thread or close the existing and create new ones).. we'll be happy to make this happen.

[MysteryX]

Yeah... if you go to madVR's website (http://www.madvr.com/), madshi made this threat their official forum.

He would be the one to change the way he encourages people to use the forum.

Because if I want to post a bug report or feature request, posting it in the 1000+ pages threat gives me no guarantee that my post will be seen and answered, and that I'll be able to see and track answers!

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Yeah... if you go to madVR's website (http://www.madvr.com/), madshi made this threat their official forum.

He would be the one to change the way he encourages people to use the forum.

Because if I want to post a bug report or feature request, posting it in the 1000+ pages threat gives me no guarantee that my post will be seen and answered, and that I'll be able to see and track answers!

Given the popularity of MadVR, I think it's time to setup a dedicated bugtracker...

[Guest]

Because if I want to post a bug report or feature request, posting it in the 1000+ pages threat gives me no guarantee that my post will be seen and answered, and that I'll be able to see and track answers! You are of course free to make a separate thread for your report, with, as Doom9 mentioned, "madVR" prominent in your title. Then it won't get drowned and scrolled off. But still, there is no guarantee that your thread will be seen and answered!

If madshi is recommending you to use his one large thread, then he is in effect committing to follow the thread and he will see all posts. If you think he has missed something, then make a polite post referring to the previous one. If that still elicits no response, then you have to assume that madshi, who does all this work for free, has no time or views it with a low enough priority that he doesn't want to address it, and that is his right. A final resort could be to PM madshi directly about it. I don't want to speak for madshi, so I'd welcome his input on this.

Possibly you are looking for some formal issue tracking system, as LoRd_MuldeR suggested. madshi may not have time, tools, and appropriate hosting to provide one. Even if he does, it is quite possible for your tracker item to be missed or ignored. It's happened to me several times for different prominent tools. Admittedly this is more likely for open source tools, where no single person is responsible.

I have PM'ed madshi to alert him to this thread and invited him to comment.

[madshi]

I'd like to keep everything in one thread for one key reason:

There are many experienced and knowledgable users subscribed to the madVR thread. Whenever a user has a problem, he can post there, and he'll often get useful feedback within minutes or just a couple of hours from other experienced users. Which means that I have to do less support work because other users are already doing some of the support work for me.

It would be possible to split "development" and "user support" into separate threads. But I fear many of the experienced users would then subscribe to the "development" thread, only, and I'd be alone in supporting the "user support" thread.

Maybe when I'm getting to the first non-beta release, namely v1.0, maybe then it could be an opportunity to retire the current thread and start a new one, just to give it a clean start. But I don't think it makes sense to do that now.

FWIW, I'm reading every post in the madVR thread and I'm replying to every post which I think needs a reply from me. Sometimes I'm busy with other projects, and I don't reply for a few days or even weeks (or months), but when I come back, I always reply to all posts I haven't replied to before. So there's really no risk for users that their post will be ignored or missed.

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If I could have one wish for improvement in the doom9 forum, it would be a much *much* larger storage size for the PMs (maybe even unlimited) - at least for active developers. My PM storage is getting full all the time. But I don't know if the forum software allows giving specific users different PM storage sizes?

Given the popularity of MadVR, I think it's time to setup a dedicated bugtracker...
There's already been a dedicated madVR bug tracker available for more than a year, linked to in the first post of the madVR thread. Here's the bug tracker direct link:

http://madVR.bugs.madshi.net

If you look into the madVR changelog, you'll find many "fixed: #bugNumber" references to the bug tracker.

[Guest]

I asked Swede for a PM storage bump and he kindly did so for me. Perhaps he can do that for you, given your important and prominent role at Doom9. Couldn't hurt to ask him.

And thanks for weighing in here.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

There's already been a dedicated madVR bug tracker available for more than a year, linked to in the first post of the madVR thread. Here's the bug tracker direct link:

http://madVR.bugs.madshi.net

If you look into the madVR changelog, you'll find many "fixed: #bugNumber" references to the bug tracker.

I see. However it doesn't seem to be linked on the web-site. At least I couldn't find it at a first glance. But there's a link to the MadVR thread ("Forum"), so that's probably where most people will start looking for help.

So you might want to link the bugtracker from the web-site more clearly. Also you might want to add a more prominent link to the bugtracker in the first post of the MadVR thread, in order to encourage people to use the bugtracker.

Maybe something like:
Please do not post bugreports in this thread! Use the dedicated bugtracker instead:
http://madvr.bugs.madshi.net/

[MysteryX]

Yes, encouraging end-users to use this existing bug-tracking link will help clean up the long thread. Perhaps having the link on the website, and highlighted in the thread's first post. I never saw it.

Developers may read the whole thread.

But frankly... users who are just reporting a bug or issue, they're not interesting in filtering through 10's of pages to see whether they were responded. Nor are they interested in the highly technical development discussions.

