Hardware considerations for BD Rebuilder

[blusky]

I'm using Windows 7 (64 bit) for all my testing. I haven't tried Windows 8, but I have been told it works fine.

Thanks Jdobbs for the info. So then either will work fine. I'm not sure if I want to stick with what I know which is windows 7 or try the new windows 8. Still have a few more days to decide.
thanks again.
Buy the way , finally decided on what computer I am going to build. This is what I came up with:

1) Intel i7 3930K processor


2) Video card PNY VCGGTX6804XPB GeForce GTX 680 4GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support


3) Motherboard Asus Rampage 1V Extreme LGA 2011 Intel X79 Sata 6GB/S USB 3.0 extended ATX motherboard

4) Memory G.SKILL RipjawsZ F3-19200CL10Q2-64GBZHD 64GB 8X8GB DDR3-2400 CL10 240PIN Memory Kit $350.00


5)Hard drives 2 SAMSUNG 840 Pro Series MZ-7PD256BW 2.5" 256GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) in raid 0 configuration

6) Storage Hard drive Western Digital Black WD4001FAEX 4TB 7200RPM SATA3/SATA 6.0 GB/s 64MB Desktop Hard Drive (3.5 inch)


7) Power supply Corsair CMPSU-1200AX 1200-Watt Power Supply - ATX, 140mm Fan, SLI Ready, CrossFireX Model#: CMPSU-1200AX


8) Blu-Ray burner LG Black 14X BD-R 2X BD-RE 16X DVD+R 5X DVD-RAM 12X BD-ROM 4MB Cache SATA BDXL Blu-ray Burner, Bare Drive, 3D Play Back (WH14NS40)


9) Corsair Hydro Series H100 Extreme Performance Liquid CPU Cooler Liquid cooling system


10) Cooler Master HAF X RC-942-KKN1 Black Steel & Plastic ATX Full Tower Gaming Case (Black)


I will use it for BD-Rebuilder. My son will use it for gaming. I realize its a bit of an overkill but should last me a long time and very upgradable.

[RobertM]

Buy the way , finally decided on what computer I am going to build. This is what I came up with:

<snip>

I will use it for BD-Rebuilder. My son will use it for gaming. I realize its a bit of an overkill but should last me a long time and very upgradable.

Yep, that's overkill for BD-rebuilding alright, but if you want to queue up several high-quality full backups overnight then this should get it done. Nice machine. Did you manage to find sources for all this and still be under $2K?

Question:... you have only 1 main storage drive. I imagine that the paired SSD drives are going to be for the OS and apps. Are you planning to use that as your BD-RB working drive too? You'll want your source drive (the rips) and the working drive to be separate, as there is a speed gain there. I would normally reserve the SSDs for just OS/apps, and keep data files off of them for the most part (since BD files are so large), so 2 BIG HDDs are a necessity in my books.

Other than that, probably the only thing I would change is the case, but this is jut mostly personal preference. I'm not into the Klingon look - at all - and that one has a mild Klingon thing going on. Hard core gamers seem to love cases like that however, so I imagine your son would approve. Personally, I really like my Lian Li case - entirely aluminum and very nicely constructed.

Regards,
Bob

[Capsbackup]

Personally, I really like my Lian Li case - entirely aluminum and very nicely constructed.


I agree with this! ;)

[blusky]

Yep, that's overkill for BD-rebuilding alright, but if you want to queue up several high-quality full backups overnight then this should get it done. Nice machine. Did you manage to find sources for all this and still be under $2K?

Question:... you have only 1 main storage drive. I imagine that the paired SSD drives are going to be for the OS and apps. Are you planning to use that as your BD-RB working drive too? You'll want your source drive (the rips) and the working drive to be separate, as there is a speed gain there. I would normally reserve the SSDs for just OS/apps, and keep data files off of them for the most part (since BD files are so large), so 2 BIG HDDs are a necessity in my books.


Other than that, probably the only thing I would change is the case, but this is jut mostly personal preference. I'm not into the Klingon look - at all - and that one has a mild Klingon thing going on. Hard core gamers seem to love cases like that however, so I imagine your son would approve. Personally, I really like my Lian Li case - entirely aluminum and very nicely constructed.

Regards,
Bob

Thanks for your input RobertM.
Yes as you had stated I will use the 2 SSD drives in the Raid ) configuration for operating system and apps. and use the 4TB hard drive for the Rips. Would you suggest a second Hard drive for the Rips or the one 4 TB hard drive will do??


I was not to big on the case I chose but my son liked it , so I had to compromise. LOL...
As for the price came out to 3000.00. Went over budget but I am confident it will not be obsolete for a while.

As I had said before, I had found this same computer already built on Ebay for 1700.00. Buy the time I was looking at the components and adding things up, about a minute, someone sniped me and bought it before I pulled the trigger. Amazing, missed it by one minute. Don't know how they could have sold it so cheap and make some money. MOst part were purchased on Amazon which had best prices and free 2nd day shipping . could not beat that.

[RobertM]

Would you suggest a second Hard drive for the Rips
Yes. Part of the process requires a lot of reading and writing of LARGE files. For instance, extracting the BD components from the rip folders. If the source (rip) and target (working folder) are on the same drive then a single head has to do both reads and writes, plus is has to spend extra time stepping between reading and writing positions on the platter. With 2 separate HDDs each head acts independently and stays in position on their respective platters. This will yield a noticeable improvement at times.

I was not to big on the case I chose but my son liked it , so I had to compromise.
If I were compromising with my son it might go something like this: I spec it and pay for it, and you get to use it for free ;) You've got kick-ass components inside, which is great, but the only tactile interaction you have with the system is 100% determined by the case. The case is there, sitting right in front of you, even when your go-fast bits are turned off. For me, in my office, the case has to look right and feel right. It's a personal thing, of course.

