Samsung TV and HTPC

[Asmodian]

Maybe they really are interlaced and you TV does automatic deinterlacing?

I know when I used interlaced refresh rates in the past they were really interlaced.

[JanWillem32]

The options in that drop-down menu are just labels. The actual refresh rates are determined by the graphics adapter's driver. It is possible to link such labels to refresh rates not even close to the label's number. I don't know where the "(interlaced)" labels come from. The system-to-driver interfaces do not allow setting that specific property at all under Windows XP. Actually, Windows XP is really bad at communicating information about refresh rates through normal system calls to begin with. The only way for a program to find out the current display refresh rate for instance, is by actively tracking VBlank intervals, or ask the monitor/graphics adapter's driver through a vendor-specific driver interface call.

[leeperry]

Yeah, Vista came with Aero for a good reason.....XP is either technically obsolete or drivers for new gear barely work, if at all. Intel didn't release USB3 drivers for XP because it's just not worth their time to reinvent the wheel, luckily NEC's USB3 drivers appear to work fine but they come with a resident app that takes over.

TBH it's a miracle that mVR works on XP, all other VR's fail IME due to the VSYNC flip time problem Jan just explained and also the lack of a proper timer source(HPET and later Invariant TSC came to the rescue).

Anyway my point was that +90% of TV's are used to watch low bitrate 4:2:0 HDTV, nobody is willing to pay for TOTL post-processing and especially the R&D that would be required. There's always a low input lag 4:4:4 mode for gamers that will disable the 4:2:2 pp, that's it.

It's interesting to see that Eizo recently released a computer monitor that runs a 120Hz 5K:1 UV²A panel that's able to process 240Hz BFI in 4:4:4(and not 4:2:2 like Sammy TV's) but yeah, 500€ for 24" :D

[hello_hello]

XP is fine here. I've not had any driver problems yet, even when installing the NEC/Renesas USB3 drivers.
The refresh rates marked as interlaced work fine, I just don't know why they're labelled as interlaced. They're only labelled that way in Windows display properties, not the Nvidia control panel. If I select a refresh rate such as 24Hz, the TV displays 24Hz as the refresh rate. Reclock seems to agree.

Then again, I've never understood why Reclock seems to label all video as interlaced either (ie 720x400i), assuming that's what the "i" means.

[leeperry]

It's a known cosmetic bug in Reclock IIRC, this piece of software is full of cosmetic "glitches" that James can't be hassled to address. It even lies on the actual resampled rate, which is the opposite of what it shows(48048>47952).

The GTX600 serie is no workee on XP with mVR(or any other VR for that matter) IME and the HD87xx drivers come with their own bag of non-blocking -yet annoying- bugs, also the new rendering path of mVR has always been a no-go on XP IME so yes it does take quite a lot of luck to run mVR with XP on recent hardware. And forget about DXVA2 CP while you're at it.

madshi was also clear that XP acts as a bottleneck when using mVR due to its sloppy presentation, I guess he'd know ;)

[leeperry]

BTW, there's a major catch with disabling the built-in 4:2:2 pp on those cheapo Sammy TV's: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ue55f8000-201303212755.htm?page=Performance

the Samsung UE55F8000 can show all 1080 lines in a scrolling resolution test chart, provided that the [Motion Plus] system is engaged. With this feature off, you’ll see the usual LCD motion performance, which delivers just 300 lines worth of clear details. That’s enough for 24fps movies to appear without much in the way of discernable blur, but fast, high motion content like televised sports will still appear with some.

No BFI/FI, no 1080p motion when you force them into 4:4:4 PC mode.

And as much as Sharp lead the VA market with their 5K:1 UV²A panels, AUO very much lag behind...their newest A-MVA revision trades CR for response time (http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1040185432&postcount=236), the GW2760HS being the perfect example: black is light gray at 0.06 but response time is very good compared to their older panels(including my current Sammy TV that runs an AUO panel as proven by its factory menu).

Manufacturers don't have much time left before OLED will take over and most ppl don't care about CR(otherwise LG wouldn't sell so well) so I guess Sharp aren't too willing to drop the prices of their UV²A panels.

