Playback of telecined video

[turbojet]

I'm having an awfully tough time coming up with anything that looks acceptable of playing back hard telecined video except for wmc/wmp which plays it great.

Here's a sample: http://fs02n1.sendspace.com/dl/a27d096008dc2be03e080b8a62dda348/52ce637e3b59309e/rlcvma/telecined.mpg

Things that I've tried that have failed:
- madvr force film, deint=ivtc
- lav filters deinterlacing
- bob deinterlace in avisynth
- evr and ms dtv decoder (wmc/wmp?)
- ivtc in avisynth during playback
- playing ivtc.avs, this works well except some hiccups

However film at 60p (http://fs08n3.sendspace.com/dl/141a95ab55793cd1fdb50a447946c0b4/52cefbb07887b2a7/bfzo88/60p.mpg) plays fine. Any ideas on how to get watchable results of hard telecined video outside of wmc/wmp?

Also how is wmc/wmp able to handle it well?

[Sharc]

Did you try with TFM (http://avisynth.org.ru/docs/english/externalfilters/tivtc_tfm.htm), (possibly followed by tdecimate()?
(I didn't try your file as the file hoster seems to download some crap or installer ....)

[turbojet]

Yes and decomb, fdecimate, it, smartdecimate, horrible during playback, occasional frame drops playing avs.

I wonder why some get the download wizard, never have here. Does http://fs02n1.sendspace.com/dl/a27d096008dc2be03e080b8a62dda348/52ce637e3b59309e/rlcvma/telecined.mpg work?

[Sharc]

assumeTFF()
Yadif(mode=1,order=1) #or any other bobber you prefer
srestore(frate=23.976)
#assumefps(25)

results in a smooth progressive playback here.

[dukey]

The video has a pretty simple pattern
If you are using avisynth you can use
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=82264
TIVTC
It will decimate the duplicate fields

[turbojet]

Tivtc, decomb, etc. handle it well while encoding but during playback (ffdshow/avisynth) it's not good at all. If it's an avs file and then played it's fine most of the time but at random times it drops 100's of frames in seconds (no core is above 50% at any time) which is almost worse then watching it interlaced. I would think it would be relatively simple to achieve acceptable results, so simple wmc/wmp have no problem with it.

[Sharc]

yes, my script is ok for encoding rather than for real time playback.
Did you try different renderers?

[dukey]

Re-encode the video file then.

[turbojet]

Tried all the renderers in mpc and potplayer, none made a difference.

The ultimate goal is to move from wmc to potplayer (mpc doesn't work for atsc here) for live tv to get madvr and pixel shaders. Encoding or avs playing isn't possible on live tv afaik, which this is, common usa hd. 60i video works fine, it's just this hard telecined 60i that fails and that's a majority of what I watch.

Wmc/wmp secret to playing these nice and smooth is still a mystery.

[dukey]

Probably because in wmp its using motion adaptive deinterlacing to turn the file into 60fps, hence the smoothness.

[turbojet]

Is there any way to do that outside of wmc/wmp?

Potplayer has motion adaptive (2x) software deinterlacing but the results aren't good, along with the rest of potplayer deinterlacers.

[nevcairiel]

Looks fine with madVR forced into film mode to me, it detects a expected 3:2 cadence and everything.
But then your clip has a rather shaky camera to being with, making it hard to actually see if everything is perfectly smooth.

[turbojet]

I had when in doubt disable deinterlacing set and it wasn't deinterlacing. Switching when in doubt to enable, enabled it and film mode works great, thanks.

In a 43 minute show, there was 51 cadence breaks, 4 dropped, 1 delayed. 10-15 of those breaks were noticeable, sufficient but expecting better, it's a real simple 3:2 pattern throughout.

[Sharc]

I got reasonable playback results here with VLC:
Video=>deinterlace=>ON
Video=>deinterlace mode=>Film NTSC (IVTC)

If you have NVIDIA you could also try MPC-HC with CUVID enabled:
Filters=>LAV Video Decoder=>Hardware Decoder to use: NVIDIA CUVID

[sheppaul]

Is there any way to do that outside of wmc/wmp?

Enable internal DxVA and use EVR C/P rather than madVR.

wmp/wmc prolly use hardware deinterlacing as well as hardware decoding.

[dukey]

Tivtc, decomb, etc. handle it well while encoding but during playback (ffdshow/avisynth) it's not good at all. If it's an avs file and then played it's fine most of the time but at random times it drops 100's of frames in seconds (no core is above 50% at any time) which is almost worse then watching it interlaced. I would think it would be relatively simple to achieve acceptable results, so simple wmc/wmp have no problem with it.

IVTC is actually a very hard problem. A lot of the time, when video gets cut and edited, and has post processing done on it, it may not be possible to reliably get 24fps back. IVTC may also give you residual interlacing artefacts, so in the end you are probably better off using one of the smart motion adaptive deinterlacers. EVR does this pretty much as standard.

[turbojet]

Potplayer+evr+lav cuvid = no deinterlacing
Potplayer+evr+lav dxva2 = no deinterlacing
Potplayer+evr+internal dxva (limited to idct) = no deinterlacing
vlc+ivtc = fine and auto deinterlacing detects correctly
mpc-hc+evr+internal dxva2 (lav) = deinterlaced nicely but not very smooth, 60hz display

VLC seems to ivtc more effectively then madvr and has proper interlaced detection. Madvr's interlaced detection seems mostly broken and it's often in doubt. Feeding it 60i or deinterlaced 30 fps it's in doubt, while potplayer and vlc detect correctly. Hopefully madshi will find some time to work on this detection and avoiding so many noticeable cadence breaks, it's mostly on very low motion scenes where it's noticeable. I'll keep switching madvr's in doubt settings to watch live tv with potplayer and if that becomes a hassle will move to vlc which is much lower picture quality but still an option. MPC isn't an option, doesn't work with astc.

I can understand cutting could effect proper ivtc but with tivtc and decomb it's never been a problem. The overlaid stuff flying around is another matter, madvr seems to handle that well while decomb doesn't and doesn't have the ability to. tivtc needs to be tweaked with clip2 to handle it correctly.

[Sharc]

I don't know potplayer, but can't you just disable it's internal filters and let it pick Windows default filters?

What filters does graphstudio (http://www.videohelp.com/tools/GraphStudio)pick? I get a smooth & deinterlaced playback here.

[turbojet]

Yes, potplayer can do that.

LAV splitter -> LAV video is what I setup with codec windows 7 filter tweaker. More importantly, what are you using to get nice playback?

[Sharc]

I just used graphstudio to see which filters it picks. For watching I used the graphstudio internal viewer.
Playback was smooth and deinterlaced with both the 32 and 64 bit version of graphstudio (filters were different of course). I am on Windows 7/64.
I assumed when you could configure potplayer to use the same filters it should give similar good results.