As for the price came out to 3000.00. Went over budget but I am confident it will not be obsolete for a while.
No worries here. This unit will be quite competent for a long while.

I had found this same computer already built on Ebay for 1700.00
Sounds almost too good to be true. It could be you dodged a bullet.

[gonca]

@blusky
Consider getting a 128 GB SSD drive for OS and apps. Use the two you have for SOURCE and WORKING drives. This would give you max read / write for BD-RB and allow you a large drive for permanent storage. Your system specs are similar, but a bit above, mine. BD50 to BD25 under "default" settings is about 30 to 45 minutes with the cpu averaging 50% load.

[blusky]

Yes. Part of the process requires a lot of reading and writing of LARGE files. For instance, extracting the BD components from the rip folders. If the source (rip) and target (working folder) are on the same drive then a single head has to do both reads and writes, plus is has to spend extra time stepping between reading and writing positions on the platter. With 2 separate HDDs each head acts independently and stays in position on their respective platters. This will yield a noticeable improvement at times.


If I were compromising with my son it might go something like this: I spec it and pay for it, and you get to use it for free ;) You've got kick-ass components inside, which is great, but the only tactile interaction you have with the system is 100% determined by the case. The case is there, sitting right in front of you, even when your go-fast bits are turned off. For me, in my office, the case has to look right and feel right. It's a personal thing, of course.


No worries here. This unit will be quite competent for a long while.


Sounds almost too good to be true. It could be you dodged a bullet.

Thanks RobertM , Capsbackup and Gonza for your help.

RobertM , thanks for the explanation, I now understand why you should rip from one hard drive and working folder on another and the benefits of having another drive.

Gonca,
Great suggestion. Getting one more 128GB SSD drive and put all apps on that drive and using the two 256 GB SSD drives for the source and working drives. I will add another drive, makes sense to me . Thanks for the help. Greatly appreciated.

[gonca]

@blusky
With your rig you will find that with DGDecNV you will not load the cpu much past 50% when you use the normal default setting for quality. If you normally use high quality 2 pass prepare for a speed treat. The default quality setting normally gives me 135 FPS encoding speed while the cpu sits at 50%.

[blusky]

@blusky
With your rig you will find that with DGDecNV you will not load the cpu much past 50% when you use the normal default setting for quality. If you normally use high quality 2 pass prepare for a speed treat. The default quality setting normally gives me 135 FPS encoding speed while the cpu sits at 50%.

Thanks gonca, that is some great performance considering on the machine I am using now, circa 2004, it took me 27 hours for a 2.5 hour movie. This would be an amazing performance.

[gonca]

2.5 hour movie should take 30 to 45 minutes on default for BD25.

[blusky]

2.5 hour movie should take 30 to 45 minutes on default for BD25.

now that is a great improvement.

[blusky]

@blusky
Consider getting a 128 GB SSD drive for OS and apps. Use the two you have for SOURCE and WORKING drives. This would give you max read / write for BD-RB and allow you a large drive for permanent storage. Your system specs are similar, but a bit above, mine. BD50 to BD25 under "default" settings is about 30 to 45 minutes with the cpu averaging 50% load.

I am not versed at building computers so I am throwing myself into the fire on this one. I have a quick question in reference the setup your talking about above. I need to get another 250GB SSD drive above on which I will put the OS and Apps on. then do I make the 2 Samsung 840 Pro SSD drives that I have in Raid 0 configuration??

[gonca]

A 128 GB SSD should be enough for the OS and apps. The other SSD's should be used as seperate drives, one for source, and one as working drive. RAID isn't required for this purpose.

[blusky]

A 128 GB SSD should be enough for the OS and apps. The other SSD's should be used as seperate drives, one for source, and one as working drive. RAID isn't required for this purpose.

ok, now I get it. Thanks.

[steptoe]

I don't have an SSD as yet, but a lot of places recommend (as suggested) use an SSD to load your OS and software only so you can get away without having a small ? SSD and use the spare cash you save to buy more SATA hard drives for your storage

Maybe have one SATA drive for your sons games, and two more for your video use ONLY. Reading from one and writing to another does give a big speed boost. The prices of 2TB Sata hard drives is dropping to silly prices again, almost giving them away

A 2TB for your son should be more than enough for future use, considering most new games are now around the 16GB mark that will still give him plenty of space for storage or his 'other' use, and possibly a 1TB for your work files and a 2TB or even 4TB for storage purposes

As your motherboard supports it, go for SATA III hard drives for you and a SATA II hard drive for your son. He won't notice the difference but will squeeze every bit of speed out of everything for you using SATA III hard drives with 64MB cache

If money really is no object then by all means go for the i7 CPU, but I use an i5 2500k and did look at an i7, running very happily at 4.5ghz using a DarkRock Pro fan cooler and even with the CPU cooler you are saving the best part of £250 (almost $400) which could go on yet more hard drives, I use HCEnc with AviSynth which is a known killer is your system is unstable and running the Intel Burn In Test pushes it as far as it will go and still stays stable. The intel i5 2500k are very easy to overclock, but staying with your watercooling block you 'should' be able to manage 4.8Ghz without overstressing it and would take you about 5 minutes via the BIOS and be faster than the CPU you are buying. Unless you intend to overclock that as well ..... which quickly reading is achievable to 4.8ghz and with 6-cores will be pretty damn fast

I have an Antec 1200 tower which is a beast and other towers would easily fit inside it, but for looks as a 'gaming' rig what you've choosen should be plenty big enough and leave plenty of space for internal cooling. Mine's filled with hard drives and runs very very cool. But in UK it doesn't exactly get that warm too often so don't need to worry about ambient temperatures


I use Win7 64-bit Ultimate (or Win8 if you prefer that 'touchpad' look) and have used 32-bit Win7 in the past. 64-bit is quite a bit faster/smoother and BD-RB works perfectly with both


As a sidenote, they are still testing OpenCL (GPU) x264 which would give a big speed boost, handbrake OpenCL is available but staesd as only in downsizing as yet and is far too unstable for public use. So its being worked on but don't expect full GPU support for some time yet

http://li5.ziti.uni-heidelberg.de/x264gpu/
https://github.com/DarkShikari/x264-devel/commit/35d002951c26cb7e60cf27f4f474cfd5aa03cf05

[gonca]

@blusky
Your parts list is impressive but pricey. If you haven't ordered them yet there are a few things you should consider.
Your use---- BD50 to BD25 with default settings---i7 3930 is way overkill
What are your normal backup goals? etc.

