Jerky Picture

[TonyT]

:confused:

I have an Asus p4 1.5 system with Plextor drives and a scsi 160 subsystem. Works great normally. I used DVD2SVCD 1.6 to rip a movie and convert it to svcd which seemed to work fine after like 14 hours of processing. The only problem is that on my Apex 1500 the playback is jerky. Not every second or frame, but every now and then it jerks just a little. Almost like it is trying to keep up. I used default settings. I used smart ripper for the initial ripping. The title is Tatiana.

[gerti67]

Hi TonyT,

welcome to the forum. How fast did you burn your SVCDs? (Read the Newbie FAQ and the Official dvd2svcd Q&A if not already done on that) ;)

If i remember correctly the Apex plays SVCDs just fine so it must be the media used, the burn speed or a too high bitrate setting within dvd2svcd.

So report back on that for further help.

Greetings,
gerti67

[TonyT]

I tried first at 12x, then 4x. I tried both the cheaper yellow media then the true green from the olden days (I save a small stash for special occasions).

Plays fine on the computer with PowerDVD 4.

I am suspecting the bitrate as well.

I have changed max to 2200 and min to 250 with maximum average at 2200.

Please understand that I barely know what that means and I am flying somewhat blind.

That said, I am extremely familiar with VCD formats, conversion of avi files to mpeg 1, burners and computers. But SVCDs are a lot more complex than I thought. MPEG2 I am new to.

[Mozart]

just curiosity: what software used to burn?

[gerti67]

Hi again,

are you using the latest build of dvd2svcd (1.0.6 Build 4)? With this version some reported that the new default bitrate settings caused a little stuttering so they lowered them a little bit.

I would not go too low with the Max (try 2450), leave Min at 300 and use 2250 for Max avg - just a guess (always worked for me). ;)

You will loose some quality if going to low with the bitrates. If playback is jerky in low motion scenes then perhaps a higher Min setting can help as there are some players that don't like too low bitrates. If playback is jerky in high action scenes (when high bitrate is used) then lowering the Max can help - so best try out with a CD-RW if your player plays them. And i would recommend to only burn at max 4x speed first as going higher with it can also end up in jerky playback (see Q46 in Official Q&A). ;)

Greetings,
gerti67

[TonyT]

I am using CDRWIN 3.8e . I have never had problems playing svcds from other parties, such as Buffy and Angel. Only the ones I make
:(

I am using 1.06 build 4. I actually do look forward to making a donation (albeit a modest one) because the software seems great. Just want to have at elast one SVCD produced without the stuttering of the video.

I lowered the bitrate to 2400 for max, left min at 300, and set
max avg at 2230. It is running now.

How were the default bitrate settings different in the previous versions?

Gerti67, thanks a lot for your suggestions and comments.

[markrb]

The defaults were just a little lower. MAX was at 2498 I believe.
They have changed a couple of times over the builds.

Not a huge deal if you understand enough to lower them.

Mark

[machura]

Try download Bitrate viewer and see to MPG, what are real bitrates MAX and average. ( http://tecoltd.com ).

I have problem with picture too - but my picture time to time stops for time of some frames. F.eg. it seems, as one frames is displayed 4-6x ( example, how my movie is displayed: frames: 1 2 3 4 5 5 5 5 5 10 11 12 ... Bud sound is still perfectly in this moment, very often it is in slow scenes, where almost is not changes.

I tried all possible and unpossible.

When I'm using onepass VBR, it is better diagram of bitrate in Bitrate Viewer, than diagram with 4pass VBR. On 4 pases is bitrate very often changed, than in onepass VBR.

[TonyT]

Downloaded bitrate viewer, ran on it on my latest attempt.

By the way, using max 2200, min 300, max avg 2000 made the movie a lot less junmpy. Actually, if there was no solid white colors in the frame it looked normal. Scenes where people were wearing white clothing were noticeably jerky. Even when you had two people side by side, one in white, one in dark colors, only the one in white was jerky when moving! Not as bad as before, but noticeable.

Bitrate viewer gave me the following numbers:

current : 1766, peak : 2180, average 1580.

Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 2200000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 9
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Frame
Quantscale: Linear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive

help!