[pirlouy]

Wow... So much abbreviations ! :D

I'm not sure to see a problem. We don't need Samsung "BFI/FI" for Motion since madVR has this FRC feature.

[leeperry]

You need Black Frames Insertion(Sammy's "LED Clear Motion") to get 1080p, mVR's FRC will only add blur on top of blur (http://forum.videohelp.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2572&d=1306421480) if you run the TV in 4:4:4 mode.

Also, the PC mode reverts to their "native" gamut that's not nearly as good as when it's set to "auto".

No free lunch to be had I'm afraid, either you get Jinc3 AR chroma from mVR or 1080p motion.

Same story with that Eizo I mentioned earlier: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/eizo_fg2421.htm
When switching Turbo 240 on there was a significant improvement in the clarity of the moving image. [..] The moving object is noticeably sharper and easier to track across the screen with the eye. It appears sharper and nearly all the motion blur you saw before is eliminated.
Of course it does work in 4:4:4, and it'd better for the price ^^

It should also be noted that in the F5000 serie you get BFI but in the 6+ you are forced to enable FI to get BFI, and their FI hiccups on 24p input..

You might find that review (http://www.hdfever.fr/2012/07/23/test-samsung-ue55es8000/#postTabs_ul_30976) interesting:
Gamut: Auto mode offers more natural colors than Native mode which displays oversaturated colors.

[pirlouy]

Ah Leeperry and his eternal research for perfection ! :D
Again, thank you for sharing your links/knowledge.

How do you know this FI is not active only in Samsung F5xxx series and not 6xxx+ etc ? Anyway I guess if you want this BFI you'll have to quit the "PC mode".
A bit off-topic right now, but it was mentioned earlier, the "Game Mode" offered by Samsung does not disable post-processing (4:2:2 conversion etc.). It just enables different post-processing (improving image quality ? anti-aliasing ? Or less CPU algorithms for input lag ? I don't know).
FYI, maybe my menu is lying, but when in "monitor mode", the color space is grayed out on "Auto".

For the BFI, my TV does not have any FI/BFI at all so I don't lose anything. But I have my doubts about this BFI interest (in your Eizo test, it has some drawbacks too). Nothing can really fight against pixel persistence. We just need a new technology with no image persistence... (praying OLED :p)

[leeperry]

Which exact model do you have? Sammy call BFI "LED Clear Motion" and FI "Motion Plus". In the 2002 ES series you could toggle them separately but in the 2003 F series, only the 5xxx will allow you to enable BFI without funky FI on top of it.

It's really simple, either you get 1080p motion by enabling 4:2:2 BFI or you get a 4:4:4 blurry mess....pick your poison :devil:

Sammy TV's got two different modes, one is called "game" and the other "PC", only the latter allows full chroma input.

[pirlouy]

Ola... LED is not even present in my TV. :)
I have the model named 40B530 (from 2009) so no choice ! :D

Anyway I would pick 4:4:4 at 60Hz anyway. I can live without BFI.
In my model, there's only a game mode, no "PC" mode. You have to rename an entry in "PC" or "PC DVI" and use the HDMI 1 entry.

[leeperry]

Oh, I guess CCFL would be too slow for strobing but on their LED TV's the price to pay for full chroma is blurry movements.

[huhn]

i would love a tv with bfi or something similar and 4:4:4 doesn't sound that hard to make real if you ask me

[leeperry]

Most TV's come with BFI these days but some manufacturers master it (much) better than others IME.

The point is not whether 4:4:4 BFI would be challenging, especially as it's often only making the backlight strobe.....it's just that Sammy don't allow it if you activate the low input lag "game" mode or the 4:4:4 PC mode.

Only OCD'ed computer users care about 4:4:4 BFI, so this niche markets calls for overpriced products from companies such as EIZO.