Steptoe made good points about alternate solutions. If you need me to run some test encodes to give you comparison results let me know. If you want me to post my specs for comparison purposes just say so.

[blusky]

Thanks to all for the great info. You guys are a wealth of information.
Yes , i have just purchased the hardware that is listed in this post.
I thought it was a great idea that was suggested to purchase a smaller SSD HD , 128GB for the OS and Apps.

RobertM had suggested to use 4 1tb hard drives paired in two raid 0 configurations to get the best read and write speeds. I presently have 2 Samsung 840 pro series 256GB Sata3 SSD hard drives.I also have a 4TB hard drive for storage.
Should I use them for one of the raid 0 configurations and maybe purchase two smaller SSD drives for the second Raid 0 configuration.
If this is acceptable then I have read it is best to use Hardware raid card. Can anyone suggest a good one??

At this point I have gone this far might as well get the most out of the system even if it cost me more.

Buy the way, looks like I'm shying toward windows 8 for now. This is a tough one because I do like windows 7.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[gonca]

Your Samsung SSDs are each probably better than two HDDs in RAID 0 speedwise. Remember that components can be swapped or added with ease later on.
In other words, go with what you have, and then if you need to alter or add do it. This gives you the chance to see what you have and defer some expenses if need arises. By the way, If you got the i7 3930K it to is easy to overclock.

[jdobbs]

@blusky
With your rig you will find that with DGDecNV you will not load the cpu much past 50% when you use the normal default setting for quality. If you normally use high quality 2 pass prepare for a speed treat. The default quality setting normally gives me 135 FPS encoding speed while the cpu sits at 50%.If you're only using 50% of your processor in pass 2 -- you should set change the MULTIPROCESS setting to a higher value than the default in the Config/INI file. Pass 1 isn't very demanding, so you don't want to base your setting on that.

As for "overkill" -- I don't think there is a processor in existence yet that is "overkill" for HD video encoding. You just have to tweak BD-RB to make sure you use it all. You probably only need about 8GB of memory for BD-RB, though -- unless you are running a lot of instances with the MULTIPROCESS setting. Two hard drives, with the source being different from the working, is a definite time saver.

[gonca]

@jdobbs
When I mentioned the 50% I was referring to the normal default 1 pass setting for 2.5 to 3 hour content, ABR I believe. The two pass setting statement was if you use it be prepared for a speed treat, no mention of cpu usage. The OP never mentioned what his normal usage or settings for BD-RB are. I agree that depending on settings, the cpu can be easily be maxed out.
As a side note-- the Kepler 5 cards seem to hit their limit at 135 FPS, and that was what I was referring to when I mentioned the 50% usage and "normal" default settings, i.e. ABR 1 pass. Sorry for any confusion if I misstated my point.

I normally do BD>MKV crf 18 and the cpu gets maxed out easily.

[RobertM]

RobertM had suggested to use 4 1tb hard drives paired in two raid 0 configurations to get the best read and write speeds. I presently have 2 Samsung 840 pro series 256GB Sata3 SSD hard drives.I also have a 4TB hard drive for storage.
Should I use them for one of the raid 0 configurations and maybe purchase two smaller SSD drives for the second Raid 0 configuration.
If this is acceptable then I have read it is best to use Hardware raid card. Can anyone suggest a good one??


First, there really isn't any right or wrong about most of this. You've bought good components, and you are going to be happy with the performance, no matter what you do.

Pairing HDDs in Raid 0 gives you twice the speed of the original HDDs. It's a cheap way to get speed and capacity. SDDs are faster and smaller than HDDS but quite a bit more expensive per GByte. Pairing your SDDs will give a VERY fast transfer rate. If you are space-constrained, or need the ultimate in speed, SDDs are the way to go. For me, paired HDDs are fast enough. You likely don't need to use a h/w raid controller, as allowing the OS to control this will probably be fine. But you've got a lot of drives, plus at least one optical device, so you might start running out of m/b SATA plugs, in which case you would need a separate board.

The reason why we put OS/Apps on a dedicated SSD drive is that it makes boot up and loading apps quite snappy. The reason we keep large data files off that drive is that SSD drives tend to be small (relative to HDDs), and you would be forever running out of space on your "C:" drive, and having to clean-up the drive quite often. The usual way to do this is a single SSD drive in the 80GB - 128GB size. You probably don't need more than that for the OS and a usual collection of apps (unusually large apps, like games, would go on the data drives). Using a modestly sized SSD for this keeps the purpose of the drive in focus, and reduces the temptation to start storing data on it, thus keeping the clutter down. You would treat this entire drive as a "system" drive -- you wouldn't need to back it up a often as your data, since the OS and apps can be reloaded from scratch if needed, without losing your valuable data files.

The storage drives need to be larger, since your BD files will reside there, and those files are, relatively speaking, huge. Even if you plan to regularly clean up the drives (meaning that you'll manually delete the old rip an rebuild files) these files will tend to pile up a bit, so I probably wouldn't recommend less then 1TB for each.