[Guest]

But frankly... users who are just reporting a bug or issue, they're not interesting in filtering through 10's of pages to see whether they were responded. Nor are they interested in the highly technical development discussions. Really, who appointed you to speak for all users?

If you feel so entitled, make your own thread. Is it so hard?

[MysteryX]

Really, who appointed you to speak for all users?
Neuron2, you assume I'm speaking for all users but I am speaking for myself.

In addition to the feedback I'm providing here, I have a request. In order to have the best environment where we can openly share our views in a constructive way, it is important to put aside any aggressive feedback or any pre-assumptions. Although your comment may contain something useful, it can very easily be taken in a negative way.

Instead, what I would recommend is to re-frame it in a positive way.

For example: "You really are speaking for yourself, it would be good to get feedback from other end-users" or even "That's your own opinion, and I don't agree with you"

or "Perhaps you could change the title of your thread to better represent the nature of the question"

See how that creates a whole different environment than saying "who appointed you to speak for everyone?" and "your post is off-topic, don't pick up a fight with admins"

Thank you

[MysteryX]

Thank you.

Back to the original topic, the main point is, the current way of doing it may not be ideal. There are various other options. It's just a matter of weighting the pros and cons of each. And there are definitely cons to switching the way it's organized, so waiting until v1 is also definitely an option.

I just threw that in here so that you can start thinking or planning about alternative ways.

[madshi]

I asked Swede for a PM storage bump and he kindly did so for me. Perhaps he can do that for you, given your important and prominent role at Doom9. Couldn't hurt to ask him.
Thanks, that sounds promising. You mean the doom9 user with the name "Swede"? Is he the über mod?

I see. However it doesn't seem to be linked on the web-site. At least I couldn't find it at a first glance. But there's a link to the MadVR thread ("Forum"), so that's probably where most people will start looking for help.
Which "the web-site" do you mean? madVR currently does not really have a web-site. If you mean "madVR.com", that's not my web-site and not hosted or edited by me. The only web-site I'm supporting myself is "http://madVR.madshi.net" which is a redirect to the doom9 madVR forum thread.

I've now edited the "readme.txt" to include a link to the bug tracker.

"Please do not post bugreports in this thread!"
It's not that straightforward, though. Many user problems are caused by a misconfiguration, or bugs in media players, or GPU driver problems, or just some weird non-reproducable problems. I prefer to have only clear reproducable bugs in the bug tracker. Because of that, if users are not sure whether they found a bug or not, I prefer if they ask in the forum first.

[Guest]

Thanks, that sounds promising. You mean the doom9 user with the name "Swede"? Is he the über mod? Doom9 is the forum owner and makes all the policies. Swede is the system admin who runs the server and implements Doom9's vision. They are "admins" as contrasted to "mods". Yes, you can reach Swede using that user name. He and Doom9 are both fine chaps IMHO. Together they are the ones to thank for this wonderful resource we call "Doom9".

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Which "the web-site" do you mean? madVR currently does not really have a web-site. If you mean "madVR.com", that's not my web-site and not hosted or edited by me.

Yup, that is the web-site I was referring to.

[madshi]

Doom9 is the forum owner and makes all the policies. Swede is the system admin who runs the server and implements Doom9's vision. They are "admins" as contrasted to "mods". Yes, you can reach Swede using that user name. He and Doom9 are both fine chaps IMHO. Together they are the ones to thank for this wonderful resource we call "Doom9".
Ah, good to know!

[QBhd]

A little OT, but worth the side track... HUGE thanks to both Swede and Doom9. I skim each and every "New Posts" thread title everyday. This is an amazing resource.

QB

[foxyshadis]

At least this is bringing people together to have a discussion.

Personally, I think having a new thread with each major version is important to regular users, perhaps with a final post pointing to each new one; nothing in first 900 pages really applies to current madvr, it makes determining which reports were from which build a bit quicker, and new users are less inclined to get spooked and leave for being overwhelmed. (Heck, I get overwhelmed.) This way you can quickly start fresh with a new version's issues without purging history. It just means changing the site redirect every release.

I do appreciate that you make the effort to update the first post with every release, madshi. Thanks to that, you don't have to follow the thread to stay current, unlike some of the other huge threads.

If there's a need to answer common questions and someone creates a good MadVR FAQ, I'll sticky it.

As for development threads, I couldn't care less. Let devs run their development however they want. And of course everything I say here is only my own two cents, not that of the forum.

[madshi]

Atm I still don't consider madVR to be feature complete. Let's revisit the topic when I reach v1.0, which is still some time away. At that point I plan to also have a full help/documentation, maybe even assistants to automate configuration, as far as reasonable. So a lot of things will change with v1.0, which would make v1.0 a good opportunity to rethink the doom9 madVR "thread logic". Until then I'd prefer to continue with the one big monster thread. It has worked quite well so far (for me, at least), so I see no reason to change it before v1.0.