The nice added value of enabling the 4:2:2 post-processing on those Sammy's is that you benefit from BFI, DNIE (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1600258&postcount=15433), REC709'ish gamut, 24/50Hz support, etc etc....I've tried really hard to keep it hardcore 4:4:4 but it's 60Hz-only and the ghosting from mVR's FRC (http://forum.videohelp.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2572&d=1306421480) on top of the TV ghosting are quite unbearable tbh, it's blurryland whenever something moves basically. The LCD technology requires BFI by design IMHO, at least BenQ says so: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/benq_fp241w_3.htm
By inserting a black frame every few frames, the technology helps 'clean' the human eye of moving images and in real terms, is designed to improve perceived responsiveness. This process artificially helps cloak the ghosting artefacts from the moving image and the human visual system automatically combines the inserted black frame with the image either side of it.
BenQ is owned by AUO, one of the biggest LCD manufacturers behind LG and prolly Sammy.

[Asmodian]

Only OCD'ed computer users care about 4:4:4 BFI, so this niche markets calls for overpriced products from companies such as EIZO

Wouldn't console gamers want 4:4:4 with BFI too? Low motion blur without chroma blur sounds good to me, does the BFI add input lag? I would think not as it should be strobing the backlight and not doing other PP. LCDs seem to need BFI for any type of content to have low motion blur.

But I do appear to fall into the "OCD'ed computer user" category. :p

[nevcairiel]

Console games are typically 60Hz to begin with, the blur is much less severe there as it is, so its not really all that important for gaming.
With movies its so bad because the movie footage itself already has motion blur, and the LCD blur adds on top of that.

[leeperry]

AFAIK The sole and only official reason (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1381724/official-4-4-4-chroma-subsampling-thread/0_100) why there is a 4:4:4 PC mode in most modern flat screens is that font rendering suffers a lot in 4:2:2 (http://s807.photobucket.com/user/floatpoo/media/444_faq/test2_a.png.html?sort=3&o=17).

This said, maybe some ClearType finetuning might come to the rescue.

OTOH, not even picture files show obvious differences as it would appear (http://s807.photobucket.com/user/floatpoo/media/444_faq/test2_b.png.html).

It took decades of R&D to TV manufacturers to polish their 4:2:2 post-processing and 4:4:4 chroma for movies might not matter all that much when it was 4:2:0 in the first place..not even mVR can magically create data that didn't exist in the first place.

[pirlouy]

So in fact, Chroma upscaling from madVR is not that important to you ? And finally, you think it's better not to use TV as monitor when watching movie (unlike JanWillem32 or Asmodian in this thread) ?

[nevcairiel]

Its not that chroma upscaling is not important, some other factors that the 4:2:2 mode gives you might be more important. For movies, many people will be hard-pressed to actually reliably see the difference, especially in motion.
No question there is a huge advantage for PC content, gaming and the like.

There is a reason many people that did extensive testing on the upscaling topic will tell you that Bicubic chroma scaling is all you need, and any "better" algorithms don't really improve anything anymore.
The step from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 is already a huge difference and way more visible then 4:2:2 to 4:4:4. Of course, some people disagree, but we all have our different priorities. :)

[leeperry]

I'm only saying that there is an existing consensus that it would be next to impossible to DBT differences between mVR's chroma upsampling algorithms on most 4:2:0 video content and that it would take some real-world comparisons between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 playback before advising that the former is so much better than the latter. Especially when going full chroma with TV's disables all their post-processing such as DNIE/BFI/gamut adjustments and so on. The price to pay is very high and the actual benefit might just not be worth it.

[pirlouy]

So in the end, you have quite a good opinion of these TV post-processing.
Leeperry, I know you've tried several LCD, do you think there's a brand who does a better job with post-processing ? I think I read once you was quite impressed by this Dnie from Samsung. Is this still actual ? Or have you found major defaults ?

Concerning BFI, do you think it has still an utility with a technology like OLED (with low image persistence) ?

[nevcairiel]

Concerning BFI, do you think it has still an utility with a technology like OLED (with low image persistence) ?

Image retention/persistence can still be a problem with OLED, since both OLED and LCD are inherently sample-and-hold displays, which causes image retention in your eye.

The big advantage with OLED (and some LED LCD displays today, especially Sony Crystal LED display) is that you have much better control about the actual light coming off each pixel, so you can turn the light off much better to avoid these issues, but its not magically solved just by the tech itself.