For the purposes of BD-Rebuilder it is advisable to use 2 separate drives, as we've discussed. If you plan on deleting the rips immediately after rebuild then the source drive doesn't need to be too huge, and 1TB would be a good starting point. But, if you plan to hold onto the rips until you've eventually watched your rebuild then you'll need larger capacity. If you plan to use your PC as a HTPC, and serve your rebuilds from there to your TV, then you will want big capacity in your 'Target' (workfile) drive, and 4TB is not bad. In any case, for BD-Rebuilder you really don't need both target and source drives to be huge - you can always make a new rebuild from a saved rip file, or you can always re-rip your original discs at a later time. Big drives just give you more elbow room.

Whether or not your source and target drives are in Raid configuration is entirely up to you. If you have multiple drives then you can easily Raid them together getting a speed boost. Using the OS (Win7 and Win8) this is really easy. With a h/w raid controller the requirements for the HDDs are more stringent; identical drives are preferred. The upside of Raid0 is speed. The downside is that if either drive fails then you lose all the data, so you effectively double your potential for data loss. Not a terrible problem with rebuilds, since you can always rebuild them again, or rip them again. But if you have set up a HTPC system, with hundreds of rebuilds residing on it, then such a loss would surely be annoying. Something to keep in mind.

Here's 3 options:

1. Stick the h/w that you've already got. One SSD as OS/App drive. The other SSD and the 4TB HDD as Source and Target drives. Doesn't matter which is which - you can switch around your 'source/target' assignments in BD-Rebuilder, and it's easy to bulk copy files from one drive to the other (it's just data, after all) until you are happy.

2. Buy a new 128GB SSD for your OS/Apps. Pair your existing SSDs together for a lightning fast 500Gb drive and use that, with your 4TB HDD, for the 'source' and 'target' drives.

3. Buy a new 128GB SSD for your OS/Apps. Pair your existing SSDs together for a lightning fast 500Gb drive. Partition your 4TB HDD into 2 x 2TB drives claiming one of these partitions for yourself (as 'source' or 'target') and give the other partition to your son for his games and apps (telling him not to mess with ANY of the other drives).

Now, if I were you... I'd go with #3. ;)

[QBhd]

Just to give my config as a reference:

SYSTEM Drive: 2xMushkin Chronos 60 GB RAID0 = 109 GB
WORKING Drive: 4xWestern Digital Caviar Black 500 GB RAID0 (Short Stroke) = 300 GB
STORAGE 1 Drive: 4xWestern Digital Caviar Black 500 GB RAID0 (Long Stroke) = 1.52 TB
STORAGE 2 Drive: Western Digital Caviar Green 2 TB = 1.81 TB
MOVIES Drive: Hitachi Deskstar 2TB = 1.81 TB

I do all my work for encoding on the working drive. Files are downloaded there as well. As workload goes almost all the large file writes and reads occur there. It's not the optimal situation since I currently have none of the 10 SATA ports left on my board left to use (8 internal + 2 e-SATA)... it was not a plan to have drives configured this way (things sort of just evolved over time), but I can tell you that as an encoding machine she rocks. The 300 GB Short Stroked 4 disk RAID0 is very fast for large file reads/writes and I can do all work in a single folder. I also save a lot of wear and tear on the SSDs but doing things this way. Just food for thought and info from a guy who is very happy with his disk layouts

QB

[blusky]

First, there really isn't any right or wrong about most of this. You've bought good components, and you are going to be happy with the performance, no matter what you do.

Pairing HDDs in Raid 0 gives you twice the speed of the original HDDs. It's a cheap way to get speed and capacity. SDDs are faster and smaller than HDDS but quite a bit more expensive per GByte. Pairing your SDDs will give a VERY fast transfer rate. If you are space-constrained, or need the ultimate in speed, SDDs are the way to go. For me, paired HDDs are fast enough. You likely don't need to use a h/w raid controller, as allowing the OS to control this will probably be fine. But you've got a lot of drives, plus at least one optical device, so you might start running out of m/b SATA plugs, in which case you would need a separate board.


The reason why we put OS/Apps on a dedicated SSD drive is that it makes boot up and loading apps quite snappy. The reason we keep large data files off that drive is that SSD drives tend to be small (relative to HDDs), and you would be forever running out of space on your "C:" drive, and having to clean-up the drive quite often. The usual way to do this is a single SSD drive in the 80GB - 128GB size. You probably don't need more than that for the OS and a usual collection of apps (unusually large apps, like games, would go on the data drives). Using a modestly sized SSD for this keeps the purpose of the drive in focus, and reduces the temptation to start storing data on it, thus keeping the clutter down. You would treat this entire drive as a "system" drive -- you wouldn't need to back it up a often as your data, since the OS and apps can be reloaded from scratch if needed, without losing your valuable data files.

The storage drives need to be larger, since your BD files will reside there, and those files are, relatively speaking, huge. Even if you plan to regularly clean up the drives (meaning that you'll manually delete the old rip an rebuild files) these files will tend to pile up a bit, so I probably wouldn't recommend less then 1TB for each.

For the purposes of BD-Rebuilder it is advisable to use 2 separate drives, as we've discussed. If you plan on deleting the rips immediately after rebuild then the source drive doesn't need to be too huge, and 1TB would be a good starting point. But, if you plan to hold onto the rips until you've eventually watched your rebuild then you'll need larger capacity. If you plan to use your PC as a HTPC, and serve your rebuilds from there to your TV, then you will want big capacity in your 'Target' (workfile) drive, and 4TB is not bad. In any case, for BD-Rebuilder you really don't need both target and source drives to be huge - you can always make a new rebuild from a saved rip file, or you can always re-rip your original discs at a later time. Big drives just give you more elbow room.