[TonyT]

I ran the viewer on a SCVD that looks and run perfect. The bitrate is actually higher(!) but there are diffeences in frames, dct precision etc:

SVCD: Shrek cd 1

Bitrate peak : 2999
current: 2526
Average: 2246

Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 25.00
Nom. bitrate: 2520000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 56
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 8
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Frame
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressiv

Again, this one runs perfect!!! (not made by me, of course)

[gerti67]

Hi TonyT,

just another guess, i wonder if you have one of those "field order" problems with your DVD. See the following thread for some info on it:

http://rilanparty.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14090

As you already downloaded Bitrate Viewer try the following - start Bitrate Viewer and load one of the *.vob files of the DVD you try to convert into it (but not the first one) have a look at the status window and see what is written after "Field topfirst:" - is it "Yes" or "No"? If it's "No" then you have to unselect "Upper field first" in dvd2svcd's "Encoder" tab.

See if this works (if CCE topfield bug is not with your system) - perhaps only doing some chapters to save time. ;)

Just a guess,
gerti67

[TonyT]

These are the readings form the vob file:

Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 8500000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 9
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Field
Quantscale: Linear
Scan type: Alternate
Frame type: Interlaced
Notes:


BY the way, anotehr SVCD that is playing perfect is the LOTR (a friend let me watch it). Actually, all SVCDs I play except the ones I make play 100% perfect.

Here are the readings:

Bitrate current: 2657
Peak: 3118
Average: 2644

Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 2450000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: No
DCT type: Frame
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: Alternate
Frame type: Progressive
Notes:

[gerti67]

Hi TonyT,

from the info you gave, the main difference with the SVCDs that you say run perfectly on your standalone and the one that is jerky is that the others are using a "Nonlinear quantizer scale" and the higher bitrates for sure. (I always use Nonlinear quantizer scale myself without any problems as CCE documentation says it is better for MPEG2.)

So you could try to unselect the "Linear quantizer scale" checkbox in "Encoder" tab and try if this helps with your player (who knows) and as it seems you are doing a 4:3 DVD (which needs higher bitrates than 16:9 with 2.35:1 for example) just increase the Max and the Max avg. bitrate as the ones from your friend played just fine on your standalone with those high bitrates.

Greetings,
gerti67

[TonyT]

Is there a way to enocde just one vob file or do I have to wait 12 hours again? I finally calcualted that it takes my system 12 hours for the two hur dvd. The program only seems to accept the ifo file which loads all.

[gerti67]

Hi again,

just use dvd2svcd's internal routines in "DVD Rip" tab then load the correct *.ifo file in "Conversion" tab. Now the length of the movie will show in "Movie length" pulldown box. And now comes - click on it and you will see a little window appearing titled "Select chapters". ;) Now only choose some chapters and hit the "Go" button.

Greetings,
gerti67

[TonyT]

Was able to encode just one scene, which is cool. I unchecked Linear Quantizer Scale. Whenever there is action in the movie movement is still jerky. Very annoying.

[machura]

1) When is original DVD Quantscale: nonlinear , is better set in DVD2SVCD Linear or no ?

2) When is DVD Scantype: Alternate, is better uncheck ZigZag in DVD2SVCD ?

[gerti67]

Hi TonyT,

have you already tried to burn on a different brand of CD-R media for example on one of those which played fine on your standalone (the one's from your friends)? - Some standalones don't like some brands and that results in jerky movement in high action scene when the bitrate is high.

And in addition try to use a different burning program (e.g. Nero 5.5.7.2, vcdeasy, ...).

Greetings,
gerti67

[TonyT]

Ya, I also used true green media from the olden days, Phthalocyanine dye on a gold reflective layer for a true green color. As a technician I favored them because even 2x cd roms could read the cds I would burn with drivers, etc. The same drives were unable to read gold or blue cds due to laser differences. The true green cds worked on all. In any case, I think I found the problem.

I saw a thread somewhere here that mentioned that in some dvds you have to uncheck the "upper field first" box. Doing so resulted in my sample chapter playing perfect. I am running the full movie now and will report back.