[leeperry]

OLED is still at the late prototype stage at this point, both korean manufacturers are still trying their luck handling the problem with blue subpixels and the chinese haven't jumped on the bandwagon just yet (http://www.digitalversus.com/tv-television/tcl-invests-2-5-billion-new-oled-factory-n31593.html).

By the time we can get sub-1K€ >=32" OLED's, all this will have more than likely settled down and drastically improved.

The problem with Sammy TV's is the panel and backlight homogeneity lotteries, you have to check the former in the factory menu and the latter in a pitch black room.....it took me literally a dozen attempts to finally locate a 3500:1 CR 0.04 cd/m² black AUO Sammy TV with bearable vertical banding. The amount of energy and perseverance required were entirely worth it but all in all this was a highly frustrating experience and I would think twice before going through it all over again.

If I were you, I would try to locally demo a Panasonic plasma and score one for cheap as these will be reaching EOL soon and there are sellers trying to get rid of them while they still can: http://www.dealabs.com/search/?q=panasonic+plasma ;)

[pirlouy]

Thanks you both for all these info.

I'm not into plasma. Too heavy (strange argument I know). I'm ok with my actual TV, considering some years ago, I was watching movies with VMR-9... It helps me not to fall in the perfection illness. :D

If I had to change I'd prefer to go with a bigger TV (50+) instead of a better image.

[Qaq]

I agree that TVs are not perfect with RGB. Thats why I said few times in madVR's thread that I'd be happy to see HDCP protected YCbCr output (422 or 444 optional). Not sure though madVR is able to process everything in YCbCr.

[nevcairiel]

I agree that TVs are not perfect with RGB. Thats why I said few times in madVR's thread that I'd be happy to see HDCP protected YCbCr output (422 or 444 optional). Not sure though madVR is able to process everything in YCbCr.

GPUs are pretty much incapable of direct YCbCr output.
You'll have one RGB step in between, which defeats the entire purpose.

[pirlouy]

I've done some tests: I've chosen a video, paused on an image, and compared "Monitor mode" and "Samsung Post-processing mode". And indeed, image by Samsung with PP is better. I guess it would be possible to do the same with some shaders. I think it's just a modification of original image to "look" better, but it works.
So in the end, I think it's better not to change original image and let the TV do the PP. For now I let the TV handle the 24fps instead of using madVR FRC.
Maybe Samsung PP has better upscaling algorithms than those from Madshi ? Are there some comparative between both ? Or it's not even debatable and I'm way too confident about my TV ? :confused:

[leeperry]

mVR's goal is to output the best looking "true to the source" PQ, DNIE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppKDqer2zs8)'s job is to overcome the very limitations of the TV(poor black level, poor native CR and ghosting)....disable the latter and experience the consequences.

It should also be noted that even 10yo projectors worked in 10/12bit so you can rest assured that DNIE works in at least 10 and more than likely 12bit ;)

Just for fun, here's a comparison between the 8bit Sanyo PLV-Z2 and the 10bit Z3 (http://www.son-video.com/images/static/Rayons/HomeCinema/VideoProj/Sanyo/PLVZ3_PixelWorks_FX_m.jpg), I owned both simultaneously, compared them using the "300" movie and I can confirm that the Z2 was unbearably snowy. The Z4 went 12bit eventually.

[Qaq]

GPUs are pretty much incapable of direct YCbCr output.
You'll have one RGB step in between, which defeats the entire purpose.
Just like that? :) Care to provide a bit more details?
I'm only saying that there is an existing consensus that it would be next to impossible to DBT differences between mVR's chroma upsampling algorithms on most 4:2:0 video content and that it would take some real-world comparisons between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 playback before advising that the former is so much better than the latter. Especially when going full chroma with TV's disables all their post-processing such as DNIE/BFI/gamut adjustments and so on. The price to pay is very high and the actual benefit might just not be worth it.
This guy thinks different: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1505166/do-most-tvs-now-support-4-4-4-which-ones-original-thread-not-updated/60#post_24134317
If I use madVR upsampling on my HTPC, it is visibly degraded when I switch my TV to a mode which processes chroma in 4:2:2 rather than 4:4:4, when all else is equal.
This is not a result of image processing, but a result of discarding half the chroma resolution.
leeperry, I guess I've missed something, but how does a colorblind guy may judge about colors at all? Sorry if anything.