Whether or not your source and target drives are in Raid configuration is entirely up to you. If you have multiple drives then you can easily Raid them together getting a speed boost. Using the OS (Win7 and Win8) this is really easy. With a h/w raid controller the requirements for the HDDs are more stringent; identical drives are preferred. The upside of Raid0 is speed. The downside is that if either drive fails then you lose all the data, so you effectively double your potential for data loss. Not a terrible problem with rebuilds, since you can always rebuild them again, or rip them again. But if you have set up a HTPC system, with hundreds of rebuilds residing on it, then such a loss would surely be annoying. Something to keep in mind.

Here's 3 options:

1. Stick the h/w that you've already got. One SSD as OS/App drive. The other SSD and the 4TB HDD as Source and Target drives. Doesn't matter which is which - you can switch around your 'source/target' assignments in BD-Rebuilder, and it's easy to bulk copy files from one drive to the other (it's just data, after all) until you are happy.

2. Buy a new 128GB SSD for your OS/Apps. Pair your existing SSDs together for a lightning fast 500Gb drive and use that, with your 4TB HDD, for the 'source' and 'target' drives.

3. Buy a new 128GB SSD for your OS/Apps. Pair your existing SSDs together for a lightning fast 500Gb drive. Partition your 4TB HDD into 2 x 2TB drives claiming one of these partitions for yourself (as 'source' or 'target') and give the other partition to your son for his games and apps (telling him not to mess with ANY of the other drives).

Now, if I were you... I'd go with #3. ;)

Thanks RobertM and QBhd for your help. Greatly appreciated.
RobertM. Thanks for giving me a great overview of the advantages and disadvantages of each. I have done some reading today on the raid0 configuration with 2 SSD drives and have found mixed results. Some say to just use them as regular drives not raid0 as they are fast enough. Others say that there is a great improvement using them as Raid0 drives. Some had said that it will be to much ware and tare on the SSD drives in Raid0 config.

Since I am just starting out I think I will try choice number 3 with a slight modification. I am purchasing a Samsung 840 Pro 128GB SSD drive for the OS and Apps. I will try first use the 2 250GB Samsung SSD drives as separate drives and see how that goes. Then in the future I could always Raid0 them later.
I will partition the 4 TB drive as you have said to give my son some room to play but not allow him to stray too far.

Jdobbs, thanks for your help. Once I get this running well then I will learn how to tweak BD-RB to use the processor more effectively.
QBhd,
appreciate you show me your setup and how you use it.

[QBhd]

Just a quick note on RAID0 and SSD's... What most people who say that one drive is fast enough are not looking at is the critical stat. That is the 4k read and write speeds. AS SSD is a good benchmark to illustrate this, and there is a great improvemnt in 4K with RAID0

QB

[blusky]

Just a quick note on RAID0 and SSD's... What most people who say that one drive is fast enough are not looking at is the critical stat. That is the 4k read and write speeds. AS SSD is a good benchmark to illustrate this, and there is a great improvemnt in 4K with RAID0

QB
Thanks for the explanation QBhd. I had looked at some of those benchmarks but did not know what to look for.

[jdobbs]

Just a note... An SSD is (as the name says) solid state. I don't think I'd listen to anyone who says you have to worry about "wear and tear". They have no moving parts.

[gonca]

Just a note... An SSD is (as the name says) solid state. I don't think I'd listen to anyone who says you have to worry about "wear and tear". They have no moving parts.

@blusky
I have my 2 SSD drives, input - source, for well over a year. Continuous and repeated writes, reads, and deletes. No problems whatsoever. As Jdobbs said...

Side note
I'm converting my DVD collection to MkV as well as BD to MKV. These two SSDs do not get a lot of down time.

As far as following RobertM 3rd option---good decision.

[RobertM]

Just a note... An SSD is (as the name says) solid state. I don't think I'd listen to anyone who says you have to worry about "wear and tear". They have no moving parts.

True, no moving parts... but they do have a published lifespan of something like 10,000 read/write cycles. You might expect (very roughly) an HDD to last around 5 yrs, and an SSD (MLC type) around 10 yrs. I read that "Single Layer Cell" (SLC) SSD drives are much better than that and can be thought of as lasting a lifetime, but they are less common and quite a bit more expensive.

I just don't want people to expect their SSD drive to last forever, or to decide to never backup their data anymore.

[QBhd]

Just a note... An SSD is (as the name says) solid state. I don't think I'd listen to anyone who says you have to worry about "wear and tear". They have no moving parts.

Of course I know an SSD has no moving parts... the "wear & tear" comment was just a euphimism. In a RAID config with no TRIM, constant reads/writes/deletes will slowly degrade performance over time. But nothing a security erase and image restore can't cure. I don't usually worry too much about it, but it doesn't hurt to keep the SSD's just for OS and apps.

QB

[blusky]

Great info, thanks to all. Been getting a lot of conflicting data on this however as Jdobbs had said therr are no moving parts makes sence.
RobertM also has a good point. Everything has a life span or else we would only need one SSD for life.
I found out what TRIM does but is it part of the OS??

[QBhd]

TRIM is an ATA command that allows an OS to tell the drive which blocks of data are no longer in use and can be cleared internally. TRIM needs an OS capable of initiating the command and also needs to be passed through to the drive (AHCI). RAID does not allow this command to passthrough with the exception of Intel 7-series chipset and RST 11.2 drivers and above... and this only works with single disks under RAID... still does not work for RAID0 disks.

TRIM is initiated (for the most part) when files are emptied from the Recycle Bin. (and I guess direct deletes when files do not get sent to the Recycle Bin)

Or at least as far as I understand things :)

QB

[blusky]

TRIM is an ATA command that allows an OS to tell the drive which blocks of data are no longer in use and can be cleared internally. TRIM needs an OS capable of initiating the command and also needs to be passed through to the drive (AHCI). RAID does not allow this command to passthrough with the exception of Intel 7-series chipset and RST 11.2 drivers and above... and this only works with single disks under RAID... still does not work for RAID0 disks.

