Trouble with MPC-HC playing Kill Bill forced subs

[Frankenscript]

Hi folks,

Title says it all. I've got the latest 1.7.0 stable build of MPC-HC using essentially all standard default settings. It plays most forced subtitles in my MKVs just fine, though sometimes I have to manually turn them on or off, depending on how they were mastered.

However, I recently ripped (with MakeMKV 1.8.5) Kill Bill Vol 1 bluray, and the resulting MKV plays in MPC-HC but does not give forced subtitles for the parts where they are speaking Japanese no matter what I do. I've tried manually enabling each of the several listed sub tracks. No dice.

The exact same file plays with subs just fine in VLC Player.

I tried remuxing, with MKVMerge, resulting in just the video/audio/forced sub tracks. No extra sub tracks at all. STill, works fine with VLC but not MPC-HC.

This is the only file in recent memory I've had this problem with. Any thoughts for me?

MPC-HC is using the default LAV splitter and so on.

Marc

[mindbomb]

i think i heard something about it being broken in the stable and fixed in the nightly.
other things to check:
make sure you are flagging the subtitles as forced
make sure auto load subtitles is on in mpc hc (options>playback), unless you have an alternate subtitle renderer installed.

[Frankenscript]

I'm using the nightly build from 10/31; still no subs just for Kill Bill. I tested three other Blu-ray ripped to MKV movies; all of them show the subs just fine.

No special renderer... just using LAV and stuff built into MPC-HC. Auto load is on in MPC-HC; the subs are right there in the MKV file (not external) so I know they are available. And VLC plays them fine so they aren't corrupt or anything.

They aren't set as default or forced when I look in MKVMerge... but I should still be able to select them in MPC-HC manually.

I'm remuxing now, setting them as default & forced. In the morning I'll check again to see if it worked.

Meanwhile, I'd appreciate any other thoughts!

Marc

[Frankenscript]

Oh... I think I've got it.

I went into Play... Filters... LAV Splitter Source... Properties and poked around in there. It looks like "Deliver Only Forced Subtitles" was checked.

I unchecked it and applied, then played the original MKV as ripped by MakeMKV. NOW I'm getting the subs.

Apparently they were never marked as forced, and as such they weren't being delivered by the LAV splitter. It's a bit odd, in that there was a "Forced Subs" option to select during playback, apparently empty. Something's strange going on.

But, unchecking the deliver only forced option lets them through, and they can be selected during playback.

:thanks: Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Will report back tomorrow after remuxing re: whether that clears it up too, without unchecking the box.

Marc

[sneaker_ger]

Apparently they were never marked as forced, and as such they weren't being delivered by the LAV splitter. It's a bit odd, in that there was a "Forced Subs" option to select during playback, apparently empty. Something's strange going on.

LAV does not know beforehand if there are actually any forced subs in the file because all lines are interleaved into the container at their respective timecodes and it would have to parse it completely. So it will create that virtual forced track even if there aren't any lines marked as forced.

[Frankenscript]

So, remuxing marking the subs as forced / default made them play properly in MPC-HC without intervention, though they still don't come up if the "deliver only forced subtitles" checkbox is checked.

Is there a good description somewhere of the various levels at which subs can be processed / enabled / disabled? I know it's probably not possible to come up with a configuration that always works for every movie, due to differences in mastering, but I'm trying to decide on the setting that has the fewest "false positives" without completely turning off subs. I'd rather intervene to turn off / on subs as little as possible, and to do that I think I need a better understanding of how they get from a stream in the MKV to being on my screen... and all the switches and stuff in between.

Marc

[sneaker_ger]

So, remuxing marking the subs as forced / default made them play properly in MPC-HC without intervention, though they still don't come up if the "deliver only forced subtitles" checkbox is checked.
The "deliver only forced subtitles" feature of LAV only refers to the PGS feature of marking certain lines as forced. It does not have anything to do with the "forced track" flag of the Matroska container. It is possible to have forced PGS lines in a non-forced track and vice versa.

[LordX2]

Hey guys - I am having a similar issue - and I hope its a simple one!

I am using: MPC-HC, madvr, and LAV Filters.

I see embedded subtitles on some MKVs, but not all. In fact I see them on maybe 10-20% and DONT see them on the rest.

When I right click in MPC-HC it shows the subtitles are available and that they are selected. But I see nothing.

I checked under LAV splitter settings - and Deliver only Forced subtitles is NOT checked - so it should use all subtitles.

I am stumped.