[leeperry]

Sorry
Apologies accepted.

Lemme clear this up once again for ya: with the ES/F LED Sammy TV's, the deal is very simple, it's either blurry 4:4:4 with a wide gamut or BFI 4:2:2 in a REC709 gamut. The LCD technology is worthless without BFI in many ppl's opinion (http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/benq_fp241w_3.htm).

Subjective impressions are nice and all but they are meaningless without screenshots comparisons and FWIS in the OP of that AVS thread, only computer fonts suffer from 4:2:2.

[pirlouy]

In fact, it's impossible to compare a TV in 4:2:2 mode and in monitor mode (4:4:4). Even with screenshot, since the post processing is done by TV after Windows output. For real comparison, it would need a fixed camera, and TV should not have any post-processing in 4:2:2 (which is not the case).

IMO, "Chronoptimist" can't say he loses something, it's just post-processing he does not like in its TV.

[panetesan2k6]

Nice thread, Pirlouy :) I was going to write something of the sort as I've been doing some testing with MadVR and related tools.

I have a Samsung 32" B651 model, but I also tested my grandparents' Samsung 40" EH5300, with same results.

Here are my notes:

About the auto-dimming, I never had it in 'Movie' picture mode. It's the only picture mode not applying it. Have you tried it?

About chroma subsampling: Connecting the PC to the HDMI/DVI input and setting the label PC/DVI PC to enter this "PC mode" still has some post-processing going on that prevent the TV from displaying the picture *exactly* as a PC monitor would. Yes, I see the 4:4:4 but the 4:2:2 is still visible, and doesn't look like it looks in a PC monitor ("liney" and faint). I only got the exact same picture of a PC monitor through the TV by going into the Service Menu, where the TV, it seems, disables almost every postprocessing. You can try yourself and double-check with a fullhd pcmonitor. So, what's going on when we put the TV in PC mode? Does it really go for 4:4:4? Maybe, but there is something else that tampers with the picture.

Also: I connected my laptop to a PC monitor with HDMI and VGA inputs, outputting both VGA and HDMI cloned desktop @1080p and displayed every test that I have switching from input to input. Both pictures looked absolutly the same to the naked eye, even in the sharpness tests. Doing the same thing to the TV got me a much worse picture in the VGA input. Sharpness is awful (try lagom lcd test), with "greenish" blending and chroma seems off, but I think, because of the sharpness being so bad. Maybe the analog to digital conversor in this sets is just cheap, I don't know.

PS: I have yet to test the game mode. I'll report back.

[pirlouy]

My family also have EH5500. And I've noticed indeed when in "Movie" mode, there's not this "CE dimming".
But in my TV, even in "movie" mode, this CE dimming is enabled. The worst part: even in service menu, you can't disable this CE dimming. It is written it is already disable.
I've also noticed this "service menu" is indeed without post-processing (no Ce dimming for example).

For image quality when in 4:4:4 mode, it looks well to me. I don't even notice input lags compared to my 120Hz monitor which let me think there's no post-processing. But I can't say you're wrong, that's quite possible there's still some kind of post-processing even in this mode.

For VGA mode, I have not tested, and don't feel like testing. :/

Thank you for your input and I'll read about your testing in gaming mode. For my TV, there's a bug in Game Mode, some parameters goes crazy and even if you change settings, the next time you restart your TV, settings are lost. I've tried to contact Samsung but without success. But this game mode is not interesting IMO.

[panetesan2k6]

My family also have EH5500. And I've noticed indeed when in "Movie" mode, there's not this "CE dimming".
But in my TV, even in "movie" mode, this CE dimming is enabled. The worst part: even in service menu, you can't disable this CE dimming. It is written it is already disable.
I've also noticed this "service menu" is indeed without post-processing (no Ce dimming for example).