TRIM is initiated (for the most part) when files are emptied from the Recycle Bin. (and I guess direct deletes when files do not get sent to the Recycle Bin)

Or at least as far as I understand things :)

QB


Thanks QBhd for the info. Interesting enough I had read in some forums that for the Intel 7 series it does work with Raid0 with 2 disks. I will search and see if I can find it again.

On another topic If I may, my memory connection fell through.
I was looking for the this Memory:

G.SKILL RipjawsZ F3-19200CL10Q2-64GBZHD 64GB 8X8GB DDR3-2400 CL10 240PIN Memory Kit

Seems it was built to work with the Motherboard I purchased:
Motherboard Asus Rampage 1V Extreme LGA 2011 Intel X79 Sata 6GB/S USB 3.0 extended ATX motherboard

I have been trying to find a decent price for it but know luck so far.
I did find on Ebay this memory:


G.SKILL Ripjaws Z Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 PC3 12800 F3-12800CL10Q2-64GBZL


There is a difference from 12800CL and 19200CL Is that the Clock speed??

[RobertM]

There is a difference from 12800CL and 19200CL Is that the Clock speed??

Yes, those 2 memory selections differ in speed. One is DDR3-2400 (not really 2400MHz, but it's convenient to think of it that way) and the other is DDR3-1600.

To be honest, I can't imagine that you are going to get much real value out of that much RAM. Even 32GB is huge for any use that you are likely to throw at that machine, whether for BD-RB or gaming. Nor am I sure that you would see any real benefit from the higher speed DDR3-2400. The higher speed memory won't hurt, other than in the pocketbook, but you may not realize ANY real-world performance improvements after spending a ton of cash. I would suggest cutting back to 4x8GB sticks (fast ones if you must) and then you can always add more later if needed.

[jdobbs]

Now that you mention it, isn't there a limit on the amount of usable RAM on a 64 bit system? If I remember correctly it is 4GB for the 32 bit Windows.

[edit] I just looked it up for Win 7. It appears that it's pretty high (192GB) for the professional version -- but Home Premium has a limit of 16GB and Home Basic is limited to 8GB. I didn't see Win8 and there's a limit to how much looking I will do with this iPhone I'm using ;)

[blusky]

Thanks RobertM and Jdobbs for the help. It looks like I will give Windows 8 Pro 64 bit a shot on this computer. Looks Like a cousin of mine is going to be able to get me a good price on the G.SKILL RipjawsZ F3-19200CL10Q2.

Depending on the price I do agree, no need to spend the money there since I will not need 64GB.
I am starting to worry a little bit since there is a lot I do not know how to do or never have done with computers. As an example, I have read that these Samsung drives cannot update the firmware in Raid 0 configuration. So somehow I might have to update them before I raid 0 them. Only problem is I do not have a Sata Hard drive connection in any of my old computers so I don't quite know how I will do that.

I have read all Manuals of the Hardware that I have received so far. I have found a few guides on the best way to build a computer.

The other issue I am looking into, as QBhd has said " TRIM needs an OS capable of initiating the command and also needs to be passed through to the drive (AHCI). RAID does not allow this command to passthrough with the exception of Intel 7-series chipset and RST 11.2 drivers and above... and this only works with single disks under RAID... still does not work for RAID0 disks."
I am trying to verify that.
Just a few things like that.

[RobertM]

I am starting to worry a little bit since there is a lot I do not know how to do or never have done with computers.
You'll know a lot more once you get your machine built ;) Remember that it's unlikely that you'll do anything that isn't reversible. Just take your time, follow a respectable on-line guide and don't force the components. It's not a difficult process, but there are many steps. As long as you don't physically break something then you can always take it all apart and start again. So don't worry, it'll be OK. You should plan on a whole weekend for this project - just to be safe. Someone who's done previous builds would probably put it all together in a couple of hours. My son and I did our build on Christmas day in about 5 hrs, but I had previous experience swapping cases, which gives one good familiarity with the guts of a PC.


As an example, I have read that these Samsung drives cannot update the firmware in Raid 0 configuration. So somehow I might have to update them before I raid 0 them. Only problem is I do not have a Sata Hard drive connection in any of my old computers so I don't quite know how I will do that.
I have an easy solution: don't update the firmware. These are new drives and they should work fine as is.

I have read all Manuals of the Hardware that I have received so far. I have found a few guides on the best way to build a computer.
Good. You're following the correct path.

The other issue I am looking into, as QBhd has said " TRIM needs an OS capable of <snip>
Ideally you would tweak everything for ultimate, optimized performance. But it's more common to just let let the M/B or the OS handle the Raid configuration. Letting Win7/8 do it is the easiest but it involves a little extra overhead. Letting the M/B handle it is pretty easy too. You simply need to enter the configuration dialogue upon boot-up (your manual will tell you which keys to hold upon booting).

But don't worry about the Raid array first. Initially, just get the system running with a minimal configuration; just the OS/Apps SSD. Once you have the OS booting properly off the SSD THEN install the SSD array and your 4TB HDD. These can be added one at a time, so as to keep the incremental changes to a minimum.

[blusky]

You'll know a lot more once you get your machine built ;) Remember that it's unlikely that you'll do anything that isn't reversible. Just take your time, follow a respectable on-line guide and don't force the components. It's not a difficult process, but there are many steps. As long as you don't physically break something then you can always take it all apart and start again. So don't worry, it'll be OK. You should plan on a whole weekend for this project - just to be safe. Someone who's done previous builds would probably put it all together in a couple of hours. My son and I did our build on Christmas day in about 5 hrs, but I had previous experience swapping cases, which gives one good familiarity with the guts of a PC.