[sneaker_ger]

For MPC-HC try:
1. Updating to the newest version (http://nightly.mpc-hc.org/).
2. Checking "Position subtitles relative to the video frame" unter Options->Subtitles->Default Style

If it does not work:
3. Try XySubFilter (http://code.google.com/p/xy-vsfilter/wiki/Downloads?tm=2) (the one at the bottom)

Also, open a ticket with a sample in the MPC-HC bug tracker (https://trac.mpc-hc.org/wiki/How_to_Report_Issues).

[Frankenscript]

LordX2:
In MPC-HC/LAV (though I don't use MADVR yet), I most often get subs showing when I DON'T want them... as in by default it seems to play any sub stream it finds. More on that in a minute.

But, if you are missing subs that should be there, try setting it to "Default" in the properties window. That should bring up just about everything, based on my experience. However, as I noted for kill bill, if the track isn't labeled either "default" or "forced" you may benefit from a quick remux with MKVToolnix MKVMerge marking the track with those attributes. I've found non-forced non-default marked tracks may be impossible to show otherwise using LAV, in my experience (though, other players may have no problem with them).

sneaker_ger: do you have any suggestions for what the optimal settings in the LAV splitter and subs filter windows would be? As noted above, most things I rip have a subs track that is the full english text of english language content. I still haven't found the optimal choice such that "usually, undesired full english text won't come up, and usually, forced subs (whether part of a "forced track" or forced parts of a complete track) show at the right places as needed." If I could get to an 80% spot where just once in a while I have to turn on or off subs, but it usually works kind of space, I'd be happy. Right now I'm sort of all or nothing. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Marc

[mindbomb]

that is a little known feature of lav splitter, you can tell it to display certain subs based on the audio language. set subtitle selection mode to advanced and enter eng:eng|f;eng:off;*:eng in the subtitles box. this enables only forced subs when english audio is detected and enables english subs when foreign audio is detected.

[Frankenscript]

that is a little known feature of lav splitter, you can tell it to display certain subs based on the audio language. set subtitle selection mode to advanced and enter eng:eng|f;eng:off;*:eng in the subtitles box. this enables only forced subs when english audio is detected and enables english subs when foreign audio is detected.

Cool. Will set this up once I get home from a trip in a few days. Thanks for posting this. As you say I will enable advanced mode with this... anything special about the other settings underneath in that properties dialog?

Can't wait to try it out. I've got some assorted content with different subtitle scenarios (english with forced, english with non-forced that I don't want to show, Japanese with english non-forced subs I do want to see...)

Thanks again! Will report back mid-week when I have a chance to try it all out.

Marc

[mindbomb]

this actually reminded me of something else though, the old default vs forced subtitle question for matroska. Technically, I think you are supposed to use the default tag in general, and the forced tag is sorta an extreme option that is basically akin to hardsubbing and should almost never be used. And if that is the case, then lav splitter should pick up the right subs out of the box, since it should already show the default subs.

[Chetwood]

However, as I noted for kill bill, if the track isn't labeled either "default" or "forced" you may benefit from a quick remux with MKVToolnix MKVMerge marking the track with those attributes.
No need to remux, simply set the flags in MKVmerge's header editor.

Any thoughts?
Unlike BDs and DVDs, MKVs do not allow for single items to be flagged but only an entire stream. So if you only want to see forced subs, you need to extract them to a separate stream.

[nevcairiel]

Unlike BDs and DVDs, MKVs do not allow for single items to be flagged but only an entire stream. So if you only want to see forced subs, you need to extract them to a separate stream.

Thats not true, the flagging is part of the subtitle stream, so if you copy it 1:1 from a BD, it'll still have the individual flags on every subtitle frame.

[Chetwood]

Which will be completely ignored by the player who reads the container flags.

[nevcairiel]

Which will be completely ignored by the player who reads the container flags.

Maybe your player does that, mine is fully capable of playing a untouched BD PGS stream with individual forced subtitle frames, in MKV. :)
Mostly because the player just doesn't care about the container. If you ask it to only play forced frames out of such a stream, it'll do just that, no matter if a BD m2ts file or a MKV.

[Chetwood]

Any particular reason you're not saying what player you are using?

[nevcairiel]

Any player that can use LAV Splitter really, so take your pick between the DirectShow players on Windows. MPC-HC/BE, ZoomPlayer, JRiver MediaCenter, ....

[Chetwood]

So if I rip Avatar with the English substream to MKV and play it back in MPC-HC, it will only show those Navi items that are flagged as forced in the PGS?

[nevcairiel]

If you copy the stream 1:1, then yes, it can do that. LAV Splitter lets you select the full stream or only the forced frames.

[Frankenscript]

that is a little known feature of lav splitter, you can tell it to display certain subs based on the audio language. set subtitle selection mode to advanced and enter eng:eng|f;eng:off;*:eng in the subtitles box. this enables only forced subs when english audio is detected and enables english subs when foreign audio is detected.