For image quality when in 4:4:4 mode, it looks well to me. I don't even notice input lags compared to my 120Hz monitor which let me think there's no post-processing. But I can't say you're wrong, that's quite possible there's still some kind of post-processing even in this mode.

For VGA mode, I have not tested, and don't feel like testing. :/

Thank you for your input and I'll read about your testing in gaming mode. For my TV, there's a bug in Game Mode, some parameters goes crazy and even if you change settings, the next time you restart your TV, settings are lost. I've tried to contact Samsung but without success. But this game mode is not interesting IMO.

Glad you like my comments.

Concerning "Game Mode", I can say for a fact that, on my B651 (didn't test on the EH5300), it's 4:2:2. Quite disappointing...

PS: Regarding VGA testing, there is much controversy about HDMI output. I thought that, if I want to know wether my TV "acts" like a real pc monitor, the best way to find out is to feed it with an unequivocally pc signal through a typical pc input. The only thing that is killing me is a sharpness issue I have that, I think, comes from me trashing some setting in the service menu...

[smok3]

Not sure what model my Samsung is, but what I noticed is that the TVs internal h.264 decoder is way better than anything I can supply with my mac via hdmi (always getting substantial banding).

p.s. Since i recently upgraded to Mavericks (and Cuda stuff is up to date as well) I may retry the experiment.

[leeperry]

But the internal decoder is 60Hz-only AFAIK and no Jinc scaling either ^^

On the 2013 F serie, the auto black dimming is inactive in PC mode.

[smok3]

But the internal decoder is 60Hz-only AFAIK and no Jinc scaling either ^^

I'd notice that, I'am pretty sure screen does frequency switching based on input, although I don't see how is that connected to decoder?

[leeperry]

well, I mean the built-in player doesn't support 24/50Hz AFAIK.

[XMonarchY]

Does anyone have a Samsung TV that ca ndo 4:4:4 (PC Mode) without locking out the CMS adjustment/calibration settings? Every Samsung TV I come about completely ignored manual CMS adjustments in user/service menus and its native factory calibration in 4:4:4 / PC Mode is absolutely horrible - very inaccurate colors, but not as bad as TN panels... It can't even produce very accurate colors when I use ArgyllCMS madVR 3DLUT made from 2527 patches. I'd have to use about 4300+ patches to get to the same accuracy level as 4:2:2 mode and only a 2527 patch 3DLUT. Its the same for CCFL/LED LCD and plasma sets I ever dealt with (and there were quite a few...). It also cannot enter a 48Hz judder-free mode when in PC Mode, while regular mode with 23Hz refresh rate produces some very mild judder, but not enough for madVR to detect and enable Smooth Motion.

4:2:2 mode is a different story - I can adjust CMS and create a 3DLUT on top with exceptionally accurate results. Its also very interesting to note that 4:2:2 Movie mode produces very nasty-looking odd-coloration text, while Standard 4:2:2 mode produces fine and sharp text (almost as good as PC 4:4:4 Mode), even with sharpness set to 0 and edge enhancement turned off completely. Using this test - http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png my TV's Movie 4:2:2 Mode shows "4:2:2" and very obvious edge-discoloration around "4:4:4", while Standard 4:2:2 Mode shows "4:2:2" and "4:4:4" with only a super-tiny & barely-visible edge discoloration, requiring close inspection to even notice!! PC 4:4:4 Mode, however, does not show "4:2:2" at all, but shows "4:4:4" without any discoloration. How is it possible that my Standard 4:2:2 Mode produces barely-visible discoloration around "4:4:4" edges while Movie 4:2:2 Mode shows such an obvious one? Considering this phenomenon, would it be of any noticeable advantage to me to use PC 4:4:4 Mode over Standard 4:2:2 Mode with such a slight discoloration? Whenever I switch between Move 4:2:2 Mode and PC 4:4:4 Mode - I see a big different in text and videos, but when I compare Standard 4:2:2 Mode and PC 4:4:4 Mode - I see little-to-no difference in text and videos from 1-2ft away from the screen with my 20/15 vision. I can also notice a much better image quality when using madVR OpenCL dithering and NNEDI3 for Chroma Upscaling and Image Doubling, features that are supposedly sharpen visuals only for 4:4:4 chroma subsampling modes. I'm not sure what to make of this Standard 4:2:2 Mode that performs so much closer to proper PC 4:4:4 Mode than to Movie 4:2:2 Mode, which, supposedly, is the mode that uses the least amount of processing (yet looks the worst!)... Pseudo-4:4:4 Mode? I used sharpness settings from PC 4:4:4 Mode Service Menu for Standard 4:2:2 Mode Service Menu sharpness settings, which completely eliminated ringing that was present in Standard 4:2:2 Mode originally, even when sharpness was was set to 0 and edge enhancement was disabled in User Menu.