I have an easy solution: don't update the firmware. These are new drives and they should work fine as is.


Good. You're following the correct path.


Ideally you would tweak everything for ultimate, optimized performance. But it's more common to just let let the M/B or the OS handle the Raid configuration. Letting Win7/8 do it is the easiest but it involves a little extra overhead. Letting the M/B handle it is pretty easy too. You simply need to enter the configuration dialogue upon boot-up (your manual will tell you which keys to hold upon booting).

But don't worry about the Raid array first. Initially, just get the system running with a minimal configuration; just the OS/Apps SSD. Once you have the OS booting properly off the SSD THEN install the SSD array and your 4TB HDD. These can be added one at a time, so as to keep the incremental changes to a minimum.

Sounds good RobertM. Take each step one at a time making sure that it works correctly then keep adding the drives one by one. Lesson learned.

I did do a search on the Trim and the SSD's in Raid 0 config. and this is what I found:
TRIM will work in RAID 0 on Windows 8 when running a 7 series chipset, just install the newest RST drivers and make sure you Option ROM is 11 or higher.
That solves that issue.

Thanks again RobertM.

[jdobbs]

True, no moving parts... but they do have a published lifespan of something like 10,000 read/write cycles. You might expect (very roughly) an HDD to last around 5 yrs, and an SSD (MLC type) around 10 yrs. I read that "Single Layer Cell" (SLC) SSD drives are much better than that and can be thought of as lasting a lifetime, but they are less common and quite a bit more expensive.

I just don't want people to expect their SSD drive to last forever, or to decide to never backup their data anymore. Hmmm... theres an expected limitation of 10,000 read/write cycles? I never would have guessed that. I wonder what could be the technical reason for that. Interesting.

[gonca]

Michael Yang, flash marketing manager at Samsung

"There are also concerns about wear. That is, flash has the potential to wear out after tens (or hundreds) of thousands of write cycles.

This characterization, however, is too simplistic. A flash device that is rated at 100,000 write cycles, for example, can write 100,000 times to every single (memory) cell within the device. In other words, the device doesn't write to the same cell over and over again but spreads out the writes over many different cells. This is achieved through wear leveling which is carried out by the SSD's controller.

This would make it virtually impossible to wear out a flash chip. A pattern could be perpetually repeated in which a 64GB SSD is completely filled with data, erased, filled again, then erased again every hour of every day for years, and the user still wouldn't reach the theoretical write limit.


The quote above was posted at the CORSAIR forum.

[RobertM]

AnandTech did an analysis showing that the lifespan of a newer Samsung 128GB SSD (TLC type) would be about 10yrs at 10GB average read/write per day. Of course, 10GB/day isn't a lot for people in this forum ;)

An interesting table:

SLC MLC TLC
Bits per Cell 1 2 3
P/E Cycles (2Xnm) 100,000 3,000 1,000


As the technology has gotten smaller and cheaper the P/E (Program/Erase) cycles have dropped substantially. Based on these numbers it looks like the original SLC type probably could be considered to last virtually forever.

[gonca]

I agree that SSDs seem to have a limited number of write cycles, and deletes are a variety of writing. The problem is that one source says one thing and a different source says something else. As I stated previously though, I am in process of converting my DVD collection to MKV with BD-RB and I am continuously loading my source SSD and then converting to my output SSD. This is followed by a complete delete of the input drive and moving of the MKVs to an array. My input SSD sees probably 400 GB, including the BDs I am converting, per week. My output drive sees probably 150 GB. I have been doing this for quite a while and so far all is good. Used to do the DVDs with something else but I didn't like the results so I am redoing it all the DVDs again with BD_RB.

Model : OCZ VERTEX-PLUS
Firmware : 3.55
Serial Number : 2Z9Y07586G5800347418
Disk Size : 240.0 GB (8.4/137.4/240.0)
Buffer Size : >= 32767 KB
Queue Depth : 32
# of Sectors : 468862128
Rotation Rate : ---- (SSD)
Interface : Serial ATA
Major Version : ATA8-ACS
Minor Version : ----
Transfer Mode : SATA/300
Power On Hours : 2088 hours
Power On Count : 1141 count
Host Writes : 0 GB
Temparature : Unknown
Health Status : Good (100 %)
Features : S.M.A.R.T., 48bit LBA, NCQ, TRIM
APM Level : ----

This is from Crystal Disk info on one of my SSDs.

[blusky]

A lot of great info in this thread. Thanks to all. I know there is a lot of debate out there whether is is better to Raid 0 two SSD drives or Just keep them as separate disks.

I have found one review of the Samsung 840 Pro 128GB SSD in Raid 0 configuration which looks like it is the most comprehensive. I went through it and am in way over my head to determine if it is better in Raid 0 config or as a single drive.
Here is the link , hXXp://www.rwlabs.com/article.php?cat=&id=762&pagenumber=1 . If anyone would like to take a look at this and let me know what it all means, the bottom line, I would appreciate it.

[RobertM]

From their summary:

HD Tach showed our 840 Pro to have killer burst performance and incredible sequential read/write performance that scales perfectly; giving us exactly double Samsung’s specified single drive performance.

So the RAID 0 array is twice as fast as the single drives. I should think that this makes your decision relatively easy.

[blusky]

From their summary:



So the RAID 0 array is twice as fast as the single drives. I should think that this makes your decision relatively easy.

Yes I was already headed in that direction but there is so much conflicting information out there sometimes makes the choice a bit difficult. I figure if I am spending the money on this computer might as well set it up so it can preform in the best way possible.