Perhaps we can start a database of DVDs with the best settings to use to back it up?

It would save us all a lot of time.

[gerti67]

Hi TonyT,

In any case, I think I found the problem.

glad to hear that. But i already mentioned the "field order" issue above. ;) I'm just curious, didn't you really use the first vob file of your vobs with Bitrate Viewer? Because it should have shown "No" then in "Field topfirst:" - you can't use the first vob file to check it with Bitrate Viewer because the intros of the movie companies usually are of a different type than the movie itself so it could show "Yes" and the main movie is coded with bottom-field-first order instead (you could try the rest of the vobs too). I'm just asking as i also use Bitrate Viewer to verify such things and it will be getting some kind of useless if it shows just wrong informations.

Greetings,
gerti67

[TonyT]

I was careful to use the second. I cannot explain the findings on the Upper Field First setting, but it was set to yes. I just treid without it out of desperation. I leave to higher minds than mind to figure that out. However, after my second cd is done burning i will check a couple more vob files. Let go now and test the first full cd.

[mrbass]

Are you encoding NTSC or PAL? That Shrek which you said worked had 25fps PAL. If doing PAL are you deinterlacing? Another thing is with some concert dvds they were jerky so I had to use IVTC to get rid of the jerkiness.

[TonyT]

NTSC 100%. But the $80.00 apex I bought can play PAL and NTSC. Makes my last $220.00 JVC look like junk. Even plays MP3's and comes with a on screen file browser. I tested EVERY SINGLE dvd player at Circuit City and money was not the point. It was simply the best on that day for playing SVCD's.

By the way, the encoding went fine with the latest settings. I will report back if I find any thing worth noting when I backup other titles.

De-interlacing? Not on purpose. I changed no settings tht dealt with that. What is that program you used for the convert videos (what do the letters stand for)?

[Zoltan]

@TonyT
I was reading this thread with great interest. Any news since then? Did the iVTC solved the jerkiness?

I have an NTSC DVD that has the same problems. I do not want you to fall into despair but I tried iVTC and although it was much better but still not perfect.

@All

Without iVTC the output clearly had a frame rate problem: there was a minor jump at every single second of the video. With iVTC = on it happens in cca 5 secs, but still no perfect output.

What else can the reason then be?

1., Bitrate & buring speed
Mine is a 16:9 DVD. OK, I am encoding with 224 audio, but since it's a Philips, I keep the total bitrate below 2600 (video bitrate max is 2400). No problem, since it's a low movement film (concert). Other NTSC to PAL conversions, even 4:3 movies play well on my set.

I burnt the images with the Nero at 2x. All my other CDs are OK, this film is always jerky. I think we can exclude this.

2., Force film
Either "Automatic mode" or "Force filem" = on did not help. They gave exactly the same results.

3., De-interlace
I think de-interlace is not an issue here, since it it is needed only, when the output is horizontally striped during horizontal movements and in this case there is no sign of it. The picture is perfectly smooth for all frames.

4., Field order
Wrong field order produces very frequent jumps. Since it simply plays the movie in field order 2,1,4,3,6,5,8,7,... instead of 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,... , there are 12 jumps per second - very annoying to watch, but again, this case is not about Field order.

Slightly off topic on proper field order:
By the way, I found an interesting field order related stuff in the latest, 1.0.7 b1 release. The field order checked with tmpgenc de-interlace trick and bitrate viewer gave top field first (A). I set this on the TMPGENC settings and the output was OK. The same settings with CCE resulted in frequent jumps (see above on wrong field order). By clearing top field first (means bottom, B), CCE gave perfect output on TV.

Summary:
All in all, I think this DVD should be encoded with iVTC and somehow the filter either not working peoperly for some streams or CCE has some flags I do not know of.

Gerti wrote about the "Linear quantizer scale" switch. I will try it out, but in the meantime could anyone pls describe what that is all about and what kind of jerkiness can that solve? (as you can see above there are many kinds of jerkiness)

And finally, any input on all the stuff above, escpecially on iVTC experiences are more than welcome.

Thanks in advance,
Z

[mrbass]

@Zoltan I think your right about it being the field order which causes the jerkiness, jumpiness, etc.