I also enable Game Mode while in Standard 4:2:2 Mode to reduce input lag and some TV video processing. Game Mode input lag is slightly higher than PC 4:4:4 Mode input lag, but much lower than regular Standard and/or Movie modes input lag. Game Mode description states that it may reduce image quality, but I figured that it would not apply to my case since my PC and madVR do the rendering and having a less-processed signal would only benefit the image quality. Game Mode does not influence the "Pseudo-4:4:4" sharpness though.

[fagoatse]

Funny thing is that my high-end samsung plasma from 2010 disables scaling options incl. screen fit(which is 1:1 mapping) and leaves 16:9(2.5% overscan, required option for pixel shift) and 4:3 available. In fact I can enable pixel shift but in reality there's no overscan present so it's probably a bug in firmware. I assume there's no scaling performed by the display processor in the PC mode?

[pirlouy]

Indeed, if you choose the right option in menu (don't remember the name), there's no scaling nor overscan (on my model).

[kiwijunglist]

so for sending a 4:2:2 signal to their samsung tv, what bit rate do people prefer? (ie 8/10/12 bits per channel)?

Does the samsung tv have any problems handling 4:2:2 12bpc/36bit?

I've confirmed that the display can accept 10bpc using a 1024 level gradient and turning off dithering in the renderer and with a registry edit.

My dedicated htpc setup is
i3-2100 / win7x64 / hd7750 / madvr
samsung ua60h6400 - 2014 6 series 3d samsung lcd.

[XMonarchY]

Apparently my Samsung HDTV does 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 at the same time - http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172292 in Standard mode (NOT PC mode, which won't use calibrated color gamut / colorspace) with Gaming mode that reduces input lag and TV's internal processing to a point of being almost as responsive as true PC mode, but just a tad slower (a LOT faster than Movie mode).

[nevcairiel]

Apparently my Samsung HDTV does 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 at the same time - http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172292 in Standard mode (NOT PC mode, which won't use calibrated color gamut / colorspace) with Gaming mode that reduces input lag and TV's internal processing to a point of being almost as responsive as true PC mode, but just a tad slower (a LOT faster than Movie mode).

The test image isn't fool proof. If the TV does a lot of image processing, then it may destroy the special effect that it tries to use.

[XMonarchY]

The test image isn't fool proof. If the TV does a lot of image processing, then it may destroy the special effect that it tries to use.

Yeah, but the MOST processing is done in Movie mode, which is obviously 4:2:2 and text looks awful in Movie mode. Movie mode also has the highest input lag, making gaming almost impossible.

Standard mode text looks really good, 100x better than Movie mode text, but not as perfectly fine as true PC mode text. In addition, I enabled Game mode in Standard mode, which greatly reduces input lag and removes at least some of TV's internal processing, making my mouse/controller/keyboard very responsive.

Text is usually the best indicator of 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 and in this Hybrid mode, text looks great.

[huhn]

the is no such thing as "hybrid" mode.
and don't take your screen as in indicator how all screens work.
wasn't pretty old too?

[XMonarchY]

the is no such thing as "hybrid" mode.
and don't take your screen as in indicator how all screens work.
wasn't pretty old too?

Yes it is old - from 2009. Let's not pollute this thread further though - let's discuss it in that other one I made.