Hi Mindbomb,

I made it back home and configured in the advanced mode you described. I'm still getting all subs (complete English text) on a lot of English language content. For example, I ripped Pacific Rim (Bluray) with MakeMKV using all default settings. It got one subtitle track in the output. I'm not sure if it contains any forced frames I would want or not, but it definitely does contain the full English text, because they show by default unless I turn them off.

This is how I'm set up:
http://www.rocketryforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=153728&d=1384343828

Do I have any wrong settings, or are there other places I should configure MPC-HC, so that I don't by default get lots of extra subs? It seems I've got something set too permissively, and I need to lock something down.

Thanks!

Marc

[Frankenscript]

Oh... while I'm at it... what software tools do people use to see what's in the subtitle streams, as in telling if they really contain forced or not? I use MediaInfoGUI which tells me whether or not there is a text stream. MKVToolnix MKVMerge can tell me if default / forced flags are set. IS there any tool that tells the size / how many subtitles are actually in the stream?

Thanks

[mindbomb]

i think i actually gave you bad advice.
It's better that you leave lav splitter at it's defaults, and use mkvmerge to make subs you need be default.

mediainfo can tell you whether it is default/forced as well.

[Frankenscript]

Hi mindbomb,

I disagree that you gave bad advice.

While remuxing titles with just the tested correct forced sub tracks (or, a sub track with appropriately flagged forced frames, or whatever) is the BEST solution, it's not practical for me.

While I don't keep stuff around on my server for long, I nonetheless have about 15 movies waiting for viewing, and something like 50 episodes of various TV series. All ripped using MakeMKV with default settings. I delete stuff from the server when I'm done with it for the moment. (no interest in hosting a server farm).

So, recognizing there's no perfect solution for working with existing content, and given the boundary condition that I'm far too lazy to do a wholesale review and remux-as-needed of my existing content, I'm looking for the "80% solution" in that mostly subs work as intended, and once in a while I'll have to turn on subs manually, and once in a while I'll have to turn off subs manually.

I think this is by and large what you gave me.

What I need to do at this point is look at some representative content with appropriate tools, learn which things use which types of track flags, and how these interact with for example MPC-HC (or, more generally, LAV splitter and video) as my primary player. This would help me anticipate when I would need to turn on / off subs manually, and would also help me do a more accurate job of ripping things without extraneous sub tracks. I've got maybe 75% of the information I need already, I just need to fill in some gaps in a practical sense.

Is there a good utility that displays the size of a sub track? It would be pretty easy to tell forced (only) tracks from full text tracks on this basis. Tracks that are full with forced frames would be a challenge but I think they are relatively rare. (correct me if I'm wrong).

I found where in MediaInfoGui I can see default/forced, but pretty much everything I have tested shows "no" for those. Other than a Kill Bill one where I manually remixed it supposedly with yes/yes though MediaInfo only shows yes for forced.

Anyway, I always appreciate your input. I'm focused mostly on "no mux, no fuss" solutions, and configuring the advanced rules is probably the best way to get me to as close to perfection as I'm likely to see.

Marc

PS: is there a "flag editor" that would let me make quick edits to forced/default flags, without the need to remux the whole thing?

[mindbomb]

yea, i think you can use mkvmerge's header editor to change subs to default:yes or default:no.
don't mess with forced, just use the default field.

That with lav splitter's default mode is probably the best solution.

[Chetwood]

If you copy the stream 1:1, then yes, it can do that. LAV Splitter lets you select the full stream or only the forced frames.
IMO it's in violation of the specs then cause the container flags should superseed the stream's flag. Gonna check it when I'm getting back my Avatar BD.

Oh... while I'm at it... what software tools do people use to see what's in the subtitle streams, as in telling if they really contain forced or not?
BSUP2SUB.

yea, i think you can use mkvmerge's header editor to change subs to default:yes or default:no.
don't mess with forced, just use the default field.
If it's forced, why not use the proper flag? VLC finally acknowledges it even without the default flag being set and who knows what other non-LAV players will be used eventually?

[nevcairiel]

IMO it's in violation of the specs then cause the container flags should superseed the stream's flag. Gonna check it when I'm getting back my Avatar BD.

As if there are specs :rolleyes:

[Frankenscript]

This weekend I'll get some test samples together and see if I can stitch together a better understanding of how the MPC-HC controls and the LAV Splitter options work together. The odd thing is sometimes when in MPC-HC I select an option (turning on or off "enable" for subtitles) sometimes it seems to stick to the next file, and sometimes it doesn't seem to stick. I'm sure it's a user-ignorance thing, but I haven't got it dialed in quite right in my brain.