I just did 5 or so concert and sport dvds and I did IVTC on a few and smartdeinterlace on a few others. Sometimes even though you'll see the horizontal lines with windvd when viewed on a TV they won't show..but not always so I don't wish to take the chance anymore. (Can't burn and go home to test it..takes too long). Next time I encounter the jerkiness I'll try your CCE some of those CCE options like Upper Field first unchecked and see if that doesn't do the trick.

[Zoltan]

@mrbass: Actually, I am going to do these tests tomorrow. I have similar problems: vob is at the office, TV set is at home so 1 round takes 1 day :(

It is annoying me that those jumps are not periodical but happen every once in 5 or 10 seconds. Or they are always there but are visible during high motion scenes only?

Anyway, the jumps look like 1-2 frames were left out while audio+video are still in sync.

Regards,
Z

[TonyT]

Taking off the checkmark at "upper field first" solved my problem. It matters not if the cd uses it or not, I simply cannot check the option on. Works great on my Apex plus a friends Samsung.

One remainig issue is with peoples skin tone: They are too yellow-like. The quality is awesome but on all my rips skin color is off by some. A way to adjust the hue is needed. When encoding plain VCD's for my challenged friends (from the same dvds I made the SVCD's from) I am able to preview the movie and adjust brightness, hue, saturation, etc. to perfection. The end result is that the VCD's rival the SVCD's because the color is properly adjusted on the VCD's. Is this possible with DVD2SVCD?

[mrbass]

what filter are you using bicubic? That's what I use. I'm going to uncheck the Upper field and confirm if it solves the problem for me. I'm betting it will too. Thanks for your info.

[Zoltan]

For production I use bicubic only, but for tests I usually use simple linear.

Z

[Dropbear]

Originally posted by TonyT

I saw a thread somewhere here that mentioned that in some dvds you have to uncheck the "upper field first" box. Doing so resulted in my sample chapter playing perfect. I am running the full movie now and will report back.

Perhaps we can start a database of DVDs with the best settings to use to back it up?

It would save us all a lot of time.

I have a feeling that this MAY be the issue in trying to get the ABYSS PAL R4 movie converted.I have issues with the video being "jerky" making it unwatchable.

I will try it and report back...

[Labersack]

I have done Abyss Region2. It was interlaced, so I had to use the deinterlace option. Did you also try to use some deinterlacing?

[Dropbear]

hmm no I didn't, but I can't work out how to tell if something is interlaced or not

[Labersack]

If you got this jerky SVCD, it is! ;-)

But there is a 'patch' or something like that for DVD2AVI, so you can watch the VOBs direkt from DVD. So you can check it.
Try a search on this board, it is somewhere, I just don't know exactly where.

Edit: I made a search and here (http://rilanparty.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17260&highlight=dvd2avi+watch+vob+dvd) it is.

[TonyT]

No ideas from anyone on why the skin color is off on the SVCD's? Am I the only having this issue?

[Dropbear]

Originally posted by Labersack
If you got this jerky SVCD, it is! ;-)

But there is a 'patch' or something like that for DVD2AVI, so you can watch the VOBs direkt from DVD. So you can check it.
Try a search on this board, it is somewhere, I just don't know exactly where.

Edit: I made a search and here (http://rilanparty.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17260&highlight=dvd2avi+watch+vob+dvd) it is.

hehheh thanks :)) I watched the encoded videos on my 'puter and they looked fine .. they are only 'jerky' on my standalone (and my mates standalone) DVD player..

would interlacing make them jerky on the pc as well?

[sandchar99]

Ok, I have had the same problem with bonus music video tracks that are not part of the main movie. NTSC, region 1. These bonus tracks play fine on the DVD-ROM with WinDVD and on the standalone.

When converted with DVD2SVCD, I see horizontal lines when the camera pans horizontally when the output MPEG is viewed with WinDVD and jerkiness when the SVCD is played on the standalone.

This has only happened with these bonus Music Video tracks, not the main movie. I have tried removing "Upper field first" and also "smart deinterlace" separately. DVD2SVCD (DVD2AVI) does not detect interlaced source and Force Film is activated.

Any ideas?