Thanks for your help, taking the time to look at the link and for giving great advice. :)

[steptoe]

Just an update, found this while reading about Paint.net I use for a quick free editor when I don't need to use Photoshop/LightRoom. The guy who writes Paint.net has built this system and the sheer grunt it provides when compiling he says is immense, so I assume the same could also apply to video encoding

Two Xeon E5-2687W running on an ASUS server based motherboard with a maximum 256GB DDR-3, 14 very fast SATA port, 6 which are extremely fast. Upto 4 GFX cards. So you end up with a possible 256GB memory running upto 32 threads at the same time

This graph shows the possible speed is about 56% faster than i7 system you are building

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+E5-2687W+%40+3.10GHz&id=1222&cpuCount=2


So, if money really is no object but you want speed for a budget, the Intel i7 can do it running at 5ghz, but for the immense grunt the twin CPU system provides then I'd dig very deep and buy this. But then again if I had over $3000 to spend on the desktop I may even look into building a dual tower system and set up an encoding farm for two Intel i7's desktops running flat out overclocked to 5ghz each then you can see some serious encoding speeds

The twin CPU system will easily run games as well without breaking into a sweat, but the extra cores won't come in until software supports it. Apparently most games only support upto 4 cores as most gaming systems are quad core. With the GFX card you want and big memory then huge resolutions will easily be managed. Assuming you use a gaming monitor of at least 24" your son will have a ball with a good quality 5.1 or even 7.1 surround sound system. But I've seen people running gaming systems on 50" or even 60" LED which is a bit extreme



But, I don't know if BD-RB or x264 supports shared encoding across multiple workstations, so sheer grunt on an individual desktop seems the only way

[blusky]

Just an update, found this while reading about Paint.net I use for a quick free editor when I don't need to use Photoshop/LightRoom. The guy who writes Paint.net has built this system and the sheer grunt it provides when compiling he says is immense, so I assume the same could also apply to video encoding

Two Xeon E5-2687W running on an ASUS server based motherboard with a maximum 256GB DDR-3, 14 very fast SATA port, 6 which are extremely fast. Upto 4 GFX cards. So you end up with a possible 256GB memory running upto 32 threads at the same time

This graph shows the possible speed is about 56% faster than i7 system you are building

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+E5-2687W+%40+3.10GHz&id=1222&cpuCount=2


So, if money really is no object but you want speed for a budget, the Intel i7 can do it running at 5ghz, but for the immense grunt the twin CPU system provides then I'd dig very deep and buy this. But then again if I had over $3000 to spend on the desktop I may even look into building a dual tower system and set up an encoding farm for two Intel i7's desktops running flat out overclocked to 5ghz each then you can see some serious encoding speeds

The twin CPU system will easily run games as well without breaking into a sweat, but the extra cores won't come in until software supports it. Apparently most games only support upto 4 cores as most gaming systems are quad core. With the GFX card you want and big memory then huge resolutions will easily be managed. Assuming you use a gaming monitor of at least 24" your son will have a ball with a good quality 5.1 or even 7.1 surround sound system. But I've seen people running gaming systems on 50" or even 60" LED which is a bit extreme



But, I don't know if BD-RB or x264 supports shared encoding across multiple workstations, so sheer grunt on an individual desktop seems the only way

Thanks for the info Steptoe. Interesting concept. Unfortunately money is not infinite and the reason I even spent this much was because for the last 10 years I saved by buying older used Pc's to play with. So I guess you could say I splurged this time.
Still waiting on the Delivery of the replacement motherboard which I believe will arrive tomorrow. Hopefully I will have it setup in the next couple of days. Thanks for the info.

[blusky]

Here is an update. Finally resolved an issue with the motherboard and the computer is built. Still need to resolve some driver issues with the raid 0 configuration but should be done shortly and ready to give BD Rebuilder a try.

Was not easy for me since I had such limited exposure to things like SSD's and the latest CPU's but with a little help from some forums I was able to get it done. The hardware is as I posted in the first post. I would like to include some Pics but the Pics are to large a file even when zipped.

[QBhd]

You could always use Photo Bucket to host your pics. I find it very useful since it automatically resizes files and makes then more forum friendly... here is an example:

http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz123/QB_the_Slayer/Computer/QBs-6th-Toy/SDC13889.jpg

(BTW that's my beast, The Monster HTPC... I need to get some new pics since I now have an H80i)

QB

[blusky]

You could always use Photo Bucket to host your pics. I find it very useful since it automatically resizes files and makes then more forum friendly... here is an example:

http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz123/QB_the_Slayer/Computer/QBs-6th-Toy/SDC13889.jpg

(BTW that's my beast, The Monster HTPC... I need to get some new pics since I now have an H80i)

QB

wow, very nice QBhd! I will give it a try.

[blusky]

ok , here goes:

http://http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a605/blusky1980/DSCF1994_zps905b7f43.jpg (http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/blusky1980/media/DSCF1994_zps905b7f43.jpg.html)

http://http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a605/blusky1980/DSCF1996_zps366dda19.jpg (http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/blusky1980/media/DSCF1996_zps366dda19.jpg.html)

http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a605/blusky1980/DSCF1997_zpsfb2d09fc.jpg (http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/blusky1980/media/DSCF1997_zpsfb2d09fc.jpg.html)


http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a605/blusky1980/as-ssd-benchIntelRaid0Vol42520135-36-53PM_zpseafe4372.png (http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/blusky1980/media/as-ssd-benchIntelRaid0Vol42520135-36-53PM_zpseafe4372.png.html)


http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a605/blusky1980/as-ssd-benchSamsungSSD84042520135-38-29PM_zps63c03da0.png (http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/blusky1980/media/as-ssd-benchSamsungSSD84042520135-38-29PM_zps63c03da0.png.html)

hope I did that correctly. Almost finished optimizing for speed, then I will give BD Rebuilder a try.